Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Master_Vega 01-24-08, 08:45 PM	Note: Truestrike and other magical enhancements (including magic items) do not aid in hitting specific areas of the body. This is because the spell homes in on the target's lifeforce (in the case of living creatures) or magical binding (in the case of constructs and undead), and therefore only aid in the general landing of shots. An attacker initiating a called shot takes a full-round action doing so. A called shot that exceeds the target's normal AC, but misses that of the targeted body part, hits and deals damage normally. When a character is struck by a called shot, the damage must exceed the target's constitution score or there is no special effect. Even when the target's constitution score is exceeded, it is entitled to a fortitude save (15+1/2 damage) to prevent the special effect. With that out of the way, here are the specifics: The Torso in general is not a called area, as that is where your character should normally be aiming. Larger body parts: -10 to the attacker's attack roll. List of Larger Body parts and their effects: Legs: Half movement speed; half again if the other leg is effected. Arms: -1 to all strength and dexterity checks using the arm. If both arms are affected, the penalty is cumulative. Smaller body parts: -15 to the attackers attack roll. Hand: Reflex save of the same DC as the fortitude save or drops what is held. -2 to all strength and dexterity checks using that hand. If both hands are effected, the penalty is cumulative. Feet: Reflex save of the same DC as the fortitude save or falls over. Same penalty as legs. Head: Drops to -1HP and begins bleeding out. (Special: If non-lethal damage is dealt, target is instead knocked unconscious.) Minuscule body parts -20 to attackers attack roll. Eye: D2 (Blindness/instant death.) Honorable mention: -15 to hit Groin: Target flies into a rage and beats the living crap out of you; pukes after adrenaline rush ends. Other targets (organs, which will go under minuscule body parts) and their effects will be added later. Any thoughts?
Asurya 01-25-08, 09:30 AM	-15 to hit, damage must overcome target's Con, and target must fail a Fort save (I suggest regular prep. strike with Con-damaging poison): but the head shot is pretty mean! aside from that, I find -10 is a bit tough just to hit evident parts. I mean: take an average soldier with a breastplate (sturdy material covering the torso, forearms and lower-leg, but nothing else) => the thigh shoud be an obvious taget : undefended and potentially lethal (femoral) another thing: how do the precision damage play with these rules (SA, SS, Skirmish)? Last thing, I don't understand the 'NOTE': is it that even with True Strike cast, my swing at the head is BAB+Str-15?? (assuming no feat adding to the atk roll, such as Focus, Finesse, PA)
UAMDB 01-25-08, 10:58 AM	The question becomes, why attack the feet when the head shot is insta-death. Also if the party comes across something that is hard to hit due to high AC, then most likely the party will have everything be a called shot. After all whats the difference between needing a 19-20 to hit or a 20 to hit when the 20 has a good chance of killing it with one blow. Also does this effect undead? They have no Con score so does ever called shot effect them or are they immune to them?
Master_Vega 01-25-08, 01:00 PM	-15 to hit, damage must overcome target's Con, and target must fail a Fort save (I suggest regular prep. strike with Con-damaging poison): but the head shot is pretty mean! But the headshot should be mean, though, right? Also, I'm not sure Con-effecting poisons should effect the Con score for the purpose of breaking bones (which would affect the headshot)... I just don't see a poison weakening bones that fast. What do you think? aside from that, I find -10 is a bit tough just to hit evident parts. I mean: take an average soldier with a breastplate (sturdy material covering the torso, forearms and lower-leg, but nothing else) => the thigh shoud be an obvious taget : undefended and potentially lethal (femoral) What would you suggest? I'm trying to make rules that put called shots out there, but make them unlikely to break the game. another thing: how do the precision damage play with these rules (SA, SS, Skirmish)? Hmm, I could be really cheap and say precision damage is already getting extra damage from called-shot-like precision, but that opens up the argument of "Do rogues get a bonus on called shots, then?" Since I would classify the Called Shot damage as critical damage, and SA, SS, and Skirmish (and other precision damage) would not contribute to overcoming the constitution modifier, or the fortitude save. Last thing, I don't understand the 'NOTE': is it that even with True Strike cast, my swing at the head is BAB+Str-15?? (assuming no feat adding to the atk roll, such as Focus, Finesse, PA) That is correct. I don't believe that is too harsh, especially because, if True Strike were to affect the shot, then called shots would be far too easy. I would, however, advise using (a limited supply of) action points in a game with these called shot rules. That way, when the characters really need a hit, they can gain an extra 1d6 to their attack roll on a called shot. UAMDB -- IRL, there isn't really a reason to swing for the feet instead of the head, if you're trying to kill the guy. You can cut the guy's legs out from under him to make him an easier target, you would swing for his whole leg as his feet are harder to reach, and you'll achieve a similar effect with a good hit to the legs (I know I gave the feet a different effect. I might change that.) I just statted a foot-shot incase someone really wanted to hit an opponent in the foot (comedic effect?) That depends entirely on whether or not your zombies (or und need their head. RE style zombies do, Halo's flood don't (though they need the infection form lodged in the chest to function), but I don't see why a zombie animated by magic would need its brain to function. So! In my normal campaigns, no, these rules would not effect zombies. Thank you for reading and replying! :D
Dog_O_War 01-26-08, 12:31 PM	D&D already has a called shot system; it's called special abilities. Maybe offer feats like hamstring to better render called shots worth-while. The system you currently have is a "spray and pray" system, as only a natural 20 will hit with all those penalties. offer feats that can be taken like... Broken knuckles, Bleeding palms [GENERAL] Prerequisite: BAB +6, Wis 13 Benefit: you bludgeon or slash at your opponents' hand in an attempt to disable his fighting ability. Make an attack roll as a standard action with a -2 penalty; if you hit deal damage as normal. in addition, your opponent must make a will save DC: 10 or drop what he is holding in that hand (a locked guantlet and similar prevents this), and takes a -2 penalty to attack and damage rolls with that hand/limb for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt (this effect is in addition to the will save). Multiple strikes do not stack. Special: If a successful critical strike is rolled, instead of dealing double damage, you may severe/destroy the limb(hand) if your opponent does not make a reflex save equal to 10+damage dealt. Stuff like this mirrors the system already in place for target specific hits.
Asurya 01-28-08, 09:28 AM	But the headshot should be mean, though, right? Also, I'm not sure Con-effecting poisons should effect the Con score for the purpose of breaking bones (which would affect the headshot)... I just don't see a poison weakening bones that fast. What do you think? Ok I'll elaborate: Con-damaging poison will make your life easier because, if the target looses its first save, it will give you 2 thing: - a lesser cap to overcome (the Con score now reduced) and - a higher change the target will fail his Fort save (since Con directly impact Fort) I agree that poison should not make the bones more brittle, but, mechanically that's just what will happen with your system (partly because DnD does not define any mechanics for the strength of someone's bones).
Krusk 01-28-08, 11:17 AM	Overall this looks just like most other called shots systems, just harder to succeed on the called shot. It still has the same problems -why would you even not do a called shot head? for the instant kill?- That said this has some potential. First change I would make, no auto hit on a nat 20. Called shots are already critical, and as such, by making a called shot you are gaurenteed a critical hit. Instead of extra damage on the critical hit, you do one of the following effects. Second change- take out that bit about the torso is where you should be aiming. If this were true, people would wear armor that looks a lot like the sorcerer in the PBH except plate. While leaving the rest of their body exposed. -ignoring some of the chainmail bikinis shown in the art- Third change- Legs should reduce movement speed by 1/X where X equals the number of legs the creature has. Fourth- Arms- just make it a cumulative -1 penalty to all str, and dex checks. Each time they are hit they take another -1. Afterall eventually you can hack the arm off or dislocate it. 5- add a disclaimer that all effects end as soon as magical healing is applied. 6-change head. Any instant kill is exactly what is ruins these. I would change it to the Same penalty as hitting an eye, with the penalty being something such as stunned for remainder of the round. This is still usually fatal, but not always. 7- feet should specify falls prone, not over. Not a big deal though, just keeps terms the same. 8- i might even get rid of full round action to do them, and instead say you make one attack at your hgihest BAB this round. How I would change it. I would also consider making them into feats. Called shot, allows targeting larger parts. Improved allows small parts. and greater allows miniscule parts, which now include head.
Master_Vega 01-28-08, 12:05 PM	But the headshot should be mean, though, right? Also, I'm not sure Con-effecting poisons should effect the Con score for the purpose of breaking bones (which would affect the headshot)... I just don't see a poison weakening bones that fast. What do you think? Ok I'll elaborate: Con-damaging poison will make your life easier because, if the target looses its first save, it will give you 2 thing: - a lesser cap to overcome (the Con score now reduced) and - a higher change the target will fail his Fort save (since Con directly impact Fort) I agree that poison should not make the bones more brittle, but, mechanically that's just what will happen with your system (partly because DnD does not define any mechanics for the strength of someone's bones). I understand that con-affecting poison would weaken the con-score and fortitude save. What I was saying is that I might add to the houserule that called shots involving breaking bones have to overcome the character's normal maximum con score. Did you have another solution? :P Krusk -- I was pretty sure the full-round-action and high attack penalties were pretty potent reasons to reserve called shot attacks for when they need to happen, or when they are likely to happen. I could just say they are a standard action, like the maneuvers in the ToB, so that a character cannot make four called shots in a round. That said, does it really need to be harder to hit? -10 to -20 on your attack, and magic does not affect the accuracy of the hit at all... are called shots still so appealing that you would use them every time? As for the torso being the standard place to aim, I don't really see the problem. The torso is the center of the target, and the largest single target. In the very least, this is where ranged fighters should always be aiming. I agree with your third critique. That was an oversight on my part. Thanks! 4. Cumulative as opposed to...? 5. Good point, though it doesn't seem right to allow cure minor wounds to repair a hacked-off leg. It'll add a bit more book keeping, but perhaps the spell should have to repair the number of HP damage that did a limb in? 6. If we're going to change the effect to stunned, it better be more lethal than a single round (in my games, PCs tend to leave stunned enemies alone in favor of neutralizing the guy who's actually shooting/hitting/blasting them.) How about this: roll the weapon's damage dice (up to two) again, but do not add strength or any other modifiers; the target stays stunned for a number of rounds equal to half the total number, rounded down (minimum of one). This way you're not just taking him out of the battle for a round; he's actually REALLY messed up because a big metal object just hit him in the face. 7. Heh, I'll change the wording on that soon as I edit the first post. 8. Kinda already covered this. I'm thinking feats are a good idea, but I don't like barring players for trying even without the feat. Perhaps have it like Sunder, they can do it, but they draw an AoO, and they have a penalty to the hit (right?). Thank you for the critiques! I'd like to see your new counterpoints so we can make this a good system. :P
Krusk 01-28-08, 04:29 PM	lots of things...are called shots still so appealing that you would use them every time? yes they are. especially against opponents who i can only hit on a 20 anyway. Why not take a -20 to hit, and go for the instant kill. Or think about this, the guy has 800 hp. I am a fighter capable of dealing 50~ damage a round. why not go for an instant kill. i could stand here and hack at him all day long, but if he has any way to heal i am counter productive. How about i just club him, and take my 1 out of 20 swings to kill him instantly. As for the torso being the standard place to aim, I don't really see the problem. The torso is the center of the target, and the largest single target. In the very least, this is where ranged fighters should always be aiming. Maybe for archers, but think about that. If you were fighting a guy who has a 5 inch thick steel plate on his torso, and is pantsless/helmless/arm gaurdless are you really going to aim at his torso? You aim at his weak spots. 4. Cumulative as opposed to...? I was under the impression it could only be done twice -once for each arm- i was saying it can be done limitless times. 5. Good point, though it doesn't seem right to allow cure minor wounds to repair a hacked-off leg. It'll add a bit more book keeping, but perhaps the spell should have to repair the number of HP damage that did a limb in? Or simply say it needs the spell that restores severed limbs. One exists, i just dont remember it. that seems like it would screw the players over a ton especially at early levels though. 6. If we're going to change the effect to stunned, it better be more lethal than a single round (in my games, PCs tend to leave stunned enemies alone in favor of neutralizing the guy who's actually shooting/hitting/blasting them.) How about this: roll the weapon's damage dice (up to two) again, but do not add strength or any other modifiers; the target stays stunned for a number of rounds equal to half the total number, rounded down (minimum of one). This way you're not just taking him out of the battle for a round; he's actually REALLY messed up because a big metal object just hit him in the face. Stunning is a really lethal effect in most games. the opponent is now helpless, meaning the wizard can walk up and slit the throat after the fighter or rogue stuns the enemy. Maybe 1d4 rounds of stun, or 1d4+str mod. I'm thinking feats are a good idea, but I don't like barring players for trying even without the feat. Perhaps have it like Sunder, they can do it, but they draw an AoO, and they have a penalty to the hit (right?). I would assign something like an AoO, and maybe even an additional -4. -so people with very high AC still consider taking the feat.
Rustmonster 01-28-08, 05:38 PM	Stunning is a really lethal effect in most games. the opponent is now helpless, meaning the wizard can walk up and slit the throat after the fighter or rogue stuns the enemy. Maybe 1d4 rounds of stun, or 1d4+str mod. You arn't helpless while stunned. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm
Master_Vega 01-28-08, 05:44 PM	yes they are. especially against opponents who i can only hit on a 20 anyway. Why not take a -20 to hit, and go for the instant kill. Or think about this, the guy has 800 hp. I am a fighter capable of dealing 50~ damage a round. why not go for an instant kill. i could stand here and hack at him all day long, but if he has any way to heal i am counter productive. How about i just club him, and take my 1 out of 20 swings to kill him instantly. If you're the kind of DM who enjoys sending impossibly high AC monsters at his players, then I guess this would be a problem for you. I'd find such an encounter frustrating, but then I never have single-monster/character encounters. While the fighter takes his standard action in hopes of scoring a twenty, the big boss's not-so-shabby minions are ripping him to pieces. I don't think you should be able to score a critical while using a called shot, though; you're already hitting a weak point. If you think it is necessary to deny the 20 auto-hit, then I suppose that could be an optional rule for this houserule. Maybe for archers, but think about that. If you were fighting a guy who has a 5 inch thick steel plate on his torso, and is pantsless/helmless/arm gaurdless are you really going to aim at his torso? You aim at his weak spots. This is why I throw the DMG at people who want to dress their characters in chainmail bikinis. ;) I do see what you're saying, though. I was under the impression it could only be done twice -once for each arm- i was saying it can be done limitless times. Oversight on my part. I'll edit that later. Thank you. Or simply say it needs the spell that restores severed limbs. One exists, i just dont remember it. that seems like it would screw the players over a ton especially at early levels though. I think the easiest low-level option, without making lost limbs a thing to take lightheartedly, is to use that spell, or restore the HP dealt to the limb... Or you could add the property that, if a character is healed over half-health while his limbs are held to their stumps, all limbs are re-attached. Stunning is a really lethal effect in most games. the opponent is now helpless, meaning the wizard can walk up and slit the throat after the fighter or rogue stuns the enemy. Maybe 1d4 rounds of stun, or 1d4+str mod. I don't have my book out, but are you coup-de-grace-able while stunned? (Thanks, Rustmonster) I've actually only been a player in games where stunning became an issue, and in those games stunned characters were quickly guarded, or were not worth the effort to kill at the moment (again, the blasting enemy was our main concern. We could kill the piddly stunned-character easily enough.) I would assign something like an AoO, and maybe even an additional -4. -so people with very high AC still consider taking the feat. Dog_of_War was saying that these are "spray and pray" rules, and that it's nearly impossible to hit any of these numbers without magic. There should probably be some feats (fighter feats?) that allow further specialization, and even bonuses against particular targets... perhaps an expansion of Preferred Enemy? Thanks again!
Krusk 01-28-08, 07:16 PM	You arn't helpless while stunned. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm Well in that case 100% my bad. i still like the idea of 1d4+str mod or Xd4 rounds of stunned though. - not saying you send impossibly high AC monsters. But lets say the wizard is level 1, and has run out of spells. Now he simlpy whips out the crossbow and attempts headshots all day long. - for healing, i like the idea of the cure spell must be put on the limb. but then what about cure minor wounds. -or is this just more of an incentive to take that spell? - as for spray and pray, I just did calculations vs a level 1 fighter and a goblin. typical 1st level fight. He seems to be right. Maybe reduce the penalties to a -5 -10 and -20 respectivly?
Master_Vega 01-29-08, 11:00 AM	I might reduce the attack penalties. If I do that, it would make more sense to get rid of the auto-hit on twenty as the shots will already be likely enough (except for the eye-shots... There has to be a reason to eye-shot... >_> )
Krusk 01-29-08, 03:37 PM	Here is an idea im just throwing out there. roll to hit as normal. If you crit depending on your crit modifier, you gain an additional effect. If you have x2 you bump up one catagory. x3 bump up two. x4 bump up a third. Now you have to create a few more crit locations, but that is ok and not too much work. arm, hand, finger, wrist Arm as normal. Hand as normal. Finger- permanent loss of finger use, leaving a -2 penalty to str and dex checks until the finger is restored. Wrist- target begins to bleed. deals X damage over a period of time. For the 4 catagories give it something like large -5 to hit medium -10 to hit small -15 to hit tiny -20 to hit. Anything with auto kill as a possible chane needs to be under tiny. - also im not sure how much i like my finger and wrist effects, so feel free to change them. just the first things off the top of my head.
Dog_O_War 01-29-08, 04:05 PM	With penalties like that you might as well play Rifts, where the bonuses and penalties don't matter.
Krusk 01-29-08, 04:23 PM	With penalties like that you might as well play Rifts, where the bonuses and penalties don't matter. As fun as rifts is, it dosn't make for a good fantasy setting. Also the rules are horrible. Which bonuses and penalties dont matter in this system? there are a few sitting around.
Dog_O_War 01-30-08, 11:32 AM	As fun as rifts is, it dosn't make for a good fantasy setting. Also the rules are horrible. Which bonuses and penalties dont matter in this system? there are a few sitting around. Well, with a -10 to attack, even a 10th level character has to roll a 20. That means that basically only a 20th level character is going to be called shotting stuff; Since everything in need of an auto-kill will generally have heads that qualify as atleast medium (colossal dragons for example), the DM will find that this system most certainly does not work to the advantage of the game. DM "Okay guys, then end of this campaign is here; time for the climatic battle versus the evil red dragon!" Player 1 "Robbin' DeGa-Me, fighter extrodinare called-shots his head for the auto kill. Hey! I hit!" DM:weep: " You win.:mad: " Auto-kills rob the game. I'm not against called shots, but a penalties system does not work (well) for D&D. It should be more of a technique-thing to know how to properly disable an opponent; this is how the game already adjudicates called shots, and I believe you'd be better off following that system. Maybe offer a cross-class skill system, where every full rank gives access to a new type of attack (like speak language). This is very accurate for skilled characters like the rogue, since they already have percision-based abilities and are the ones most likely to have more. This makes it so everyone can benefit if they so choose, not just the high-attack bonus characters. That's what I suggest.
Krusk 01-30-08, 02:49 PM	Well, with a -10 to attack, even a 10th level character has to roll a 20. That means that basically only a 20th level character is going to be called shotting stuff; Auto-kills rob the game. I'm not against called shots, but a penalties system does not work (well) for D&D. It should be more of a technique-thing to know how to properly disable an opponent; this is how the game already adjudicates called shots, and I believe you'd be better off following that system. Maybe offer a cross-class skill system, where every full rank gives access to a new type of attack (like speak language). This is very accurate for skilled characters like the rogue, since they already have percision-based abilities and are the ones most likely to have more. This makes it so everyone can benefit if they so choose, not just the high-attack bonus characters. 1, not exactly sure what you mean again. with a -10 even a tenth level character needs to roll a 20? to do what, get a net result of 10? A tehth level fighter's BAB will cancel out the penalty. I dont really think its that big a deal, especially with the new numbers i put forward in my earlier post. It is like power attack but with an adde deffect instead of damage. 2, I am very against auto kills as well. A penalties system works fine in d20 systems. Look at any spell in the game that gives a penalty. It isn't horrible, and it generally ins't amazingly over powered. 3- I like that idea, and if i were to build a called shot system, or ever put one in my games I might include it.
Jagyr Ebonwood 01-30-08, 03:11 PM	In my games, I prefer to have critical hits = called shots. If a PC scores a crit, they can choose normal crit damage (x2 for most weapons), or instead do normal x1 damage and add something special such as injuring a hand to give -2 to attacks. This idea is largely inspired by GameMastery's Critical Hit Deck. Besides, shouldn't you be aiming for a vital area with every attack? Most of the time your shot is spoiled slightly by your opponent's movement or armor or somesuch, and the devastating blow you were hoping for becomes more glancing (ie. normal damage). However, at least 5% of the time (nat 20) you hit the vital area you were aiming for (critical threat) and, if you're lucky, you hit it in a fashion that allows you to do more damage (crit confirmation).
Dog_O_War 01-30-08, 03:36 PM	Here is an idea im just throwing out there. roll to hit as normal. If you crit depending on your crit modifier, you gain an additional effect. If you have x2 you bump up one catagory. x3 bump up two. x4 bump up a third. Now you have to create a few more crit locations, but that is ok and not too much work. arm, hand, finger, wrist Arm as normal. Hand as normal. Finger- permanent loss of finger use, leaving a -2 penalty to str and dex checks until the finger is restored. Wrist- target begins to bleed. deals X damage over a period of time. For the 4 catagories give it something like large -5 to hit medium -10 to hit small -15 to hit tiny -20 to hit. Anything with auto kill as a possible chane needs to be under tiny. - also im not sure how much i like my finger and wrist effects, so feel free to change them. just the first things off the top of my head. This is your system compared to power attack though. Attacking the wrist = -20 to hit for normal damage + bleed (1 or 2 per round I assume) Versus power attack for the full 10 points at tenth = normal weapon damage +10-20 (or 5-20 rounds of bleeding, depending on 1-2 per round). attacking the finger = -20 to attack for -2 str and dex (-1 AC, ranged attack, -1 melee attack and damage) versus not taking the penalty = foe slain in 5-10 rounds (the length of a typical combat). master_vegas' system posted in the OP is even more painful to perform. Basically the benefits will never out-weigh the penalties with these systems, as generally only an auto-kill is worth the penalties taken. And even then, jacking true-strike to prevent players from auto-killing monsters is yet another part of why no one will us the system. There is no real benefit to doing any of this. Generally people with crazy-high attack bonuses usually have strength behind them, or are dex-based and would rather sack their attack bonus to range penalties. The system D&D currently uses is more advantageous; I'd use that as the ground work to build off of.
Krusk 01-30-08, 08:11 PM	i put finger in the 3rd catagory, which i gave a -15 to hit. Not 20. I also said i did not like those effects, but was throwing out ideas.
Dog_O_War 01-31-08, 04:25 PM	i put finger in the 3rd catagory, which i gave a -15 to hit. Not 20. I also said i did not like those effects, but was throwing out ideas. Still, that's a pretty harsh penalty at any level. Generally AC's are within 5 of a fighter's attack bonus (possibly equal to or as much as 10 below depending on how crap/optimized he is). That means only a 20th level full BAB character could use these attacks with any reasonable amount of success. Are you familiar with the hit locations of the game called deadlands? basically the body is devided up into 4 locations, with sub-locations within those categories. 20: headshot (gives bonus damage dice in deadlands) 15-19: upper guts (body shot) 11-14: arms (even is left side, odd is right; 11 and 12 are the "hands") 10: gizzards ( body shot; gives bonus damage die in deadlands) 5-9: lower guts (body shot) 1-4: legs (even is left side, odd is right; 1 and 2 are the "feet") These locations are rolled randomly when attacking, with being in melee combat offering a +2 to the location roll (if you rolled a 3 it would count as 5 (whether you wanted it to or not)). If a spot would be in cover in deadlands, that cover is instead impacted. The deadlands system offers the best location specific gameplay I've seen to date. While the system itself is truely unique, this locations table is used when called shots are not actively made (a "critical" in deadlands is either a gizzard or headshot. Both have strict penalties (the gizzard being the hardest to hit because it includes stuff like the heart, even though it is not the most vunerable because certain monsters can only be killed with a specific heart shot) because this is how you deal more damage, or disable limbs). Anyways, that system uses a location chart all the time; I believe this it what you desire for a game involving called shots, as sometimes "stuff" can just happen on a regular roll as well.