Another idea for healing spells.. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Another idea for healing spells.. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JiobiValen
08-04-06, 05:59 AM I just kind of came up with an idea for reworking the way healing spells.. well work. I think it may help solve the problem thats been going around with healing spells being too "unrealistic".

Well its simple really, for every level of the spell it either heals 5hp or 15% of a characters max hp, whichever is more.

So cure moderate wounds would either heal 10hp or 30% of the characters max hp.

This would have the effect of still being powerful enough for low level characters while healing a decent amount of hit points for high level characters, I haven't fully worked it out yet but what do you think?
shadow_kras
08-04-06, 08:35 AM I just kind of came up with an idea for reworking the way healing spells.. well work. I think it may help solve the problem thats been going around with healing spells being too "unrealistic".
How unrealistic you think they are?
You mean that healing spells doesnt heal enough hp to be worth the spell slot?
Or that they heal too much hp and need a certain balance?

1d8+1 at lv1 is fine for me, it will heal 2-9 HP (average of 5, rounded down).
2d8+3 will heal 5-19 (average of 12)
3d8+5 will heal 8-28 (average of 18)
4d8+7 will heal 11-39 (average of 25)
And Heal, will heal 90 HP when you first take it.

I dont see a weak point in that, but there is some things you could do to make it more realistic:

1) You could define that every d8 would be a 4 or 5 automatically without need to roll the dices. (assuming 5 bellow...)
Light = 6 HP
Moderate = 13 HP
Serious = 20 HP
Critical = 27 HP
That would be very close to the average heal for the current healing system...

2) You could make the caster lv worth a little more.
Light = 1x caster lv (still 1d8+1, average 5)
Moderate = 2x caster lv (2d8+6 now, average 15)
Serious = 3x caster lv (3d8+15, average 28)
Critical = 4x caster lv (4d8+28, average 46)

How that sounds for you? It will for sure be worth more than it is right now.

Put in mind that these values were using the minimum caster lv to cast these spells (1, 3, 5 and 7), so remember that these values WILL increase as the caster get some more lvs...
Arcade
08-04-06, 10:45 AM Cure light wounds always gets play at higher levels since it has the best hit point to gold piece heal ratio when placed inside a wand. With your system, it is even better since a character is guarunteed to be at full hit points after 6 or 7 cure light wounds. That's 105 gold to go from dying to full hit points. Far too powerful.

Low level spells have their place, but just like sleep, charm person, and various other spells, they hit their useful limit once high level spells are available. Bull's Strength is less useful at higher levels once Belts of Giant Strength are available in the party. Some spells are always useful, like true strike.

I like the basic idea, but I think the implementation still needs work.
JiobiValen
08-04-06, 12:36 PM Ah well you see, its mostly just to fix the annoyance of having a spell once heal you then at higher levels it won't. I was trying to get the percentage of hp healed more uniform.

Arcade, one way to prevent healing up to full would be to have a cap on the spell based on your caster level. For example cure light wounds would heal 5hp or 15% of your max hp (Max of 5hp per caster level). This alone should fix the item problem since a cure light wounds wand at that price is only 1st caster level if I remember right. How does that sound?

And remember, this idea just sort of came out on nowhere, so i'm not claiming it to be even nearly complete.
Arcade
08-05-06, 03:37 PM That definitely solves the wand problem. It's also a good way to add a caster level bonus to this spell since the caster level bonus right now is unexciting.
Seldriss
08-06-06, 01:55 PM As an alternative, you can also give to healers an option to get a regenerative effect, "heal over time" style...
The spell then heals 1HP per spell level for a duration in rounds equal to the spell level + healer's level.
The amount of healing is inferior to the flat one time heal, but the overtime effect can help a lot in some situations. It's up to the healer to choose what version he wants to use.

Examples, for a level 7 cleric :
Cure Light Wounds = 1HP for 8 rounds (1+7)
Cure Moderate Wounds = 2HP for 9 rounds (2+7)
Cure Serious Wounds = 3HP for 10 rounds (3+7)
Cure Critical Wounds = 4HP for 11 rounds (4+7)

Personnally, using Spell Points (Unearthed Arcana), I state that healing spells cast this way ask for more spell points, as of an higher level spell. So in the above example, CSW would cost 7SP and not 5.
But clerics with the Healing domain don't have to pay for this extra.

As another option, you can create variant heal over time spells.
Shinryouga
08-06-06, 05:50 PM On a purely mechanical level, here is an interesting tangent to explain why a cure light wounds "cures" less of the damage dealt to a level 1 target than a level 20.

Cure spells allow will saves. And while you may be willing to be healed, its still working upon the body itself, which brings the effect into the realm of fortitude. Imagine for a moment that every cure spell you receive prompts an invisible, involuntary fortitude save. (I realize you can voluntarility fail saves, and I beleive that with concious choices like will and reflex, but fort seems too involuntary in most cases to be voluntariliy failed)

So, the low level average con fighter "makes" his phantom fortitude save, and the cure light wounds heals his wounds proportionally based on how good his save was. (Level 1: 1d8+1 of 10HP: 20 to 90%) This can be used to explain the variance of the cure spells (1d8, 2d8 and so on). At higher levels, the fighter's saves are better (great fort, con boost through item and level up), so his proportional healing goes down. (Level 20: 1d8+1 of 200HP: 1 to 4.5%)

Extreme example, hope this makes sense, it doesn't change anything mechanically, but it gives an interesting "why it works the way it does" explanation.
Goblinchaser
08-09-06, 08:22 PM I found using the wounds and Vitality Points in the UA (with a few mods) to keep that Cure light wounds a viable option at higher levels. Since Vitality heals just like non-lethal in SRD, then the party can take a few hours rest as the sort through the remains of their latest victims, and recuperate a little bit. But when taking wound damage the Cure light is effective, and gives a boost to vitality as well.

Overall what you contend with is not the healing but the hit point system....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JiobiValen 08-04-06, 05:59 AM	I just kind of came up with an idea for reworking the way healing spells.. well work. I think it may help solve the problem thats been going around with healing spells being too "unrealistic". Well its simple really, for every level of the spell it either heals 5hp or 15% of a characters max hp, whichever is more. So cure moderate wounds would either heal 10hp or 30% of the characters max hp. This would have the effect of still being powerful enough for low level characters while healing a decent amount of hit points for high level characters, I haven't fully worked it out yet but what do you think?
shadow_kras 08-04-06, 08:35 AM	I just kind of came up with an idea for reworking the way healing spells.. well work. I think it may help solve the problem thats been going around with healing spells being too "unrealistic". How unrealistic you think they are? You mean that healing spells doesnt heal enough hp to be worth the spell slot? Or that they heal too much hp and need a certain balance? 1d8+1 at lv1 is fine for me, it will heal 2-9 HP (average of 5, rounded down). 2d8+3 will heal 5-19 (average of 12) 3d8+5 will heal 8-28 (average of 18) 4d8+7 will heal 11-39 (average of 25) And Heal, will heal 90 HP when you first take it. I dont see a weak point in that, but there is some things you could do to make it more realistic: 1) You could define that every d8 would be a 4 or 5 automatically without need to roll the dices. (assuming 5 bellow...) Light = 6 HP Moderate = 13 HP Serious = 20 HP Critical = 27 HP That would be very close to the average heal for the current healing system... 2) You could make the caster lv worth a little more. Light = 1x caster lv (still 1d8+1, average 5) Moderate = 2x caster lv (2d8+6 now, average 15) Serious = 3x caster lv (3d8+15, average 28) Critical = 4x caster lv (4d8+28, average 46) How that sounds for you? It will for sure be worth more than it is right now. Put in mind that these values were using the minimum caster lv to cast these spells (1, 3, 5 and 7), so remember that these values WILL increase as the caster get some more lvs...
Arcade 08-04-06, 10:45 AM	Cure light wounds always gets play at higher levels since it has the best hit point to gold piece heal ratio when placed inside a wand. With your system, it is even better since a character is guarunteed to be at full hit points after 6 or 7 cure light wounds. That's 105 gold to go from dying to full hit points. Far too powerful. Low level spells have their place, but just like sleep, charm person, and various other spells, they hit their useful limit once high level spells are available. Bull's Strength is less useful at higher levels once Belts of Giant Strength are available in the party. Some spells are always useful, like true strike. I like the basic idea, but I think the implementation still needs work.
JiobiValen 08-04-06, 12:36 PM	Ah well you see, its mostly just to fix the annoyance of having a spell once heal you then at higher levels it won't. I was trying to get the percentage of hp healed more uniform. Arcade, one way to prevent healing up to full would be to have a cap on the spell based on your caster level. For example cure light wounds would heal 5hp or 15% of your max hp (Max of 5hp per caster level). This alone should fix the item problem since a cure light wounds wand at that price is only 1st caster level if I remember right. How does that sound? And remember, this idea just sort of came out on nowhere, so i'm not claiming it to be even nearly complete.
Arcade 08-05-06, 03:37 PM	That definitely solves the wand problem. It's also a good way to add a caster level bonus to this spell since the caster level bonus right now is unexciting.
Seldriss 08-06-06, 01:55 PM	As an alternative, you can also give to healers an option to get a regenerative effect, "heal over time" style... The spell then heals 1HP per spell level for a duration in rounds equal to the spell level + healer's level. The amount of healing is inferior to the flat one time heal, but the overtime effect can help a lot in some situations. It's up to the healer to choose what version he wants to use. Examples, for a level 7 cleric : Cure Light Wounds = 1HP for 8 rounds (1+7) Cure Moderate Wounds = 2HP for 9 rounds (2+7) Cure Serious Wounds = 3HP for 10 rounds (3+7) Cure Critical Wounds = 4HP for 11 rounds (4+7) Personnally, using Spell Points (Unearthed Arcana), I state that healing spells cast this way ask for more spell points, as of an higher level spell. So in the above example, CSW would cost 7SP and not 5. But clerics with the Healing domain don't have to pay for this extra. As another option, you can create variant heal over time spells.
Shinryouga 08-06-06, 05:50 PM	On a purely mechanical level, here is an interesting tangent to explain why a cure light wounds "cures" less of the damage dealt to a level 1 target than a level 20. Cure spells allow will saves. And while you may be willing to be healed, its still working upon the body itself, which brings the effect into the realm of fortitude. Imagine for a moment that every cure spell you receive prompts an invisible, involuntary fortitude save. (I realize you can voluntarility fail saves, and I beleive that with concious choices like will and reflex, but fort seems too involuntary in most cases to be voluntariliy failed) So, the low level average con fighter "makes" his phantom fortitude save, and the cure light wounds heals his wounds proportionally based on how good his save was. (Level 1: 1d8+1 of 10HP: 20 to 90%) This can be used to explain the variance of the cure spells (1d8, 2d8 and so on). At higher levels, the fighter's saves are better (great fort, con boost through item and level up), so his proportional healing goes down. (Level 20: 1d8+1 of 200HP: 1 to 4.5%) Extreme example, hope this makes sense, it doesn't change anything mechanically, but it gives an interesting "why it works the way it does" explanation.
Goblinchaser 08-09-06, 08:22 PM	I found using the wounds and Vitality Points in the UA (with a few mods) to keep that Cure light wounds a viable option at higher levels. Since Vitality heals just like non-lethal in SRD, then the party can take a few hours rest as the sort through the remains of their latest victims, and recuperate a little bit. But when taking wound damage the Cure light is effective, and gives a boost to vitality as well. Overall what you contend with is not the healing but the hit point system....