Another LA thread .. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Another LA thread .. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_Ditto
02-27-07, 09:44 AM Hey everyone,

I was hoping to risk starting up yet another LA thread .. I've perused the forums and read over some of the older LA related threads, but nothing really touched on what I was hoping to ask here; so I hope you don't mind ... :D

I was looking over some LA templates/races in the MM last night, and got to thinking more about the LA buy-off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) method.

First question, I guess is how many people use it? How many people have had problems with it?

I've always liked it (as a player), but recently I've been looking at it more seriously as a DM, and I have a couple concerns.

Ok, fair enough - it seems to work just fine for a simple +1 LA race or such ... but I'm starting to wonder if it's the best thing for certain LA races and templates.

The one I was looking at that got me thinking, was the Half-Celestial.
It's a +4 LA. Which means you can start buying it off at level 12 ...

This is where I started thinking:

- The UA buy-off rules are based on the assumption that the LA is a handi-cap at low level, and not so much at higher level. That is, the cost (the LA) doesn't have much return on investment at higher level.

This seems to hold true for a +1 LA race ... the small bonuses it gives (ie darkvision, a couple stat bumps, maybe a 1/day spell-like) don't really make a difference at level 15 ... (for example).

I tend to agree with that much ...

However .. what about a race/template that "keeps on giving".

The Half-Celestial template - for example - keeps granting new spell-like abilities as your HD increase. Is it really fair to allow a buy-off of that LA (ie the cost) when you're still reaping the benefits??

I then realized that similar logic applies to Half-Fiend, Phrenic, Githyanki, Githzerai and Thri-kreen (to name a few) ...

So now I'm curious ...

Let's step down to a simple case.
Let's look at the Gith.
They are +2 LA (I'm working on memory here, please correct me if I got this wrong).

And yet, they keep getting psi-likes as their HD increase.

So at level 6, we buy-off 1 LA, and at level 9, we buy off the other.
At that point, we are (at most) 2 levels behind the party (and gaining quickly thanks to the XP rules) ... and we still have some new psi-likes to look forward to as we level (ie Plane Shift) ...

Am I just being overly paranoid on this?
Or is there an actual issue with this? Does the LA buy-off work well for static LA races/templates .. but not too well for dynamic ones?

What are your thoughts on this?
:confused:
spyone
02-27-07, 10:19 AM My general thought is that Level Adjustment was a decent idea, but it has been superceeded by a better one: Racial Levels.
I think you should make a version of the race to serve as the "base" that has been stripped of most of its abilitys to the poitn that it is balanced against other races, and would not require a LA. Then, create Levels the character can buy to gain the usual racial abilities.

I'd do something similar with the Half-celestial: Rather than automatically gaining new powers at higher levels, you'd have to take a level in Half Celestial that would grant you one Hit Die and some spell-like abilities. essentially, break the "half celestial" template into 4 sections, each with a LA of +1, and then take each of those as a class level, one at a time (and possably with a prerequisite like "Must have at least 10 Hit Dice to take this level).

But your reasoning seems sound: the "Buy off" was intended to cover packages that give you one time power: boost when you get it, but not really equal to a class level at higher levels. But if the package has powers that only kick in at higher levels, it shouldn't apply for "buy off".
The_Ditto
02-27-07, 10:32 AM Hmm, so to clarify ... I'm using the Thri-kreen racial class from Comp Psi right now ... when I'm 6th level .. I'll have 2 racial Hit hice and 2 class levels.

I'll also have +2 LA, correct? Or do racial classes act differently in that regard. That is, if I ask what my character level is, is it 6? or 4? I know I only have 4 HD.

But I'm just curious now if those racial classes give LA adjustments as well as they progress? Or do they give something else?

Thanks!
Arcade
02-27-07, 12:34 PM I've used LA before on a minotaur and it worked fine. I am putting together a campaign where pretty much all the characters have LA, and one is half-celestial.

Gaining special abilities as you progress in levels seems to follow the Bloodline progression. So to add on to Spyone's idea, separate the creature into instant and progressive abilities. Next, use LA for instant abilities and the Bloodline progression for progressive abilities.
In addition, I'd consider being able to pay off bloodlines using a system similar to LA. For a minor bloodline,a buy off at level 15. For intermediate, levels 18 and 21. And for major, buy off at levels 21, 27, and 30.

So take the half celestial. Consider him an intermediate bloodline and a +3 LA. Yes, this makes him 5 extra levels, instead of 4, but he has two advantages over the normal half-celestial- he doesn't have to pay for his intermediate bloodline abilities until levels 6 and 12. So at level 5 and below, he's only paying for 3 levels of LA, and until level 12, he's matching the normal half celestial in LA. Second, he can buy off these levels at 9, 15, and 18 (for instant abilities) and 18 and 21 (for progressive abilities).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Ditto 02-27-07, 09:44 AM	Hey everyone, I was hoping to risk starting up yet another LA thread .. I've perused the forums and read over some of the older LA related threads, but nothing really touched on what I was hoping to ask here; so I hope you don't mind ... :D I was looking over some LA templates/races in the MM last night, and got to thinking more about the LA buy-off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) method. First question, I guess is how many people use it? How many people have had problems with it? I've always liked it (as a player), but recently I've been looking at it more seriously as a DM, and I have a couple concerns. Ok, fair enough - it seems to work just fine for a simple +1 LA race or such ... but I'm starting to wonder if it's the best thing for certain LA races and templates. The one I was looking at that got me thinking, was the Half-Celestial. It's a +4 LA. Which means you can start buying it off at level 12 ... This is where I started thinking: - The UA buy-off rules are based on the assumption that the LA is a handi-cap at low level, and not so much at higher level. That is, the cost (the LA) doesn't have much return on investment at higher level. This seems to hold true for a +1 LA race ... the small bonuses it gives (ie darkvision, a couple stat bumps, maybe a 1/day spell-like) don't really make a difference at level 15 ... (for example). I tend to agree with that much ... However .. what about a race/template that "keeps on giving". The Half-Celestial template - for example - keeps granting new spell-like abilities as your HD increase. Is it really fair to allow a buy-off of that LA (ie the cost) when you're still reaping the benefits?? I then realized that similar logic applies to Half-Fiend, Phrenic, Githyanki, Githzerai and Thri-kreen (to name a few) ... So now I'm curious ... Let's step down to a simple case. Let's look at the Gith. They are +2 LA (I'm working on memory here, please correct me if I got this wrong). And yet, they keep getting psi-likes as their HD increase. So at level 6, we buy-off 1 LA, and at level 9, we buy off the other. At that point, we are (at most) 2 levels behind the party (and gaining quickly thanks to the XP rules) ... and we still have some new psi-likes to look forward to as we level (ie Plane Shift) ... Am I just being overly paranoid on this? Or is there an actual issue with this? Does the LA buy-off work well for static LA races/templates .. but not too well for dynamic ones? What are your thoughts on this? :confused:
spyone 02-27-07, 10:19 AM	My general thought is that Level Adjustment was a decent idea, but it has been superceeded by a better one: Racial Levels. I think you should make a version of the race to serve as the "base" that has been stripped of most of its abilitys to the poitn that it is balanced against other races, and would not require a LA. Then, create Levels the character can buy to gain the usual racial abilities. I'd do something similar with the Half-celestial: Rather than automatically gaining new powers at higher levels, you'd have to take a level in Half Celestial that would grant you one Hit Die and some spell-like abilities. essentially, break the "half celestial" template into 4 sections, each with a LA of +1, and then take each of those as a class level, one at a time (and possably with a prerequisite like "Must have at least 10 Hit Dice to take this level). But your reasoning seems sound: the "Buy off" was intended to cover packages that give you one time power: boost when you get it, but not really equal to a class level at higher levels. But if the package has powers that only kick in at higher levels, it shouldn't apply for "buy off".
The_Ditto 02-27-07, 10:32 AM	Hmm, so to clarify ... I'm using the Thri-kreen racial class from Comp Psi right now ... when I'm 6th level .. I'll have 2 racial Hit hice and 2 class levels. I'll also have +2 LA, correct? Or do racial classes act differently in that regard. That is, if I ask what my character level is, is it 6? or 4? I know I only have 4 HD. But I'm just curious now if those racial classes give LA adjustments as well as they progress? Or do they give something else? Thanks!
Arcade 02-27-07, 12:34 PM	I've used LA before on a minotaur and it worked fine. I am putting together a campaign where pretty much all the characters have LA, and one is half-celestial. Gaining special abilities as you progress in levels seems to follow the Bloodline progression. So to add on to Spyone's idea, separate the creature into instant and progressive abilities. Next, use LA for instant abilities and the Bloodline progression for progressive abilities. In addition, I'd consider being able to pay off bloodlines using a system similar to LA. For a minor bloodline,a buy off at level 15. For intermediate, levels 18 and 21. And for major, buy off at levels 21, 27, and 30. So take the half celestial. Consider him an intermediate bloodline and a +3 LA. Yes, this makes him 5 extra levels, instead of 4, but he has two advantages over the normal half-celestial- he doesn't have to pay for his intermediate bloodline abilities until levels 6 and 12. So at level 5 and below, he's only paying for 3 levels of LA, and until level 12, he's matching the normal half celestial in LA. Second, he can buy off these levels at 9, 15, and 18 (for instant abilities) and 18 and 21 (for progressive abilities).