Anyone seen a good skill based magic system? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Anyone seen a good skill based magic system? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
EvilVegan
10-02-06, 10:45 PM I was wondering if there were any good skill-based magic systems. Like you have ranks in "Transmutation" and if you make a DC 25 check you could cast a 2nd level spell (for example).

Or anything similar.

Or if anyone has seen a work up for d20 "white wolf: vampire" style abilities, like auspex or presence, etc.
dizfactor
10-03-06, 11:46 AM I was wondering if there were any good skill-based magic systems. Like you have ranks in "Transmutation" and if you make a DC 25 check you could cast a 2nd level spell (for example).

Or anything similar.

There's a skill- and feat-driven magic system in Talislanta D20. There are a number of Orders, which are feats which allow you to cast a certain kind of spells (Wizardry, Necromancy, Shamanism, etc), and which give you bonuses and penalties to various magical skills (or even rule out certain magical skills altogether).

Then there are 12 Mode skills, which reflect different kinds of things you do with magic: Alter, Attack, Conjure, Defend, Heal, Illusion, Influence, Move, Reveal, Summon, Transfer, and Ward.

Basically, you combine the Order and Mode to get an effect. To get a fireball you use Order: Pyromancy and Mode: Attack.

The DC of each spell increases with the more you want it to do (increases in damage, increased range, whatever).

You can get it pretty cheap on DriveThruRPG, and it comes as part of the whole D20 Talislanta setting, which is a decent intro to the best fantasy RPG setting ever.
Judging Eagle
10-03-06, 05:30 PM I've got a system that I've been wrking on.

JE's rebuild of Elrabin's Focus-Based system (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=708451)

The system combines a tiny spell point pool along with Casting Checks (modified by Caser Level and your main casting stat modifier).

Going for a skill-based system is very easy to abuse since there are tons and tons of ways to get really, really high skill checks.

Caster level is a bit harder to abuse. Still, I recognize that as a system it could be bent; if not broken.
Rhialto
10-04-06, 04:26 AM I've come to the conclusion that a purely skill-based magic system is inherently unbalanced. This is because at any given moment, the wizard has the same "nova" potential, regardless of whether he is freshly rested or fresh from the fight.

The only way to prevent this would be with some kind of mental fatigue stat gained each time you cast (or gained on failing a cast, or something), in which case what you have is a weird kind of mana system with dice rolls to cast successfully. Making such a system was, I felt, too hard to balance, so I just went and made mine openly mana based instead of trying to balance a skill point system.
True Cavalier
10-04-06, 05:34 AM My favorite is the Spell Point system from Unearthed Arcana with a type of Vitalizing variant to let you cast more, but at a personal cost.
rydi123
10-05-06, 02:41 AM star wars d20.
Lina_Inverse
10-05-06, 03:00 PM Youll never find a good skill based magic system. Because by there nature spells violate the skill systems existanse.

Who needs climb when you can levitate ;).
Valoy_Muniz
10-05-06, 03:22 PM The slayers has a good spell point system to its game. I just think it would be to much work to bring it over to the D&D.
ChimericalWolf
10-05-06, 04:23 PM There's Truenaming, in the ToM.
Millennium
10-05-06, 04:46 PM There's Truenaming, in the ToM.
Truenaming has the infamous creeping-weakness problem: enemies get resistance to truenaming faster than you build up your power. Effectively you get weaker as you level, and the only way to alleviate it is by carefully building your character with specific items and feats. The flavor text even goes as far as to say this outright.

What's needed is a skill-based system that actually lets you keep pace with your friends and enemies without needing to metagame your build from the very beginning. I've yet to see one that worked well, which is something of a shame.
EvilVegan
10-05-06, 10:01 PM The slayers has a good spell point system to its game. I just think it would be too much work to bring it over to the D&D.
I just wanted to point out the irony that this post followed a post by Lina Inverse (from the Anime the slayers) and she said that one did not exist. :P
Wayside
10-05-06, 10:34 PM Rolemaster has a good system, but its so far removed from d&d it would be hard to convert.
Edheldūr
10-06-06, 01:14 AM I was wondering if there were any good skill-based magic systems. Like you have ranks in "Transmutation" and if you make a DC 25 check you could cast a 2nd level spell (for example).

Or anything similar.

There's also a skill-based spellcasting system in the Advanced Player's Guide from Sword and Sorcery, reprinted in The Year's Best D20 by Monte Cook.
dizfactor
10-06-06, 03:39 PM Youll never find a good skill based magic system. Because by there nature spells violate the skill systems existanse.

Who needs climb when you can levitate ;).

The Tal D20 rules offset this by a skill penalty. Every spell you cast during the day increases your Spell Penalty by 1, and the penalty applies to all spellcasting skill rolls for the rest of the day. You can climb as often as you want, but you can't cast levitate spells all day.

----

One of the major issues I see with a skill-based magic system is that it further increases the advantages of INT-based casters. You might be able to offset that by giving bonus skill points for magic skills only for primary spell-casting attributes other than INT.
Lina_Inverse
10-06-06, 10:04 PM The slayers has a good spell point system to its game. I just think it would be to much work to bring it over to the D&D.

The system in slayers d20 is most definitly not skill based. Hence i have no idea what he speaks of.

Truenaming has the infamous creeping-weakness problem: enemies get resistance to truenaming faster than you build up your power. Effectively you get weaker as you level, and the only way to alleviate it is by carefully building your character with specific items and feats. The flavor text even goes as far as to say this outright.

What's needed is a skill-based system that actually lets you keep pace with your friends and enemies without needing to metagame your build from the very beginning. I've yet to see one that worked well, which is something of a shame.

Yeah um, you realize what happens when i get those items and feats anyways right?
A fighter needs a magic sword, armor and sword wielding feats. A truenamer needs a +skill item and truenameing feats. This is normal.
ChimericalWolf
10-07-06, 01:50 AM Yeah um, you realize what happens when i get those items and feats anyways right?
A fighter needs a magic sword, armor and sword wielding feats. A truenamer needs a +skill item and truenameing feats. This is normal.
I agree, but was not (and am not) inclined to get into an arguement about that system.
Drohem
10-09-06, 11:27 PM It has already been said, but Talislanta (either D20 version or 4th Edition rules) are your best bet. Excellent systems!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EvilVegan 10-02-06, 10:45 PM	I was wondering if there were any good skill-based magic systems. Like you have ranks in "Transmutation" and if you make a DC 25 check you could cast a 2nd level spell (for example). Or anything similar. Or if anyone has seen a work up for d20 "white wolf: vampire" style abilities, like auspex or presence, etc.
dizfactor 10-03-06, 11:46 AM	I was wondering if there were any good skill-based magic systems. Like you have ranks in "Transmutation" and if you make a DC 25 check you could cast a 2nd level spell (for example). Or anything similar. There's a skill- and feat-driven magic system in Talislanta D20. There are a number of Orders, which are feats which allow you to cast a certain kind of spells (Wizardry, Necromancy, Shamanism, etc), and which give you bonuses and penalties to various magical skills (or even rule out certain magical skills altogether). Then there are 12 Mode skills, which reflect different kinds of things you do with magic: Alter, Attack, Conjure, Defend, Heal, Illusion, Influence, Move, Reveal, Summon, Transfer, and Ward. Basically, you combine the Order and Mode to get an effect. To get a fireball you use Order: Pyromancy and Mode: Attack. The DC of each spell increases with the more you want it to do (increases in damage, increased range, whatever). You can get it pretty cheap on DriveThruRPG, and it comes as part of the whole D20 Talislanta setting, which is a decent intro to the best fantasy RPG setting ever.
Judging Eagle 10-03-06, 05:30 PM	I've got a system that I've been wrking on. JE's rebuild of Elrabin's Focus-Based system (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=708451) The system combines a tiny spell point pool along with Casting Checks (modified by Caser Level and your main casting stat modifier). Going for a skill-based system is very easy to abuse since there are tons and tons of ways to get really, really high skill checks. Caster level is a bit harder to abuse. Still, I recognize that as a system it could be bent; if not broken.
Rhialto 10-04-06, 04:26 AM	I've come to the conclusion that a purely skill-based magic system is inherently unbalanced. This is because at any given moment, the wizard has the same "nova" potential, regardless of whether he is freshly rested or fresh from the fight. The only way to prevent this would be with some kind of mental fatigue stat gained each time you cast (or gained on failing a cast, or something), in which case what you have is a weird kind of mana system with dice rolls to cast successfully. Making such a system was, I felt, too hard to balance, so I just went and made mine openly mana based instead of trying to balance a skill point system.
True Cavalier 10-04-06, 05:34 AM	My favorite is the Spell Point system from Unearthed Arcana with a type of Vitalizing variant to let you cast more, but at a personal cost.
rydi123 10-05-06, 02:41 AM	star wars d20.
Lina_Inverse 10-05-06, 03:00 PM	Youll never find a good skill based magic system. Because by there nature spells violate the skill systems existanse. Who needs climb when you can levitate ;).
Valoy_Muniz 10-05-06, 03:22 PM	The slayers has a good spell point system to its game. I just think it would be to much work to bring it over to the D&D.
ChimericalWolf 10-05-06, 04:23 PM	There's Truenaming, in the ToM.
Millennium 10-05-06, 04:46 PM	There's Truenaming, in the ToM. Truenaming has the infamous creeping-weakness problem: enemies get resistance to truenaming faster than you build up your power. Effectively you get weaker as you level, and the only way to alleviate it is by carefully building your character with specific items and feats. The flavor text even goes as far as to say this outright. What's needed is a skill-based system that actually lets you keep pace with your friends and enemies without needing to metagame your build from the very beginning. I've yet to see one that worked well, which is something of a shame.
EvilVegan 10-05-06, 10:01 PM	The slayers has a good spell point system to its game. I just think it would be too much work to bring it over to the D&D. I just wanted to point out the irony that this post followed a post by Lina Inverse (from the Anime the slayers) and she said that one did not exist. :P
Wayside 10-05-06, 10:34 PM	Rolemaster has a good system, but its so far removed from d&d it would be hard to convert.
Edheldūr 10-06-06, 01:14 AM	I was wondering if there were any good skill-based magic systems. Like you have ranks in "Transmutation" and if you make a DC 25 check you could cast a 2nd level spell (for example). Or anything similar. There's also a skill-based spellcasting system in the Advanced Player's Guide from Sword and Sorcery, reprinted in The Year's Best D20 by Monte Cook.
dizfactor 10-06-06, 03:39 PM	Youll never find a good skill based magic system. Because by there nature spells violate the skill systems existanse. Who needs climb when you can levitate ;). The Tal D20 rules offset this by a skill penalty. Every spell you cast during the day increases your Spell Penalty by 1, and the penalty applies to all spellcasting skill rolls for the rest of the day. You can climb as often as you want, but you can't cast levitate spells all day. ---- One of the major issues I see with a skill-based magic system is that it further increases the advantages of INT-based casters. You might be able to offset that by giving bonus skill points for magic skills only for primary spell-casting attributes other than INT.
Lina_Inverse 10-06-06, 10:04 PM	The slayers has a good spell point system to its game. I just think it would be to much work to bring it over to the D&D. The system in slayers d20 is most definitly not skill based. Hence i have no idea what he speaks of. Truenaming has the infamous creeping-weakness problem: enemies get resistance to truenaming faster than you build up your power. Effectively you get weaker as you level, and the only way to alleviate it is by carefully building your character with specific items and feats. The flavor text even goes as far as to say this outright. What's needed is a skill-based system that actually lets you keep pace with your friends and enemies without needing to metagame your build from the very beginning. I've yet to see one that worked well, which is something of a shame. Yeah um, you realize what happens when i get those items and feats anyways right? A fighter needs a magic sword, armor and sword wielding feats. A truenamer needs a +skill item and truenameing feats. This is normal.
ChimericalWolf 10-07-06, 01:50 AM	Yeah um, you realize what happens when i get those items and feats anyways right? A fighter needs a magic sword, armor and sword wielding feats. A truenamer needs a +skill item and truenameing feats. This is normal. I agree, but was not (and am not) inclined to get into an arguement about that system.
Drohem 10-09-06, 11:27 PM	It has already been said, but Talislanta (either D20 version or 4th Edition rules) are your best bet. Excellent systems!