Arcana Fusion. (It involves psionics! Sorta..) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcana Fusion. (It involves psionics! Sorta..) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Koga:The ninja trick
10-02-05, 07:21 PM The Koga was just denied his psi-warrior in a game because "psionics don't feel like fantasy" which is bull, look at Final FANTASY.. but then The Koga got to thinking.. perhaps psionics may not be harsh enough on magick, but those power points may be onto something.. so with the bromination of spells, psionics, and The Koga's low-magick brain process.. he brings you..

ARCANA FUSION:
How it works:
Apparently the classes will have to be carefuly selected which ones would be allowed in game to insure balance. But bassicaly, there is no spells per day. Instead, you must make a concentration check of 15+the spell's level inorder to cast a spell. Also unless otherwise noted, you suffer arcane spell failure as before with wearing armour. Exsept now for every 5% an armour would cause failure, it just increases the dc requirement by +1. Sound like an impossible "feat"? This is where power points or "mana" comes in..

Mana, as either fixed or rolled, it doesn't matter, to determine how much you get per level. Lowers the dc requirement for your save to cast a spell by 1 for every mana point used. So let's say for instance you're a sorcerer, you have 4 mana, and you want to cast magick missle. You can spend your four mana, now all you have to do is make a concentration check of 12. (11+1 for a level 1 spell.) doesn't seem so bad now does it? Ofcourse after that one nova you're going to now have to make a save of 16. But it's assumed you're going to max-out your concentration skill as it is.. and everyone on a d20 on average makes a 10 or 11..

How's that for balance? ;) NOTE: By balance The Koga means it being equal to a pure melee character..
Arcade
10-02-05, 08:00 PM Characters gain ranks in concentration twice as fast as they do new spell levels, so you need to even it out.

Let's say I do max out concentration and I take skill focus and I have a +2 CON bonus, which is going to get boosted up because I will cast bull's strength non-stop since I have unlimited spells per day.

A 5th level wizard in this situation has a modified concentration of +17 (8 ranks + 6 for con + 3 for spell focus). And he sure as heck would be trying to get a magic item that gave him +5 on concentration checks. Even without Bull's Strength, he still gets a +15 to concentration.

Obvioulsy too powerful. I would suggest instead increasing the DC drastically (likely by taking caster level into account as well) and then using the mana points to make sure they get a few easy-to-moderate castings per day of their highest level spell and make the rest really hard.

Also, make sure there is a penalty for failure, or else you will have mages do a take 20 on all their non-combat spells, which can be very overpowering as well.
Mind Rogue
10-02-05, 08:36 PM Feedback or backlash of 1d6 damage or 1 pt per point that you failed by might be appropriate. This is untyped damage that cannot be blocked by damage reduction or energy resistance.

Making it concentration based is also something I'd be iffy about. Idealogically, I think that spellcraft makes more sense although I guess it could go either way. Alternatively, perhaps you should make it a caster level check so higher level casters would always be better at doing it, although this might be problematic if you remove the casting classes altogether to be replaced by this feat.

Perhaps a way to work for it would be making it a spellcraft (or the concentration if you prefer) check, DC 10 or 15 + spell level + intended caster level. Thus it is easier to pull off lower level spells, and it is also easier if you choose to make them less powerful than more powerful. For instance, a 8th level wizard could choose to cast a 5d6 fireball with a DC 23 spellcraft check (15 +3 +5), or he could cast it as high as 8th level with a DC 26 spellcraft (15 +3 +8). Failure incurrs 1 damage per pt that you failed by. So if he tried to cast his most powerful fireball, but only rolled a 23, he would take 3 points of damage and the fireball would fizzle. If he hadn't been so greedy, he would have pulled it off for 5d6 fire.

Another thing to keep in mind is that this system doesn't differentiate between how many spells you cast each day. Feasibly, a high level cleric/white mage/etc. could have a high enough score in the skill in question that there is no or almost no chance of failure with the lower spells and could thus heal 1d8+5 straight up every round. While this doesn't help so much in battle, it allows for full healing between battles, although it is possible that you might want that. Unfortunatly, there isn't a good method for removing this problem. Increasing the check DC generally increases too rapidly to make it viable to use: if you make it +1 per spell cast since resting, you never use the lower level ones; +1 per spell level and your initial spells will have incredibly low DCs, but the rest of them will be impossible to pull off after round 3 of combat.
IceFractal
10-03-05, 03:39 PM First off, I'm presuming you can't "take 10" on the Concentration check, much like Use Magic Device. If you can take 10, this becomes even more overpowered.

Even without that though:
Level 1 Human Wizard:
Concentration Bonus: 4 (ranks) + 4 (18 Con) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 2 (+2/+2 feat) = +13, minimum roll 14

So you'll not be able to mimic anything reliably yet. But wait, just manage to roll 3 or high once, and you'll be able to cast Bull's Strength, raising your check to +15, which means you are guaranteed to succeed at casting a 1st level spell. This gives you unlimited 1st level spells a day at level 1, and your skill bonus just keeps going up, so you'll always have unlimited spells per day of any level you can cast.

And to boot, since your skill check goes up faster than the spell level, you'll be able to ignore 5% ASF per 2 levels, as your check will be that much higher than needed. So for instance, at level 17, you'll be able to cast an infinite number of 9th level spells per day, wearing armor that grants as much as 40% ASF with no problem.

Oh, and incidentally, this is without any items needed at all. If you were starting at a level higher than 1st, you could buy a Belt of Health and an item of Concentration +X, and then be able to ditch the feats and start with a lower Constitution.
Cynlas
10-08-05, 05:13 AM Perhaps make the Casting DC 20 + 1 per spell level.

Do not allow taking 10 or 20 on casting checks (though perhaps a Feat to allow for "10" at moderate to high level?);

and make sure that the casting check for combat is separate from the actual check to produce the spell, thereby adding an extra step to the process during combat.

For the non-combat times, I don't really see why not, as you don't need Bull's Strength every minute of every day even if you could manage to cast it.

Even with the increased DC to cast, a first level character will have a similar chance at successfully casting the spell as a fighter hitting an armored opponent, asyes, the ACs are usually less than 20 or 21, the warrior doesn't start off with a +4 BAB either (which is what a skill check does, as a level one critter/pc is likely to have max ranks in such a crucial skill).

Or, if there are still spellcasting "classes", and you want to preserve this mechanic, then just give them a "Magic Attack Bonus" that follows the same progression as a Fighter (or Rogue for the hybrid casters or clerics), and then reduce the base DC of the spell casting to either your 15 + Spell level, or make it a roll against the target's Will save.

Whatever, you need, to balance it according to your idea of balance, to make sure your system "misses" as often as a combat guru does at an equivalent level. You may need to increase the spell dc per level exponentially (0,1,2,4,16...), or on a progression like the PP cost of psionics (ie a level 0 spell is +0, level 1 is +1, level 2 is +3, level 3 is +5, ect...)

while I see the point you want to create with your mana system, it doesnt really need to be there.

Additionally, do you really want characters to be able to release 10D6 Fireballs every round until their enemies (and their enemies' armies) are dead? I suppose it might be a fun experiment for a one shot or very short campaign, but not as a "permanent" house rule.

The idea of making the spell harder to cast based upon how many you have already cast in a single day (or whatnot) has merit, and is a good emulation of many stories' concepts of magical limits, and it has the advantage of "scaling" to the level of dificulty the DM desires to set the tone of magic in the campaign (a low dc add will make spells more common, but a higher dc add, like +2 or +4, will make casters more reluctant to waste their "energy" on frivolus castings), but again, this does not fit well with your attempt at "balancing" spellcasting to physical combatants' abilities, as a fighter does not suffer any kind of penalty to each additional swing of his sword (unless you are useing some not Core rules regarding that as well...perhaps a -1 attack penalty for each round of combat after a number of consecutive rounds of combat based upon their CON mod...but that is another thread) :)

A more complex version that might work for you is set different scores to the dc adds based upon the type/school of spell cast. For instance, an Evocation spell might add a +3, but a Divination might only add a +1 (if any); recognizing that the "flashier" magics take a greater toll on a caster than even the higher level "invisible" or unnoticable magics. This obviously limits the number of Flame Strikes or Fireballs being cast, but perhaps too much if cumulative? (a fire ball, as a first spell of day, has a DC 23, but the second one cast has a DC of 26, then DC 29...something a 6th level char would find difficult, even with a positive Con mod)

I do like the idea for certain campaign models, though there are few players I know who I'd entrust this kind of spellcasting mechanic to. It really only works if your players are using it in the "spirit" it was intended, otherwise they will break it no matter what mechanical supports you create for it.

Finally, you do realize that you are effectively transferring the stat used to grant bonus spells to be universally Constitution, regardless of magic type, as the spell casting is directly tied to the concentration skill, thereby setting the basic threashold as to how many spells will actually be cast by the character, yes? Sure, the appropriate state can still be used to identify the highest level spell available, and the actual Save DCs of the spell, but it no longer affects the amount of spells cast by the character, while their Con mod does.

Anyway, just my late night ramblings..

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koga:The ninja trick 10-02-05, 07:21 PM	The Koga was just denied his psi-warrior in a game because "psionics don't feel like fantasy" which is bull, look at Final FANTASY.. but then The Koga got to thinking.. perhaps psionics may not be harsh enough on magick, but those power points may be onto something.. so with the bromination of spells, psionics, and The Koga's low-magick brain process.. he brings you.. ARCANA FUSION: How it works: Apparently the classes will have to be carefuly selected which ones would be allowed in game to insure balance. But bassicaly, there is no spells per day. Instead, you must make a concentration check of 15+the spell's level inorder to cast a spell. Also unless otherwise noted, you suffer arcane spell failure as before with wearing armour. Exsept now for every 5% an armour would cause failure, it just increases the dc requirement by +1. Sound like an impossible "feat"? This is where power points or "mana" comes in.. Mana, as either fixed or rolled, it doesn't matter, to determine how much you get per level. Lowers the dc requirement for your save to cast a spell by 1 for every mana point used. So let's say for instance you're a sorcerer, you have 4 mana, and you want to cast magick missle. You can spend your four mana, now all you have to do is make a concentration check of 12. (11+1 for a level 1 spell.) doesn't seem so bad now does it? Ofcourse after that one nova you're going to now have to make a save of 16. But it's assumed you're going to max-out your concentration skill as it is.. and everyone on a d20 on average makes a 10 or 11.. How's that for balance? ;) NOTE: By balance The Koga means it being equal to a pure melee character..
Arcade 10-02-05, 08:00 PM	Characters gain ranks in concentration twice as fast as they do new spell levels, so you need to even it out. Let's say I do max out concentration and I take skill focus and I have a +2 CON bonus, which is going to get boosted up because I will cast bull's strength non-stop since I have unlimited spells per day. A 5th level wizard in this situation has a modified concentration of +17 (8 ranks + 6 for con + 3 for spell focus). And he sure as heck would be trying to get a magic item that gave him +5 on concentration checks. Even without Bull's Strength, he still gets a +15 to concentration. Obvioulsy too powerful. I would suggest instead increasing the DC drastically (likely by taking caster level into account as well) and then using the mana points to make sure they get a few easy-to-moderate castings per day of their highest level spell and make the rest really hard. Also, make sure there is a penalty for failure, or else you will have mages do a take 20 on all their non-combat spells, which can be very overpowering as well.
Mind Rogue 10-02-05, 08:36 PM	Feedback or backlash of 1d6 damage or 1 pt per point that you failed by might be appropriate. This is untyped damage that cannot be blocked by damage reduction or energy resistance. Making it concentration based is also something I'd be iffy about. Idealogically, I think that spellcraft makes more sense although I guess it could go either way. Alternatively, perhaps you should make it a caster level check so higher level casters would always be better at doing it, although this might be problematic if you remove the casting classes altogether to be replaced by this feat. Perhaps a way to work for it would be making it a spellcraft (or the concentration if you prefer) check, DC 10 or 15 + spell level + intended caster level. Thus it is easier to pull off lower level spells, and it is also easier if you choose to make them less powerful than more powerful. For instance, a 8th level wizard could choose to cast a 5d6 fireball with a DC 23 spellcraft check (15 +3 +5), or he could cast it as high as 8th level with a DC 26 spellcraft (15 +3 +8). Failure incurrs 1 damage per pt that you failed by. So if he tried to cast his most powerful fireball, but only rolled a 23, he would take 3 points of damage and the fireball would fizzle. If he hadn't been so greedy, he would have pulled it off for 5d6 fire. Another thing to keep in mind is that this system doesn't differentiate between how many spells you cast each day. Feasibly, a high level cleric/white mage/etc. could have a high enough score in the skill in question that there is no or almost no chance of failure with the lower spells and could thus heal 1d8+5 straight up every round. While this doesn't help so much in battle, it allows for full healing between battles, although it is possible that you might want that. Unfortunatly, there isn't a good method for removing this problem. Increasing the check DC generally increases too rapidly to make it viable to use: if you make it +1 per spell cast since resting, you never use the lower level ones; +1 per spell level and your initial spells will have incredibly low DCs, but the rest of them will be impossible to pull off after round 3 of combat.
IceFractal 10-03-05, 03:39 PM	First off, I'm presuming you can't "take 10" on the Concentration check, much like Use Magic Device. If you can take 10, this becomes even more overpowered. Even without that though: Level 1 Human Wizard: Concentration Bonus: 4 (ranks) + 4 (18 Con) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 2 (+2/+2 feat) = +13, minimum roll 14 So you'll not be able to mimic anything reliably yet. But wait, just manage to roll 3 or high once, and you'll be able to cast Bull's Strength, raising your check to +15, which means you are guaranteed to succeed at casting a 1st level spell. This gives you unlimited 1st level spells a day at level 1, and your skill bonus just keeps going up, so you'll always have unlimited spells per day of any level you can cast. And to boot, since your skill check goes up faster than the spell level, you'll be able to ignore 5% ASF per 2 levels, as your check will be that much higher than needed. So for instance, at level 17, you'll be able to cast an infinite number of 9th level spells per day, wearing armor that grants as much as 40% ASF with no problem. Oh, and incidentally, this is without any items needed at all. If you were starting at a level higher than 1st, you could buy a Belt of Health and an item of Concentration +X, and then be able to ditch the feats and start with a lower Constitution.
Cynlas 10-08-05, 05:13 AM	Perhaps make the Casting DC 20 + 1 per spell level. Do not allow taking 10 or 20 on casting checks (though perhaps a Feat to allow for "10" at moderate to high level?); and make sure that the casting check for combat is separate from the actual check to produce the spell, thereby adding an extra step to the process during combat. For the non-combat times, I don't really see why not, as you don't need Bull's Strength every minute of every day even if you could manage to cast it. Even with the increased DC to cast, a first level character will have a similar chance at successfully casting the spell as a fighter hitting an armored opponent, asyes, the ACs are usually less than 20 or 21, the warrior doesn't start off with a +4 BAB either (which is what a skill check does, as a level one critter/pc is likely to have max ranks in such a crucial skill). Or, if there are still spellcasting "classes", and you want to preserve this mechanic, then just give them a "Magic Attack Bonus" that follows the same progression as a Fighter (or Rogue for the hybrid casters or clerics), and then reduce the base DC of the spell casting to either your 15 + Spell level, or make it a roll against the target's Will save. Whatever, you need, to balance it according to your idea of balance, to make sure your system "misses" as often as a combat guru does at an equivalent level. You may need to increase the spell dc per level exponentially (0,1,2,4,16...), or on a progression like the PP cost of psionics (ie a level 0 spell is +0, level 1 is +1, level 2 is +3, level 3 is +5, ect...) while I see the point you want to create with your mana system, it doesnt really need to be there. Additionally, do you really want characters to be able to release 10D6 Fireballs every round until their enemies (and their enemies' armies) are dead? I suppose it might be a fun experiment for a one shot or very short campaign, but not as a "permanent" house rule. The idea of making the spell harder to cast based upon how many you have already cast in a single day (or whatnot) has merit, and is a good emulation of many stories' concepts of magical limits, and it has the advantage of "scaling" to the level of dificulty the DM desires to set the tone of magic in the campaign (a low dc add will make spells more common, but a higher dc add, like +2 or +4, will make casters more reluctant to waste their "energy" on frivolus castings), but again, this does not fit well with your attempt at "balancing" spellcasting to physical combatants' abilities, as a fighter does not suffer any kind of penalty to each additional swing of his sword (unless you are useing some not Core rules regarding that as well...perhaps a -1 attack penalty for each round of combat after a number of consecutive rounds of combat based upon their CON mod...but that is another thread) :) A more complex version that might work for you is set different scores to the dc adds based upon the type/school of spell cast. For instance, an Evocation spell might add a +3, but a Divination might only add a +1 (if any); recognizing that the "flashier" magics take a greater toll on a caster than even the higher level "invisible" or unnoticable magics. This obviously limits the number of Flame Strikes or Fireballs being cast, but perhaps too much if cumulative? (a fire ball, as a first spell of day, has a DC 23, but the second one cast has a DC of 26, then DC 29...something a 6th level char would find difficult, even with a positive Con mod) I do like the idea for certain campaign models, though there are few players I know who I'd entrust this kind of spellcasting mechanic to. It really only works if your players are using it in the "spirit" it was intended, otherwise they will break it no matter what mechanical supports you create for it. Finally, you do realize that you are effectively transferring the stat used to grant bonus spells to be universally Constitution, regardless of magic type, as the spell casting is directly tied to the concentration skill, thereby setting the basic threashold as to how many spells will actually be cast by the character, yes? Sure, the appropriate state can still be used to identify the highest level spell available, and the actual Save DCs of the spell, but it no longer affects the amount of spells cast by the character, while their Con mod does. Anyway, just my late night ramblings..