Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MSW 09-27-05, 04:48 PM	Are you using the Vitality and Wound point system from UA in your game? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040206a&page=3 Our DM announced that we will be switching to the V/WP system for our next adventure, and a few of the players have expressed concerns over how the system basically nerfs healing. (our party has no cleric and relies on potions mainly for healing). I was wanting to hear from people that have played under the V/WP system to get their thoughts good or bad on how it works out in actual play testing. Reading it is one thing, but you can't really tell until you play test it. So how is it working (better/worse) in your campaign over the D&D standard hitpoint system? What do you like/dislike about it over the standard system? Would you recommend/not recommend using this V/WP system knowing what you do now from play testing it? Thanks.
Millennium 09-27-05, 07:41 PM	V/WP can work well, but unfortunately UA's explanation of it is incomplete. It was originally designed for the Star Wars d20 RPG, and it works well there because the system was designed around it, but there were a few more aspects of that game that need to be brought into D&D for VP/WP to remain balanced. The biggest thing to do is this: any effect which doubles your crit range under RAW should only add 1 to your crit range instead. This is pulled out of SWd20, where the effects were stated to do this. If you have access to Fiend Folio, take a look at the stats for the Nimblewright and you'll see why this is important; such a creature becomes an Instant Death Machine otherwise. It's a common interpretation that if your Wound Points are filled, any additional healing to your Wounds spills over into your Vitality, but the reverse doesn't occur. This goes most of the way towards de-nerfing healing. UA doesn't really say anything on the matter. Rogues get a BIG boost under this system, because sneak attacks go straight to Wounds and pierce damage reduction. It's even bigger if you consider that other classes can't reliably do damage straight to Wounds; they have to score critical hits. Because it this, pretty common to reduce sneak attack damage to one point per die, as UA suggests. This isn't as big of a nerf as it might sound; under this interpretation, a rogue with sneak attack will still require about the same number of hits to bring an enemy down as he would in RAW, given his level and most enemies' Con relative to their power levels. Even in those cases where the rogue requires more hits, the first two advantages still apply, so high-level rogues become Extremely Scary. Note my remarks on the Nimblewright above.
Mendwell 09-28-05, 12:59 AM	The problem with it is as an 8th level fighter you have a 15-20 threat range and a + 4/28 chance to confirm and only have to do 20 damage to drop something... with this you have a 1-4 chance of killing anything this is extream but you end up not wanting them to fight anything with a con or worried that one hit will drop a creature with 200 hp.
Gemstone 09-28-05, 05:09 AM	The woundpoint system works very well with star wars, but with DnD it's another matter. In DnD, combat are meant to be epic and every hit is not as dangerous as in real life, while in star wars, a single hit with a lightsaber brings you down. This rises a big issue with DnD. A hit there can turn into a ONE kill, especially for crit machines. In my SW game, I have a player who basicly has a crit range of 18-20 and even with those 15% chance, he takes down every other enemy with a critical hit. I even had to custom create the boss from keeping him going down after a single hit (that means, 16+ con, at least one thoughness feat). In DnD, this can prove even more disastreous, where there are so many prestige classes and magical abilities with the potential of increasing your critical value. Thus, Im only against the high crit range some weapons offer... Oh, did I mention the jedi weapon master class? It freaking DOUBLES your threat range. Im not sure if its the base crit or the total crit... even thought its once per day per jedi level and provokes an Aoo, its still SO freakish
Millennium 09-28-05, 06:55 AM	If you need a fight to last long, you need to plan ahead for it by using creatures not subject to critical hits. Constructs and undead have always been common servants for BBEGs, and they become much more valuable in this system. Fortification armor is also a nice addition to the DM's toolbox.
Gold Katana 09-28-05, 08:19 AM	This is our first campaign using it. Most of our characters are at 5th level now. Some modifications we use: Sneak Attack damage (and all other "variable" damage) goes to VP's, even with a critical. We are using armor reduction - armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses do not add to AC. Instead, they are totaled and the equivalent die is rolled to reduce damage on each successful hit. All feats, abilities, etc that doubles threat range only adds 1 to the range. This system is actually making for longer, more realistic combat. So far, we are really enjoying it.
Sigurdur Yorsalfarne 09-28-05, 03:58 PM	I have been pondering over how to use the rules from UA with vitality/Wonds and Damage reduction. NOW, I have fixed the system as a blend between three varieties, with main emphasis on the wound&vitality system. Basically any critical threat that is confirmed with a normal roll, leads to all damage being allocated to the wound points. Defender always gets to subtract any Damage Reduction. As a matter of fact DR only applies towards wounds. This makes armor a protection from physical injury, rather than a barrier to being hit. I LOVE the healing rules of wounds and find them very balancing for the powers of the clerics and healing in general. At the same time, vitality points are recovered at a rapid pace and makes the game more heroic than ever before (no more "we need to rest NOW") while at same time makes critical hits something more than double damage. I also let anyone that is catching opponents flat-footed, get to strike directly at their wound-points. Rouges and others with sneak-attack multipliers adds a +1 per d6 they have. Rogue players lose the ability to "wear opponents out" with a single blow, but could do serious damage when given the right opportunity. So these things allow for damage to the wound points: *A confirmed critical hit *Flat-footed opponent that is hit. *Opponent hit in his rear strike-zone. So anyone gets this, but again, rogues do more damage. *Others denied their dexterity-bonus at any time (successfull feint). *Attacks of opportunity Coup De Grace works like before, but any survivor takes all the injury to wound points. Toughness feat increases the wounds, not vitality. I never understood how being "tough" makes you harder to hit.
Cynlas 09-28-05, 07:33 PM	My playing group (at my introduction of it as DM) has been using the WP/VP system since I got the UA a few months ago. So far, I have found that it makes the PCs rather difficult to kill, even beyond the simple addition of gaining their CON as "additional" HP. It could just be that my group has a really good average for Fortitude saves, though. As your campaing doesn't have a lot of clerical support, the WP/VP system should actually increase playability, as the VP (which is essentially what is HP under the normal system) recover hourly (rather than daily), making post-encounter recovery much speedier than in your current HP system campaign. Of course, if this speedy recovery is what you were meaning by "nerfing", then, yup, it does, and it prolly wont be useful to you. Additionally, despite some's experience and opinion, it does work quite well in D&D, and is not really that specific to SW. The UA gives the needed conversion issues. The biggest "hole" is in regards to HP augmenting feats; I believe (and as DM, I enforce it as such) that such HP gainers, such as Toughness, apply to one's WP rather than VP. I thought I had read that, but cannot currently find it (except in the other alternate "wound" system)
Cynlas 09-28-05, 09:05 PM	...continued The big problem I am having with the alternate system is in the reverse scenario of enemies being killed too easily. Sure, in regards to the low level creatures, like Kobolds, they are no longer quite the cannon fodder that they once were even to appropriately leveled PCs, now having Hp in the teens, rather than simply 4 HP. No, my current issue is (now that the party is a bit higher level) that one lucky critical will kill off anything relatively easily. A prime example is from this last weekend. My 5-7th level party (stupidly according to common sense) took on a DragonTurtle. On the third round of combat, our Fighter/Psion lucked out with a crit, and when combined with her greater psychic Weapon feat active, was able to pull off the 2o+ points of damage needed to reduce a fresh pool of WP to 0 in one strike; reducing what should have been a long, drawn out (and costly) battle instead became an XP harvest instead. While I love using Undead in great quanities, I have been attempting to change my style somewhat in this campain, it seems to be the only in-game solution to an effect that caused me to drop the Insta-Death optional rule from the 3.0 DMG years ago. Still, overall, the system is working fine in the campaign I am running, and I think that, unless you are going for a really deadly campaign by restricting the healing capabilities of it, then this option would be worth trying out.
Deflare 09-29-05, 01:46 AM	I have two problems with VP/WP. 1) Criticals are mighty. Very few creatures have a CON high enough to survive a critical by a high-level Rogue, Barbarian, or Fighter; even level 20 NPCs may have only decent wound points. In addition, when any damage is done to wound points, the creature has to roll a save or fall unconscious (by the Star Wars system, anyway; I assume the UA version is similar). This, I think, offsets the slightly increased total HP using this system. And, of course, the PCs will inevitably get hit by more criticals than any single NPC, and are therefore at a disadvantage in this regard. 2) It's bloody hard to describe. Using a regular HP system, a skilled DM can easily scale his/her descriptions of HP damage depending on how much HP was taken away; this way, 1 damage varies from major shots to the shoulder for level 1 Wizards, to a slight dent in the near-divine aura of level 20 Barbarians. However, I find it very difficult to describe VP damage. You can only describe a certain number of close shaves and lucky dodges before combat really starts to dull.
Jerks 09-29-05, 03:24 AM	My group has been using the Vit/Wound system for the past two months or so and I like it so far. From the sounds of it, everyone has their own variants working, so you (the OP) might need to fiddle around with it a bit to find a mix that is right for you. In regards to some things posted previously. 1) Sneak attack damage. I think that the UA seriously flubbed the ball on this one. Their sidebar on sneak attack suggests that sneak attack damage becomes highly deadly under the system and that people should reduce Wound damage to 1 pt per die. From this some people have infered that sneak attack damage should bypass Vitality always...just from the character being flat-footed. I feel that this greatly enhances the value of sneak attack above the core rules. In the Hit point system Sneak Attack damage IS NOT multiplied in the event of a critical (nor is any other "extra die" above and beyond your weapon). Therefore, even in the event of a critical, sneak attack damage in a Wound/Vitality system should NOT bypass Vitality. Just apply it to Vitality like normal and sneak attack damage isn't this huge 2-ton gorilla. 2) Extra hit point: Toughness becomes a valuable feat! +3 Wounds is a mighty benefit as a buffer to criticals. Also, the effects on huge and advanced creatures is mitigated by the fact that bonus hit points beyond Hit die (and Con bonus) become bonus wounds under this system. High level fighters, wizards, etc. are a bit more vulnerable to lucky player rolls, but then again so to are the players in greater danger. 3) Low level NPC classed creatures get a slight bump in power. They aren't quite the Cleave bait they were before. High level NPC classed creatures get a serious reduction in power. They can be good in mass to throw at players, but at higher levels these guys are just so-much fodder. You should consider adjusting XP awards accordingly. 4) Survivability: PCs are more durable and can recover faster. Clerics don't have to heal quite as much and can make better use of their spells in combat, thus making combats easier and the PCs less likely to take damage. There is the slight problem of "lingering wounds." PCs won't always have a full complement of Wound points if they are pressed into a number of successive battles (even if Vitality is recovered). This makes them (usually the meat shields) a bit more susceptible to being criticaled. 5) Flavor: Try not to get too hung up on descriptors. A PC of mine how ran Star Wars got a bit flustered when I described a sword hit slicing down the length of his arm, when all he did was lose Vitality. Vitality, like hit points, are pure abstraction. A vitality hit can be a near miss, a crashing blow on your shield arm, a sling stone that richocets off your head...whatever. Just save the sword to the gut, or dagger to the throat descriptions for when Wound damage occurs and you'll be fine. 6) Dragon Turtles. Hate to tell you this Cynlas, but you dropped the ball on the Dragon Turtle. A turtle is a Huge sized creature, and it's Wounds are equal to it's Constitution score x2. The turtle should of had 42 Wounds. Granted she would of been badly wounded and possibly failed her Fort save but not instantly killed. So, in the end I like it so far. We're just starting to get into mid-level play so I'll see how it hold water there. Good gaming
FlameLover 09-29-05, 03:39 AM	For Sneak Attacks i would rule that you do the normal +#d6 to vitality normally. When you land a critical hit though you would deal SA damage to wound points equal to the number of dice. It doesn't make sense to me always making it go to Vitality but this way strikes a happy medium i think. Even a Rogue20 will only get an extra +7 damage on a critical hit that's also an SA.
Stev Beren 09-29-05, 09:32 AM	YOU could do a meld or some such> Say, for example, that each level gives you an additional wound point. Or that wound points are twice your COnsititution, of you want to make instakills harder. Or whatever multiplier. TO expand. IN the case of a dragon, you coudl further rule that large creatures have larger wound pools by the nature of their size. Introduce feats which allow the reduction of your opponent's critical range. Make their be more requirements to get the crit range improvers> Reduce damage pools on weapons somewhat. There are many availiable fixes.
MSW 09-29-05, 03:34 PM	Wow, lots of great replies, thanks everyone. So those that have play tested the V/WP variant, would you recommend/use it in a new campaign or return to the standard D&D hitpoint system, knowing now how it works out in playtesting? To me, it seems like more of a boon to the NPCs then the PCs. And Indeed, I can see where it would be easy to get a one hit instant kill critical on the PCs where that can't really happen on them now. (party is at 10th level). When I say the V/WP system nerfs healing, I'm talking about potions. How many Cure Light Wounds potions would it take to cure 20/10 damage? The 1d8 goes to the 20, the 1 goes to the WP. Answer... 10 potions. Under standard D&D hitpoints, half as many potions would cure the same amount of damage (even counting the x2 for the critical hit). So while the system works well with a 10th level cleric (+10 to WP) it kinda nerfs potion based healing completely. And in our party's case (no cleric) it means playing hurt. (which circles us back to the concern over one hit instant kills... They can happen at 16 CON... they WILL happen when you are carrying 10 or more WP's around with you.)
Sigurdur Yorsalfarne 09-29-05, 11:29 PM	Wow, lots of great replies, thanks everyone. So those that have play tested the V/WP variant, would you recommend/use it in a new campaign or return to the standard D&D hitpoint system, knowing now how it works out in playtesting? To me, it seems like more of a boon to the NPCs then the PCs. And Indeed, I can see where it would be easy to get a one hit instant kill critical on the PCs where that can't really happen on them now. (party is at 10th level). When I say the V/WP system nerfs healing, I'm talking about potions. How many Cure Light Wounds potions would it take to cure 20/10 damage? The 1d8 goes to the 20, the 1 goes to the WP. Answer... 10 potions. Under standard D&D hitpoints, half as many potions would cure the same amount of damage (even counting the x2 for the critical hit). So while the system works well with a 10th level cleric (+10 to WP) it kinda nerfs potion based healing completely. And in our party's case (no cleric) it means playing hurt. (which circles us back to the concern over one hit instant kills... They can happen at 16 CON... they WILL happen when you are carrying 10 or more WP's around with you.) I am convinced that W&V has done alot to make the game more flashy and I also like the fact that a critical is not anymore just "double damage", but actually "critical". As far as sneak attacks are concerned, I clearly think that this should purely attribute to wounds. The Ph clearly refers to the rogue having "knowledge of the anatomy", and also refers to a perosn that is taken off gueard, flat-footed and so on. This will imply that any success here leads to serious injuries. But I have balanced that out by letting ANYONE that strikes others flat-footed or so get a hit vs. the wounds. The only keen boost the rogue gets here (to reflect the fact that they are more fierce/vicious) is to add +1 per hit dice he has. this might not seem alot, but imagine a high-level rogue with +6 damage on a critical hit!! Also note that I have put in the damage reduction rules for armor, natural armor and so on, to ALWAYS deduct from any wounds taken. This means armor becomes much more vital than before and rogues will be crying to add at least a padded if they can. Yes, this DOES make it a more deasdly game when someone is caught flat-footed in front of a 15 lvl rogue. It also makes lotsa players think twice before they just jump into anything without thinking twice..
The Harvester 09-30-05, 04:34 AM	But I have balanced that out by letting ANYONE that strikes others flat-footed or so get a hit vs. the wounds. That also means flanking, because flanking is another situation where a rogue can apply his sneak attack? Wow. Imagine some rats which use flanking and helping another rules :eek:
Xeviat-DM 09-30-05, 05:34 AM	One poster said it's hard to describe hits in Wound/Vitality systems; I find it quite the opposite. A hit that deals only VP damage doesn't cause an injury; the character was scratched or bruised, or parried an attack in a way that it caused strain (such as when blocking a very powerful hit with a shield. A hit that deals WP damage has injured you. UA says after taking any WP damage, a character is fatigued (-2 Str and Dex); that's an injury right there (and negates the need for called shot rules too, since this is broad enough to cover everything without being specific). I just ran my first large encounter using WP/VP (though we call VP HP for simplicity). I realized that, even with fatigue after taking wound damage, most NPCs should probably drop after being wounded; only the PCs and other heroic/villanous characters should truely fight to the death. Adding an extra 14 HP to a bunch of orcs really made the fight last too long.
Sigurdur Yorsalfarne 09-30-05, 07:57 AM	That also means flanking, because flanking is another situation where a rogue can apply his sneak attack? Wow. Imagine some rats which use flanking and helping another rules :eek: Yap, I know. But this also means that a bunch of low-lvl thughs ganging up on a high-lvl character in a dark alley has a real shot at taking him out. Which actually brings me beck to the main point here. Being outflanked in medieval combat is BAD and always was. Also note here that feats like Combat Reflexes and abilities like uncanny dodge become more valuable than ever.
Gold Katana 09-30-05, 09:06 AM	Another thing I like about the VP/WP is the death rules. It takes the decision out of my (DM) hands and it becomes a player resolution. There is no hard line between life and death, make saves or don't. The 0 HP rule has actually saved lives in our campaign and led to interesting "crawling and crying" scenarios as badly wounded PC's drag themselves out of fights. Much more realistic. It also allows "bad guys" to possibly survive, as I don't generally go through the formality of doing all the dice rolling after they hit 0. Some are left alive, some already dead, and some unknown. If the PC's want to make sure, they have to check and possibly coup de grace. They shirk from such cold blooded work and often leave a downed but alive foe alone. This also makes the game more realistic, as there is a difference (mercifully) between striking an opponent down in the heat of battle and finishing him off as he lies there helpless.
Jerks 09-30-05, 09:18 AM	Wow, can I have your players Gold Katana? Players shirking away from Coup de Gracing? It takes every GM trick I have in the book to prevent characters from slitting the throats of of every downed and unconcious enemy that they can find. Then comes the 5 minute excuse about moral relativism of striking down an opponent in combat versus killing one that can fight back.
Gold Katana 09-30-05, 10:28 AM	My group is approaching middle-age and I think we all have been through enough (kids, deaths, life in general) that, even though it is a fantasy game/escapism, we still empathize with our foes.
Sigurdur Yorsalfarne 09-30-05, 11:12 AM	My players learn early that I don't find Coup De Grace and good heroic characters very compatible. Yes, I also prefer more mature players, but even in the "young" days most of us never let that slide by. I once made a Wizard LE from LN on the spot after he slit a wounded, bleeding NPC's throat, because they just "could not let him go".. (Same argument was used by the german SS in the Ardennes in 1945 as they shot some 50 US prisoners). Being good doesn't always make it easy to do the right thing, but if there is any sense to the concept of being a true hero, then this should be one of the base atttributes.
Gold Katana 09-30-05, 11:16 AM	Absolutely. We also weigh such actions against alignment. It is too morally easy to fight someone(thing) until they hit 0 hp, and then they are conveniently dead. The alignment shows itself when there are decisions to be made.
Bluntpencil2001 09-30-05, 12:04 PM	Pfft. Letting a dangerous villain live is foolish. You will regret it later. Unless his name happens to be Gollum. Also, I dislike VP/WP. It makes criticals far too scary. It creates paranoid players.
ObsidianIchor 09-30-05, 12:08 PM	I've been on Vit/Wounds for two major campaigns now, and several short run campaigns. I love it! I don't want to go back to straight HP, ever. It gives a sense of what is actually happening through the battle, low Vit is getting tired and exhausted in battle. Taking a wound is most of the time taking a full on blow (maybe not if you're just 1 point into wounds). We also use a modified version where critical hits are as normal, as well as Sneak Attack, and we don't take anything out of wounds directly (except maybe Coup de gras, it doesn't often come up) and we just go through Vit until it's gone.
MSW 09-30-05, 12:58 PM	On the Coup De Grace on downed foes, an argument can be made that it's being merciful to end ones suffering rather than leave them to a long, lingering death. So I don't necessarily agree that doing a Coup De Grace on a downed enemy is an evil act... it could very well be a good act of mercy to end their suffering. "You fought honorably and bravely, let me end your suffering." -- that sort of thing. Back on topic, I guess we will have to see how it goes. I'm still concerned that with our party, the V/WP system is going to lead to a TPK, and to BBEGs that are just way tougher, and easily recover if we can't manage to finish them off in the inital encounter. I do like the death/dying rules, and how the saves just keep going until you basically give up (rather then -10 and your dead.) So pretty much, under this system you can not die unless the DM kills you. (because eventually, no matter how many time you roll or what the penalty, you'll roll that natural 20 and the save makes you stable at 0 wound points.) Now I'm not certain if this is a good thing or a bad thing actually. Only playtesting will really let us know how it works for our 10th level party.
Gold Katana 09-30-05, 01:39 PM	an argument can be made that it's being mercifu Only by the one doing the slitting. I notice my PC's never ask for their suffering to be put to a merciful end.
Gilean 09-30-05, 01:47 PM	Also, I dislike VP/WP. It makes criticals far too scary. It creates paranoid players.I fail to notice the source of dislike. Deadly criticals are a positive thing.
Gold Katana 09-30-05, 02:25 PM	Yes, deadly criticals have had a huge impact on our game - all for the good. The PC's count on them for lightning raids and sniping. They also realize it could, and should, happen to them - as a result, their approach to adventuring in general is much more thoughtful. I understand a lot of people don't want to be bothered with quasi-realism in their games. Neither do I if it leads to complicated resolutions, but this is very straightforward. "Blue warrior needs healing - badly!" :D
Jerks 09-30-05, 03:29 PM	The need to be mindful of your surrondings and to use caution in combat (eventhough they're only orcs) at all levels is one of the best reasons to adopt a Vitality/wound system. Far too often I see my players falling into gamesmanship when it comes to combat and danger. Having Vit/Wound means that they can't do this as reliably...and neither can the NPCs. No longer can high level BBEBGs fearlessly stand toe-to-toe with the players until his past 1/2 vitality before launching his neferious device. No, he'd better have a better plan that that, lest he be crit'd and dropped in the first round. In the end I think it's all fair. Sometime PCs get some easy killls, sometimes someone drops unexpectantly. Oh and as far as Coup de Gracing the villians...my players are a cruel and capricious lot. Alignment just barely restrains their blood-soaked hands. In games without strict alignments (Modern, Future) some characters are just downright well...jerks.
Bluntpencil2001 09-30-05, 03:43 PM	In the end I think it's all fair. Sometime PCs get some easy killls, sometimes someone drops unexpectantly. This sort of randomness always works against the PCs, for the PCs are in every fight, whereas the villains to tend to only be in one fight each. I don't like PCs randomly dying in games I DM. They should die because of their own failings, not poor luck on one occasion.
Jerks 09-30-05, 04:04 PM	This sort of randomness always works against the PCs, for the PCs are in every fight, whereas the villains to tend to only be in one fight each. I don't like PCs randomly dying in games I DM. They should die because of their own failings, not poor luck on one occasion. Well that quote about randomness invariably hurting the PCs isn't completely true. I will agree that it makes lower level foes more dangerous to higher level ones, but in truth that's the bit about the system that appeals to some people. I love to see my PCs prosper. I whince when I roll a 20 and I know that the PC risk serious injury from my next roll. I want players to prosper and survive not because they can take 20 arrow hits before they even think about taking cover, but because they take cover to avoid taking a barrage of 20 arrow hits. Intelligent and logical play is always the goal when I run a game. Randomness isn't a bad thing. Heck, it's why we have dice. Vitality or no vitality I've seen a bad roll of the die destroy a character's day often enough to say that luck is part of the game. Fail a Climb check by more than 5 and it might be a long way down. Roll a 1 on that Save vs. Disintegration..bye bye. Heck I usually play mages so I don't have to roll a d20 (I swear that thing hate me).
Millennium 09-30-05, 07:52 PM	On the Coup De Grace on downed foes, an argument can be made that it's being merciful to end ones suffering rather than leave them to a long, lingering death. So I don't necessarily agree that doing a Coup De Grace on a downed enemy is an evil act... it could very well be a good act of mercy to end their suffering. "You fought honorably and bravely, let me end your suffering." -- that sort of thing. There is generally an unwritten rule -in real life and presumably in-game- that you do not give a "mercy stroke" to someone who doesn't express a desire for one. If the players were to go around and check every downed foe, that would be one thing, but as soon as you CdG a downed foe you're not absoultely sure about then you've crossed the line. Back on topic, I guess we will have to see how it goes. I'm still concerned that with our party, the V/WP system is going to lead to a TPK, and to BBEGs that are just way tougher, and easily recover if we can't manage to finish them off in the inital encounter. Why? If the PCs work under the V/WP system, then so do BBEGs, don't they?
Aazenius 10-03-05, 12:04 AM	There is an alternative to the Vitality/Wound system. I don't know if it is more or less deadly, as I have not played it yet. Basically, you use a modified Massive Damage Threshold system. You take the Death and Dying system (page 121 UA) and apply it to the Massive Damage Threshold system. So each time the character (or opponent) takes damage that equals or beats their MDT they must make a Fortitude save DC 10 + 2 per 10 points of damage taken or become disabled or worse. If the save passes I would say that the character continues on as normal. If the save fails then they are disabled. If the save fails by 10 or more they are dying, if the save fails by 15 or more they are dead. With this system you can keep hit points as they are with a chance for death on a good shot. I would probably use the HD-based Threshold system (MDT = 25 + 2 per Hit Die), instead of the MDT rules found in the DMG. This system scales as the characters gain levels, and makes them able to take more damage at level 20 and beyond, which could also be a problem as characters could end up with MDT over 100. (But then again characters that are 35+ are probably fighting monsters that deal 100 damage on a critical hit)
Cynlas 10-04-05, 04:45 PM	Thanks Jerks for pointing out my error. I had doubled its Vitality rather than Wounds. Would have worked out much better that way :)
Dark Saber 10-04-05, 07:22 PM	I just switched to Star Wars d20 and fell in love with the VP/WP system. It works very well and keeps the PCs on their toes. They are much more thoughtful and strategic in their actions, and often try bluff, diplomacy and intimidate to resolve threats before ever getting into a fight... This results in bad guys getting away all the time, but the players and I (as GM) love it. I can always count on them to do the honorable thing now, LOL, whether out of fear, compassion or convenience doesn't matter. I get to keep my bad guys around a lot longer and everyone has more fun... "Oh, no! You again!" Sometimes, the PCs even manage to turn the bad guys into temporary or permanent allies as a result. If the bad guys feel they can trust the PCs from their prior actions (letting them go, even rewarding them on departure), then they are more willing to listen to them in future and cooperate to varying degrees if they have that option (thier BBEG isn't looking over their shoulder). This is often the only way IMC that certain obstacles can be overcome. The party and the bad guys run are each attempting to pull off the same mission when they are confronted by a third, overwhelming menace hostile to both sides. If the good guys and bad guys don't put aside their differences, then they are both destroyed. Naturally, they resume their hostilities after the new threat is vanquished, but often on a much more civil level as they have a newfound respect for each other. Compromises can often be reached, and the PCs are usually quite accomodating (within reason) to their "allies" if they act honorably. Super evil psycho-freaks are usually captured for trial, or killed if they cannot be safely apprehended. In D&D, we just killed everything for the XP value and because we didn't ever want to see the bad guys again, LOL. Star Wars (and a dash of Jedi morality) changed all that. ;) I would not run a d20 game without VP/WP at this point. That said, if you don't want to convert, you could try running Conan OGL (very nice combat system), or A Game of Thrones OGL. Both use reduced HP progression, armor as DR, etc. Conan has no HP gained after 10th level. AGOT has just a few HP gained per level (1-2 HP!). I'm done with gaming super high fantasy (default D&D/FR), so anything "grim and gritty" is good for me and my group. YMMV.
Jerks 10-04-05, 08:35 PM	Thanks Jerks for pointing out my error. I had doubled its Vitality rather than Wounds. Would have worked out much better that way :) Hey no problem. As long as I'm pointing out other people's mistakes I don't have to admit to my own. ;) and to Dark Saber.. I wholeheartedly agree with you that it is hard for me to go back to a hit points system now that I've tasted Wound/Vitality. I've found that it both makes PCs more durable at low levels and keeps them "honest" as they rise in levels. I'll never go back...and no one can make me!!! *descends into mad cackles of laughter***
MSW 10-10-05, 12:52 PM	Thanks everyone for your input. I still need to play test the V/WP system to be certain, but you've all helped me adjust to the idea of it at least from your feedback.
Sigurdur Yorsalfarne 10-10-05, 06:21 PM	After testing it out a bit, I have decided to change the rules a bit further. At the same time, I follow all the original intentions in the UA, since I found the system to be working well. These are the changes/clarifications I DID: *No more sneak attacks for rogues, instead, they get fighter bonus feats. Same applies to prestige classes that get sneak attacks in their progressions. Note that the rogue still is ore likely to score critical hits due to surprises or stealth. *Anyone that either attacks anyone that is flat-footed or unaware with their backs turned to the specific attacker gets a critical threat with ANY hit. Which makes even a puny commoner dangerous if he somehow managed to attack an adventurer caught unaware. *Armor DR (from UA) converts any wound damage (up to DR rating) to vitality damage. This favors use of heavy armor more and also makes it more "protective" rather than "shielding". Barbarians and others with DR now get much more "feel" of being tough. Grazing (VITALITY) versus bodily injury (WOUNDS): This system was originally developed for Star Wars RPG as a more cinematic method of handling damage than the regular D&D system. While characters can still improve the amounts of physical strain as they go up in level, one single lucky attack could potentially take down most characters at certain unique situations. VITALITY: A characters hit points (HP) is the characters vitality. These are a measure of a character’s ability to turn any directed hit into a graze or glancing blow with no serious consequences. Just like before the HP’s keep going up as a character gains a level, giving high-level characters more ability to shrug off attacks. Most types of damage in combat will reduce vitality only, unless no vitality points are left. WOUNDS: Wound points (WP) measure how much true bodily injury a character can withstand before becoming disabled, dying or die. Damage will only reduce WP’s if a critical hit is scored. A character has a base WP’s equal to his CON. In addition, Toughness feat and other feats with similar descriptions that enhances a characters physical stamina also increase the WP’s. Spells that enhance constitution and the Barbarian rage increase BOTH vitality and wounds. CRITICAL HITS: *Characters hit can incur critical threats in the following three conditions: -Weapon threat number is reached. - ANY hit when flatfooted. - Struck from behind when unaware of that specific attack. *All critical hits are still a threat that needs a confirmed normal hit. It deals same damage as a normal hit, but that damage is subtracted from Wound Points rather than Vitality Points. For that reason, no weapon has a multiplier for its critical hits. A Character’s damage reduction (DR), if any, converts some of the damage to vitality loss and remaining damage (if any) is Wound Points. A weapon with x3 or x4 multiplier has the threat range expanded with 1 or 2 points. *Rogues are now considered “Martial Rogues” (Unearthed Arcana). This means they get bonus fighter feats as a fighter of same level instead of any sneak attack bonuses. Any time a prestige class grants any extra bonus dice, one bonus fighter feat is gained instead. CONSEQUENCES OF INCURRING WOUNDS: * The location of the wound is determined by a hit-location roll, where (in medium-sized vs. medium sized) 1 is dominant lower extremity, 2 is non-dominant lower extremity, 3-5 is below the ribcage, 6-7 is above the ribcage, 8 is dominant upper extremity, 9 is non-dominant upper extremity and 0 is the head. Size adjustments are applied as +/-2 increments with each size difference. (d2/d4/d6/d8/d10/d8+2/d6+4/d4+6/d2+8) *A character with 0 vitality points can no longer avoid taking real damage. Any additional damage he receives is automatically considered a critical hit. *A character that takes any wound damage must succeed on a Fortitude saving throw (DC 5 + number of wound points lost from the attack or become stunned for 1d4 rounds (secretly determined by the DM). Another character may take a standard action to help the character end the stunned condition at once. Each time a character sustains a critical hit incurs a cumulative -1 on Fortitude Saving Throws. *The first time a character fails a saving throw for wound damage, he becomes fatigued until he has rested for 8 hours or received complete healing for that wound, whichever comes first. *A character below 0 wound points is disabled and must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. A failure means he falls unconscious and is dying. Failing the saving throw by 10 or more means the character dies if the hit is in the trunk or head, or gets permanent disability in affected extremity. *Each turn on his round, a dying character must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 +1 per turn AFTER the attack) to become stable. Any failure here means the character is dead. A success on the save by 5 or more means the character becomes stable, but remains unconscious. A success by 10 or more means the character regains consciousness, but is still disabled. Just like before, a heal check DC 15 can also stabilize a dying character. DAMAGE REDUCTION (DR): *Armor, magic, special abilities all can be combined *The damage taken to a character’s wounds is subtracted from the DR, if any. This reduced damage is converted into lost vitality points, unless none are left, in which case they become “temporary” wound damage. *Any non-lethal damage subtracted from DR is simply ignored. I implemented this system with fear that it would just become a hampering to play, but it has actually tuned out that players love it. Also, rogues now tend to be even MORE clever, cunning and stealthy than before. Pure wizards now become significantly compromised in melee combat, something I feel rhymes well with all images we have of wizards. Likewise, warriors now become much more destructive than they are protected. Just imagine a power attack from a high-level ranger against his hated enemy, when that one is flat-footed. This system is not for the unexperienced DM, that doesn't know how to balance battles, but if you love tactical combat in D&D and can handle the extra details, this system is brilliant ;)
lemaas 10-18-05, 11:19 PM	Found a interesting point that was brought up in another thread, here are the links and the copy of the text. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=490154 Jerks said: In my group, we decided to just leave it at Vitality. The thinking is that in "normal" D&D sneak attack damage is NOT multiplied by a critical hit (nor is any other extra die of damage on top of a damage roll). So in the event of a critical hit, the weapon damage is applied directly to wounds and the sneak attack damage applies to Vitality first. Converting sneak attacks to wounds directly makes it far too powerful, and changes the nature of extra damage die in the game from the original design. Converting it on a 1 die to 1 pt basis actually weakens sneak attack, especially when facing huge creatures with bonus wound pts. Applying it to Vitality, in our experience, is vastly superior to doing anything else and keeps the power of the sneak attack directly in line with the core game....IMHO. AND Yes, in my system once you're out of Vitality the sneak attack damage goes to wounds on a 1-to-1 basis. I feel this is the most fair way to do it because as I stated before, large creatures with bonus Wounds would have an unfair buffer against sneak attacks if you did it the other way. About the only classes/creatures that are at a disadvantage under this system are high level NPC classes, but seeing as how these should not be players it doesn't really matter. and Xeviat-DM responded with You know what Jerks, you're right. The damage isn't multiplied in a critical hit, thus it shouldn't be added to a critical hit. It's hard to picture sneak attacks now, though, but sneak attacks were never "crippling" unless the player took feats to alter the nature of their sneak attack (hamstring, arterial strike, ect.). I'm going to play it this way in my games; I think that will make it work out better in the end. I would have to agree, the system that Jerks in using makes sense. Yea, rogue are deadly, but the fact is, in the "standard" system, they don't do anything that is more physically "damaging" unless they have a feat that lets them convert the damge to a hamstring, etc. Perhaps, to still give rogues the "really deadly in combat when I can sneak attack" option, make some kind of Feat that a rogue can take that allows some of his sneak attack damage to convert over to wound on a critical strike. Maybe each time they take the feat, they can convert one die of damage into wound on a successful sneak attack and crit combo. Maybe put a base attack requirment of +4 or something on it. What do you all think?
Jerks 10-18-05, 11:32 PM	That sounds like a reasonable feat. In this system, that would put in slightly less powerful than "true" wounding abilities that allow you to do a point of Constitution damage, but useful nonetheless. Hmm, that gives me a though. Would it make sense to change Wounding weapons to weapons that do automatic Wound damage instead of Con damage? Just a thought.
lemaas 10-19-05, 09:00 AM	Changing Wounding weapons to deal actualy wound damage would be fine I think, as otherwise they are not only lowering wounds, they are also lowering Vitality (a con loss affects both). Do you use the DR system Jerks? If so, how does it affect damage to Vitality / Wounds? Thinking about using it, but want to keep it balanced with monsters DR, i.e. ways to get past it and such.
Jerks 10-19-05, 10:22 AM	Yep, we've also been using the armor as DR variant as found in Unearthed Arcana (1/2 armor bonus becomes DR X/-). As suggested in the Vitality/Wounds system, the DR from armor (or anything else for that matter) is bypassed on a successful critical hit. Our campaign just hit 4th level last Friday, and so far it's worked fine. It's worth noting that the armor as DR system proposed in works almost exactly opposite of how it works in Star Wars. In Star Wars, DR only kicks in when you take Wounds, so it very specifically protects against critical hits (or any hit for NPC classes) and it not as much use to heroic characters. This results in a game where most characters don't bother wearing armor...which if you've seen Star Wars makes pefect sense. One of my players runs Star Wars, and the difference in how DR works bugs him a little bit. I've brainstormed a little bit and I've come up with the following houserule that I've thought about implementing. We haven't actually this yet, but I figure I'll put it out there. Armor as DR variant [untried houserule] 1/2 of armor value (rounded down) becomes DR/*. This DR value is subtracted from the armor bonus of the armor (as listed). DR/* only protects a character from weapon attacks that deal wound damage, including any results leading to a critical hit. Note: As the type of DR has changed it no longer stacks with DR/-. When used with the Vitality/Wound system, this is the only type of DR that is not bypassed on a critical hit. I think it's a playable variant rule and it might make armor as DR "even" through-out levels. By that I'm refering to the sidebar in Unearthed Arcana, that mentions that armor as DR is more effective against low-level foes than high damage monsters. Having a last refuge of protection when you are crit'd might be nice. Good gaming.
lemaas 10-19-05, 04:55 PM	Was reading over your untried variant and I THINK I understand what you area saying. So at say, first level, a chain shirt (normally +4 AC bonus) would provide only +2 ac bonus, but would also provide 2 DR against any kind of wound damage? Also, when a level 15 warrior gets that mithrial full plate +5 (normally a +13 [8+5] AC bonus) it would provide only a AC bonus of 6(.5) and a DR of 6(.5) for any wound damage? I was thinking something close to this, but mine was a little different. Armor provides a AC bonus like normal, but magical armor provides a bonus to AC OR to wound DR, dictated when the armor is enchanted. Thus, you could have a chain shirt +5 that provides +9 to AC OR a chain shirt +5 that provides +4 to AC and DR 5 to wound damage. Basically it fits the concept of magic helping (either you don't get hit as often, or you don't get his as bad but more often) without making magical armor uber powerful (which it would be if you provided the bonus to both). To continue the above example, a set of full plate +5 could provide +13 to AC OR +8 to ac and a DR of 5 to wound damage. If you really wanted to get the best armor, you would probably go adamantine full plate, which would provide +8 AC, DR 3/- against Vitality damage and then 5 DR against wound damage. (I don't think admantine and magical bonus to DR should stack, makes it too powerful). This still provides a use for the Invulnerabilty enchantment (as it applies to Vitality damage), allows damage reduction against wound damage (by shifting the enchantment over), and still allows people to have [armor type] + [bonus to AC] + fortification (which would reduce the damage from a critical hit). I am still trying to work out the whole fortification could possible negate critical hit damage to wounds, seems a little powerful for the cost.
Cynlas 10-21-05, 02:14 AM	OK, since most of you on this thread use and are comfortable with the VP/WP system, here is a question for you: How do you handle those attacks that automatically multiply damage, but do not produce automatic "criticals", such as the double/triple damage from Mounted Charges? My first thought was to adjust the threat range of the attack, but then I dumped that thought as this doubling occurs with or without a critical being scored. Therefore I don't believe that it should be reduced to a "critical enhancing" effect. Note also, I am not in favor of some of the variants discussed, such as simply automatically causing "wound damage" or what not as occasionally suggested for Sneak Attacks. While such treatment certainly favors PCs, and sounds "realistic", I feel that any such treatments would ultimately devalue the purpose and value of Vitality, though I realize that some of you disagree. I have so far simply treated the attacks normally, that is doubling the damage inflicted; if a normal hit, to VP, or if a crit, to WP, as the UA system directs for any other attack.
Malkonnen 10-24-05, 03:50 PM	One issue I see with the WP/VP system, is doesn't it devalue direct damage spells for casters? Since you can't crit with a fireball, all you can do with it is VP damage until they get to 0 VP. Now one could easily argue that this is a good way to help balance the martial classes against the casters, esp. at higher levels. But from a realism perspective, does it make sense that getting caught in the blast radius of a large explosion really translate to the "close call" or "tiring" damage? Yet, like sneak attack, allowing multiple dice of damage to go straight to wounds is instakill. Would it work to maybe have it work something like: on a failed save you take WP damage = 1 point per die the spell would inflict, and on a successful save you take half damage (as normal) to VP. So if you're hit by a 10d6 fireball you either take 10 WP or 5d6 VP, depending on your save. Does that seem fair/balanced? As for the sneak attack debate, to me it seems like conceptually sneak attack should be all about bypassing an opponents defenses to strike at a vital location. So to me it definitely should go straight to WP. However from a balance perspective, adding extra damage ontop of essentially a situational auto crit ability is overkill. So making SA just that, effectively an auto crit, when the situation arrises seems balanced to me. However the new problem is how to spread out the benefits of the ability over several levels, since SA is normally a progression of damage. If you just get an extra +1 to damage per additional die you would get, it's really not that attractive to keep advancing in rogue. You'll just end up with all your fighters "leveling dipping" in that first level of rogue to seriously improve their combat effectiveness, and all your former rogues abandoning the class after a few levels. Maybe spread out the situations when you can use SA? Level one only vs. a flat footed opponent, at 3rd vs. any opponent who's lost Dex, 5th vs. a flanked oppoent, ... Or maybe just make SA be a bonus to threat range? Each die of SA translates into +1 to threat range. So a 1st level rogue isn't all that much more deadly than a standard 1st lvl fighter, but by 19th level a rogue should be a truly frightening opponent, as he'll have a minimum threat range of 11-20 so at least 50% of his hits will be crits. Though as a rogue there will still be the trade off that with 3/4 BAB, some of his expanded threat range may go to waste as he may need, say a 13+, just to get a standard hit. So as I'd do it, you're going to end up with fighters w/ a small chance 5-15% to one-shot enemies (no real limitations), rogues w/ a 50% to probably 2-shot enemies (because of the average damage per hit difference) but limited to specific situations, and casters being able to possibly 2-shot enemies (en masse) if they fail their saves, but limited by spells/day. I would probably remove all crit buffing feats, magic, etc. or at least drastically increase their requirements/cost. I think it could work. Malk
Malkonnen 10-24-05, 03:53 PM	OK, since most of you on this thread use and are comfortable with the VP/WP system, here is a question for you: How do you handle those attacks that automatically multiply damage, but do not produce automatic "criticals", such as the double/triple damage from Mounted Charges? ... I have so far simply treated the attacks normally, that is doubling the damage inflicted; if a normal hit, to VP, or if a crit, to WP, as the UA system directs for any other attack. That's how I would keep it. Think of it as a spirited charge being an extremely powerful attack that will either "wear you out" far more than a standard attack due to having to deflect the rather forceful blow (VP damage), or being an incredibly deadly attack should you manage to take it to the face. *wince*
super*rare 11-08-05, 01:53 AM	i do not think an auto crit on flat footers by rogues is a good idea. if they they roll a crit fine, if not they just wipe out a bunch of vitality. works for me. the feat called Improved Toughness give +1 Wound Point/level! for softer crits, roll a d10. on a 1-5 use the table on p. 27(DMG) called Damage To Specific Areas. roll a d6 for location and add "AC" to the list on Eye,Ear,and Foot/Leg. the penalties do not stack, but you can ignore this in keeping with the "critical" nature of the hit. the Endurance feat adds a +4 bonus to the Wound Point loss Fort save to avoid being stunned. the Diehard feat cancels the Fort save at 0 Wound Points. if your VP is full but WP is not, each die roll for a potion converts to 1 WP is anyone using Damage Conversion and Reserve Points along with VP/WP?
Jerks 11-08-05, 08:02 AM	the feat called Improved Toughness give +1 Wound Point/level! I'm not sure about this one. I know that the book says that anything which adds bonus hit points adds bonus wounds instead, but for balance sake and because the feat adds hit points per Hit Die instead of a flat bonus to hit points, I would give the character +1 Vitality/level. You amound of Wounds is not affected by your levels so Improved Toughness would seem to be a poor fit. Regular old Toughness would add +3 Wounds though. This way both feats are good for different reasons.
Xeviat-DM 11-08-05, 12:10 PM	Sneak attack does "feel" like an attack that is an automatic critical hit, but that is very difficult to do in most systems. The standard wound/vitality system assumes all weapons have a x1 critical multiplier; mine is slightly different and axes have x2 while scythes have x3 (I've balanced them vs. 19-20 and 18-20). Doing things like increasing threat range is interesting; autocritical would favor the 19-20, higher damage weapon over the 18-20 lower damage weapon. But sneak attack and critical hit are both associated with creatures with vitals. Creatures that cannot be criticalled (and usually don't have wound points), can be sneak attacked: perhaps it would be good if we could make alterations to sneak attack to have it be more of a critical attack. Back stab used to be multipliers after all.
Durenden 11-09-05, 09:46 AM	Xeviat, How has having x2 and x3 crit multipliers worked out for you? Has it caused PC's and/or monsters to drop any faster or more often? I like the V/WP system but not how it robs weapons of some uniqueness. I don't want to hijack this thread so I started a new one discussing the issue here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7708763#post7708763)
FriendoftheDork 12-05-05, 02:34 PM	Ok guys I've just tried out the WP/VP system in UA. The results were not all good. Now, me and most of the players were somewhat used to the idea as we have played SWRPG, but some concepts in death and dying were all new. Another problem was the nature of low level combat. Now, the rules suggest increasing the CR of low level NPCs as they take alot more punishment before they drop unconscious. However instead I made a small fix: I lowered their WPs. Basically I figured how many HPs they would normally have had, and replaced it with wound points instead. Thus my 1st level warrior dwarves with 14 con and toughness feat only got 9 wp (4+2+3) instead of 17 as they should have, and I kept the CR at 1/2 instead of 1. The 4th level warrior got his full 14 wp though, as he had 4d8+8 hps worth. Also I changed NPC CR from CR=class level-1 to CR=level/2, as the lack of vitality is a real drawback compared to the heroic classes. What do you think of that? Anyway, back to the test experience... 1 player disliked the system overall and also dislikes the SW system, and thought the saving throws were too many and didn't make sense. Another didn't like that both PCs and NPCs got stunned all the time, instead of being knocked out as in SW, and that even if reduced to less than 0 WP they still could remain disabled with a save, time and time again. One of the problem might have been that the DC to resist stun was set to 10+wounds dealth, instead of 5. This worked for me in star wars, but not here. But the main problem that evening was probably that I set the EL way too high, and I didn't have a paper version of the UA rules in front of me so I was not that condifent in enforcing the dying and damage rules. Still I'm not sure I want to give the system up, especially at mid-high levels HPs become a buffer that makes the PCs to invulnerable, I think a singel dagger attack should pose SOME danger to a PC, even a hero. I realize this system makes it more dangerous at higher levels, both for heros and villains, but I think it's worth it.
cohenthebarbarian 12-06-05, 04:29 AM	Critical damage only does base damage dice plus enhancement bonus of weapon. e.g. Longsword does 1d8 wounds, Magic shortsword +1 would do 1d6 +1 wounds, acid orb 1d8, etc. All extra damage from strength, sneak attack, power attack etc, affects vitality first. You could also say that for spells requiring a save that if a 1 is rolled and then a second save is failed then wound damage is taken. 6th level fireball could do 1d6 wound points, 5d6 vitality. Spells that don't require a save or attack roll always affect vitality first. This way it stops all those big hitting critters and heroes from wiping someone out in one hit yet keeping the system mildly exciting.
Xeviat-DM 12-06-05, 04:47 AM	All extra damage from strength, sneak attack, power attack etc, affects vitality first. Is this your take on it, because if it isn't, that's not the way I understand the system. This is how I've changed it to run more smoothly in my games. First, armor needs to provide some sort of DR: currently I'm using 1/2 AC as DR as suggested in Unearthed Arcana, but I may eventually use a Starwars style Armor is all DR (only vs. wound damage) and give players a level based AC adjustment. Second, I removed the stun part: being fatigued by wound damage is penalty enough in my opinion. Third, I use the alternate death and dying rules, but with a small change: there are negative Wound points; when reduced to 0 wounds, you are exhausted; you must make a fortitude save when reduced to negative wounds to resist dying (DC = 10 + 1 per every -5 damage below 0): a failed save means you are unconscious and dying, and a save failed by 10 or more means you are dead. Fourth, I edited Diehard: While unconscious and dying, you automatically stabilize. While disabled, you may take strenuous action without risk of furthering your injuries (you do not need to make fortitude saves to resist dying when taking strenuous action while disabled). While disabled, when you take additional damage from any source, you are not assumed to be automatically dying unless you fail your fortitude save. Additionally, when first reduced to negative wound points, if you fail your save and are dying, you may choose to be disabled instead. You may only choose this when first reduced to negative wound points. Fifth, and lastly, I have NPCs act appropriately when ever they take wound damage; NPC class mooks (like the fodder warriors I often use) tend to flee or surrender when they take wound damage; NPCs with adventuring classes will tend to fight more defensively and look for a way to escape; NPC BBEGs or their well trained minions will usually fight to the death. I'm looking for ways to make this an actual check so it's more official, but for now it works well. I also have NPCs with vitality points; with the change to how they react when they take wound damage, fights aren't any longer (infact they're quicker, especially if there's a crit happy character in the group).
FriendoftheDork 12-06-05, 05:08 AM	Critical damage only does base damage dice plus enhancement bonus of weapon. e.g. Longsword does 1d8 wounds, Magic shortsword +1 would do 1d6 +1 wounds, acid orb 1d8, etc. All extra damage from strength, sneak attack, power attack etc, affects vitality first. You could also say that for spells requiring a save that if a 1 is rolled and then a second save is failed then wound damage is taken. 6th level fireball could do 1d6 wound points, 5d6 vitality. Spells that don't require a save or attack roll always affect vitality first. This way it stops all those big hitting critters and heroes from wiping someone out in one hit yet keeping the system mildly exciting. Well that's a nice suggestin of you want to make it impossible to kill someone in one critical hit, and only fair if you want to nerf sneak attack and other extra damage in the first place. But really, I want a game where there is a risk, no matter how small, that a character can die in one strike. So i let sneak attack affect wound points without lowering it to 1 wound, but it doesen't bypass vitality except on a crit.
MSW 12-06-05, 06:25 PM	Well we got a chance to play test the V/WP system last week. It's very much 90% just like normal D&D HPs, up until you get to zero V/HPs or when a critical is scored. We went through the whole battle with only 1 critical scored and confirmed. (2 others were scored, but failed to confirm). That one critical took out one BBEG that we were hardly able to scratch prior to that. One of the pcs got to zero V/Wp and had to do the save roll thing several time. It sort of occured to us that, unless the opponents do something to guarentee death -- it's really, really hard to die in the V/WP system, because eventually you are going to roll a 20 and autosave. And even if there is a wizard blasting away with area attacks, you are at zero V/WP and can't get any lower -- so blast away. After the battle, what I was worried about (potions) showed itself. It took 8 cure lt wounds potions to raise the characters wound points to the point of no penalty. Later, however, we learned that we could trade in our 50 gp 1st level cure light wounds potions for 250gp 5th level cure light wounds potions. That pretty much evened things out, since that way you get 5 wound points back for each potion without having to spend 5 rounds drinking a 5 pack of potions. I'm still concerned that the system isn't going to work out in the long run though. Not so much worried anymore about the pcs dropping as much as what is going to happen the first time the pcs score some critical hits and demolish the encounter in a round or two because of the system the Dm insisted on using "for realism".
Jerks 12-06-05, 09:04 PM	Yeah, for the most part it's business as usual. The bank of Wound points and the save system for dying does make PCs more survivable. Which is a good thing. I don't like the static save vs. death no matter what damage you took. DC 15 is laughable at higher levels and might be rather hard at early levels. If you dig a little in Unearthed Arcana you'll see that the damage save system uses a similar mechanic, except that the save scales with the amount of damage that dropped you to zero, (DC 10 +2 per 10 points of damage dealt by attack or effect). This will vary it up a bit and make big hit monsters a bit more dangerous.
FriendoftheDork 12-07-05, 03:59 AM	Well if you are staggered or stable and you take further damage I think you're automatically dying. If not I think that's a good house rule. But yeah a static DC 15 is not good, better have the save scale somewhat. How about +1 DC for every 2 damage you took? BTW a character did die using this system when I tested it. He dropped to 0 wounds, failed his DC 15 save. His turn, and he fails his DC 10 save, dead right there. Those saves are dangerous at low level. I dislike the rules for Coup de Grace, they are much less dangerous than standard. It's actually quite hard to die from one at mid-high level.
Jerks 12-07-05, 10:31 AM	Yeah, the Coup de Grace rules may be a bit weak. You could use the same format and just adjust the numbers a bit. As written: Fort DC 10 + damage dealt You could easily go with Fort DC 15 or 20 + damage dealt. It should be damned hard for anyone to resist a coup de grace. Or you could up the input from damage Fort DC 10 + 2x to 5x damage dealt (depending on weapon critical multiplier). As a side note, the coup de grace rules have never come up in my rules. The Bad Guys have yet to be in a position to attempt one on a player (one of the many reasons why every PC should have a battle buddy), and the players have never tried to coup de grace any NPC worthy enough of the DM even bothering to roll a save. Random-arse goblin #14 doesn't really need to roll. If the PCs take the time and effort to coup de grace him just let him die.
War Angel 12-07-05, 02:12 PM	IMO VP/WP is terrible for D&D all the way, and here is why! As a DM I like using "You have been hit, and hit here." SO now you may take penalties to skills and attacks possibly. If your leg is hit you lose move speed and such. Also that would take away some great RPing elements. My Paladin was struck with an arrow to the chest, and it did minimal damage. I stated that my paladin reached down and snapped the arrow off so it would impeed his attacks, without making a sound. Or my fighter that continued to fight with a dagger stuck in his shoulder, and several arrows in his back. It makes for better RPing all the way round the board, and it is realistic imo. WP and crits doing wound damage is a bad way to go and it has ended many a tough encounter before it's time. I had Assaj Ventress come and fight a group of level 4 jedi. She would not have killed them, but it was more storyline. Well the first jedi to attack crited the pants of her right off the bat leaving her 3 WPs. SO I had to make her retreat before anything was accomplished. WP system stinks the place up imo. Its a great concept bu that small amount of WP kills it. Perhaps it should be double the con scoe instead.
FriendoftheDork 12-07-05, 02:51 PM	IMO VP/WP is terrible for D&D all the way, and here is why! As a DM I like using "You have been hit, and hit here." SO now you may take penalties to skills and attacks possibly. If your leg is hit you lose move speed and such. Also that would take away some great RPing elements. My Paladin was struck with an arrow to the chest, and it did minimal damage. I stated that my paladin reached down and snapped the arrow off so it would impeed his attacks, without making a sound. Or my fighter that continued to fight with a dagger stuck in his shoulder, and several arrows in his back. It makes for better RPing all the way round the board, and it is realistic imo. WP and crits doing wound damage is a bad way to go and it has ended many a tough encounter before it's time. I had Assaj Ventress come and fight a group of level 4 jedi. She would not have killed them, but it was more storyline. Well the first jedi to attack crited the pants of her right off the bat leaving her 3 WPs. SO I had to make her retreat before anything was accomplished. WP system stinks the place up imo. Its a great concept bu that small amount of WP kills it. Perhaps it should be double the con scoe instead. HUh? You're saying that wp is bad because with hp you use location damage? That should work even better in vp/wp system as a hit to wounds is a REAL hit and not just scratches. And how can you say it's more realistic to have a fighter fight with a dagger in his back and lots of arrows? If an arrow hits you in D&D and does little damage then it's probably not stuck in the target at all. Yeah an unlucky crit can end an encounter quickly, but heck so can hp do. Or a well thought out spell. If you want to preserve your villain you need to use some magic or item to protect her.
Gold Katana 12-07-05, 03:20 PM	We've been using VP/WP in Age of Worms. Also, natural armor, armor, and shield count as DR (not AC), with that number converted to a die roll for the actual reduction. It is all working quite well, so far, and we are pleased. It is certainly making for more sweating palms and, with the chance of a quick demise, a heroic charge is truly that - heroic.
War Angel 12-07-05, 03:23 PM	HUh? You're saying that wp is bad because with hp you use location damage? That should work even better in vp/wp system as a hit to wounds is a REAL hit and not just scratches. And how can you say it's more realistic to have a fighter fight with a dagger in his back and lots of arrows? If an arrow hits you in D&D and does little damage then it's probably not stuck in the target at all. Yeah an unlucky crit can end an encounter quickly, but heck so can hp do. Or a well thought out spell. If you want to preserve your villain you need to use some magic or item to protect her. Do understand that when you use VP/WP when you take VP damage you are not hit? So thats what I meant. You never take a hit using this system unless your VP are gone or you get crited. Well all arrows do small amounts of damage. A +5 arrow that rolled a 4 for damage is 9 damage? Thats nothing compared to my fighters 150 HPs. SO arrows that stick into people kill them? Your imagination needs some work or watch some movies or read some good books. Yer missing the whole point of my post. With VP I will tell you something like...You barely escape the incoming sword ( a hit but just VP), and in D&D like a realistic battle. The dagger hit you hard in the shoulder, the only stopping the daggers descent into your flesh was it's hilt! Now the dagger just did 5 damage, and that VP loss was 5 VP. Which sounded better for RPing in D&D? Gimme HPs anyday and twice on Sunday. I have GMed many a star wars game and I honestly hate VP/WP system.
BladeMage_1 12-07-05, 06:00 PM	I like the VP/WP system and I am planning to put into D&D soon. I hate saying "You are hit" because it degrades combat to a hit or miss battleship game. With VP you can be creative about it "His axe comes in for a close call, however you guide the downward thrust away with your sword", etc. Plus in the movies we do not see Aragorn get hit 10 times with an orc's axe and still stand (After all, it took 3 arrows to kill Boromir), so VP/WP adds to cinematic effect. To post somthing you don't already know, Jedi Counceling 76 (Wizo_Hutt) did a variant on softer criticals and "leaky vitality", in the link below: Jedi Counceling 76 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20051013jc76) I figure I'm going to make Armor into DR and create Defense Bonuses for the classes. I was thinking Armor could provide AC and DR since I'd want Armor to be more useful in D&D than SWRPG, meaning it affects VP too.
FriendoftheDork 12-08-05, 02:42 AM	Do understand that when you use VP/WP when you take VP damage you are not hit? So thats what I meant. You never take a hit using this system unless your VP are gone or you get crited. Well all arrows do small amounts of damage. A +5 arrow that rolled a 4 for damage is 9 damage? Thats nothing compared to my fighters 150 HPs. SO arrows that stick into people kill them? Your imagination needs some work or watch some movies or read some good books. Yer missing the whole point of my post. With VP I will tell you something like...You barely escape the incoming sword ( a hit but just VP), and in D&D like a realistic battle. The dagger hit you hard in the shoulder, the only stopping the daggers descent into your flesh was it's hilt! Now the dagger just did 5 damage, and that VP loss was 5 VP. Which sounded better for RPing in D&D? Gimme HPs anyday and twice on Sunday. I have GMed many a star wars game and I honestly hate VP/WP system. That's the difference between vp in star wars and D&D. In star wars blasters and lightsabers are so deadly that even a scratch would affect a character. In D&D however "near hits" are not necessary at all. So vp damage is really the same as low hp damage in D&D - scratches, not penatrating armor but still hurting, like hell, bruising.... and wp is serious damage like a dagger sticking in you or being pinchcushioned from arrows. You don't seem to know what 3rd ed hps represents, for all your vaunted experience. hps represents the ability to turn a serious blow to a less lethal one, so instead of having your head chopped off you are only scratched. Heck a hp hit doesen't even have to draw blood at all, it's abstract. Of course some times it means pure toughness and resilience also, but a 150 hp fighter taking 7 damage is not getting a dagger in his back driven into the hilt, he's barely scratched. And yes I know that getting 10 daggers (7*10=70) daggers driven into the hilt in your body will kill anyone pretty quick so don't say it is realistic. Even a single arrow sticking into your body will impair you severely and COULD kill you outright. Using wp, a 1d8+3 arrow can't even kill most characters with 12+ con, but it will impair them and could possibly stun them. Makes it alot more realistic. Actually Boromir, taking several arrows to take him down, and despite the fact that he should have fallen he got up again... that's the perfect movie example of the diehard feat :) But even that cannot stop him from dying heroicly in the end, something your 150 hp fighter just can't do. The main advantage of vp vs hp is healing time, 1vp/hour vs 1hp/day.
Luega 12-08-05, 05:16 AM	Yeah, I can't remember if this has been touched in this thread so far, but how does the Diehard feat work with the VP/WP system from UA?
FriendoftheDork 12-08-05, 05:48 AM	Yeah, I can't remember if this has been touched in this thread so far, but how does the Diehard feat work with the VP/WP system from UA? It's not mentioned in UA at all. So you can either not use the feat at all or adopt it. I would have it work as similarily as in the hp system as possibly, apapt it to the dying rules in UA. That means those reduced to 0 wp will automatically be conscious, but if they are hit again they save or die. I'd also allow them to do strenous activity without automatically become unconscious, but they'll still have to make fortitude save DC 10+1 per previous check or die. What do you think about that?
Luega 12-08-05, 07:19 AM	That's how I'd do it. The problem is that the feat is designed around the concept of negative HP, which the VP/WP don't use. That said, I prefer the 0HP and "save when dying" rules better than negative HP. It more dependent on the characters abilities (saves) than a flat percentage roll, and it's more unpredictable when someone falls in battle as there's no set amount of time before you expires (which is part of the whole deal with VP/WP).
Jerks 12-08-05, 08:50 AM	Yeah, when drafting my houserules I ran into this very same problem. So I redrafted the Diehard feat. DIEHARD [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Endurance. Benefit: When reduced to dying you may choose to act as if you were disabled. If you do not choose to act as if disabled you immediately become unconscious and stable. When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some free actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you must make a Fortitude save DC 10, +1 for each Fort save versus dying you've made since being reduced to 0 Wounds. If you fail the save, you die. If you succeed on the save by less than 5, you fall unconscious and have to start making Fort saves to stabilize every round. If you succeed on the save by 5 or more, you remain conscious and can continue to act as if disabled.
FriendoftheDork 12-08-05, 09:28 AM	Yeah, when drafting my houserules I ran into this very same problem. So I redrafted the Diehard feat. DIEHARD [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Endurance. Benefit: When reduced to dying you may choose to act as if you were disabled. If you do not choose to act as if disabled you immediately become unconscious and stable. When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some free actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you must make a Fortitude save DC 10, +1 per Fort save versus dying you've made since being reduced to 0 Wounds. If you fail the save, you die. If you succeed on the save by less than 5, you fall unconscious and have to start making Fort saves to stabilize every round. If you succeed on the save by 10 or more, you remain conscious and can continue to act as if disabled. Not bad, I like the bit that you can choose to act as if disabled or become unconcious and stable. However requiring a DC 20+1 per round check to remain disabled seems a bit harsh, as the standard feat allows you to remain awake until you die. This nerfs the feat a bit.
Jerks 12-08-05, 12:39 PM	You may be right. I was trying to find a balance between staying up but without being invicible. I made a typo in the description it was suppposed to be 5 or greater; not 10. [I've gone back and edited the original post] That's a Fort 15+ to stay up...which may still be a bit high. How about this instead. DIEHARD [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Endurance. Benefit: When reduced to dying you may choose to act as if you were disabled. If you do not choose to act as if disabled you immediately become unconscious and stable. When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some free actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you must make a Fortitude save DC 10, +1 per Fort save versus dying you've made since being reduced to 0 Wounds. If you fail the save, you die. If you succeed on the save you remain conscious and can continue to act as if disabled. This may more closely mirror the feat. You have no chance of falling unconsious. You fight til you die (or hobble away).
Phoenix Knight 12-08-05, 05:03 PM	While I like the idea of VP and WP, one thing that has thus far disuaded me from using it is the problem of how it interacts with magic. It works well with physical combat, but in terms of spells and supernatural attacks, it seems to have a flavor issue. VP represent not getting hit, but instead turning a serious blow into a glancing injury. So how can that be justified with something like, say Magic Missile, that always hits? It's also hard to imagine someone caught in an acid fog only suffering fatigue. Even a spell like Orb of Fire which required a roll to hit seems like it should deal damage (since you DID hit if you hit with the touch attack), though I suppose you could compare that one to an attack with arrow. It feels like you shouldn't be able to deflect a blast of flame in quite the same way you could deflect a sword swing. Does anyone have a solution? Our group has toyed with the idea, and many liked it, but it seems like it needs more refinement.
BladeMage_1 12-08-05, 05:19 PM	While I like the idea of VP and WP, one thing that has thus far disuaded me from using it is the problem of how it interacts with magic. It works well with physical combat, but in terms of spells and supernatural attacks, it seems to have a flavor issue. VP represent not getting hit, but instead turning a serious blow into a glancing injury. So how can that be justified with something like, say Magic Missile, that always hits? It's also hard to imagine someone caught in an acid fog only suffering fatigue. Even a spell like Orb of Fire which required a roll to hit seems like it should deal damage (since you DID hit if you hit with the touch attack), though I suppose you could compare that one to an attack with arrow. It feels like you shouldn't be able to deflect a blast of flame in quite the same way you could deflect a sword swing. Does anyone have a solution? Our group has toyed with the idea, and many liked it, but it seems like it needs more refinement. I would say magic does hit you even though it only deducted VP, because you could regard magic as 'non-physically' wounding. What I mean is is that a character could be blasted with magic missiles, because they always hit, but since it's just magic missiles of energy I'd say the PC is hit by the missiles. Instead of being serious damage, it would "zap" the PC. However, for fireballs and other obviously damage dealing spells, this would definently not work. You cannot say "The fireball swipes your arm, luckily you dodge at the last moment, you take 13 fire damage." I'm trying to figure out how to rework the VP/WP system to fit D&D more, but I havent struck anything yet. Maybe I'm thinking a HP/WP system, or HP/VP. Like you have Hit points at the same time you have Vitality. When you make a reflex save to avoid a Fireball, you take VP damage. When you fail that save with a fireball, you take HP damage. something like that. Or perhaps I'll stick to the HP system... :D
Xeviat-DM 12-08-05, 06:06 PM	I posted my Diehard a little while ago, on this thread I thought. I've even tested it out in game for a while now. The major difference is that I do track negative wound points. While unconscious and dying, you automatically stabilize. While disabled, you may take strenuous action without risk of furthering your injuries (you do not need to make fortitude saves to resist dying when taking strenuous action while disabled). While disabled, when you take additional damage from any source, you are not assumed to be automatically dying unless you fail your fortitude save. Additionally, when first reduced to negative wound points, if you fail your save and are dying, you may choose to be disabled instead. You may only choose this when first reduced to negative wound points. I'm currious though, why everyone automatically puts the alternate death and dying rules together with the VP/WP rules. They're separate, and I'm currious why so many of us (myself included) use them together.
Jerks 12-08-05, 09:01 PM	Nah, Xeviat...I like my rule better :) The reason everyone couples the Fort save versus dying and the Vit/Wound system is that they are presented together in Unearthed Arcana. I would not use negative wound points and vitality together. The PCs already have a buffer (being their wound points) that, barring a critical, you have to burn through anyway. Just my two coppers.
Phoenix Knight 12-08-05, 09:13 PM	I would say magic does hit you even though it only deducted VP, because you could regard magic as 'non-physically' wounding. What I mean is is that a character could be blasted with magic missiles, because they always hit, but since it's just magic missiles of energy I'd say the PC is hit by the missiles. Instead of being serious damage, it would "zap" the PC. However, for fireballs and other obviously damage dealing spells, this would definently not work. You cannot say "The fireball swipes your arm, luckily you dodge at the last moment, you take 13 fire damage." I'm trying to figure out how to rework the VP/WP system to fit D&D more, but I havent struck anything yet. Maybe I'm thinking a HP/WP system, or HP/VP. Like you have Hit points at the same time you have Vitality. When you make a reflex save to avoid a Fireball, you take VP damage. When you fail that save with a fireball, you take HP damage. something like that. Or perhaps I'll stick to the HP system... :D Well, I think that seems plausible to answer the magic missile question. It makes MM basically a vitality-missile, but that's okay. I am curious if you can work out anything on the way to deal with other spells, such as fireball. Someone suggested you take WP damage if you fail, which seems okay for things that offer a save, like fireball, but less so for things that do not offer a Reflex save. Please post if you come up with something to deal with these other spells. Acid Fog still seems a good example of a prime hangup.
Jerks 12-08-05, 10:13 PM	I think that the Star Wars interpretation of Vitality may be a stumbling block here. In Star Wars GM were encouraged to describe Vitality hits and "misses" that strain you from having to duck and dodge. This parallels the movie in that character's usually pause and say ow when they get hit...or die. D&D is a different beast. There is not reason to describe Vitality "hits" and anything different that a hit point "hit". Even with hit points, if my GM described every arrow shot as penetrating through my chest then that stretches credibility. Vitality can be any hit of little consequence. Blade nicks your throat, missing aorta. Hammer slams down on your hand bending your finger out of it's socket. Oaken cudgel slams against your chain armor, bruising your ribs...whatever. Black eyes, swollen toes, boxed ears, blood trickling out your nose stuff can all be vitality. With magic it's the same way. Characters surviving huge fire blasts is no less incredulous with vitality than it is with hit points. Fighters could always survive a fire blast or two, and they still can. D&D is about high adventure surviving the impossible sometimes. If you made no special rules for penalizing fighters for their high hit points before vitality there is no reason to do it now.
Phoenix Knight 12-08-05, 10:38 PM	With magic it's the same way. Characters surviving huge fire blasts is no less incredulous with vitality than it is with hit points. Fighters could always survive a fire blast or two, and they still can. D&D is about high adventure surviving the impossible sometimes. If you made no special rules for penalizing fighters for their high hit points before vitality there is no reason to do it now. Your idea makes sense, yet, part of the attraction of Wound Points/Vitality over hit points is to get away from the abstraction. A character that gets covered in acid should suffer severe damage, be it in life or cinema. A character surviving a blast of fire with nominal injury is ridiculous. That's why they should suffer serious physical (wound) damage for such an occurance. On the other hand, your point is a good one from a game balance perspective. Which is why I hope to find a rule that can mesh more properly with the fluff of a cinematic scene.
Jerks 12-08-05, 11:27 PM	I think the problem here isn't necessarily hit points versus vitality but the entire premise of a character's increasing ability to resist damage that would of killed him two months ago. It's one of the core conceits of the game. There's a certain point where you just can't look at it too closely. There are of course other systems, that don't use escalating hit points but everything in D&D is designed around the concept of escalating hit points that challenging this basic conceit may not be worth it for the D&D game. One thing that might work for you, that has seen play in some d20 games, is a low massive damage threshold. The vitality system as written doesn't have a massive damage threshold, but you could incorporate it. If you wanted to be brutal you could limit the threshold to a character's Constitution score (modified by size). Then whenever a character is subjected to more damage than their Constitution score, they must make a Fortitude save or lose all of their remaining hit points/vitality. Again I would caution you from trying to inject too much penalty on characters being subjected to a lot of damage. A lot of damage is bad enough by itself. To circumvent this greatly weakens fighting classes towards the middle and late game, as their bank of hit points/vitality is one of their class features.
Xeviat-DM 12-09-05, 04:32 AM	Nah, Xeviat...I like my rule better :) Fair enough The reason everyone couples the Fort save versus dying and the Vit/Wound system is that they are presented together in Unearthed Arcana. Not really ... it goes Wound/Vitality, then Reserve Points, then Massive Damage Thresholds and Results, then Death and Dying. I would not use negative wound points and vitality together. The PCs already have a buffer (being their wound points) that, barring a critical, you have to burn through anyway. I do it because I don't like how the alternate Death and Dying rules work exactly. The save is based on how much damage the hit did; that means you're more likely to kill a healthy person with a big hit that barely brings them to 0 than you are to kill a weak person with a smaller hit that takes them down farther past 0. It also gives me, what I think is, a better way of increasing the saves; if you're down and someone hits you again, you're even more wounded. Having negative wound points also makes a recovery more apparent; if you were brought down to -40 wound points and somehow miraculously made your fortitude save with a lucky twenty, it's going to take quite some time to come back from that, but being dropped to -1 by a stab and making your save is going to take a lot less time to recover from. Think breaking every bone in your body vs. a gunshot to the inner tricep (which could cause a lot of bleeding). As for the newer post's comment on cinematics; I like the fact that wound/vitality makes PCs more vulnerable and makes combat more cinematic. Epic heroes didn't fear mooks, but they aren't brought down by gods all the time. Beowulf was killed by poison, Arthur by his son, and Alexander the Great contracted a disease. Poison, a weapon, and disease; doesn't sound too spectacular. Likewise, a hero can fight for quite some time, evading, blocking, and sustaining many near hits, but once they're hit they start to feel it. The mention of Boromir was good, and yes that was diehard. What makes heroes heroes is that even though they are still human, they risk their lives to make the world a better place. Gods aren't heroes.
FriendoftheDork 12-09-05, 05:10 AM	You may be right. I was trying to find a balance between staying up but without being invicible. I made a typo in the description it was suppposed to be 5 or greater; not 10. [I've gone back and edited the original post] That's a Fort 15+ to stay up...which may still be a bit high. How about this instead. DIEHARD [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Endurance. Benefit: When reduced to dying you may choose to act as if you were disabled. If you do not choose to act as if disabled you immediately become unconscious and stable. When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some free actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you must make a Fortitude save DC 10, +1 per Fort save versus dying you've made since being reduced to 0 Wounds. If you fail the save, you die. If you succeed on the save you remain conscious and can continue to act as if disabled. This may more closely mirror the feat. You have no chance of falling unconsious. You fight til you die (or hobble away). Yeah that's exactly what I decided to use :) About the discussion of vp and D&D damage, remember that VP works almost like HP when you describe it, thus a vp hit can be a hit that actually draws (little) blood, bruises you up etc. There is no need for "near hits" in D&D as it is in Star Wars. Magic missile already works the same in D&D. When a character is hit by it (and it always hits) he get's hurt. Sometimes it's just some minor pain, but it you take too much you can die (heart failure?). Same thing with vp/wp. As long as you got vp, you bite down the pain and fight on. When you run out, magic missiles start doing nasty stuff to you.. serious burns.. internal damage... I don't know the spell never specify exactly what kind of damage it is except "energy" damage. Now fireballs and stuff, which action movie doesen't have the hero being almost blasted to the ground by grenades, or flying right out of an explosion while evil minions drop like flies? That's because heroes have vitality points. And to you saying that a failed save against area affect spell should deal damage directly to WP, I don't think that's a good idea. Taking full damage from a 10d6 foreball is bad enough, you don't double it just because you fail the save. Xeviat, you're wrong about Unearthed arcana, there are dying rules in the VP/WP chapter so it makes sense that you apply it to vp/wp system. There is also another dying chapter that is intended for standar hp system, but that's another chapter. Phoenix knight, a character swimming in acid or lava should die, but vps represents the ability to avoid being totally submerged/affected. Someone surviving a blast of fire is ridiculous, unrealistic, but it happens in nearly every action movie out there and the audiences seem to like it. The hero, though possibly singed, never has serious burns.
Phoenix Knight 12-09-05, 10:57 AM	About the discussion of vp and D&D damage, remember that VP works almost like HP when you describe it, thus a vp hit can be a hit that actually draws (little) blood, bruises you up etc. There is no need for "near hits" in D&D as it is in Star Wars. Magic missile already works the same in D&D. When a character is hit by it (and it always hits) he get's hurt. Sometimes it's just some minor pain, but it you take too much you can die (heart failure?). Same thing with vp/wp. As long as you got vp, you bite down the pain and fight on. When you run out, magic missiles start doing nasty stuff to you.. serious burns.. internal damage... I don't know the spell never specify exactly what kind of damage it is except "energy" damage. Now fireballs and stuff, which action movie doesen't have the hero being almost blasted to the ground by grenades, or flying right out of an explosion while evil minions drop like flies? That's because heroes have vitality points. Certainly true. I think, though, that the heroes that dodge the fireballs pass their Reflex saves :) And to you saying that a failed save against area affect spell should deal damage directly to WP, I don't think that's a good idea. Taking full damage from a 10d6 foreball is bad enough, you don't double it just because you fail the save. I was actually thinking more like if you fail you take just 1 WP per die, and if you pass you take 1/2 VP damage as usual. The only problem comes if you pass and have such low hp you wind up taking more damage. Phoenix knight, a character swimming in acid or lava should die, but vps represents the ability to avoid being totally submerged/affected. Someone surviving a blast of fire is ridiculous, unrealistic, but it happens in nearly every action movie out there and the audiences seem to like it. The hero, though possibly singed, never has serious burns. In fairness, I was actually talking about the acid fog spell (and those along similar lines), as it would be easy enough to set up a house rule about a character actually dumped into an acid vat. Are you saying, then that if you have VP, still, you cover yourself with a cloak (or something to that effect)? That would seem like a possible solution... In principle, I agree with everything you said. But I still feel like part of the appeal of the VP over the hit points is that it doesn't represent real injury. HP sometimes represent injury and sometimes fatigue (or that's basically how the PHB explains it). Why then, does all hp real at the same rate? Why is it equally effected by magic? Maybe I should clairify: Is everyone's main goal here a more realistic system, or just one that is more dangerous? Either might be acceptable...I do certainly feel it can be bad for mid level characters to more or less ignore low-level NPCs.
War Angel 12-09-05, 12:31 PM	You don't seem to know what 3rd ed hps represents, for all your vaunted experience. hps represents the ability to turn a serious blow to a less lethal one, so instead of having your head chopped off you are only scratched. Heck a hp hit doesen't even have to draw blood at all, it's abstract. Of course some times it means pure toughness and resilience also, but a 150 hp fighter taking 7 damage is not getting a dagger in his back driven into the hilt, he's barely scratched. And yes I know that getting 10 daggers (7*10=70) daggers driven into the hilt in your body will kill anyone pretty quick so don't say it is realistic. OK, now the gloves come off. I try and be polite but this aint working with people like you. So pull up a chair and get ready for school. You contradict yourself at every turn. Star Wars using vitality because being hit by a star wars weapon means death 99% of the time. Is this true for D&D? Farthest thing from really. So how can they be the same? Answer: They aren't and can't be. It's not even apples and oranges, but rather tanks and slings. In SWD20 weapons can do 8d8 and a hit is death. Now listen carefully. That is NOT how D&D works. HPs represent what exactly? Did you make this up? What book is this written in? HPs as per the explaination in all the core books states that amount of damage a character can take before succumbing to his injuries. A dagger that does 1d4 and rolls a four is maximum damage for that weapon. So the dagger did the most possible damage (other than a crit, and per the explanation in the core books is a strike at a vital area. SO let me explain the rules to you so you may understand them as they are "written". A critical strike is an attack on a vital area. IE instead of the dagger slashing your arm it's shoved into your arm pit or in between your rib cage or perhaps even into your throat. A far cry from a shoulder hit or whatever. If you need further explanation I defer to the core rule books. If yer gonna play D&D I suggest reading them until you understand them as they are "written".) Fiend have you GMed Star Wars D20? I have and I am hear to tell you it gets real old. As a GM/DM I try and give my players a story book feel and give loads of detail. In SWD20 I am constantly fighting to come up with new ways to explain a miss. In D&D which is what we are discussing now is not the same. Players want to be bloody and be heroic. People wish to continue figting with an arrow protruding from their back and RPing it up. Also you might need to study history as well. You don't really seem to know what yer talking about in that regard either. Watch history channel, discovery or read books, and learn about ancient warfare. These heroes we RP in D&D are not us. They are super human fighters like the old days when a knight would fight for 2 days with an arrow stuck in his chest or a dagger that sliced off his all the toes on his lft foot. They were warriors far beyond anything we can do today imo. They would have to be as the wars they fought were unimaginably horrific. Now do you understand what HPs represent now? Or should I pull out my books and write it out word for word since you obviously don't have them.
War Angel 12-09-05, 01:15 PM	While I like the idea of VP and WP, one thing that has thus far disuaded me from using it is the problem of how it interacts with magic. It works well with physical combat, but in terms of spells and supernatural attacks, it seems to have a flavor issue. VP represent not getting hit, but instead turning a serious blow into a glancing injury. So how can that be justified with something like, say Magic Missile, that always hits? It's also hard to imagine someone caught in an acid fog only suffering fatigue. Even a spell like Orb of Fire which required a roll to hit seems like it should deal damage (since you DID hit if you hit with the touch attack), though I suppose you could compare that one to an attack with arrow. It feels like you shouldn't be able to deflect a blast of flame in quite the same way you could deflect a sword swing. Does anyone have a solution? Our group has toyed with the idea, and many liked it, but it seems like it needs more refinement. Amen brutha! SOme has their thinking cap on. D&D is not made to us VP (not being hit.) What about things that do acid damage over time? Melf's acid arrow. It would not hit in the VP so it is useless. What about wounding or being caught on fire? It endless! D&D was not built for VP and you would need to throw out many cool things or just rewrite the rules entirely.
Phoenix Knight 12-09-05, 02:14 PM	I actually do have another question for anyone that has tried the VP system: The UA system says there is no nonlethal damage. Is the same true in Star Wars? Has anyone found this detracts anything from their game? Is the loss of the ability to subdue NPCs/PCs a detriment? Does the fact that you can now damage a construct with a sap (or that a sap is kind of pointless) cause any problems? Before making a switch, I'd like to work out as many potential issues as possible.
Xeviat-DM 12-09-05, 04:18 PM	Friend of the Dork, sorry, I assumed people were using the alternate Death and Dying rules, not the silly static DC 15 (which no high level warrior will ever fail). As for fighting with arrows and horrible injuries ... WP damage fatigues someone, which aids the RP experience; if you take an arrow to the chest (8 wound damage) but don't drop to 0 WP, you're up and still able to fight, but you're in pain (represented by the fatigued status). Another thing which is good about VP/WP is that the numbers mean something again. When a fighter has 150 hp and a wizard has 50, 10 damage from a sword means different things. But when the Fighter has 20 WP and the wizard has 11, 10 damage from a sword means exactly the same thing (a big cut), but the fighter is in better condition because they're tougher. As for Subdual damage, I do think that the lack of subdual damage in VP/WP hurts the system. Here's how I do it: Non-lethal damage damages VP normally (most creatures who are immune to subdual don't have consitution scores, which means they don't have VP) on regular hits. On a critical hit, Non-lethal damage is added to a running total; if that total exceeds the target's WP, they must make a Fort save with effects parallelled to the effects of successful saves vs. death (stagered, or unconscious rather than disabled or dying).
Phoenix Knight 12-09-05, 04:29 PM	Another thing which is good about VP/WP is that the numbers mean something again. When a fighter has 150 hp and a wizard has 50, 10 damage from a sword means different things. But when the Fighter has 20 WP and the wizard has 11, 10 damage from a sword means exactly the same thing (a big cut), but the fighter is in better condition because they're tougher. As for Subdual damage, I do think that the lack of subdual damage in VP/WP hurts the system. Here's how I do it: Non-lethal damage damages VP normally (most creatures who are immune to subdual don't have consitution scores, which means they don't have VP) on regular hits. On a critical hit, Non-lethal damage is added to a running total; if that total exceeds the target's WP, they must make a Fort save with effects parallelled to the effects of successful saves vs. death (stagered, or unconscious rather than disabled or dying). I like that. It still allows you to knock someone out with a sap with seriously hurting them. You say on a crit, would the same thing happen if they are out of VP and would be taking WP damage from a source that should deal subdual?
Xeviat-DM 12-09-05, 04:35 PM	I like that. It still allows you to knock someone out with a sap with seriously hurting them. You say on a crit, would the same thing happen if they are out of VP and would be taking WP damage from a source that should deal subdual? Of course. On another thread, we're discussing sneak attacks and WP/VP. Jump in, help out.
War Angel 12-09-05, 04:36 PM	SO a wizard casting a fireball in a small room that does 27 damage, and everyone has enough VP they somehow avoiid being hit? How do you RP that? DM: You were able to squeeze through a tiny air bubble between the flames. What about spell with effects when hit? If they don't get hit how will they get affected by it? Too many holes in VP/WP system, and it has ruined more than one hard encounter and turned it into a route because of one critical with a 3d8 blaster rifle.
Phoenix Knight 12-09-05, 05:25 PM	How do those of you using the system recommend I handle a flaming burst weapon? The effect happens only on a critical. If it only deals damage to vitality, then the effect is even more useless (as compared to simply having a second elemental property for the same cost, which triggers on all attacks), but if it deals damage to WP as written it would be overpowering.
Xeviat-DM 12-10-05, 05:13 AM	Simple: elemental burst weapons deal their elemental damage on a crit as well as on a non-crit. Oh, and an interesting idea for spells and crits: leave the system as it is now, but if a character rolls a 20 on a save, they entirely ignore an effect. If they roll a 1 on the save, the spell has some extra effect, like wound damage. This only works on spells which have partial effects on successful saves. The simplest "additional" effect would just be 1 wp per dice of damage. Critically failing your save vs. a fireball might toast you a bit. As for VP damage vs. a fireball, it's simple. You're damn stinking tough. Read this example (I love D&D science): Objects have no VP, they only have WP. VP doesn't represent "structual" damage to a body, only superficial: bruises, scrapes, little cuts, and some amount of fatigue. Objects only have WP, and their damage is represented entirely by physical damage; but they have hardness, and that's their vp sort of. Now watch. Your average iron door has 60 hp and 10 hardness. Being an object, the door takes 1/2 damage from fire and electricity and 1/4 damage from cold. Hardness also protects against energy damage, and the damage is divided before applying to damage reduction. That means it is going to take 140 damage to melt that iron door; that's the average roll of 40d6, or near the maximum roll of 24d6. You might see that kind of damage from a lucky wizard with a delayed blast fireball. Your average human has 10 wp and 4 vp. That delayed blast fireball is going to roast that human no questions asked (in my system there's a 5% chance that they might roll a 20 on their fort save, DC 45, but it's going to take half a year to recover from that one, if they even manage to roll a bunch of consecutive 20s to stabalize). That meteor swarm is going to take out a lot of people; you'll need something like 120 hp and a 20 con to have a reasonable shot of living through that. What I'm saying is that it seems that creatures with VP have some sort of ability to suck it up and take hits, just like objects have hardness. Maybe it's magical; even while paralized a fireball isn't going to hit your wp like a scorching ray will. So maybe reflex save spells are just too random to take out wounds without first getting through what ever VP are. Heck, even a 3 foot wide log has more wp than a person does. But a hero's got more VP than a log has hardness.
FriendoftheDork 12-10-05, 10:07 AM	OK, now the gloves come off. I try and be polite but this aint working with people like you. So pull up a chair and get ready for school. You contradict yourself at every turn. Star Wars using vitality because being hit by a star wars weapon means death 99% of the time. Is this true for D&D? Farthest thing from really. So how can they be the same? Answer: They aren't and can't be. It's not even apples and oranges, but rather tanks and slings. In SWD20 weapons can do 8d8 and a hit is death. Now listen carefully. That is NOT how D&D works. HPs represent what exactly? Did you make this up? What book is this written in? HPs as per the explaination in all the core books states that amount of damage a character can take before succumbing to his injuries. A dagger that does 1d4 and rolls a four is maximum damage for that weapon. So the dagger did the most possible damage (other than a crit, and per the explanation in the core books is a strike at a vital area. SO let me explain the rules to you so you may understand them as they are "written". A critical strike is an attack on a vital area. IE instead of the dagger slashing your arm it's shoved into your arm pit or in between your rib cage or perhaps even into your throat. A far cry from a shoulder hit or whatever. If you need further explanation I defer to the core rule books. If yer gonna play D&D I suggest reading them until you understand them as they are "written".) Fiend have you GMed Star Wars D20? I have and I am hear to tell you it gets real old. As a GM/DM I try and give my players a story book feel and give loads of detail. In SWD20 I am constantly fighting to come up with new ways to explain a miss. In D&D which is what we are discussing now is not the same. Players want to be bloody and be heroic. People wish to continue figting with an arrow protruding from their back and RPing it up. Also you might need to study history as well. You don't really seem to know what yer talking about in that regard either. Watch history channel, discovery or read books, and learn about ancient warfare. These heroes we RP in D&D are not us. They are super human fighters like the old days when a knight would fight for 2 days with an arrow stuck in his chest or a dagger that sliced off his all the toes on his lft foot. They were warriors far beyond anything we can do today imo. They would have to be as the wars they fought were unimaginably horrific. Now do you understand what HPs represent now? Or should I pull out my books and write it out word for word since you obviously don't have them. Geez, did I hit a soft spot or something? I was trying to explain to you what hps in D&D represents and you take offense? Star wars and D&D is like tanks and slings, but it doesen't matter if a tank rolls over you or you take a slingstone to your soft spot in your brain, you're equally dead. But I'm not discussing star wars, but D&D so please stick to the topic. D&D and SW vitality systems are different as the games are different. I didn't make up anything, if you read a book called players handbook 3.5 pg. 154 PHB: "Hit points means two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishmentand keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one" That means that when your average joe peasant attacks your 150 hp fighter with a dagger and rolls a 4 for damage, the fighter turns it into a minor scratch. "Damage gives you scars, bangs up your armor, and gets blood on your tunic, but it doesen't slow you down until you reach 0 or lower" Wait that doesen't sound like having daggers and arrows sticking into you all the way? In fact it sounds to me like neglible damage. However, getting reduced to 0 hps is pain, possible weapons sticking in you or having your stomach opened up with a sword slash. Well there is more from 3rd edition, but 3.5 cut alot of it out, probably to save space. But the message is: 50 damage means different things to different people. And no, 1d4 is not max damage with a dagger. A strong fighter can deal 5-9 damage, or 10-14 if it's a highly magical dagger itself, without it even being a crit. A rogue can deal 1d4 +10d6 damage if he knows just the place to stick it. And of course, the amount of damage is not as important as what the victim has left. A commoner with 2 hps will usually drop unconscious by being attacked with a dagger, a possible description having the dagger driven into the chest until the hilt. The 1st level fighter with 12 hps will not nearly be as affacted by the same attack. For him it's just a slash on the arm or a small puncture wound somewhere on the body, not enough to keep him fighting at 100% effectivess. Yes I've GMed star wars. In that game you have to rely on "near misses". But this is D&D and vitality damage there does NOT represent a near hit, but a minor scratch or nonserious damage. D&D heroes using wp/vp system CAN fight on with a dagger protruding from their back, a 12 wp fighter who takes 6 wp damage from an arrow on a critical hit IS doing just that, with only a minor penalty to str and dex that is easily offset by his attack and damage bonus. As a matter of fact I do whatch history and discovery channel, as well as reading historical books. Not that they are revevant to a combat system in a fantasy game that's not trying to be realistic, just trying to be believable. I have a hard time believing you when you say you think a medieval knight could fight for 2 days with an arrow sticking in his chest... in RL no one can fight so long at all, as fighting, especially melee, is very tiring to the body. Even if you have the stamina to fight for hours, which is a heck of a long time to fight continously, you will drop eventually or die from heart failure. If you want a hero fighting on despite lethal injuries, take the diehard feat.
FriendoftheDork 12-10-05, 10:18 AM	Friend of the Dork, sorry, I assumed people were using the alternate Death and Dying rules, not the silly static DC 15 (which no high level warrior will ever fail). As for fighting with arrows and horrible injuries ... WP damage fatigues someone, which aids the RP experience; if you take an arrow to the chest (8 wound damage) but don't drop to 0 WP, you're up and still able to fight, but you're in pain (represented by the fatigued status). Another thing which is good about VP/WP is that the numbers mean something again. When a fighter has 150 hp and a wizard has 50, 10 damage from a sword means different things. But when the Fighter has 20 WP and the wizard has 11, 10 damage from a sword means exactly the same thing (a big cut), but the fighter is in better condition because they're tougher. As for Subdual damage, I do think that the lack of subdual damage in VP/WP hurts the system. Here's how I do it: Non-lethal damage damages VP normally (most creatures who are immune to subdual don't have consitution scores, which means they don't have VP) on regular hits. On a critical hit, Non-lethal damage is added to a running total; if that total exceeds the target's WP, they must make a Fort save with effects parallelled to the effects of successful saves vs. death (stagered, or unconscious rather than disabled or dying). OK no prob. I agree about the pros of vp/wp. And yes the lack of subdual damage sucks, I think I will use the old system pararell to the vp/wp system. But your system seems to work fine, as vp and subdual damage heal just as fast it's probably simpler to combine them as you have. But when you say critical hit, do you also mean when you run out of vp or doesen't have vp? In that case I agree, if not no. You should be able to knock out a guy without resorting to lethal damage. Hmm just realize my question was the same as phoenix.
Xandore 12-10-05, 11:22 AM	I used the VP/WP system in my campaign. Most of us had problems of one kind or another with the VP/WP system in the UA. After trying some of the ideas from the forums plus some of my own I decided to stop using the VP/WP system. I don't have my stuff with me, but this is what I remember. I have since decided to use a HP/WP system that I have as of yet to test. It is rather simple. Damage system works like as normal, except a critical hit causes normal damage plus a wound equal to one less the critical multiplier. Wounds Smaller than small creature base 5 Wounds + CON Adj. Small to large creature base 10 wounds + CON Adj. Huge to large creature base 15 wounds + CON Adj. Gargantuan creature base 20 wounds + CON Adj. Colossus creature base 25 wounds + CON Adj. Minimum of 1 wound. Creatures with no CON have base wounds with no adjustment. Disabled If you have zero HPs and have taken no wounds you are disabled. If you have taken one or more wounds and have HPs you are disabled. Unconscious When your HPs are at zero and you have taken one or more wounds. Dying You have no HPs and have one or more wounds you are considered dying unless you make a Fortitude save (DC 5 + wounds taken) to become stable. While dying you take an additional wound each round on your turn. Death's Door 0 Wounds and 0 Hit Points and you are at death's door. You must make an immediate DC 15 Fortitude save or die. Each round you continue to live the Fortitude save increases by 1. You're no longer at death's door as soon as you have atleast 1 HP or 1 Wound. Healing Wounds heal at a rate of 1 per day. 2 per day with complete bed rest. The number of wounds healed per day increases to the same rate as HP heal if no HP damage. Healing magic heals HPs as normal, but only the plus HPs healed based on level heals wounds. Any extra left after healing wounds then heals HPs. Example, a character has 3 wounds and 5 hps of damage. A Cure light wound spell cast by a 4th level cleric (1d8+4) rolls a 3 would heal all 3 wounds from the +4 and heal 4hp (3 from roll +1 left over from +4). Toughness and Improved Toughness increase both HPs and Wounds. Endurance gives a +4 bonus to saves against Dying and Death's Door. Die Hard allows you to remain conscious when you have wounds and no hit points.
War Angel 12-10-05, 01:04 PM	How will you use stun affects for VP/WP change over? Even in SWD20 when a grenade with stun hits players they only lose VP while sitting there stunned. To me that is so stupid. I am thinking to my self, How can someone be dodging and using energy while standing as still as a statue? VP/WP is garbage and needs reworked. I remember once I had a Coruscanti Ogre get stunned, and wasn't sure how to say what happened, because my player clearly hit him with a blaster pistol, but it only ate up 15 VP. I was like..."Uhhh, yer shot misses....The blaster bolt harmlessly dissapates into the durasteel wal a milimeter above the Ogre's head.
Phoenix Knight 12-10-05, 01:21 PM	Simple: elemental burst weapons deal their elemental damage on a crit as well as on a non-crit. I don't quite follow you. Are you saying my flaming burst longsword now deals 1d8 + 1d6 fire (as normal) + 1d10 fire on a regular hit, or on a critical hit it deals 1d6 VP damage and 1d8 + 1d10 WP damage? Granted the crit part is not much worse than criting while power attacking (which does happen). Or are you saying it merely adds the 1d10 as it normally would? What about a bow or scythe? Flaming burst was most powerful on a weapon with a higher multiplier. Is it now the same on any weapon, or will a scythe (now a 18-20 weapon, IIRC), deal an extra 3d10 WP on a crit? If so, I will acquise that burst weapons will no longer be inferior. Oh, and an interesting idea for spells and crits: leave the system as it is now, but if a character rolls a 20 on a save, they entirely ignore an effect. If they roll a 1 on the save, the spell has some extra effect, like wound damage. This only works on spells which have partial effects on successful saves. The simplest "additional" effect would just be 1 wp per dice of damage. Critically failing your save vs. a fireball might toast you a bit. As for VP damage vs. a fireball, it's simple. You're damn stinking tough. Like yourself, I'm actually working on a revised magic system for my campaign setting, anyway. It would be easy enough to write some of the spells to deal WP damage unless you pass the save. I suppose that explanation will have to do for a fireball. It still seems that, with a fireball, a person could twist or move to take less of a blast (that's the Reflex save). But some spells, like those that offer no save, make that less practical. I guess that brings up another question. If we have spells that require attack rolls to work normally, they can crit. This is far worse on spells than weapons, when it happens. Imagine criting a red dragon with a polar ray. In the RAW, this seriously hurts and enrages the dragon. In the VP/WP rules, it should probably kill even a dragon in one shot. Assuming you break SR, it's a touch attack. Here you go Smaug, 20d6 * 1.5 cold WP damage, just for you :D
War Angel 12-10-05, 01:46 PM	Xeviat, How would a group all be missed by a fireball that chewed up the entire room? No where to run. You may still save and dodge the greater part of the blast or leap behind a desk and use it to cover you or something, but everyone? That would just be weird. Can someone explain why one would use VP over HPs? I understand why Star Wars did it because SW weapons are disgustingly strong so they had to create this system to make it believeable, but in the same context it makes D&D seems unbelieveable? So why make the change?
Xeviat-DM 12-10-05, 05:54 PM	War Angel, I didn't say it was a miss. Here's another example: Being submurged in acid deals 10d6 damage per round. Let's toss our iron door in there; it's 10 hardness will protect it, but acid damage isn't reduced when applied to objects. So, on average, our iron door is going to take 25 damage each round, and will be gone in 3 or so rounds. Toss our 120 hp, 20 wp super warrior in that same acid, and it's going to take about 4 rounds to eat through his hp, and another round to toast his wp. So again, the warrior seems to have something about them keeping them from taking wounds. A fireball goes off in a room filled with a mixture of low level mooks and high level heroes. The mooks are toasted, they don't have the hp or wp to survive. The heroes just lose some hp, because they're darn tough. Some heroes make their save and pull up their cloak, or something else to take less damage; some warriors take it in the face and lose more hp. But none are wounded unless their hp are taken out. To explain burst: an energy weapon deals +1d6 hp damage on a normal hit, while a burst weapon deals +1d6 hp damage on a normal hit and +1d6 wp damage on a crit. Either will deal wp damage if hp are taken out. To explain my non-lethal damage: a subdual attack will deal vp damage normally, but if the target is out of hp or you score a critical hit, the subdual attack will deal non-lethal damage. Non-lethal damage is tracked on it's own, and if it exceeds a target's wounds, they could be staggered or knocked unconscious. I've got to run to work, I'll be back tonight.
Jerks 12-12-05, 01:00 AM	Functionally, there is no difference between hit points and vitality in the D&D game. The entire notion of vitality hits being "near-misses" comes from the Star Wars game. This interpretation of how vitality works is not introduced in Unearthed Arcana, nor should it be. Vitality points are a measure of a character's ability to turn a direct hit into a graze or a glancing blow with no serious consequences. compare to this Damage gives you scars, bangs up your armor, and gets blood on your surcoat, but it doesn't slow you down until your current hit points reach 0 or lower It's tough with so many D20 games floating out there to keep all the information discreet and seperate, and a lot of times the distinction between two different games is slight but significant. Star Wars is not D&D. Unearthed Arcana vitality points DO NOT represent the same thing as Star Wars vitality points. The Fireball "problem"...the vat of acid "problem" are not unique to vitality points. The same stretch of logic that exists with allowing a 200 Vitality point point fighter from swimming in lava exists with a 200 hit point fighter. Fighters in either system take the brunt of fireballs and press on. Rogues in either system have a chance to Evade for no damage. In either event they both survive and are standing in the same square that was just incinerated. I like the Vitality/Wound system because it makes low-level characters stronger (the Wound points more than double the survivability of your average 1st level wizard), and prevents high-level characters from being unstoppable juggernaughts. It's a cool system, you just have to "unlearn what you have learned." ;)
FriendoftheDork 12-12-05, 01:43 AM	Functionally, there is no difference between hit points and vitality in the D&D game. The entire notion of vitality hits being "near-misses" comes from the Star Wars game. This interpretation of how vitality works is not introduced in Unearthed Arcana, nor should it be. compare to this It's tough with so many D20 games floating out there to keep all the information discreet and seperate, and a lot of times the distinction between two different games is slight but significant. Star Wars is not D&D. Unearthed Arcana vitality points DO NOT represent the same thing as Star Wars vitality points. The Fireball "problem"...the vat of acid "problem" are not unique to vitality points. The same stretch of logic that exists with allowing a 200 Vitality point point fighter from swimming in lava exists with a 200 hit point fighter. Fighters in either system take the brunt of fireballs and press on. Rogues in either system have a chance to Evade for no damage. In either event they both survive and are standing in the same square that was just incinerated. I like the Vitality/Wound system because it makes low-level characters stronger (the Wound points more than double the survivability of your average 1st level wizard), and prevents high-level characters from being unstoppable juggernaughts. It's a cool system, you just have to "unlearn what you have learned." ;) This is exactly what I'm trying to say. But some people, after playing SW has a firm notion of what exactly VP is, and dislike one because of some other.
BladeMage_1 12-18-05, 12:44 PM	This is exactly what I'm trying to say. But some people, after playing SW has a firm notion of what exactly VP is, and dislike one because of some other. True. I think Vitality is a great way to draw a visible line between how you are doing in combat, whether up and ready or down and out. The people who confuse D&Ds VP/WP to SWRPG are missing that HP and VP are the same in the game. WP adds that mortality feeling, especially for those DMs who descibe every hit as an gaping wound. With VP/WP, you can draw the line on when someone is glanced by a flaming scimitar or when they are gutted with one. With HP you have no such line, you are either hit or missed. A good DM could add spice into combat with the HP system, but still the point between a papercut and a sundered limb is foggy.
Xeviat-DM 12-18-05, 10:48 PM	Critting with spells is just unworkable in the WP/VP system, and I think we may need to rework attack roll spells. I'll toss out some ideas soon.
Malkonnen 12-19-05, 02:40 PM	I actually had an idea the other day for modifying the WP/VP system. Basically a variation on the Leaky vitality variant, I was thinking of checking the damage threshold once per round rather than per attack. This way it makes mobs of enemies more threatening, and shifts the balance back from favoring heavy damage over finesse fighters. This way if you take a hit for 40 from a fireball, or two 20 pt hits from a twohandeder, or four 10 pt hits from a dual wielder, or eight 5 pt hits from a gang of kobolds swarming you you're equally bad off. Basically you can only "narrowly avoid through exhaustive effort so many blows per round." To illustrate, under the Leaky Vitality Variant (found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20051013jc76)), a character who had 13 maximum WPs who suffered the above barrage would take 37 VP + 3 WP from the fireball, 38 VP + 2 WP from the 2Her, and 40 VP + 0 WP from either the TWFer or the kobolds. IMHO, this is adding additional drawback to finesse type attackers who were already struggling with things like Damage Reduction. With the slight variation, all of those scenarios would inflict 37 VPs and 3 WPs. In case it weren't obvious my problem arose from realizing that a high con fighter could completely ignore attacks from a sufficiently weak opponent until his VP ran out. Or to put it another way a TWFer who could dish out comparable damage per round to a THer is still going to take significantly longer to kill/KO his opponent essentially because his VP damage is being rounded down to zero, drastically reducing his effectiveness in combat. The way I interpret the whole WP/VP system, it makes much more sense that a TWFer be just as effective (if net damage output is the same). "The barbarian swings his mighty greataxe, but you manage to catch the brunt of his assault with your shield. He swings and connects again, while you were still reeling from the first blow and his blade bites into your shoulder; you take 37 VP and 3 WP. "The assassin comes at you with a flurry of dagger thrusts, you frantically parry, parry, and dodge only to be caught in the leg with his last thrust; you take 37 VP and 3 WP." I know the trade off is a bit more bookkeeping, but I figure it wouldn't be too hard to keep a running total of damage taken each round. As in the above example you'd keep a running tally of VP taken and every 13th point goes to WP instead, whiping the tally clean at the end of the round. What do you guys think? -Malk
Jerks 12-19-05, 03:07 PM	Your version of leaky sounds reasonable and I think fairly represents what your trying to accomplish. It will slow the game down somewhat as players would have to keep a running total off all damage they take between each round. Because the wound damage is applied based off total vitality damage, it would probably be best if you had each player determine how much wound they suffered at the start of their turn. Tally up their vit, record wound, apply fatigue penalties (if any), reset running total and commence with the action. I'm a little concerned that with your option, survival at higher levels will become a bit of a chore. It bears some playtesting to see how it holds up.
PlasmaBunny 12-24-05, 06:02 PM	In my current campaign, I use wounds/vitality with the following rules. Extra damage dice from things like sneak attack, shocking, flaming, etc apply to vitality even on a critical (however spill over as normal should your foe run out of vitality points). Rogues gain a Improved Sneak attack at level 1 and 11 in place of sneak attack. Improved sneak attack applies to wounds on a critical hit. Still trying to figure out how to work power attack and spells that require attack rolls.
AbuDhabi 12-26-05, 06:18 PM	I like the VP/WP variant, but I think the 0 WP rules are overcomplicated, so I just apply the standard HP system for that. Ie.: Full WP: Perfectly fine. Positive WP: Fatigued. Zero WP: Disabled and Fatigued. Negative WP: Dying, standard rules for stabilization. Negative WP with Diehard: Disabled and Fatigued. -10 WP: Dead. As for the types of damage, this is how I would use it: Additional, precision-based damages like sneak attack, skirmish, etc. are reduced, +1 for each damage die. These go straight to Wound Points. Other, non-precision-based additional damage go to wound points only on critical hits, though they too are reduced to +1 for every die. Power Attack works normally, only going to Wound Points on criticals. Damaging spells go to Vitality Points first. Damaging spells that require attack rolls go to Vitality Points. If the roll is a critical hit, the target receives additionally 1 Wound Point damage per damage die. Any type of attack I failed to mention?