Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zootsuit 02-19-08, 05:12 PM	Hello all, I recently played a different RPG system (gasp!) that had different rules for armor than does D&D. In this system, light armor (like padded or leather) gave a high AC (equivalent) bonus and a very minor damage reduction (of 1), while a suit of plate gave a very low armor bonus and a high damage reduction. The idea is that, while wearing light armor, you can move faster and avoid attacks better, but if you are hit the wound is going to be severe. However, if you're wearing plate, you're a large and heavy target and therefore easy to hit, but it'll take a much harder hit for you to feel it. Has anyone ever implemented this system into D&D? I'd really like to try it out in a campaign setting- I feel it adds a little more realism to the all-or-nothing damage system.
Illithid Tentacles 02-19-08, 07:22 PM	I always thought it was interesting that some people have NO problem whatsoever accepting that it's possible, with enough training, to create huge gouts of fire with nothing more than some ash, bat turds, and gobbledygook, but think armor as it's presented in the PHB isn't "realistic." Anyway, the "Armor as DR" issue has come up before, many times. I've never had any experience with it, but I understand it generally works a LOT better in a low-magic setting.
Krusk 02-19-08, 08:00 PM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm from the SRD. works fairly well in DND, but at higher levels the damage reduction -i have found- is not enough, and at low levels it is a very large ammount.
Etarnon 02-19-08, 08:23 PM	That's pretty much the system that rolemaster uses. Each way is valid, depending on preference. Pick one, and run with it.
1red13 02-19-08, 10:01 PM	I haven't any experience with armor as dr but by the sounds of it will work fine. The only hitch i can think of is if you have transient players. If your group has a core but with a fringe of players who come and go you may have to educate each one as they come in. Not to say this is a big deal just a distraction. Some people are sticklers for going by the book and don't take well to variations.
Dan Hemmens 02-20-08, 08:48 AM	I always thought it was interesting that some people have NO problem whatsoever accepting that it's possible, with enough training, to create huge gouts of fire with nothing more than some ash, bat turds, and gobbledygook, but think armor as it's presented in the PHB isn't "realistic." Completely different issue. Within the fictional reality of D&D, magic is possible, but armour is still supposed to protect you by stopping blows, not magically moving your body out of the way. As an *abstraction* its *okay* but not great - how exactly does padded armour provide you *any* protection at all against arrows, say?
Hugin 02-20-08, 12:44 PM	I have armour granting AC and DR in my own modified d20 system. Both AC and DR increase as armour gets heavier. The twist is that DR only applies within the first five points of being hit (inversely, you can bypass DR by hitting your opponent by more than five above his AC). Plus, it you hit your target, at least one point of damage always gets through even if you rolled a 1 for damage and the target had DR of 5; after all, you were successful. This results in dual AC numbers, with the second number always being 5 higher than the first. I'd write AC like 18/23/2 (meaning 'you hit me with an 18 but my armour absorbed some of the impact', 'you really hit me with a 23 and managed to get around my protection', and 'sometimes my armour can absorb up to 2 points of damage'.) This works for creatures as well. Basically, what would normally be a natural AC bonus (generally due to tough skin, bony plates, etc) is now used to come up with natural DR. We have been playing with this for over a year and has worked out very well. For us at least. Just remember though that I have rebalanced nearly everything else as well.
Salla 02-20-08, 03:28 PM	Completely different issue. Within the fictional reality of D&D, magic is possible, but armour is still supposed to protect you by stopping blows, not magically moving your body out of the way. That's not what happens, at least not exclusively. A 'miss' does not necessarily mean that no contact was made, it means that no damage was dealt. The blow could very easily have struck the target and simply failed to penetrate its shield or armor (or Ring of Protection field, or whathaveyou). As an *abstraction* its *okay* but not great - how exactly does padded armour provide you *any* protection at all against arrows, say? Easy. The arrows don't penetrate the padding. It's not like they're bullets. And, as you say, it's an abstraction. The exact details of how no damage was dealt relies on the imagination of the participants, whether it simply failed to penetrate or the target rolled with the attack or whatever.
squidyak 02-20-08, 06:47 PM	I always thought it was interesting that some people have NO problem whatsoever accepting that it's possible, with enough training, to create huge gouts of fire with nothing more than some ash, bat turds, and gobbledygook, but think armor as it's presented in the PHB isn't "realistic." Fireballs are magic, armor is not. If I asked my DM why normal armor makes me harder to hit, I'd be unsatisfied with "Um, magic."
Cranewings 02-21-08, 12:59 AM	I have a thought about armor bonuses in the normal game. If someone was hard up to know if an opponent hit the armor or missed all together, you could just check to see if their strike roll was under your ac without the dexterity modifier applied. For example, a character in leather armor with a dex of 18 has an ar of 16. If his opponent rolls a 9 or lower, the attack simply misses. If the attack is a 10 or 11, it strikes the armor and glances off. If the attack is a 12-15, then the defender was able to use his skill to dodge the attack. The Conan RPG has VERY GOOD damage reduction / armor penetration rules for all weapons an armor. I don't like to play with it because I think that story telling can explain away hitpoints and armor as they are in the normal rules. Trying to get too realistic is impossible. There is a big part of me that thinks people in plate armor should get a bonus to strike because they don't have to use motion to defend glancing blows so they can spend more time making their attack perfect. Not many people would like such a rule though.
Dan Hemmens 02-21-08, 12:41 PM	Easy. The arrows don't penetrate the padding. It's not like they're bullets. Quite so, arrows being famously far *better* at penetrating armour than bullets. An arrow from a longbow will go through *steel*. Point is it's an abstraction that some people don't like. I don't like it because it puts too much emphasis on heavy armour. It's *always* better to be wearing plate than leather, always better to be wearing leather than nothing. It means everybody dresses alike.
JimProfit 02-22-08, 08:38 PM	As I see it armor providing damage reduction instead of AC bonus increases the PC's power seven-fold. If a goblin jabs his large spear into your chest for 1d8 damage. If you're wearing full plate your AC let's say is 18. The goblin has no strength modifier so he has to roll a 19-20, 10% chance to "hit" you. Under damage reduction let's say full plate armor does -8 damage. Now the goblin could hit you, but what would be the point? It won't damage you. In a sense that is more realistic, but hardly good for an rpg.. Sure the multiplyer of critical hit could theoreticaly increase damage. But in 4th edition we won't have that. And even if we're using 3.5 damage a critical hit will only deal 1 to 8 damage, as if he'd never gotten a critical at all. The short answer is it's increddibly overpowerd. And really that wouldn't be so bad, non-casters could use it. But then ofcourse clerics are profficient with armor, so we'd have to get rid of that. And shields, if your character wore a shield and made AC 20 then the goblin would have to roll a critical either way for his attack to mean anything. I feel most sorry for the goblin. Who probably just wanted to steal your bread.
runestar 02-22-08, 10:12 PM	In this system, light armor (like padded or leather) gave a high AC (equivalent) bonus and a very minor damage reduction (of 1), while a suit of plate gave a very low armor bonus and a high damage reduction. The idea is that, while wearing light armor, you can move faster and avoid attacks better, but if you are hit the wound is going to be severe. However, if you're wearing plate, you're a large and heavy target and therefore easy to hit, but it'll take a much harder hit for you to feel it. isn't that what max dex is supposed to simulate?
Airos 02-22-08, 11:53 PM	As I see it armor providing damage reduction instead of AC bonus increases the PC's power seven-fold. If a goblin jabs his large spear into your chest for 1d8 damage. If you're wearing full plate your AC let's say is 18. The goblin has no strength modifier so he has to roll a 19-20, 10% chance to "hit" you. Under damage reduction let's say full plate armor does -8 damage. Now the goblin could hit you, but what would be the point? It won't damage you. In a sense that is more realistic, but hardly good for an rpg.. Sure the multiplyer of critical hit could theoreticaly increase damage. But in 4th edition we won't have that. And even if we're using 3.5 damage a critical hit will only deal 1 to 8 damage, as if he'd never gotten a critical at all. The short answer is it's increddibly overpowerd. And really that wouldn't be so bad, non-casters could use it. But then ofcourse clerics are profficient with armor, so we'd have to get rid of that. And shields, if your character wore a shield and made AC 20 then the goblin would have to roll a critical either way for his attack to mean anything. I feel most sorry for the goblin. Who probably just wanted to steal your bread. You could say all those things, but they'd be house rule modifications to the variant rules. Under the Unearthed Arcana variant full plate only gives you +4 ac and DR 4/-. It still keeps the +1 max dex, so with non-magical full plate you're not going to have more than a 15 AC without a shield. A large shield only gives you a +2 and no DR at all, so a fighter fully decked out in full plate and a heavy steel shield has at most AC 17 with DR 4/-. The goblin will have an easier time hitting you than under the standard rules, but won't deal quite as much damage. I'm not seeing what the problem is.
JimProfit 02-24-08, 01:51 PM	So then why do people wear armor if thier dex modifier gets capped? Is it possibly like slash'em where physichal attacks are "deflected" 20% of the time?
Airos 02-24-08, 06:46 PM	So then why do people wear armor if thier dex modifier gets capped? Is it possibly like slash'em where physichal attacks are "deflected" 20% of the time? Wait, what? :confused: People wear armor so they don't get hurt. If you've got a high dex mod, then you wear lighter armor with a higher max dex bonus.
JimProfit 02-25-08, 12:41 PM	So bassicaly only those with a poor dexterity anyway wear heavy armor? Seems kindof flawed. I mean I'd expect the fighter to go before me in battle, but with his poor dexterity that probably won't happen. And he's suppose to be a better combatant but his AC is just barely better then mine from armor vs dexterity. I figured armor didn't need max dex bonuses, hell, the penalty to dex skills though rational was bad enough. Have you checked the armor's weight? It's friggin heavy. I don't wanna get stuck carrying anything but a light load.
Cravin 03-05-08, 01:34 AM	Generally the way I simulate damage with AC is this Size -> Dex -> Deflection -> Shield -> Armor -> Natural Armor -> Damage Redcution Meaning If an arrow is Flying at Skum The Kobald Fighter who is wearing fullplate, Lets say his dex is 12, with his heavy steel shield, and is wearing a ring of protection +1 for a total AC of 24. (8 Full plate + 2 shield + 1 dex + 1 magic +1 size + 1 Natural armor + base 10) If the attack roll is a 9 or lower - it misses completely. Base AC 10 or lower - The arrow would have hit Skum, but he is much too short and it went right over his head. Size bonus 11 or lower - After seeing that The blow is going to hit him even at his size, Skum twists and contorts or otherwise moves to avoid the assault Dex 12 or lower - Unfortunately Skum's Dexterity wasn't quite enough to make the defense, when the arrow would have hit Skum his magic ring wards off the attack, acting like a bosytight forcefield. The phb describes deflection as (Deflection averts blows as they approach, but it does not prevent a creature from touching something dangerous.) deflection 14 or lower - Even though he tried to avoid the blow, Skum's dexterity wasn't good enough, but the attack ricochets off of his shield. Shield 22 or lower - The attack shot true and avoided Skum's shield, but chinked off of, or stuck in, the many plates of the armor without harming Skum. Armor 23 or lower - The arrow was shot with such power/precision that it by passes all of skums defenses up to his armor, pierces through the thick plates of the armor, or hit a 'soft spot' in the armor, but as the arrow hits Skum, the thick Hide of his Draconic skin wards the blow. Natural armor 24 or more - The attack has bypassed all of Skums defenses. If he had any damage reduction, it would come into play now. DR/- -------- I am probably missing something, but it isn't a bad idea to go by this in my opinion. It works out climatically for the PC's. Being forced to visualize all of this happening increases the verisimilitude of the game. So when you look at it step by step this way, It seems kind of pointless to have armor BE damage reduction.