Armor as Damage Reduction? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor as Damage Reduction? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Laszlo Koller
09-09-05, 02:56 PM I'm curious to learn what house rules gamers use when implementing an "armor as damage reduction" system. I know that Unearthed Arcana has some optional rules regarding this, but does anyone use any other d20 publisher's system (or perhaps, home grown rules)? If so, can you briefly comment on the mechanics of the system you use. Thanks.
Gold Katana
09-09-05, 05:55 PM My group is enjoying a home brew. Armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses do not get added to AC. Instead, those bonuses get added together to form "armor reduction" (AR). When hit for physical damage, the player rolls a die equal to his AR, that amount is subtracted from damage taken. Sometimes you have to be a little innovative with the die, such as with an AR7 - you roll a D8 and ignore 8's. Thus, armor does not stop you from being hit but does stop you from taking damage. We are also using VP/WP from UA, so AR is completely bypassed on a critical.
GFC_Seracule
09-09-05, 06:08 PM So all attacks always hit? And what about when attacks do 50 damage? That sounds pretty weird.
Laszlo Koller
09-09-05, 06:32 PM How do you handle monsters? (I assume that you subtract their relevant armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses adding them into AR; leaving the remainder of bonuses in their AC.) Also, do you have an actual house rule document that you print out and share with your players? If so, would you mind sharing it? Thanks.

My group is enjoying a home brew. Armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses do not get added to AC. Instead, those bonuses get added together to form "armor reduction" (AR). When hit for physical damage, the player rolls a die equal to his AR, that amount is subtracted from damage taken. Sometimes you have to be a little innovative with the die, such as with an AR7 - you roll a D8 and ignore 8's. Thus, armor does not stop you from being hit but does stop you from taking damage. We are also using VP/WP from UA, so AR is completely bypassed on a critical.
Crash01234567890
09-10-05, 02:00 AM I do something similar, well kind of. I run it wear your armor bonus is straight damage reduction. Magic bonuses still apply to your AC but your armor doesn't. Shields and such add to A.C. also. This damage reduction doesn't stack with natural damage reduction and is bypassed on a critical. Natural Armor gives you natural damage reduaction (Doesn't stack with armor damage reduction) but it isn't bypassed on a critical. Shields and magical effects still effect your AC in my game though because really if you think about it shields do make people harder to hit and armor doesn't. Armor just makes them harder to hurt when you hit.

We run a VP/WP system also (although it's modified quite a bit) so the natural damage reduction from normal natural armor is a big deal since it will even reduce wound point damage from criticals.
Korimyr the Rat
09-10-05, 05:17 AM The way I run it, your base armor value is divided in half (like Unearthed Arcana) but instead of adding to DR and AC, half goes to X/adamantine DR and half goes to damage conversion. (So, some damage is converted to subdual.) If there's an odd number, it goes to conversion.

Magic armor adds directly to conversion, and every even plus adds to DR. (So a studded leather +2 is a bit better than a chain shirt +1.)

Adamantine weapons ignore the DR of armor, and some weapons are designated Armor Piercing, which allows them to ignore the damage conversion. Adamantine armor is better, since it grants X/- DR and it ignores the AP quality of non-adamantine weapons.

Natural armor works the same way, except for Dragons, Outsiders, Undead and Constructs. Dragons and Outsiders halve their natural armor before splitting it between DR and DC, but they get Class Defense Bonus for their HD. Constructs and Undead halve their natural armor before splitting it and lose the benefit of conversion, but their natural armor is X/-. (Constructs use the better of their X/adamantine or X/- DR whenever struck.)

edit: Oh, and shields work normally-- they keep attacks from hitting you.
Gold Katana
09-10-05, 11:32 AM So all attacks always hit? No, only those attacks which meet or beat the AC. Only the AC does not take into account armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses.

How do you handle monsters? (I assume that you subtract their relevant armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses adding them into AR; leaving the remainder of bonuses in their AC.) Correct. It is very straightforward and easy to use. Essentially, you are using their current touch AC - remainder is their AR.

Also, do you have an actual house rule document that you print out and share with your players? You are looking at it. :D

One extra note - the minimum AR result is equal to the amount of bonuses represented in the AR. Thus, if the AR only consists of armor bonus, the minimum damage reduction will be 1. However, if armor and shield are both being used, the minimum will be 2. Using armor, shield, and natural armor will result in the minimum being 3. We considered having a roll for each bonus and then combining the result, but thought this would be a simpler model.

So far we are enjoying the system due to its "realism" and simplicity.
weasel fierce
09-10-05, 01:13 PM I'd propably still let armour, at least heavy types, give a very small AC bonus, 1 or 2 points maybe, possibly 3 points for types that cover the entire body in plate or similar.

Simply to reflect that the armour may cause some attacks to deflect or glide off. Similar to GURPS 3E's Passive Defense.
Jerks
09-10-05, 01:26 PM The way I run it, your base armor value is divided in half (like Unearthed Arcana) but instead of adding to DR and AC, half goes to X/adamantine DR and half goes to damage conversion. (So, some damage is converted to subdual.) If there's an odd number, it goes to conversion.

Adamantine weapons ignore the DR of armor, and some weapons are designated Armor Piercing, which allows them to ignore the damage conversion. Adamantine armor is better, since it grants X/- DR and it ignores the AP quality of non-adamantine weapons.

I thought changing armor DR to DR/adamtine but decided against this for fear of making adamantine weapons "must have" items. Of course as GM you are the ultimate arbiter of the proliferation of these types of items, but it still seems like it would make adamantine a bit too good.
Crash01234567890
09-10-05, 03:51 PM Doesn't magic cut through DR/admantine. Or have I just been on too much crack lately. I'm no quite used to 3.5 yet.

As to letting heavier armor have a bonus to AC. You can run it like it is in UA where you add half to AC and half to DR, but really the damage reduction is representing it sliding off just as much as an AC bonus.

Actually more so because an AC bonus makes you harder to hit and the attack doesn't hit to slide off. While damage reduction represents the armor lessening the effect of the blow, and if the blow is reduced enough, it just glances off.

I've got an AP sysem also. Actually I've got two, one for my casual gamers (who prefer this system) and another for my hardcore gamers. The basic one is based on the crit multiplier. x2 have no AP, 19-20/x2 have an AP2, x3 have an AP4, and x4 have an AP6 meaning they get through almost anything. This makes picks a lot more devestating against armored aponents. The AP has no effect on higher quality materials or magic materials unless it's of equal or higher quality. Magic Weapons add their magic bonus to AP. Likewise admantine weapons add the bonus they would normally get as an enhancement to their AP. Magic armors and Admantine armors add their enhancement bonus to AC instead of Damage reduction, but each point of enhancement negates one point of AP.

The more complex one is too extensive to post here as it has a different AP for each weapon.

The damage reduction givin by armor is represented in my game by DR/crit, and is only negated by criticals or AP values higher than the damage reduction.

We also have a called shot rule, but it can get quite extensive too so I'll refrain from posting it.
Korimyr the Rat
09-12-05, 08:37 AM I thought changing armor DR to DR/adamtine but decided against this for fear of making adamantine weapons "must have" items.

That's something I'm a little worried about, as well-- but I'm more worried about characters accruing a good deal of X/- DR. This is especially ugly for monsters with good natural armor values, which I've already had a good deal of problems accomodating.

I also have some trouble visualizing how an adamantine scimitar can slice right through a stone wall or a steel-reinforced chest, and somehow be resisted by a chain shirt.
Greg_K
09-12-05, 11:27 AM I thought changing armor DR to DR/adamtine but decided against this for fear of making adamantine weapons "must have" items. Of course as GM you are the ultimate arbiter of the proliferation of these types of items, but it still seems like it would make adamantine a bit too good.

The solution is simple. Do not allow adamantine weapons.
Jerks
09-12-05, 11:55 AM It's a bit of a stretch to believe that a adamantine weapon can slice through a stone wall, but be impeded by armor; however, that's how it works right now anyway.

I'm just hoping that the player's won't notice that particular flaw in logic.

One thing about this DR/- system is that Dwarven Defenders can get some really obscene DR! Throw him in some Exotic Adamantine Dwarven Armor and just watch the spears bounce off him. A 10th level Defender could have a DR as high as 6 from class, 3 from adamantine, 5 from battle plate for a whopping DR 14/-.

And that's assuming you don't totally cheeze it out and take some Pious Templar or Barbarian levels too
Thelon Fairblade
09-12-05, 02:19 PM Please remember that your 10th level DEfender is a 17th level character. Most oponent shul dbe doing 30+ damage to him, more perhaps since he doesn't have the AC bonus to make some of those attacks totally miss. DR 14 is no big deal when the barbarian can safely toss 10 BAB into his axe for +20 damage, seeing how your AC is no longer getting the 10 points of armor bonus it used to. He is not just as accurate as he used to be, and is landing hits for 6 additional damage per hit.

I like the idea of armor as DR, but I just haven't gotten to a system that stands the test of high and low levels yet. The best solution I've seen is to essentially give Combat Expertise to everyone for free, too (or Class-Based AC)... thus your skill with weapons is what keeps you from getting splattered, and the armor is for when you mess up.
Jerks
09-12-05, 02:39 PM I wouldn't call DR 14/- insignificant at the level, but you are right, it is not game breaking. The AC penalty isn't as high as you seem to think however (at least not under the Unearthed Arcana rules). The existing AC is split in half, so the Defender loses about 5 points of AC. A significant loss to be sure, but not as bad as a loss of 10 points.

But you are right that DR doesn't scale perfectly with the D&D system. The problem of course is that it's a hit point system. As hit points rise, each individual hit point becomes less significant because characters have more and they tend to do more damage. So in effect, DR becomes less useful in later levels.

Despite the problems I think it's a playable system, and has made my low-level campaign more enjoyable for the players (well that and the Vitality/Wound system). It's makes low level play a bit more forgiving. If we get to level 17 I'm sure the PCs will have enough tricks up their sleeves to survive the slight drop in AC.
s4uc3m4n
09-13-05, 12:31 PM The way I run it, your base armor value is divided in half (like Unearthed Arcana) but instead of adding to DR and AC, half goes to X/adamantine DR and half goes to damage conversion. (So, some damage is converted to subdual.) If there's an odd number, it goes to conversion.

Magic armor adds directly to conversion, and every even plus adds to DR. (So a studded leather +2 is a bit better than a chain shirt +1.)

Adamantine weapons ignore the DR of armor, and some weapons are designated Armor Piercing, which allows them to ignore the damage conversion. Adamantine armor is better, since it grants X/- DR and it ignores the AP quality of non-adamantine weapons.

Natural armor works the same way, except for Dragons, Outsiders, Undead and Constructs. Dragons and Outsiders halve their natural armor before splitting it between DR and DC, but they get Class Defense Bonus for their HD. Constructs and Undead halve their natural armor before splitting it and lose the benefit of conversion, but their natural armor is X/-. (Constructs use the better of their X/adamantine or X/- DR whenever struck.)

edit: Oh, and shields work normally-- they keep attacks from hitting you.

One of the best ideas I have heard for this variant.
Robbo
09-17-05, 12:46 PM I'd be interested in seeing Crash's more detailed AP system as I'm working on one myself. Mine is shaping up to be a grid with weapon along one axis and armour along the other. My approach is to make it complex enough to satisfy demands for realism in small combats, yet base it on general principles that can be used in a simplified form when the party are fighting against a whole tribe of kobalds with the support of the town guard.

I use armour as DR, splitting the old AC between DR and conversion to subdual damage, VP/WP (though with more even WP than just = Co), and a class defence bonus too.

The kind of actions/choices I want to encourage in smaller more detailed combats include deciding whether to keep your visor down or not (limited visibility and early exhaustion vs vulnerable face), whether to aim at certain body parts because they are unarmoured or damaging them will have certain additional effects, etc. I use a "called shot" / "damage modification according to location of hit" system similar to Against The Darkness. I also use some of the combat options from The Book of Iron Might to allow for more creative attack options.
caeruleus
09-17-05, 01:26 PM I've used a fairly simple system. (First of all, there's a defense bonus to AC that's 2 + (BAB / 2).) Any armor bonus or natural armor bonus just becomes damage reduction X/-.

What makes that work in this campaign is the fact that the PCs pretty much have no magic, there are no fantastical monsters, and the best armor available is chainmail. It's been a very good and gritty campaign so far (some of my group plays it on the side, it's not our main campaign).
Crash01234567890
09-17-05, 02:39 PM Don't know when I'll have time to type it all up, but basically each armor in my advanced AP section has three seperate DRs. Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing. Most weapons don't actually have AP, but a few more powerful ones in the type category do. It makes carrying more types of weapons so you can get through different types of armor easier a must.

I've actually seen two-weapon fighters use light hammers in their off-hands in this system. Which was a first. Anyway I'll try post it on here sometime this week, but I've got a killer Philosophy exam so don't hold your breath.
JohnSnow
09-20-05, 02:55 PM FWIW, Malhavoc's new variant Player's Handbook, Iron Heroes, uses armor to provide DR rather than boosting AC.

AC is renamed "Defense" and classes get a "base defense bonus" in addition to their base attack bonus.

Armor DR, however, is mostly non-static. As a starter, here's the armor DR values:

Light Armor
Padded: DR 1
Leather: DR 1d2
Studded leather: DR 1d3
Medium Armor
Scale mail: DR 1d4
Chainmail: DR 1d4
Heavy Armor
Banded mail: DR 1d6
Full plate: DR 1d8

That's it. Shields still provide a (passive) bonus to Defense.

For the rest of the values in the (non-OGL) armor table, I refer you to the Iron Heroes book.
RaspK FOG
09-22-05, 06:32 PM What I do is this: all armours provide a DR as shown in UA without applying any armour bonus to AC, but they apply their original armour bonus to AC against criticals... Of course, I also use the VP/WP system (with minor modifications) as well as my own variant on criticals (which are dealt by surpassing your target's AC); finally, I count natural 1s as -10s and natural 20s as +30s as found in the optional rule in the DMG.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Laszlo Koller 09-09-05, 02:56 PM	I'm curious to learn what house rules gamers use when implementing an "armor as damage reduction" system. I know that Unearthed Arcana has some optional rules regarding this, but does anyone use any other d20 publisher's system (or perhaps, home grown rules)? If so, can you briefly comment on the mechanics of the system you use. Thanks.
Gold Katana 09-09-05, 05:55 PM	My group is enjoying a home brew. Armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses do not get added to AC. Instead, those bonuses get added together to form "armor reduction" (AR). When hit for physical damage, the player rolls a die equal to his AR, that amount is subtracted from damage taken. Sometimes you have to be a little innovative with the die, such as with an AR7 - you roll a D8 and ignore 8's. Thus, armor does not stop you from being hit but does stop you from taking damage. We are also using VP/WP from UA, so AR is completely bypassed on a critical.
GFC_Seracule 09-09-05, 06:08 PM	So all attacks always hit? And what about when attacks do 50 damage? That sounds pretty weird.
Laszlo Koller 09-09-05, 06:32 PM	How do you handle monsters? (I assume that you subtract their relevant armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses adding them into AR; leaving the remainder of bonuses in their AC.) Also, do you have an actual house rule document that you print out and share with your players? If so, would you mind sharing it? Thanks. My group is enjoying a home brew. Armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses do not get added to AC. Instead, those bonuses get added together to form "armor reduction" (AR). When hit for physical damage, the player rolls a die equal to his AR, that amount is subtracted from damage taken. Sometimes you have to be a little innovative with the die, such as with an AR7 - you roll a D8 and ignore 8's. Thus, armor does not stop you from being hit but does stop you from taking damage. We are also using VP/WP from UA, so AR is completely bypassed on a critical.
Crash01234567890 09-10-05, 02:00 AM	I do something similar, well kind of. I run it wear your armor bonus is straight damage reduction. Magic bonuses still apply to your AC but your armor doesn't. Shields and such add to A.C. also. This damage reduction doesn't stack with natural damage reduction and is bypassed on a critical. Natural Armor gives you natural damage reduaction (Doesn't stack with armor damage reduction) but it isn't bypassed on a critical. Shields and magical effects still effect your AC in my game though because really if you think about it shields do make people harder to hit and armor doesn't. Armor just makes them harder to hurt when you hit. We run a VP/WP system also (although it's modified quite a bit) so the natural damage reduction from normal natural armor is a big deal since it will even reduce wound point damage from criticals.
Korimyr the Rat 09-10-05, 05:17 AM	The way I run it, your base armor value is divided in half (like Unearthed Arcana) but instead of adding to DR and AC, half goes to X/adamantine DR and half goes to damage conversion. (So, some damage is converted to subdual.) If there's an odd number, it goes to conversion. Magic armor adds directly to conversion, and every even plus adds to DR. (So a studded leather +2 is a bit better than a chain shirt +1.) Adamantine weapons ignore the DR of armor, and some weapons are designated Armor Piercing, which allows them to ignore the damage conversion. Adamantine armor is better, since it grants X/- DR and it ignores the AP quality of non-adamantine weapons. Natural armor works the same way, except for Dragons, Outsiders, Undead and Constructs. Dragons and Outsiders halve their natural armor before splitting it between DR and DC, but they get Class Defense Bonus for their HD. Constructs and Undead halve their natural armor before splitting it and lose the benefit of conversion, but their natural armor is X/-. (Constructs use the better of their X/adamantine or X/- DR whenever struck.) edit: Oh, and shields work normally-- they keep attacks from hitting you.
Gold Katana 09-10-05, 11:32 AM	So all attacks always hit? No, only those attacks which meet or beat the AC. Only the AC does not take into account armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses. How do you handle monsters? (I assume that you subtract their relevant armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses adding them into AR; leaving the remainder of bonuses in their AC.) Correct. It is very straightforward and easy to use. Essentially, you are using their current touch AC - remainder is their AR. Also, do you have an actual house rule document that you print out and share with your players? You are looking at it. :D One extra note - the minimum AR result is equal to the amount of bonuses represented in the AR. Thus, if the AR only consists of armor bonus, the minimum damage reduction will be 1. However, if armor and shield are both being used, the minimum will be 2. Using armor, shield, and natural armor will result in the minimum being 3. We considered having a roll for each bonus and then combining the result, but thought this would be a simpler model. So far we are enjoying the system due to its "realism" and simplicity.
weasel fierce 09-10-05, 01:13 PM	I'd propably still let armour, at least heavy types, give a very small AC bonus, 1 or 2 points maybe, possibly 3 points for types that cover the entire body in plate or similar. Simply to reflect that the armour may cause some attacks to deflect or glide off. Similar to GURPS 3E's Passive Defense.
Jerks 09-10-05, 01:26 PM	The way I run it, your base armor value is divided in half (like Unearthed Arcana) but instead of adding to DR and AC, half goes to X/adamantine DR and half goes to damage conversion. (So, some damage is converted to subdual.) If there's an odd number, it goes to conversion. Adamantine weapons ignore the DR of armor, and some weapons are designated Armor Piercing, which allows them to ignore the damage conversion. Adamantine armor is better, since it grants X/- DR and it ignores the AP quality of non-adamantine weapons. I thought changing armor DR to DR/adamtine but decided against this for fear of making adamantine weapons "must have" items. Of course as GM you are the ultimate arbiter of the proliferation of these types of items, but it still seems like it would make adamantine a bit too good.
Crash01234567890 09-10-05, 03:51 PM	Doesn't magic cut through DR/admantine. Or have I just been on too much crack lately. I'm no quite used to 3.5 yet. As to letting heavier armor have a bonus to AC. You can run it like it is in UA where you add half to AC and half to DR, but really the damage reduction is representing it sliding off just as much as an AC bonus. Actually more so because an AC bonus makes you harder to hit and the attack doesn't hit to slide off. While damage reduction represents the armor lessening the effect of the blow, and if the blow is reduced enough, it just glances off. I've got an AP sysem also. Actually I've got two, one for my casual gamers (who prefer this system) and another for my hardcore gamers. The basic one is based on the crit multiplier. x2 have no AP, 19-20/x2 have an AP2, x3 have an AP4, and x4 have an AP6 meaning they get through almost anything. This makes picks a lot more devestating against armored aponents. The AP has no effect on higher quality materials or magic materials unless it's of equal or higher quality. Magic Weapons add their magic bonus to AP. Likewise admantine weapons add the bonus they would normally get as an enhancement to their AP. Magic armors and Admantine armors add their enhancement bonus to AC instead of Damage reduction, but each point of enhancement negates one point of AP. The more complex one is too extensive to post here as it has a different AP for each weapon. The damage reduction givin by armor is represented in my game by DR/crit, and is only negated by criticals or AP values higher than the damage reduction. We also have a called shot rule, but it can get quite extensive too so I'll refrain from posting it.
Korimyr the Rat 09-12-05, 08:37 AM	I thought changing armor DR to DR/adamtine but decided against this for fear of making adamantine weapons "must have" items. That's something I'm a little worried about, as well-- but I'm more worried about characters accruing a good deal of X/- DR. This is especially ugly for monsters with good natural armor values, which I've already had a good deal of problems accomodating. I also have some trouble visualizing how an adamantine scimitar can slice right through a stone wall or a steel-reinforced chest, and somehow be resisted by a chain shirt.
Greg_K 09-12-05, 11:27 AM	I thought changing armor DR to DR/adamtine but decided against this for fear of making adamantine weapons "must have" items. Of course as GM you are the ultimate arbiter of the proliferation of these types of items, but it still seems like it would make adamantine a bit too good. The solution is simple. Do not allow adamantine weapons.
Jerks 09-12-05, 11:55 AM	It's a bit of a stretch to believe that a adamantine weapon can slice through a stone wall, but be impeded by armor; however, that's how it works right now anyway. I'm just hoping that the player's won't notice that particular flaw in logic. One thing about this DR/- system is that Dwarven Defenders can get some really obscene DR! Throw him in some Exotic Adamantine Dwarven Armor and just watch the spears bounce off him. A 10th level Defender could have a DR as high as 6 from class, 3 from adamantine, 5 from battle plate for a whopping DR 14/-. And that's assuming you don't totally cheeze it out and take some Pious Templar or Barbarian levels too
Thelon Fairblade 09-12-05, 02:19 PM	Please remember that your 10th level DEfender is a 17th level character. Most oponent shul dbe doing 30+ damage to him, more perhaps since he doesn't have the AC bonus to make some of those attacks totally miss. DR 14 is no big deal when the barbarian can safely toss 10 BAB into his axe for +20 damage, seeing how your AC is no longer getting the 10 points of armor bonus it used to. He is not just as accurate as he used to be, and is landing hits for 6 additional damage per hit. I like the idea of armor as DR, but I just haven't gotten to a system that stands the test of high and low levels yet. The best solution I've seen is to essentially give Combat Expertise to everyone for free, too (or Class-Based AC)... thus your skill with weapons is what keeps you from getting splattered, and the armor is for when you mess up.
Jerks 09-12-05, 02:39 PM	I wouldn't call DR 14/- insignificant at the level, but you are right, it is not game breaking. The AC penalty isn't as high as you seem to think however (at least not under the Unearthed Arcana rules). The existing AC is split in half, so the Defender loses about 5 points of AC. A significant loss to be sure, but not as bad as a loss of 10 points. But you are right that DR doesn't scale perfectly with the D&D system. The problem of course is that it's a hit point system. As hit points rise, each individual hit point becomes less significant because characters have more and they tend to do more damage. So in effect, DR becomes less useful in later levels. Despite the problems I think it's a playable system, and has made my low-level campaign more enjoyable for the players (well that and the Vitality/Wound system). It's makes low level play a bit more forgiving. If we get to level 17 I'm sure the PCs will have enough tricks up their sleeves to survive the slight drop in AC.
s4uc3m4n 09-13-05, 12:31 PM	The way I run it, your base armor value is divided in half (like Unearthed Arcana) but instead of adding to DR and AC, half goes to X/adamantine DR and half goes to damage conversion. (So, some damage is converted to subdual.) If there's an odd number, it goes to conversion. Magic armor adds directly to conversion, and every even plus adds to DR. (So a studded leather +2 is a bit better than a chain shirt +1.) Adamantine weapons ignore the DR of armor, and some weapons are designated Armor Piercing, which allows them to ignore the damage conversion. Adamantine armor is better, since it grants X/- DR and it ignores the AP quality of non-adamantine weapons. Natural armor works the same way, except for Dragons, Outsiders, Undead and Constructs. Dragons and Outsiders halve their natural armor before splitting it between DR and DC, but they get Class Defense Bonus for their HD. Constructs and Undead halve their natural armor before splitting it and lose the benefit of conversion, but their natural armor is X/-. (Constructs use the better of their X/adamantine or X/- DR whenever struck.) edit: Oh, and shields work normally-- they keep attacks from hitting you. One of the best ideas I have heard for this variant.
Robbo 09-17-05, 12:46 PM	I'd be interested in seeing Crash's more detailed AP system as I'm working on one myself. Mine is shaping up to be a grid with weapon along one axis and armour along the other. My approach is to make it complex enough to satisfy demands for realism in small combats, yet base it on general principles that can be used in a simplified form when the party are fighting against a whole tribe of kobalds with the support of the town guard. I use armour as DR, splitting the old AC between DR and conversion to subdual damage, VP/WP (though with more even WP than just = Co), and a class defence bonus too. The kind of actions/choices I want to encourage in smaller more detailed combats include deciding whether to keep your visor down or not (limited visibility and early exhaustion vs vulnerable face), whether to aim at certain body parts because they are unarmoured or damaging them will have certain additional effects, etc. I use a "called shot" / "damage modification according to location of hit" system similar to Against The Darkness. I also use some of the combat options from The Book of Iron Might to allow for more creative attack options.
caeruleus 09-17-05, 01:26 PM	I've used a fairly simple system. (First of all, there's a defense bonus to AC that's 2 + (BAB / 2).) Any armor bonus or natural armor bonus just becomes damage reduction X/-. What makes that work in this campaign is the fact that the PCs pretty much have no magic, there are no fantastical monsters, and the best armor available is chainmail. It's been a very good and gritty campaign so far (some of my group plays it on the side, it's not our main campaign).
Crash01234567890 09-17-05, 02:39 PM	Don't know when I'll have time to type it all up, but basically each armor in my advanced AP section has three seperate DRs. Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing. Most weapons don't actually have AP, but a few more powerful ones in the type category do. It makes carrying more types of weapons so you can get through different types of armor easier a must. I've actually seen two-weapon fighters use light hammers in their off-hands in this system. Which was a first. Anyway I'll try post it on here sometime this week, but I've got a killer Philosophy exam so don't hold your breath.
JohnSnow 09-20-05, 02:55 PM	FWIW, Malhavoc's new variant Player's Handbook, Iron Heroes, uses armor to provide DR rather than boosting AC. AC is renamed "Defense" and classes get a "base defense bonus" in addition to their base attack bonus. Armor DR, however, is mostly non-static. As a starter, here's the armor DR values: Light Armor Padded: DR 1 Leather: DR 1d2 Studded leather: DR 1d3 Medium Armor Scale mail: DR 1d4 Chainmail: DR 1d4 Heavy Armor Banded mail: DR 1d6 Full plate: DR 1d8 That's it. Shields still provide a (passive) bonus to Defense. For the rest of the values in the (non-OGL) armor table, I refer you to the Iron Heroes book.
RaspK FOG 09-22-05, 06:32 PM	What I do is this: all armours provide a DR as shown in UA without applying any armour bonus to AC, but they apply their original armour bonus to AC against criticals... Of course, I also use the VP/WP system (with minor modifications) as well as my own variant on criticals (which are dealt by surpassing your target's AC); finally, I count natural 1s as -10s and natural 20s as +30s as found in the optional rule in the DMG.