Armor as DR vs. Warforged Body feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor as DR vs. Warforged Body feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Darth_Singe
10-14-06, 09:49 AM Hey guys,
I am using the Armor as DR variant from Unearthed Arcana, and I am about to introduce Warforged into my Non-Eberron but highly scavenged from Eberron Drow campaign (where the Civilizaed Spider Llolth worshippers are about to defeat the Barbarian Scorpion worshipers). In my world the Warforged were created by the Scorpion Drow using ancient technology from a time before a great cataclysm.
Anyway, all that aside, I rolled up the first Warforged enemy the pc's will face, and grabbed the Adamantine body feat. Which is when I ran into my issue. lol

As you may now, Adamantine body gives a +8 armor bonus and DR 2/Adamantine.

My question is, would the Armor as DR variant make Adamantine body give +4 AC, DR 4/-, and DR 2/Adamantine?

I ruled that the feat gave +4 AC, and DR 6/Adamantine.

What do you other guys do?
Seldriss
10-14-06, 11:39 AM It gives +4 AC & DR 4/adamantine.

According to Unearthed Arcana, the DR is equal to half the original armor bonus.
And the armor AC is then reduced by this same bonus.
Thus, the +8 AC armor gives DR4/adamantine, and becomes itself +4AC.

(Although i like the DR of armors, personally i don't agree with this reduction of the AC. So i use full AC bonus and DR. Much better in my opinion. And players love it).
Bob Loblaw
10-14-06, 11:55 AM From what I can tell, it should be AC +4, DR 4/-, and DR 2/adamantine.

This would mean that he would ignore 6 points of damage from non-adamantine weapons and 4 points from adamantine weapons.

At least that's how I read it. I tend to get confused with the DR rules sometimes.
Darth_Singe
10-14-06, 12:20 PM It gives +4 AC & DR 4/adamantine.

According to Unearthed Arcana, the DR is equal to half the original armor bonus.
And the armor AC is then reduced by this same bonus.
Thus, the +8 AC armor gives DR4/adamantine, and becomes itself +4AC.

(Although i like the DR of armors, personally i don't agree with this reduction of the AC. So i use full AC bonus and DR. Much better in my opinion. And players love it).

I use a homebrewed Class Defense Bonu system based on D20 Modern, so it works out ok :)
PhaedrusXY
10-14-06, 12:37 PM Damage reduction from different sources doesn't stack unless it specifically says so. Since the character would have DR 4/- from the full plate, the DR 2/adamantine would be useless.

However, I think it should work like Bob Loblaw said. I don't know if there is a special provision in this alternate rules section in UA talking about adamantine armor. There isn't one in the hypertext srd. I think they should get some extra DR from having adamantine armor. Otherwise, adamatine armor becomes useless in a game using this variant.
sigma999
10-14-06, 06:25 PM I houseruled a "Damage Conversion" (DCnv) attribute. DCnv changes lethal damage into subdual from each non-elemental source by a numeric amount.
To test, all armors have a DC value equal to their AC bonus. Each physical blow is softened by layers of cloth, leather, or steel before damaging living tissue and bone. An untrained fist on plate mail is almost worthless but does jar the bearer around a bit, as it should be.

Then I applied a DCnv value to Base Fortitude, so a level 1 Fighter would have Damage Conversion 2. 2 points from a sword slash, a fall, a hit from a flying chair, a rock, a punch, and so on becomes subdual.

Constructs and Undead create difficulty implementing this rule as a Warforged instead gains the equivalent of Damage Reduction. :O
Then again, they don't have genitals. And they look like Ninja Turtles. So. Hey. It's all balanced in the end. :P

With the UA "armor as DR" houserule I saw opportunity to test out the above DCnv rule with all armor values. I applied it to mechanical and natural armor bonuses at full value; armor AC bonus is NOT reduced and instead of giving DR (half bonus) / adamantine it gives DCnv (full bonus) / magic.
Yes, I am biased against adamantine as the end-all for weapon materials due it's rarity. If you want armor that has DR #/adamantine, make the armor adamantine and the DCnv becomes DR. Voila.

But what about this natural armor bonus as DC, you might ask?
A giant, for instance, with it's full Fortitude bonuses and huge natural armor value (about equal to it's HD usually!) begins to treat greatsword blows as a human shrugs off light punches. Ouch.
Battles became a lot less lethal, to put it mildly.

With higher level PCs, though, these protections are near-worthless. Warriors dish out tremendous damage and are usually effective at dispatching even the toughest armored foes. The difference is that now there are physical defenses to balance those ridiculously high Spell Resistances and Elemental Immunities so common to powerful creatures, and low level characters can survive battles better (as long as they can stay conscious!).
Coup de grace maneuvers are more important, since you will want to make sure your armored enemies are actually dead and not just battered senseless... if you actually want to kill them, that is.

I have reservations about this idea but I like it too much to let go!
Neofish
10-14-06, 08:21 PM As you may now, Adamantine body gives a +8 armor bonus and DR 2/Adamantine.

My question is, would the Armor as DR variant make Adamantine body give +4 AC, DR 4/-, and DR 2/Adamantine?

I ruled that the feat gave +4 AC, and DR 6/Adamantine.

What do you other guys do?

Basically, I let them stack, then again, I let all forms of DR stack in my game, I think it's retared to think that they don't in the first place, but thats just me.

Any, if you don't wish to rule it like that, i'd say give him DR4/- (full plate) and DR 6/Adamantine, that way the warforged still gains the benefit of his adamantine damage reduction that he would otherwise have in a regular game.

Also, for those saying that adamantine armor is useless in the Armor as DR variant, I suggest you go re-read your DMG, adamantine grants a DR x/- to armor depending on what size it is. DR of the same type stacks. So, a suit of adamantine fullplate in the Armor as DR variant would have a armor bonus of +4 and a DR value of 7/-, pretty sweet imo.
Seldriss
10-14-06, 08:27 PM From what I can tell, it should be AC +4, DR 4/-, and DR 2/adamantine.
This would mean that he would ignore 6 points of damage from non-adamantine weapons and 4 points from adamantine weapons.
You think ?
The DR 2/adam would not be combined with the 4/- ?
A reduction of 6 points of damage from each blow seems a lot, especially at low levels...
A friend of mine, who was playing a warforged, might consider taking him back (long story)...

Basically, I let them stack, then again, I let all forms of DR stack in my game, I think it's retared to think that they don't in the first place, but thats just me.
I agree. If protections can stack, DR too.
I am just hesitant towards the 4/- and 2/adam, whether it is altogether 4/adam, 4/- or 6/-
PhaedrusXY
10-14-06, 08:37 PM Also, for those saying that adamantine armor is useless in the Armor as DR variant, I suggest you go re-read your DMG, adamantine grants a DR x/- to armor depending on what size it is. DR of the same type stacks. So, a suit of adamantine fullplate in the Armor as DR variant would have a armor bonus of +4 and a DR value of 7/-, pretty sweet imo.Ah, you are correct! I was thinking that Adamantine armor gave you DR X/adamantine. So yes, I think they should definitely stack. Here is the relevant section on the Armor as Damage Reduction variant from the hypertext srd: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm) Stacking Damage Reduction
The damage reduction granted by armor stacks with other damage reduction of the same type (that is, damage reduction that has a dash after the number). A 7th-level barbarian wearing a breastplate has DR 3/- (1/- from his class levels and 2/- from his armor). A fighter wearing full plate armor who is the target of a stoneskin spell, however, has DR 4/- from the armor and 10/adamantine from the spell. I also think that it is kind of silly that the warforged Adamatine Body feat gives them DR 2/adamatine, instead of what real adamatine fullplate gives. I guess that was done for some sort of "balance" purposes, though...
allenchan
10-16-06, 10:32 PM Also, for those saying that adamantine armor is useless in the Armor as DR variant, I suggest you go re-read your DMG, adamantine grants a DR x/- to armor depending on what size it is. DR of the same type stacks. So, a suit of adamantine fullplate in the Armor as DR variant would have a armor bonus of +4 and a DR value of 7/-, pretty sweet imo.

This is how I do it. Pretty much any armor that gives DR/X in my campaign simply adds to the DR/- value. Granted, this meant the PCs went up against a blackgaurd with DR 6/-, but it was fun, and the fireball still wrecked his house :)
Neofish
10-17-06, 08:15 AM This is how I do it. Pretty much any armor that gives DR/X in my campaign simply adds to the DR/- value. Granted, this meant the PCs went up against a blackgaurd with DR 6/-, but it was fun, and the fireball still wrecked his house :)

I think you misquoted me for your reference, but I get what you are saying and I agree.

I don't understnad what being tough doesn't stack, if I have DR 5/silver and DR 5/Evil I should have DR 10, 5 of which can be negated by a silver or evil, or all of which can be negated by a an evil silver weapon. It just means certain things are effective against me, but they don't strip me down into being completely defenseless.
Thelon Fairblade
10-17-06, 01:41 PM DR 5/evil and DR 5/silver means you really have "DR 5/evil or silver". A normal weapon has its damage reduce 5 pts. an evil or silver weapon negates all 5 of your DR. An evil AND silver weapon... well, it also breaches all 5 DR, nothing extra.

If you wanted "DR 10, but only DR 5 if the weapon is evil or silver, and DR 0 against silver & evil weapons", then you would essentially have:
DR 5/ silver & evil, DR 10/ silver or evil

A normal weapon strikes the DR 10 rating.
A silver or evil weapon pierces the DR 10 rating, but doesn't pierce the DR 5 rating.
An EVIL SILVER weapon pierces both types, and strike for full damage.
Thelon Fairblade
10-17-06, 01:49 PM Incidentally, answering the OP's question, I would say mechanically -- optional rule's intent kept -- the end result should be

DR 4/-, DR 6/adamantine.

He would get DR 6 unless the weapon was adamantine, but would still get the same minimum DR 4 any full plate gets against every weapon.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darth_Singe 10-14-06, 09:49 AM	Hey guys, I am using the Armor as DR variant from Unearthed Arcana, and I am about to introduce Warforged into my Non-Eberron but highly scavenged from Eberron Drow campaign (where the Civilizaed Spider Llolth worshippers are about to defeat the Barbarian Scorpion worshipers). In my world the Warforged were created by the Scorpion Drow using ancient technology from a time before a great cataclysm. Anyway, all that aside, I rolled up the first Warforged enemy the pc's will face, and grabbed the Adamantine body feat. Which is when I ran into my issue. lol As you may now, Adamantine body gives a +8 armor bonus and DR 2/Adamantine. My question is, would the Armor as DR variant make Adamantine body give +4 AC, DR 4/-, and DR 2/Adamantine? I ruled that the feat gave +4 AC, and DR 6/Adamantine. What do you other guys do?
Seldriss 10-14-06, 11:39 AM	It gives +4 AC & DR 4/adamantine. According to Unearthed Arcana, the DR is equal to half the original armor bonus. And the armor AC is then reduced by this same bonus. Thus, the +8 AC armor gives DR4/adamantine, and becomes itself +4AC. (Although i like the DR of armors, personally i don't agree with this reduction of the AC. So i use full AC bonus and DR. Much better in my opinion. And players love it).
Bob Loblaw 10-14-06, 11:55 AM	From what I can tell, it should be AC +4, DR 4/-, and DR 2/adamantine. This would mean that he would ignore 6 points of damage from non-adamantine weapons and 4 points from adamantine weapons. At least that's how I read it. I tend to get confused with the DR rules sometimes.
Darth_Singe 10-14-06, 12:20 PM	It gives +4 AC & DR 4/adamantine. According to Unearthed Arcana, the DR is equal to half the original armor bonus. And the armor AC is then reduced by this same bonus. Thus, the +8 AC armor gives DR4/adamantine, and becomes itself +4AC. (Although i like the DR of armors, personally i don't agree with this reduction of the AC. So i use full AC bonus and DR. Much better in my opinion. And players love it). I use a homebrewed Class Defense Bonu system based on D20 Modern, so it works out ok :)
PhaedrusXY 10-14-06, 12:37 PM	Damage reduction from different sources doesn't stack unless it specifically says so. Since the character would have DR 4/- from the full plate, the DR 2/adamantine would be useless. However, I think it should work like Bob Loblaw said. I don't know if there is a special provision in this alternate rules section in UA talking about adamantine armor. There isn't one in the hypertext srd. I think they should get some extra DR from having adamantine armor. Otherwise, adamatine armor becomes useless in a game using this variant.
sigma999 10-14-06, 06:25 PM	I houseruled a "Damage Conversion" (DCnv) attribute. DCnv changes lethal damage into subdual from each non-elemental source by a numeric amount. To test, all armors have a DC value equal to their AC bonus. Each physical blow is softened by layers of cloth, leather, or steel before damaging living tissue and bone. An untrained fist on plate mail is almost worthless but does jar the bearer around a bit, as it should be. Then I applied a DCnv value to Base Fortitude, so a level 1 Fighter would have Damage Conversion 2. 2 points from a sword slash, a fall, a hit from a flying chair, a rock, a punch, and so on becomes subdual. Constructs and Undead create difficulty implementing this rule as a Warforged instead gains the equivalent of Damage Reduction. :O Then again, they don't have genitals. And they look like Ninja Turtles. So. Hey. It's all balanced in the end. :P With the UA "armor as DR" houserule I saw opportunity to test out the above DCnv rule with all armor values. I applied it to mechanical and natural armor bonuses at full value; armor AC bonus is NOT reduced and instead of giving DR (half bonus) / adamantine it gives DCnv (full bonus) / magic. Yes, I am biased against adamantine as the end-all for weapon materials due it's rarity. If you want armor that has DR #/adamantine, make the armor adamantine and the DCnv becomes DR. Voila. But what about this natural armor bonus as DC, you might ask? A giant, for instance, with it's full Fortitude bonuses and huge natural armor value (about equal to it's HD usually!) begins to treat greatsword blows as a human shrugs off light punches. Ouch. Battles became a lot less lethal, to put it mildly. With higher level PCs, though, these protections are near-worthless. Warriors dish out tremendous damage and are usually effective at dispatching even the toughest armored foes. The difference is that now there are physical defenses to balance those ridiculously high Spell Resistances and Elemental Immunities so common to powerful creatures, and low level characters can survive battles better (as long as they can stay conscious!). Coup de grace maneuvers are more important, since you will want to make sure your armored enemies are actually dead and not just battered senseless... if you actually want to kill them, that is. I have reservations about this idea but I like it too much to let go!
Neofish 10-14-06, 08:21 PM	As you may now, Adamantine body gives a +8 armor bonus and DR 2/Adamantine. My question is, would the Armor as DR variant make Adamantine body give +4 AC, DR 4/-, and DR 2/Adamantine? I ruled that the feat gave +4 AC, and DR 6/Adamantine. What do you other guys do? Basically, I let them stack, then again, I let all forms of DR stack in my game, I think it's retared to think that they don't in the first place, but thats just me. Any, if you don't wish to rule it like that, i'd say give him DR4/- (full plate) and DR 6/Adamantine, that way the warforged still gains the benefit of his adamantine damage reduction that he would otherwise have in a regular game. Also, for those saying that adamantine armor is useless in the Armor as DR variant, I suggest you go re-read your DMG, adamantine grants a DR x/- to armor depending on what size it is. DR of the same type stacks. So, a suit of adamantine fullplate in the Armor as DR variant would have a armor bonus of +4 and a DR value of 7/-, pretty sweet imo.
Seldriss 10-14-06, 08:27 PM	From what I can tell, it should be AC +4, DR 4/-, and DR 2/adamantine. This would mean that he would ignore 6 points of damage from non-adamantine weapons and 4 points from adamantine weapons. You think ? The DR 2/adam would not be combined with the 4/- ? A reduction of 6 points of damage from each blow seems a lot, especially at low levels... A friend of mine, who was playing a warforged, might consider taking him back (long story)... Basically, I let them stack, then again, I let all forms of DR stack in my game, I think it's retared to think that they don't in the first place, but thats just me. I agree. If protections can stack, DR too. I am just hesitant towards the 4/- and 2/adam, whether it is altogether 4/adam, 4/- or 6/-
PhaedrusXY 10-14-06, 08:37 PM	Also, for those saying that adamantine armor is useless in the Armor as DR variant, I suggest you go re-read your DMG, adamantine grants a DR x/- to armor depending on what size it is. DR of the same type stacks. So, a suit of adamantine fullplate in the Armor as DR variant would have a armor bonus of +4 and a DR value of 7/-, pretty sweet imo.Ah, you are correct! I was thinking that Adamantine armor gave you DR X/adamantine. So yes, I think they should definitely stack. Here is the relevant section on the Armor as Damage Reduction variant from the hypertext srd: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm) Stacking Damage Reduction The damage reduction granted by armor stacks with other damage reduction of the same type (that is, damage reduction that has a dash after the number). A 7th-level barbarian wearing a breastplate has DR 3/- (1/- from his class levels and 2/- from his armor). A fighter wearing full plate armor who is the target of a stoneskin spell, however, has DR 4/- from the armor and 10/adamantine from the spell. I also think that it is kind of silly that the warforged Adamatine Body feat gives them DR 2/adamatine, instead of what real adamatine fullplate gives. I guess that was done for some sort of "balance" purposes, though...
allenchan 10-16-06, 10:32 PM	Also, for those saying that adamantine armor is useless in the Armor as DR variant, I suggest you go re-read your DMG, adamantine grants a DR x/- to armor depending on what size it is. DR of the same type stacks. So, a suit of adamantine fullplate in the Armor as DR variant would have a armor bonus of +4 and a DR value of 7/-, pretty sweet imo. This is how I do it. Pretty much any armor that gives DR/X in my campaign simply adds to the DR/- value. Granted, this meant the PCs went up against a blackgaurd with DR 6/-, but it was fun, and the fireball still wrecked his house :)
Neofish 10-17-06, 08:15 AM	This is how I do it. Pretty much any armor that gives DR/X in my campaign simply adds to the DR/- value. Granted, this meant the PCs went up against a blackgaurd with DR 6/-, but it was fun, and the fireball still wrecked his house :) I think you misquoted me for your reference, but I get what you are saying and I agree. I don't understnad what being tough doesn't stack, if I have DR 5/silver and DR 5/Evil I should have DR 10, 5 of which can be negated by a silver or evil, or all of which can be negated by a an evil silver weapon. It just means certain things are effective against me, but they don't strip me down into being completely defenseless.
Thelon Fairblade 10-17-06, 01:41 PM	DR 5/evil and DR 5/silver means you really have "DR 5/evil or silver". A normal weapon has its damage reduce 5 pts. an evil or silver weapon negates all 5 of your DR. An evil AND silver weapon... well, it also breaches all 5 DR, nothing extra. If you wanted "DR 10, but only DR 5 if the weapon is evil or silver, and DR 0 against silver & evil weapons", then you would essentially have: DR 5/ silver & evil, DR 10/ silver or evil A normal weapon strikes the DR 10 rating. A silver or evil weapon pierces the DR 10 rating, but doesn't pierce the DR 5 rating. An EVIL SILVER weapon pierces both types, and strike for full damage.
Thelon Fairblade 10-17-06, 01:49 PM	Incidentally, answering the OP's question, I would say mechanically -- optional rule's intent kept -- the end result should be DR 4/-, DR 6/adamantine. He would get DR 6 unless the weapon was adamantine, but would still get the same minimum DR 4 any full plate gets against every weapon.