Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Buckler o' Swashes 03-07-05, 01:56 AM	Ok so i'm implementing the 'Armor as DR' system into my campaign, if you score a critical hit with the 'Armor as DR system' you bypass the armor DR. So doesnt this make the whole weapon critical system messed up? Scimitars should by more damaging with every hit, score criticals harder but better like the battleaxe (1d8/x3). And the axes and hammers should be put in the scimitars place so say Battleaxe(1d6/18-20 x2), crossbows should probably be (1d10/18-20 x2). So is this how it should work or am I missing something that gives non saber weapons an edge vs. armor?
Ranger REG 03-07-05, 02:05 AM	AFAIK, critical hits do not bypass armor's DR, if you're using the rules in Unearthed Arcana. The only system that allows critical hit to bypass armor's DR is from Star Wars.
Buckler o' Swashes 03-07-05, 03:40 AM	You're right about the Unearthed Arcana, I must've read the VP/WP system by accident or something but as far as I know DR applies to critical hits in Star Wars... that is one of the only points of it. Anyways there has to be some way to pierce DR, guess I'll have to make a way up.
Ra-Tiel 03-07-05, 05:47 AM	Hello. Just to add my comment: in revSWd20 DR only applies to Wound damage, never to Vitality damage. _Ra-Tiel.
Greyman 03-07-05, 06:40 PM	Ok so i'm implementing the 'Armor as DR' system into my campaign, if you score a critical hit with the 'Armor as DR system' you bypass the armor DR. So doesnt this make the whole weapon critical system messed up? Scimitars should by more damaging with every hit, score criticals harder but better like the battleaxe (1d8/x3). And the axes and hammers should be put in the scimitars place so say Battleaxe(1d6/18-20 x2), crossbows should probably be (1d10/18-20 x2). So is this how it should work or am I missing something that gives non saber weapons an edge vs. armor?You're right about the Unearthed Arcana, I must've read the VP/WP system by accident or something but as far as I know DR applies to critical hits in Star Wars... that is one of the only points of it. Anyways there has to be some way to pierce DR, guess I'll have to make a way up.Wait, wait, wait. You started out complaining that the ability to by-pass armour DR made critical hits unbalanced so they should be changed, but now that you've found out that critical hits don't by-pass armour DR, you want to make up a way to do so... :confused:
Buckler o' Swashes 03-07-05, 09:12 PM	No I didnt say they were unbalanced, I said it did not seem right to me that a scimitar or other curved blade weapons were superior to armor piercing weapons such as crossbows or heavy weapons such as axes and hammers at piercing armor... If critical hits allowed them to bypass DR.
Ranger REG 03-08-05, 03:34 AM	If you allow it to bypass DR on a critical hit, then why have critical hit damage multiplier? Most weapons that are crafted for armor piercing tend to penetrate armor but cause little flesh damage.
Grigori 03-08-05, 10:56 AM	If you allow it to bypass DR on a critical hit, then why have critical hit damage multiplier? Because it represents a very precise or very lucky strike. You either penetrated an opponents armor or bypassed it in some way (through luck or skill). Most weapons that are crafted for armor piercing tend to penetrate armor but cause little flesh damage. How on earth do you figure that? Your idea of 'little flesh damage' and mine must be wildly different. Most weapons that penetrate armor do fairly horrific damage either through design or the sheer force of the blow. An option to look into for variant combat that falls along these lines is at: www.wakinglands.com It covers armor as damage reduction and how piercing weapons and critical hits work with it. I tried it out almost a year ago in a campaign and my players have used it ever since.
Ranger REG 03-08-05, 05:42 PM	Because it represents a very precise or very lucky strike. You either penetrated an opponents armor or bypassed it in some way (through luck or skill). More like a double whammy to me: not only do you bypass DR but you also inflict double, triple, etc., your normal weapon damage.
Grigori 03-08-05, 08:47 PM	More like a double whammy to me: not only do you bypass DR but you also inflict double, triple, etc., your normal weapon damage. That's why it's a critical hit...
Greyman 03-08-05, 10:55 PM	The Armour as DR system makes the target easier to hit, but also reduces damage inflicted by each and every hit. As this rather roughly evens out (depending mostly on how much damage a weapon rolls), it's a balanced variant. However, a target being easier to hit also means it's easier to confirm a critical. Letting the damage inflicted fully overcome DR too seems somewhat excessive. However, the critical damage is rolled multuple times, but damage reduction is only applied once. The DR from armour isn't ever that high and, when enough damage is rolled on a critical hit, it's influence is only marginal. In the end, though, it will function as a safety margin for your players against death by massive damage. As nice as it is to inflict it against a foe, the PCs will face increasing chance of DBMD during their careers (as their foes start dishing out more damage). Let heavy armoured characters have that safety net.
Ranger REG 03-10-05, 04:03 AM	How on earth do you figure that? Your idea of 'little flesh damage' and mine must be wildly different. Perhaps, but not too farfetched. When they crafted armor-piercing arrows, the head is made to a finer point that can actually penetrate the armor, but because it is no longer broad as a normal arrowhead, it doesn't do that much wound trauma. It's like comparing a nail puncture to a needle puncture. (Yes, I've heard stories about people have nails imbedded within their body and live to tell the tale, some of them unaware for days, months, or years until they see their x-ray photo.) Fast-forward to modern period, them AP bullets are designed to penetrate protective armor but goes through flesh with fewer rate of tumbling. I mean if you like to cause great flesh damage, you need a bullet whose tip are hollow-point. A bullet that can deformed upon impacting soft target is most likely to tumble and that tumbling characteristic can basically rip and shred any organ or blood vessel in its path.
Robbo 03-12-05, 07:52 AM	Yes I agree with Ranger Reg on this. Remember there is a big difference between 12th century chainmail and 15th century full plate armour. Even armour piercing arrows, which were effective against chainmail, had trouble penetrating plate. The simple, logical, fact is - anything that provides protection against penetration is going to absorb some of the energy of that blow. So that even if the armour is penetrated, the destructive force is less than it would have been against an unarmoured target. Plate would generally have been worn over a layer of chain and a padded garment, both of which would provide extra force absorbtion. Armour piercing weapons (not missiles) included spikes on the rear of pole arms such as halberds, and picks. You only have to look at a picture of a halberd to realise that against an unarmoured target, the typical damage from the blade would far exceed the damage caused by the spike when used against an armoured target. So for increased realism, perhaps such pole arms should have 2 alternative attack modes. One additional variant I am starting to use with armour DR is specifying the DR of different parts of the "suite" of armour. For example, a long mail shirt will have a certain DR if hit, but lower legs, arms, head and neck may have less DR (say if padded protection is worn on arms and legs) or none at all (an unhelmeted head). Then when a blow hits, I determine where (by a % roll) and hence what the level of DR should be. For full plate, this means a tiny chance that the blow may get through the eye slits (if the weapon is slender enough - no DR at all), a low chance that it will hit an area only protected by the underlying chain (underarms, inner thighs, groin - reduced DR as per chainmail), but otherwise hits a steel plate and the full DR applies. The attacker can nominate a target location (similar to a called shot) which gets a negative adjustment to hit depending upon the difficulty, but will hit the target location if it succeeds. Another combat option is to deliberately try to damage the armour - for example with a pick, or mace, that either distorts it and so reduces the wearer's mobility, or causes enough damage to reduce its DR to the point at which a differnt weapon type can be effective. My aim is to achieve a system that means that 2 first level fighters wearing plate, and using long swords, would barely be able to damage each other at all, until one becomes exhausted and the other performs a coup de grace using his dagger! You can probably see that one of my priorities is to try to make humanoid vs humanoid combat a little more realistic, but the principles can be extended to moster types as well.