Armor as extra HP [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor as extra HP [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BeefotronX
08-25-06, 04:56 PM Would it be possible to treat armor as an extra block of HP?

I mean, rather than as a bonus to AC, or as damage reduction, armor provides a block of HP that absorbs most attacks.

The reason that it's a bit more complicated than just "treat all hits as sunder attacks on the armor", is because with item hardness and stuff, low-level characters are too invincible.

This is a variant rule that treats armor as an extra block of hit points rather than directly reducing chances of being hit.

AHP = (Normal AC bonus x 5) + material bonus + miscellaneous bonuses
The material bonus is the hardness of the material the armor is made of, rounded to the nearest 5.
Masterwork armor has an extra 5 AHP.
Magic armor has armor damage reduction (applied to damage dealt to the armor, not its wearer) equal to its enhancement bonus. The damage reduction granted by using adamantine now applies to the armor, not the wearer, and it does stack with the damage reduction from an enhancement bonus.

Using this rule, you don't normally consider the armor's AC bonus in attack rolls. Any attack that would have to consider the armor bonus now is buffered by AHP. Attacks that don't consider the armor bonus bypass AHP.

Exceptions-
In sneak attacks, you have to apply the normal AC bonus from the armor, but you get to bypass AHP.
Non-rogues may attempt sneak attacks (with no bonus damage dice, but under the same circumstances as rogues) to also bypass AHP.

A natural 20 on an attack roll always bypasses AHP. A critical hit that doesn't bypass AHP is divided between the armor and the wearer. One multiple of the weapon's normal damage is applied to the armor, while any remaining multiples are dealt to the wearer.

Example AHP ratings
Regular padded armor: 5 AHP
+4 padded armor: 30 AHP (AC 5 plus masterwork) and ADR 4/-
Breastplate: 35 AHP (AC 5 plus material bonus)
Masterwork breastplate: 40 AHP (AC 5 plus material bonus plus masterwork)
+2 mithral banded mail: 60 AHP (AC 8 plus material bonus plus masterwork) and ADR 2/-
Plate mail: 50 AHP (AC 8 plus material bonus)
Adamantine plate mail: 65 AHP (AC 8 plus material bonus plus masterwork) and ADR 3/-
+5 adamantine plate mail: 90 AHP (AC 13 plus material bonus plus masterwork) and ADR 8/-

Material bonuses:
Cloth, hide, or leather: 0
Studded leather, or chain: 5
Steel or dragonhide: 10
Mithral: 15
Adamantine: 20

Repairing armor: A suit of armor can be repaired completely using the standard rules for repairing armor (Craft DC 10 + AC bonus, cost 1/5 of full cost)
A suit of armor can also be repaired more quickly, with a Craft(armorsmithing) check that takes 8 hours, and restores AHP equal to the check result minus 15. A character can take 10 on the check but not 20. This can only be done as long as the armor has at least one hit point remaining

Armor reduced to 0 AHP no longer confers protection, but can still be repaired.
It might be a good idea to allow the repair damage chain of sorcerer/wizard spells to repair armor when adopting this rule.
Seerow
08-25-06, 06:06 PM You've been playing FFT recently, havne't you?
Bulletproof_Condom
08-25-06, 06:24 PM Well, that's kind of how they did armor in Spawn of Fashan.
LordPendragon
08-25-06, 07:17 PM Definitely FFT :tongue:

I think it could work. I like that you decided to make it both extra HP and DR. If it was just extra HP it would be too hard to wear down.

Question - If all the AHP is used up by attacks, is the armour destroyed, unusable, or just not currently doing any protecting (but still worn)?? Also, would a piece of armour that loses all its AHP stop conferring its DR to the wearer??
BeefotronX
08-29-06, 12:04 AM I think a suit of armor reduced to 0 AHP is still worn, but does no protection.

And under these rules, an armor's damage reduction applies only to damage dealt to the armor, not the wearer. Basically like hardness.
Darth Sephiroth
08-31-06, 03:57 PM You ought to include more rules for repairing and maintaining armor to keep it at full
Elrabin
09-02-06, 01:37 AM If you imagine HP as just a symbolic measurement representing how much of a beating you can take until you fall over, making armor add to your HP makes perfect sense. Think of it this way:

I have 20 HP and am naked. If I get hit for 5 dmg, that's 25% of my health, meaning 3 more hits like that and I'm dead.

Now imagine I have 20HP and am wearing full plate that gives me (just randomly making up a number) 30 more. Now I have 50 total HP, so that 5 dmg only does 10% of my total health, meaning I can take 9 more hits like that til I fall.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Of course, would you have any way to increase Defense (AC)? or would you simply be trying to replace AC so you have a less miss-heavy system and a more steady numerical system?

By that, of course, I mean that in DnD, as opposed to most computer and console RPGs, you miss miss miss miss, crit and they die. On a console RPG, that same enemy would have twice the HP and you would hit hit hit hit, then they'd die. It's more certain that the bad guy will die in a pre-established timeframe in a console RPG, but more "realistic" in the PnP style.

Lots of stuff in DnD is this way. Instead of quickly gaining lots of levels and increasing your stats by a small amount each time, you just gain 20 levels, and each one is a significant change in your character's abilities. Instead of having the ability to cast many many spells per day, you can only cast one or two, but that one or two spells can change the course of the battle.
Tenzhi
09-02-06, 02:09 AM I think for Critical hits and sneak attacks I would give armor a natural form of fortification based on armor type rather than keeping around AC or tracking natural 20s as well as normal criticals. Possibly 10% for light, 15% for Medium, and 25% for Heavy.

But generally having to completely cut through armor's HP to hurt the character, along with the armor becoming useless thereafter until fixed seems problematic to me. Seems like the damage should always be divided between the two. That or this system should be used along with the WP/VP variant, with the armor adding to Vitality Points. In which case no special rules for crits/sneak attacks beyond what already exist in that variant need be used.

Mending also becomes a more potentially useful spell.
Elrabin
09-02-06, 03:42 AM Well the way I understood it, you wouldn't have Armor hit points as seperate from the character's hit points, it's not like you are cutting through the armor to get to the character, its just when you are wearing armor, it takes more overall hits to take you down, because the armor is absorbing the brunt of this. You could simply do it as DR, but this is simpler.
LordPendragon
09-03-06, 03:35 PM That or this system should be used along with the WP/VP variant, with the armor adding to Vitality Points.Did you mean the armour should add to WP?? That would make quite a lot more sense, and avoid the problem of having to repair the armour frequently, since it only starts taking damage after your VP run out.

I like that idea a lot... it gives heavily armoured players a much bigger window of opportunity to escape battle after their VP run out. Also, it has a built-in fix to the "crits are haxxed" problem of VP/WP, because armour now gives you a buffer of extra HP against crits.

Elrabin... Actually, the way the OP explained it, the armour has its own block of HP, to which its own DR applies, and once that HP is gone, the armour is useless, and the character's HP starts to take damage (without any DR from the armour). Basically it makes it so that if you want to hurt anyone you have to completely sunder their armour first.
Elrabin
09-03-06, 04:27 PM Ah... I see.

I like my way better. :D
Tenzhi
09-04-06, 08:48 AM Did you mean the armour should add to WP??

No. WP are what get damaged when your other defenses are bypassed. Armor being one of those other defenses would naturally add to VP. And there are already mechanics in place for handling crits and sneak attacks.

I like that idea a lot... it gives heavily armoured players a much bigger window of opportunity to escape battle after their VP run out. Also, it has a built-in fix to the "crits are haxxed" problem of VP/WP, because armour now gives you a buffer of extra HP against crits.

Part of the point of the VP/WP system is to make crits more deadly. I wouldn't have the armor add to the WP whole-hog; however, in line with my previous notion of Fortification, I could see armor adding some small amount to WP based on type. The bulk should add to VP, though.

Elrabin... Actually, the way the OP explained it, the armour has its own block of HP, to which its own DR applies, and once that HP is gone, the armour is useless, and the character's HP starts to take damage (without any DR from the armour). Basically it makes it so that if you want to hurt anyone you have to completely sunder their armour first.[/QUOTE]
Thane26425
09-04-06, 03:10 PM Pardon my ignorance, but what is FFT?
Elrabin
09-04-06, 04:10 PM Final Fantasy Tactics. In that game, armor added to your Max HP, though it didn't break when you got damaged.
Thane26425
09-04-06, 04:28 PM Final Fantasy Tactics. In that game, armor added to your Max HP, though it didn't break when you got damaged.

Thanks.
trapspringer
09-04-06, 08:14 PM That's a lot like mecha in d20 future. A large mecha suit (basically power armor) give you an extra 200 hp with a hardness fo thirty, and once that is worn out you start taking damage. 'Course it also boosts your strenght and lets you carry weapons that deal 15d6 damage, but same basic idea...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BeefotronX 08-25-06, 04:56 PM	Would it be possible to treat armor as an extra block of HP? I mean, rather than as a bonus to AC, or as damage reduction, armor provides a block of HP that absorbs most attacks. The reason that it's a bit more complicated than just "treat all hits as sunder attacks on the armor", is because with item hardness and stuff, low-level characters are too invincible. This is a variant rule that treats armor as an extra block of hit points rather than directly reducing chances of being hit. AHP = (Normal AC bonus x 5) + material bonus + miscellaneous bonuses The material bonus is the hardness of the material the armor is made of, rounded to the nearest 5. Masterwork armor has an extra 5 AHP. Magic armor has armor damage reduction (applied to damage dealt to the armor, not its wearer) equal to its enhancement bonus. The damage reduction granted by using adamantine now applies to the armor, not the wearer, and it does stack with the damage reduction from an enhancement bonus. Using this rule, you don't normally consider the armor's AC bonus in attack rolls. Any attack that would have to consider the armor bonus now is buffered by AHP. Attacks that don't consider the armor bonus bypass AHP. Exceptions- In sneak attacks, you have to apply the normal AC bonus from the armor, but you get to bypass AHP. Non-rogues may attempt sneak attacks (with no bonus damage dice, but under the same circumstances as rogues) to also bypass AHP. A natural 20 on an attack roll always bypasses AHP. A critical hit that doesn't bypass AHP is divided between the armor and the wearer. One multiple of the weapon's normal damage is applied to the armor, while any remaining multiples are dealt to the wearer. Example AHP ratings Regular padded armor: 5 AHP +4 padded armor: 30 AHP (AC 5 plus masterwork) and ADR 4/- Breastplate: 35 AHP (AC 5 plus material bonus) Masterwork breastplate: 40 AHP (AC 5 plus material bonus plus masterwork) +2 mithral banded mail: 60 AHP (AC 8 plus material bonus plus masterwork) and ADR 2/- Plate mail: 50 AHP (AC 8 plus material bonus) Adamantine plate mail: 65 AHP (AC 8 plus material bonus plus masterwork) and ADR 3/- +5 adamantine plate mail: 90 AHP (AC 13 plus material bonus plus masterwork) and ADR 8/- Material bonuses: Cloth, hide, or leather: 0 Studded leather, or chain: 5 Steel or dragonhide: 10 Mithral: 15 Adamantine: 20 Repairing armor: A suit of armor can be repaired completely using the standard rules for repairing armor (Craft DC 10 + AC bonus, cost 1/5 of full cost) A suit of armor can also be repaired more quickly, with a Craft(armorsmithing) check that takes 8 hours, and restores AHP equal to the check result minus 15. A character can take 10 on the check but not 20. This can only be done as long as the armor has at least one hit point remaining Armor reduced to 0 AHP no longer confers protection, but can still be repaired. It might be a good idea to allow the repair damage chain of sorcerer/wizard spells to repair armor when adopting this rule.
Seerow 08-25-06, 06:06 PM	You've been playing FFT recently, havne't you?
Bulletproof_Condom 08-25-06, 06:24 PM	Well, that's kind of how they did armor in Spawn of Fashan.
LordPendragon 08-25-06, 07:17 PM	Definitely FFT :tongue: I think it could work. I like that you decided to make it both extra HP and DR. If it was just extra HP it would be too hard to wear down. Question - If all the AHP is used up by attacks, is the armour destroyed, unusable, or just not currently doing any protecting (but still worn)?? Also, would a piece of armour that loses all its AHP stop conferring its DR to the wearer??
BeefotronX 08-29-06, 12:04 AM	I think a suit of armor reduced to 0 AHP is still worn, but does no protection. And under these rules, an armor's damage reduction applies only to damage dealt to the armor, not the wearer. Basically like hardness.
Darth Sephiroth 08-31-06, 03:57 PM	You ought to include more rules for repairing and maintaining armor to keep it at full
Elrabin 09-02-06, 01:37 AM	If you imagine HP as just a symbolic measurement representing how much of a beating you can take until you fall over, making armor add to your HP makes perfect sense. Think of it this way: I have 20 HP and am naked. If I get hit for 5 dmg, that's 25% of my health, meaning 3 more hits like that and I'm dead. Now imagine I have 20HP and am wearing full plate that gives me (just randomly making up a number) 30 more. Now I have 50 total HP, so that 5 dmg only does 10% of my total health, meaning I can take 9 more hits like that til I fall. Sounds reasonable to me. Of course, would you have any way to increase Defense (AC)? or would you simply be trying to replace AC so you have a less miss-heavy system and a more steady numerical system? By that, of course, I mean that in DnD, as opposed to most computer and console RPGs, you miss miss miss miss, crit and they die. On a console RPG, that same enemy would have twice the HP and you would hit hit hit hit, then they'd die. It's more certain that the bad guy will die in a pre-established timeframe in a console RPG, but more "realistic" in the PnP style. Lots of stuff in DnD is this way. Instead of quickly gaining lots of levels and increasing your stats by a small amount each time, you just gain 20 levels, and each one is a significant change in your character's abilities. Instead of having the ability to cast many many spells per day, you can only cast one or two, but that one or two spells can change the course of the battle.
Tenzhi 09-02-06, 02:09 AM	I think for Critical hits and sneak attacks I would give armor a natural form of fortification based on armor type rather than keeping around AC or tracking natural 20s as well as normal criticals. Possibly 10% for light, 15% for Medium, and 25% for Heavy. But generally having to completely cut through armor's HP to hurt the character, along with the armor becoming useless thereafter until fixed seems problematic to me. Seems like the damage should always be divided between the two. That or this system should be used along with the WP/VP variant, with the armor adding to Vitality Points. In which case no special rules for crits/sneak attacks beyond what already exist in that variant need be used. Mending also becomes a more potentially useful spell.
Elrabin 09-02-06, 03:42 AM	Well the way I understood it, you wouldn't have Armor hit points as seperate from the character's hit points, it's not like you are cutting through the armor to get to the character, its just when you are wearing armor, it takes more overall hits to take you down, because the armor is absorbing the brunt of this. You could simply do it as DR, but this is simpler.
LordPendragon 09-03-06, 03:35 PM	That or this system should be used along with the WP/VP variant, with the armor adding to Vitality Points.Did you mean the armour should add to WP?? That would make quite a lot more sense, and avoid the problem of having to repair the armour frequently, since it only starts taking damage after your VP run out. I like that idea a lot... it gives heavily armoured players a much bigger window of opportunity to escape battle after their VP run out. Also, it has a built-in fix to the "crits are haxxed" problem of VP/WP, because armour now gives you a buffer of extra HP against crits. Elrabin... Actually, the way the OP explained it, the armour has its own block of HP, to which its own DR applies, and once that HP is gone, the armour is useless, and the character's HP starts to take damage (without any DR from the armour). Basically it makes it so that if you want to hurt anyone you have to completely sunder their armour first.
Elrabin 09-03-06, 04:27 PM	Ah... I see. I like my way better. :D
Tenzhi 09-04-06, 08:48 AM	Did you mean the armour should add to WP?? No. WP are what get damaged when your other defenses are bypassed. Armor being one of those other defenses would naturally add to VP. And there are already mechanics in place for handling crits and sneak attacks. I like that idea a lot... it gives heavily armoured players a much bigger window of opportunity to escape battle after their VP run out. Also, it has a built-in fix to the "crits are haxxed" problem of VP/WP, because armour now gives you a buffer of extra HP against crits. Part of the point of the VP/WP system is to make crits more deadly. I wouldn't have the armor add to the WP whole-hog; however, in line with my previous notion of Fortification, I could see armor adding some small amount to WP based on type. The bulk should add to VP, though. Elrabin... Actually, the way the OP explained it, the armour has its own block of HP, to which its own DR applies, and once that HP is gone, the armour is useless, and the character's HP starts to take damage (without any DR from the armour). Basically it makes it so that if you want to hurt anyone you have to completely sunder their armour first.[/QUOTE]
Thane26425 09-04-06, 03:10 PM	Pardon my ignorance, but what is FFT?
Elrabin 09-04-06, 04:10 PM	Final Fantasy Tactics. In that game, armor added to your Max HP, though it didn't break when you got damaged.
Thane26425 09-04-06, 04:28 PM	Final Fantasy Tactics. In that game, armor added to your Max HP, though it didn't break when you got damaged. Thanks.
trapspringer 09-04-06, 08:14 PM	That's a lot like mecha in d20 future. A large mecha suit (basically power armor) give you an extra 200 hp with a hardness fo thirty, and once that is worn out you start taking damage. 'Course it also boosts your strenght and lets you carry weapons that deal 15d6 damage, but same basic idea...