Armor granting extra Hp? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor granting extra Hp? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tam
05-23-04, 05:07 PM Here is a draft idea for balancing armors:

Here are optional rules to increase the effectiveness of heavy armor:

1st: renaming things
Hit point becomes defense points. So high level characters have
better defense, not more resistance.

2nd: armors grant additional defense points:
For every 2 points of armor bonus (no enhancement involved), you get
a bonus of 1 Con point for purpose of computing extra Defense point. Those
extra defense point go first, and they are recovered at a rate of 1/round
(or all when battle ends).

3rd rebalance classes:
After 1st level:
Wizard, sorcerers, rogues, clerics, druid, Bard : d4 dp/lvl
Fighters, paladins, rangers : d6 dp/lvl
Monks, Barbarians : d8 dp/lvl
Additionally:
Fighters, paladins, Barbarians get high Ref save, however:
When wearing medium or heavy armors, Ref save is always low.
When wearing heavy armor, you lose uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge,
evasion, improved evasion.

------
4th:

Alternate Wound system:
The game of combat is to bypass the opponent defense.
- The obvious way, is to drop the opponent defense to -10, the regular rules
is applied in this case.
- Whenever you score a 1 with your weapon base dice, you also inflict
wound:
d2 -> 1d3-2 malus (0 min) to one physical ability score
d3 -> 1d2-1 malus to one physical ability score
d4 -> +1 malus to one physical ability score
d6 -> +1d2 malus to one physical ability score
d8 -> +1d3 malus to one physical ability score
d10 -> +1d4 malus to one physical ability score
d12 -> +1d6 malus to one physical ability score
A weapon which base damage is 2d6 would inflict a 1d2 malus wound whenever one
of the die would be 1 or 2d2 malus wound when both would be 1.
Whenever you score a critical hit, each additional throw of the dice has a chance
to get another wound.
The target chose which ability score is involved.
Each wound is recorded individually. The malus are cumulated.
A cure spell removes a wound, otherwise, each wound heals at a rate of 1 malus/day.
Wound reduction: once a round, a heavy armor can decrease a wound malus by one
point. If the malus drop to 0, the armor avoided the wound altogether.

Extra feats:
Improved parry : Once a round, you can decrease a wound malus by one point. You
can increase your armor effectiveness that way, or apply this to another wound.
Aimed blow : Whenever you score a wound, you can chose which attribute is hit.

How would you balance the whole thing ?
flyingmoose
05-23-04, 05:54 PM Firstly, you can call things whatever you want. It has no effect on what they actually mean in game (except maybe conceptually for you).
Secondly, This seems awkward and far more complicated than you need.

Why don't you just use Armor as DR? I don't understand what percieved error you seek to correct with this.
squishycube
05-24-04, 07:54 AM phew, I read it twice and I still don't really understand your wound point system. As flyingmoose said, way to complicated. Remember you have to apply all these rules every time someone is hit, it will slow down combat terribly.
SykeXero
05-24-04, 12:29 PM It isn't as over-complicated as the two previous posts stated but, they are right about the names. As for the post in general: I get the feeling that It was hammered out in about 30 seconds. Way too fast.

Defence should stay HP. It is a set standard that has been used for many years and is easily recognizable for almost every gamer out there.

I actualy kinda like number 2. It gives the sense to me that it softens the blows a bit instead of deflecting them. The problem is what would you do if the character was hurt and then took off his armor? Of course Armor as DR is a lot easier than this so I think I'll stick with that.

Also: What is this "Malus" that you speak of?

In conclusion: I would try your system if you cleaned it up a bit and more thuroghly explained the different mechanics.
Tam
05-24-04, 03:11 PM On names:
I try to sell the whole hit point thing to my players. They have difficult time to
admit that a 10th level barbarian might have 20 arrows stuck in her before being
actually wounded. With "Defense point", it is easier to explain that most arrows
didn't actually hit the mark. Depending on the vocabulary, some rules might
appear good or strange. For instance, how comes that a potion of cure minor
wounds grants you three days of rest and healing when you are apprentice and the
exact same potion only grants you 6 hour rest when you are high level? Call it
a potion of minor ward, and it seems better: it grants you about the same defense
against the same threat.
Of course, this is just a matter of taste, experienced players have better time
understanding what really is hiding behind "Hit point".

On armors:
Some feel that heavy armors offer too few advantages to be preferred over medium
armors. This is especially true at high level where Dex boosting item become
common, the drawbackS of wearing heavy armor almost eliminate the advantage.
Since heavy armors is one of the things that should contribute to the strength of
some classes (fighter, paladin), I was figuring they needed a boost.
The proposed changes are more in line with Damage conversion than with Armor as DR.
The problem with armor as DR is that Heavy armors offer even less advantages over
medium armors than in the regular rule. Take a character with a 16 Dex for
instance:
With breastplate : AC 16 (+3+3), DR 2/-
With fullplate : AC 15 (+4+1), DR 4/-
In the DR variant, the barbarian ends up with better DR, better AC, better Hp and
fewer armor malus than the fighter.

Doning and removing armor:
The idea is that extra hp granted by armor would act has
temporary Hp gained at the beginning of each fight (so this is
very strong).
Given the time necessary to remove or done(?) armor, I was figuring this wasn't a problem during fight.

On the wound system:
I will try to better rephrase, but my english is not quite good.
Whenever you inflict damage and you score a 1 with your damage dice, you also
inflict a wound.
Wounds give malus to ability scores.
For instance: Grismar (Fighter, str 15) hits Olaf with his masterwork longsword.
The damage are 1d8+2.
If Grismar scores a 1 on his d8, he will do 3 points of damage and in addition,
he will inflict a wound. Since the dice is a d8, the wound seriousness will be of 1d3
(according to the table). Grismar throw the dice, and score 3, then Olaf decides
that this is a wound to the leg, hampering movement (Dex malus). Olaf records on his
sheet that he has a wound giving him -3 to Dex score.
If Grismar had used a Greatsword, his damage would have been 2d6+3. Whenever
one of those d6 score a 1, Grismar would also inflict a wound. For a d6, the wound
seriousness would be 1d2. If both d6 scored 1, Grismar would inflict 5 dmg and a
wound of seriousness 2d2.
Now for the critical hit: lets suppose Grismar critically hit with his longsword.
The damage are double for 2d8+4. Whenever one of those d8 score 1, Grismar would
also inflict a wound. With one 1, the wound gravity would be 1d3. With both 1, the
damage would be 6 and the wound gravity 2d3.
One important point is that only weapon dices may be used to inflict wounds. So for
a flaming longsword (damage 1d8+1+1d6 fire), there will be a wound only when the d8
scores a 1; and the wound seriousness would still be 1d3.

I hope it is a bit clearer.
Pagan priest
05-24-04, 11:38 PM Originally posted by Tam
On names:
I try to sell the whole hit point thing to my players. They have difficult time to admit that a 10th level barbarian might have 20 arrows stuck in her before being actually wounded. With "Defense point", it is easier to explain that most arrows
didn't actually hit the mark.

Ah ha! The root of the problem. Just because the barbarian has taken damage from 20 arows, does not mean that a single one is still stuck in her. Any one, now matter how good a warrior, will be dead or dying with 20 arrows stuck in their body. In game terms, those 20 arrows nicked and gouged her as they passed by. Maybe one or two of them are stuck in her armor in such a way as to scrap her skin every time she moves.

This is what hit points have always represented, from the very beginning of D&D.
flyingmoose
05-28-04, 05:00 AM Combat is really abstract. You don't have to have physically cut someone with a longsword dealt 1d8 damage. After some other threads, I'm starting to think missing with a bow means you never got the shot off.
Epic Scotsman
06-01-04, 08:20 PM Can't high level characters just put on their +5 Invulnerable full plate and wade into battle. I think armor works just fine as it is now (assuming your DM let's you upgrade your equipment every now and then).

:fight!:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tam 05-23-04, 05:07 PM	Here is a draft idea for balancing armors: Here are optional rules to increase the effectiveness of heavy armor: 1st: renaming things Hit point becomes defense points. So high level characters have better defense, not more resistance. 2nd: armors grant additional defense points: For every 2 points of armor bonus (no enhancement involved), you get a bonus of 1 Con point for purpose of computing extra Defense point. Those extra defense point go first, and they are recovered at a rate of 1/round (or all when battle ends). 3rd rebalance classes: After 1st level: Wizard, sorcerers, rogues, clerics, druid, Bard : d4 dp/lvl Fighters, paladins, rangers : d6 dp/lvl Monks, Barbarians : d8 dp/lvl Additionally: Fighters, paladins, Barbarians get high Ref save, however: When wearing medium or heavy armors, Ref save is always low. When wearing heavy armor, you lose uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, evasion, improved evasion. ------ 4th: Alternate Wound system: The game of combat is to bypass the opponent defense. - The obvious way, is to drop the opponent defense to -10, the regular rules is applied in this case. - Whenever you score a 1 with your weapon base dice, you also inflict wound: d2 -> 1d3-2 malus (0 min) to one physical ability score d3 -> 1d2-1 malus to one physical ability score d4 -> +1 malus to one physical ability score d6 -> +1d2 malus to one physical ability score d8 -> +1d3 malus to one physical ability score d10 -> +1d4 malus to one physical ability score d12 -> +1d6 malus to one physical ability score A weapon which base damage is 2d6 would inflict a 1d2 malus wound whenever one of the die would be 1 or 2d2 malus wound when both would be 1. Whenever you score a critical hit, each additional throw of the dice has a chance to get another wound. The target chose which ability score is involved. Each wound is recorded individually. The malus are cumulated. A cure spell removes a wound, otherwise, each wound heals at a rate of 1 malus/day. Wound reduction: once a round, a heavy armor can decrease a wound malus by one point. If the malus drop to 0, the armor avoided the wound altogether. Extra feats: Improved parry : Once a round, you can decrease a wound malus by one point. You can increase your armor effectiveness that way, or apply this to another wound. Aimed blow : Whenever you score a wound, you can chose which attribute is hit. How would you balance the whole thing ?
flyingmoose 05-23-04, 05:54 PM	Firstly, you can call things whatever you want. It has no effect on what they actually mean in game (except maybe conceptually for you). Secondly, This seems awkward and far more complicated than you need. Why don't you just use Armor as DR? I don't understand what percieved error you seek to correct with this.
squishycube 05-24-04, 07:54 AM	phew, I read it twice and I still don't really understand your wound point system. As flyingmoose said, way to complicated. Remember you have to apply all these rules every time someone is hit, it will slow down combat terribly.
SykeXero 05-24-04, 12:29 PM	It isn't as over-complicated as the two previous posts stated but, they are right about the names. As for the post in general: I get the feeling that It was hammered out in about 30 seconds. Way too fast. Defence should stay HP. It is a set standard that has been used for many years and is easily recognizable for almost every gamer out there. I actualy kinda like number 2. It gives the sense to me that it softens the blows a bit instead of deflecting them. The problem is what would you do if the character was hurt and then took off his armor? Of course Armor as DR is a lot easier than this so I think I'll stick with that. Also: What is this "Malus" that you speak of? In conclusion: I would try your system if you cleaned it up a bit and more thuroghly explained the different mechanics.
Tam 05-24-04, 03:11 PM	On names: I try to sell the whole hit point thing to my players. They have difficult time to admit that a 10th level barbarian might have 20 arrows stuck in her before being actually wounded. With "Defense point", it is easier to explain that most arrows didn't actually hit the mark. Depending on the vocabulary, some rules might appear good or strange. For instance, how comes that a potion of cure minor wounds grants you three days of rest and healing when you are apprentice and the exact same potion only grants you 6 hour rest when you are high level? Call it a potion of minor ward, and it seems better: it grants you about the same defense against the same threat. Of course, this is just a matter of taste, experienced players have better time understanding what really is hiding behind "Hit point". On armors: Some feel that heavy armors offer too few advantages to be preferred over medium armors. This is especially true at high level where Dex boosting item become common, the drawbackS of wearing heavy armor almost eliminate the advantage. Since heavy armors is one of the things that should contribute to the strength of some classes (fighter, paladin), I was figuring they needed a boost. The proposed changes are more in line with Damage conversion than with Armor as DR. The problem with armor as DR is that Heavy armors offer even less advantages over medium armors than in the regular rule. Take a character with a 16 Dex for instance: With breastplate : AC 16 (+3+3), DR 2/- With fullplate : AC 15 (+4+1), DR 4/- In the DR variant, the barbarian ends up with better DR, better AC, better Hp and fewer armor malus than the fighter. Doning and removing armor: The idea is that extra hp granted by armor would act has temporary Hp gained at the beginning of each fight (so this is very strong). Given the time necessary to remove or done(?) armor, I was figuring this wasn't a problem during fight. On the wound system: I will try to better rephrase, but my english is not quite good. Whenever you inflict damage and you score a 1 with your damage dice, you also inflict a wound. Wounds give malus to ability scores. For instance: Grismar (Fighter, str 15) hits Olaf with his masterwork longsword. The damage are 1d8+2. If Grismar scores a 1 on his d8, he will do 3 points of damage and in addition, he will inflict a wound. Since the dice is a d8, the wound seriousness will be of 1d3 (according to the table). Grismar throw the dice, and score 3, then Olaf decides that this is a wound to the leg, hampering movement (Dex malus). Olaf records on his sheet that he has a wound giving him -3 to Dex score. If Grismar had used a Greatsword, his damage would have been 2d6+3. Whenever one of those d6 score a 1, Grismar would also inflict a wound. For a d6, the wound seriousness would be 1d2. If both d6 scored 1, Grismar would inflict 5 dmg and a wound of seriousness 2d2. Now for the critical hit: lets suppose Grismar critically hit with his longsword. The damage are double for 2d8+4. Whenever one of those d8 score 1, Grismar would also inflict a wound. With one 1, the wound gravity would be 1d3. With both 1, the damage would be 6 and the wound gravity 2d3. One important point is that only weapon dices may be used to inflict wounds. So for a flaming longsword (damage 1d8+1+1d6 fire), there will be a wound only when the d8 scores a 1; and the wound seriousness would still be 1d3. I hope it is a bit clearer.
Pagan priest 05-24-04, 11:38 PM	Originally posted by Tam On names: I try to sell the whole hit point thing to my players. They have difficult time to admit that a 10th level barbarian might have 20 arrows stuck in her before being actually wounded. With "Defense point", it is easier to explain that most arrows didn't actually hit the mark. Ah ha! The root of the problem. Just because the barbarian has taken damage from 20 arows, does not mean that a single one is still stuck in her. Any one, now matter how good a warrior, will be dead or dying with 20 arrows stuck in their body. In game terms, those 20 arrows nicked and gouged her as they passed by. Maybe one or two of them are stuck in her armor in such a way as to scrap her skin every time she moves. This is what hit points have always represented, from the very beginning of D&D.
flyingmoose 05-28-04, 05:00 AM	Combat is really abstract. You don't have to have physically cut someone with a longsword dealt 1d8 damage. After some other threads, I'm starting to think missing with a bow means you never got the shot off.
Epic Scotsman 06-01-04, 08:20 PM	Can't high level characters just put on their +5 Invulnerable full plate and wade into battle. I think armor works just fine as it is now (assuming your DM let's you upgrade your equipment every now and then). :fight!: