Arson, Son of Nuke [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arson, Son of Nuke [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shell
06-21-04, 10:09 AM Here's What I built

His Name is Arson son of Nuke (Nuke being a previous non gestult character of mine) he's a half fire elemental weird but its basically the same as 1/2 elemental from Manual of the Planes

War Mage & from Marshall are from Miniatues,
Spell Fire Channeller and War Wizard are from Magic of Faerun
Rogue class is used with ultunate rules for taking a feat instead of sneak attack at apropriate levels. He basically works out to have by 20th lvl 18 BAB, Fort Base 20, Will base 22 and Ref Base 11, a shite load of feats and some damned cool powers =)

class 1 class 2
1 1/2 Elemental 1/2 Elemental
2 War Mage Rogue
3 War Mage Marshall
4 War Mage Marshall
5 War Mage Marshall
6 War Mage Marshall
7 War Mage Spell Fire Channeler
8 Mind Bender Marshall
9 War Mage Spell Fire Channeler
10 War Mage Spell Fire Channeler
11 War Mage Spell Fire Channeler
12 War Mage Spell Fire Channeler
13 War Mage Spell Fire Channeler
14 War Wizard Rogue
15 War Wizard Rogue
16 War Wizard Rogue
17 War Wizard Rogue
18 War Wizard Fighter
19 War Mage Spell Fire Channeler
20 War Mage Spell Fire Channeler

What Do you think?
Shell
06-21-04, 10:16 AM what I ment to put also is that is this right? My DM thinks I am exploiting stuff, and I probably am

Say with my example of Arson up there, he was just a wizard Sorc, and took a rogue level at level one along with his Wizard lvl

so he looks like this

1: Wizard Rogue
2: Wizard Sorc
3: Wizard Sorc
4: Wizard Sorc

Does his BAB work out like
BAB
1: Wizard Rogue +0
2: Wizard Sorc +1 (+1 from Wiz 2)
3: Wizard Sorc +2 (+1 from Sorc 2)
4: Wizard Sorc +3 (+1 from Wiz 4)

And so on and so forth up till 20th lvl

So I get a Full BAB with a Wizard Sorc and Uber Caster levels in Arcane Spell...

Is this right? because that is what I have used to make Arsons BAB and Saves... he gets saves equal to his level for the most part of his progression...

Its Completly feral!

Is this right??

-Shell
Ertai Planeswalker
06-22-04, 05:50 AM The Geestalt rules state that you may only take one prc level at a time, and not two prc levels at once. So you're whole build is illegal.

As for the BAB, just add up the bab form each 'side' of your progression and use the highest.

So:

Wiz4 = +2 BaB
Rog1/Sor3 = +1 BaB

So you use the BaB from your Wiz4 side, meaning your BaB is +2.
Degobah
06-22-04, 06:21 AM Hi Ertai,
I'm Shell's DM (among other things).
War mage is a core class, not a PrC (its in the miniatures handbook). So the build is legal in that regard.

The big problem is the BAB/save progression rules for gestalt. I'm not sure about your solution of adding up BAB/saves from different "sides" of the progression since what side a class is on is arbitrary- in the Nuke example you could as easily move a War Mage level into column 2 rather than column 1 to maximise the bonuses, and it just seems to make the whole gestalt thing more complicated (though it could work, I suppose it at least stops the wizard/sorcerors with full BAB )
Ertai Planeswalker
06-22-04, 07:18 AM Originally posted by Degobah
Hi Ertai,
I'm Shell's DM (among other things).
War mage is a core class, not a PrC (its in the miniatures handbook). So the build is legal in that regard.

The big problem is the BAB/save progression rules for gestalt. I'm not sure about your solution of adding up BAB/saves from different "sides" of the progression since what side a class is on is arbitrary- in the Nuke example you could as easily move a War Mage level into column 2 rather than column 1 to maximise the bonuses, and it just seems to make the whole gestalt thing more complicated (though it could work, I suppose it at least stops the wizard/sorcerors with full BAB )

IMO, you're better of using the fractional base attack bonus rule and taking the better number at each level. so in his case, level one adds +0.75 BaB and the other 3 levels +0.5, for a total of +2.25 BaB, or +2 BaB. (Remember that BaB is always rounded down, even 2.75 is still +2 BaB) Determine each level which class taken at that level has the best BaB and use that one.

FYI: A Wiz20/Sor20 Gestalt still has only +10 BaB. You use the better number, you don't add them together.

A Ftr20/Wiz20 for example, would have +20 BaB.
Shell
06-22-04, 08:15 AM Aww, its not illegal in that sense,
I made very sure I didnt have any more than 1 PRC per level,
Even if i have a few PRC's

Like Deg said a War Mage is a class, Its a different kind of sorcerer wizard thing that runs around in armor and blows stuff up...

Give me some credit, I'm not that stupid =)

I still dont see why you cant have full BAB though, like that

I mean how does it work? if not like that?
Ertai Planeswalker
06-23-04, 07:01 AM Originally posted by Shell
Aww, its not illegal in that sense,
I made very sure I didnt have any more than 1 PRC per level,
Even if i have a few PRC's

Like Deg said a War Mage is a class, Its a different kind of sorcerer wizard thing that runs around in armor and blows stuff up...

Give me some credit, I'm not that stupid =)

I still dont see why you cant have full BAB though, like that

I mean how does it work? if not like that?

It works just like i said. You use the best BaB of both, you don't add them together.
DM Zoc
06-24-04, 02:53 AM Originally posted by Degobah

The big problem is the BAB/save progression rules for gestalt. I'm not sure about your solution of adding up BAB/saves from different "sides" of the progression since what side a class is on is arbitrary- in the Nuke example you could as easily move a War Mage level into column 2 rather than column 1 to maximise the bonuses, and it just seems to make the whole gestalt thing more complicated (though it could work, I suppose it at least stops the wizard/sorcerors with full BAB )
The "sides" thing is a very good way of looking at it. Basically, you have the highest BAB that you could possibly have by taking any progression of classes. If you divide your progression into two columns, then you start at the top and go to the bottom taking any path you want until you get to the bottom; repeat for all possible paths, and then compare. Repeat to determine saves. For example, let's use the following short progression: [list=1]
Fighter/Wizard
Fighter/Wizard
Rogue/Wizard
Monk/Sorcerer
[/list=1]
Denoting the first side as column X and the second as column O, the possible paths (and their final BAB/Fort/Ref/Will) are:

XXXX (Fighter2/Rogue1/Monk1 = 2/5/4/2)
XXXO (Fighter2/Rogue1/Sorc1 = 2/3/2/2)
XXOX (Fighter2/Wiz1/Monk1= 2/5/2/4)
XOXX (Fighter1/Wiz1/Rogue1/Monk1= 1/4/4/4)
OXXX (Fighter1/Wiz1/Rogue1/Monk1= 1/4/4/4)
XXOO (Fighter2/Wiz1/Sorc1=2/3/0/4)
XOXO (Fighter1/Wiz1/Rogue1/Sorc1= 2/2/2/4)
XOOX (Fighter1/Wiz2/Monk1=2/4/2/5)
OXXO (Fighter1/Wiz1/Rogue1/Sorc1=1/2/2/4)
OXOX (Fighter1/Wiz2/Monk1=1/4/2/5)
OOXX (Wiz2/Rogue1/Monk1=1/2/4/5)
XOOO (Fighter1/Wiz2/Sorc1=1/2/0/5)
OXOO (Fighter1/Wiz2/Sorc1=1/2/0/5)
OOXO (Wiz2/Rogue1/Sorc1= 1/0/2/5)
OOOX (Wiz3/Monk1=1/3/3/5)
OOOO (Wiz3/Sorc1=1/0/0/5).

For now, let's ignore any math errors that I've made. I'm fairly certain that this 4th level character would have a BAB of +2 and Fort/Ref/Will saves of 5/4/5.
Ertai Planeswalker
06-24-04, 06:30 AM Originally posted by DM Zoc
[list=1]
Fighter/Wizard
Fighter/Wizard
Rogue/Wizard
Monk/Sorcerer
[/list=1]
For now, let's ignore any math errors that I've made. I'm fairly certain that this 4th level character would have a BAB of +2 and Fort/Ref/Will saves of 5/4/5.

Bab is correct. Saves are not.

Level 1: Fort +2 Ref+0 Will+2.
Level 2: Fort +3 Ref+0 Will+3.
Level 3: Fort +4 Ref+2 Will+3.
Level 4: Fort +6 Ref+4 WIll+5.

See, each level, each save is upped by the level that adds the most.

At level 1, the fighter level adds +2 to the fort save, and the wizard adds +2 to the will save. No class adds to the reflex save. At level 2, the fighter level increases the fort save by +1, and the wizard level increases the will save by +1. Again, no class adds to the reflex save. Then at level 3, the wizard level adds +1 to the fortitude save, and +1 to the reflex save. However, the rogue level adds +2 to the reflex save, which means that for the reflex save we use the rogue level and for the fortitude we use the wizard level. (The rogue adds none) At 4th level, the monk adds +2 to the fortitude and reflex saves, and both the monk and sorcerer add +2 to the will save, so everything is upped by +2.
DM Zoc
06-24-04, 08:10 AM Are you sure? My argument was that the wizard levels didn't add to Fort saves because only one of the wizard levels "counts" toward Fort saves (the other two levels being superceded by fighter Fort saves).
Ertai Planeswalker
06-25-04, 04:42 AM That's how i understoond the whole thing. For each save, apply the best level at any level.
DM Zoc
06-25-04, 06:34 AM It's actually pretty vague about the whole thing. I was going over the particular passages, and it just mentioned that you take the better of the saves (i.e. take the Good save instead of the Bad save). Imagine a pure fighter/wizard. Fighters have Good Fort saves, and Wizards have Bad Fort saves. This means that you take the Fighter Fort save at all levels, meaning that you don't add the +1 at level 3 (when Wizards would get a bonus, but Fighters would not). Otherwise, the previous argument of +1 BAB at every level for a Wizard/Sorcerer would work.

The easiest way to do this, as far as I can tell, is to use the fractional saves optional rule. Since Fighter always adds the same fraction of a save, there shouldn't be any confusion. I wish I had written it down earlier (I don't have my books where I live), but if a good save is 1/2 and a bad save is 1/3, then you just add 1/2 to your save if any of your classes has that save as good, and 1/3 otherwise. Likewise, this solves the BAB issue because Wizard and Sorcerer both add 1/2 per level (and you take the higher of the two).
Degobah
06-25-04, 11:02 PM I think I will use the fractional save bonuses. I may end up having to calculate the saves/BAB for most of my players though. Oh well.
Thanks guys.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shell 06-21-04, 10:09 AM	Here's What I built His Name is Arson son of Nuke (Nuke being a previous non gestult character of mine) he's a half fire elemental weird but its basically the same as 1/2 elemental from Manual of the Planes War Mage & from Marshall are from Miniatues, Spell Fire Channeller and War Wizard are from Magic of Faerun Rogue class is used with ultunate rules for taking a feat instead of sneak attack at apropriate levels. He basically works out to have by 20th lvl 18 BAB, Fort Base 20, Will base 22 and Ref Base 11, a shite load of feats and some damned cool powers =) class 1 class 2 1 1/2 Elemental 1/2 Elemental 2 War Mage Rogue 3 War Mage Marshall 4 War Mage Marshall 5 War Mage Marshall 6 War Mage Marshall 7 War Mage Spell Fire Channeler 8 Mind Bender Marshall 9 War Mage Spell Fire Channeler 10 War Mage Spell Fire Channeler 11 War Mage Spell Fire Channeler 12 War Mage Spell Fire Channeler 13 War Mage Spell Fire Channeler 14 War Wizard Rogue 15 War Wizard Rogue 16 War Wizard Rogue 17 War Wizard Rogue 18 War Wizard Fighter 19 War Mage Spell Fire Channeler 20 War Mage Spell Fire Channeler What Do you think?
Shell 06-21-04, 10:16 AM	what I ment to put also is that is this right? My DM thinks I am exploiting stuff, and I probably am Say with my example of Arson up there, he was just a wizard Sorc, and took a rogue level at level one along with his Wizard lvl so he looks like this 1: Wizard Rogue 2: Wizard Sorc 3: Wizard Sorc 4: Wizard Sorc Does his BAB work out like BAB 1: Wizard Rogue +0 2: Wizard Sorc +1 (+1 from Wiz 2) 3: Wizard Sorc +2 (+1 from Sorc 2) 4: Wizard Sorc +3 (+1 from Wiz 4) And so on and so forth up till 20th lvl So I get a Full BAB with a Wizard Sorc and Uber Caster levels in Arcane Spell... Is this right? because that is what I have used to make Arsons BAB and Saves... he gets saves equal to his level for the most part of his progression... Its Completly feral! Is this right?? -Shell
Ertai Planeswalker 06-22-04, 05:50 AM	The Geestalt rules state that you may only take one prc level at a time, and not two prc levels at once. So you're whole build is illegal. As for the BAB, just add up the bab form each 'side' of your progression and use the highest. So: Wiz4 = +2 BaB Rog1/Sor3 = +1 BaB So you use the BaB from your Wiz4 side, meaning your BaB is +2.
Degobah 06-22-04, 06:21 AM	Hi Ertai, I'm Shell's DM (among other things). War mage is a core class, not a PrC (its in the miniatures handbook). So the build is legal in that regard. The big problem is the BAB/save progression rules for gestalt. I'm not sure about your solution of adding up BAB/saves from different "sides" of the progression since what side a class is on is arbitrary- in the Nuke example you could as easily move a War Mage level into column 2 rather than column 1 to maximise the bonuses, and it just seems to make the whole gestalt thing more complicated (though it could work, I suppose it at least stops the wizard/sorcerors with full BAB )
Ertai Planeswalker 06-22-04, 07:18 AM	Originally posted by Degobah Hi Ertai, I'm Shell's DM (among other things). War mage is a core class, not a PrC (its in the miniatures handbook). So the build is legal in that regard. The big problem is the BAB/save progression rules for gestalt. I'm not sure about your solution of adding up BAB/saves from different "sides" of the progression since what side a class is on is arbitrary- in the Nuke example you could as easily move a War Mage level into column 2 rather than column 1 to maximise the bonuses, and it just seems to make the whole gestalt thing more complicated (though it could work, I suppose it at least stops the wizard/sorcerors with full BAB ) IMO, you're better of using the fractional base attack bonus rule and taking the better number at each level. so in his case, level one adds +0.75 BaB and the other 3 levels +0.5, for a total of +2.25 BaB, or +2 BaB. (Remember that BaB is always rounded down, even 2.75 is still +2 BaB) Determine each level which class taken at that level has the best BaB and use that one. FYI: A Wiz20/Sor20 Gestalt still has only +10 BaB. You use the better number, you don't add them together. A Ftr20/Wiz20 for example, would have +20 BaB.
Shell 06-22-04, 08:15 AM	Aww, its not illegal in that sense, I made very sure I didnt have any more than 1 PRC per level, Even if i have a few PRC's Like Deg said a War Mage is a class, Its a different kind of sorcerer wizard thing that runs around in armor and blows stuff up... Give me some credit, I'm not that stupid =) I still dont see why you cant have full BAB though, like that I mean how does it work? if not like that?
Ertai Planeswalker 06-23-04, 07:01 AM	Originally posted by Shell Aww, its not illegal in that sense, I made very sure I didnt have any more than 1 PRC per level, Even if i have a few PRC's Like Deg said a War Mage is a class, Its a different kind of sorcerer wizard thing that runs around in armor and blows stuff up... Give me some credit, I'm not that stupid =) I still dont see why you cant have full BAB though, like that I mean how does it work? if not like that? It works just like i said. You use the best BaB of both, you don't add them together.
DM Zoc 06-24-04, 02:53 AM	Originally posted by Degobah The big problem is the BAB/save progression rules for gestalt. I'm not sure about your solution of adding up BAB/saves from different "sides" of the progression since what side a class is on is arbitrary- in the Nuke example you could as easily move a War Mage level into column 2 rather than column 1 to maximise the bonuses, and it just seems to make the whole gestalt thing more complicated (though it could work, I suppose it at least stops the wizard/sorcerors with full BAB ) The "sides" thing is a very good way of looking at it. Basically, you have the highest BAB that you could possibly have by taking any progression of classes. If you divide your progression into two columns, then you start at the top and go to the bottom taking any path you want until you get to the bottom; repeat for all possible paths, and then compare. Repeat to determine saves. For example, let's use the following short progression: [list=1] Fighter/Wizard Fighter/Wizard Rogue/Wizard Monk/Sorcerer [/list=1] Denoting the first side as column X and the second as column O, the possible paths (and their final BAB/Fort/Ref/Will) are: XXXX (Fighter2/Rogue1/Monk1 = 2/5/4/2) XXXO (Fighter2/Rogue1/Sorc1 = 2/3/2/2) XXOX (Fighter2/Wiz1/Monk1= 2/5/2/4) XOXX (Fighter1/Wiz1/Rogue1/Monk1= 1/4/4/4) OXXX (Fighter1/Wiz1/Rogue1/Monk1= 1/4/4/4) XXOO (Fighter2/Wiz1/Sorc1=2/3/0/4) XOXO (Fighter1/Wiz1/Rogue1/Sorc1= 2/2/2/4) XOOX (Fighter1/Wiz2/Monk1=2/4/2/5) OXXO (Fighter1/Wiz1/Rogue1/Sorc1=1/2/2/4) OXOX (Fighter1/Wiz2/Monk1=1/4/2/5) OOXX (Wiz2/Rogue1/Monk1=1/2/4/5) XOOO (Fighter1/Wiz2/Sorc1=1/2/0/5) OXOO (Fighter1/Wiz2/Sorc1=1/2/0/5) OOXO (Wiz2/Rogue1/Sorc1= 1/0/2/5) OOOX (Wiz3/Monk1=1/3/3/5) OOOO (Wiz3/Sorc1=1/0/0/5). For now, let's ignore any math errors that I've made. I'm fairly certain that this 4th level character would have a BAB of +2 and Fort/Ref/Will saves of 5/4/5.
Ertai Planeswalker 06-24-04, 06:30 AM	Originally posted by DM Zoc [list=1] Fighter/Wizard Fighter/Wizard Rogue/Wizard Monk/Sorcerer [/list=1] For now, let's ignore any math errors that I've made. I'm fairly certain that this 4th level character would have a BAB of +2 and Fort/Ref/Will saves of 5/4/5. Bab is correct. Saves are not. Level 1: Fort +2 Ref+0 Will+2. Level 2: Fort +3 Ref+0 Will+3. Level 3: Fort +4 Ref+2 Will+3. Level 4: Fort +6 Ref+4 WIll+5. See, each level, each save is upped by the level that adds the most. At level 1, the fighter level adds +2 to the fort save, and the wizard adds +2 to the will save. No class adds to the reflex save. At level 2, the fighter level increases the fort save by +1, and the wizard level increases the will save by +1. Again, no class adds to the reflex save. Then at level 3, the wizard level adds +1 to the fortitude save, and +1 to the reflex save. However, the rogue level adds +2 to the reflex save, which means that for the reflex save we use the rogue level and for the fortitude we use the wizard level. (The rogue adds none) At 4th level, the monk adds +2 to the fortitude and reflex saves, and both the monk and sorcerer add +2 to the will save, so everything is upped by +2.
DM Zoc 06-24-04, 08:10 AM	Are you sure? My argument was that the wizard levels didn't add to Fort saves because only one of the wizard levels "counts" toward Fort saves (the other two levels being superceded by fighter Fort saves).
Ertai Planeswalker 06-25-04, 04:42 AM	That's how i understoond the whole thing. For each save, apply the best level at any level.
DM Zoc 06-25-04, 06:34 AM	It's actually pretty vague about the whole thing. I was going over the particular passages, and it just mentioned that you take the better of the saves (i.e. take the Good save instead of the Bad save). Imagine a pure fighter/wizard. Fighters have Good Fort saves, and Wizards have Bad Fort saves. This means that you take the Fighter Fort save at all levels, meaning that you don't add the +1 at level 3 (when Wizards would get a bonus, but Fighters would not). Otherwise, the previous argument of +1 BAB at every level for a Wizard/Sorcerer would work. The easiest way to do this, as far as I can tell, is to use the fractional saves optional rule. Since Fighter always adds the same fraction of a save, there shouldn't be any confusion. I wish I had written it down earlier (I don't have my books where I live), but if a good save is 1/2 and a bad save is 1/3, then you just add 1/2 to your save if any of your classes has that save as good, and 1/3 otherwise. Likewise, this solves the BAB issue because Wizard and Sorcerer both add 1/2 per level (and you take the higher of the two).
Degobah 06-25-04, 11:02 PM	I think I will use the fractional save bonuses. I may end up having to calculate the saves/BAB for most of my players though. Oh well. Thanks guys.