Axe vs. Longsword; Rapier vs. Pick: Wound/Vitality System [Archive] - Wizards Community

Axe vs. Longsword; Rapier vs. Pick: Wound/Vitality System [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xeviat-DM
06-26-05, 03:31 AM After playing Starwars d20, I decided to utilize the Unearthed Arcana wound/vitality system in my D&D games. My one worry is the difference between the 19-20/x2 and 20/x3, or 18-20/x2 and 20/x4 weapons. In the wound/vitality systems, these types of weapons become the same.

Any suggestions?
Mind Rogue
06-26-05, 04:58 PM One idea that I had was to make it so that axes and picks don't deal criticals more often, but they deal more damage on one. For instance, a longsword (normally 19-20/x2) deals normal damage to wounds on a 19, while a greataxe (20/x3) deals double damage to wounds, but only on a 20. Picks would thus deal triple wound damage, which is generally plenty to drop your opponent.

This system, however, slightly favors blades over axes because of how taking any wound point damage cripples you slightly. However, a single critical hit from an axe or pick is much more likely to mean death than one from a sword, and is thus harder for the cleric to heal.
StevenO
06-26-05, 05:56 PM I've seen the conversion somewhere but don't recall it now. I believe you should expand the crit range for x3 weapons to 19-20 and x4 weapons to 18-20. Since you likely realize how devestating crits are in a would system I would NEVER suggest doubling wound damage dealt by a critical hit. Even with DnD's lower damage output a single lucky crit can take down a stronger challenge to quickly.
DaTedinator
06-26-05, 06:22 PM Well, having played SWRPG, I can almost guarantee you that making them do more damage on a crit is a *very* bad idea (No offense intended, Mind Rogue).

One idea this gave me was maybe have them do damage to vitality in addition to wound on a crit. So a x3 weapon would do it's damage to wound points in addition to the vitality damage, rather than instead. And a x4 would do double damage to vitality, and normal damage to wounds.

Just my two pieces of currency.
Temrek
06-26-05, 06:51 PM Another idea might be to allow it to deal extra wound damage but not a doubloe amount! An axe might deal 30% extra damage for exempel why a scythe could deal 50% extra.
Mind Rogue
06-26-05, 08:57 PM Another idea might be to allow it to deal extra wound damage but not a doubloe amount! An axe might deal 30% extra damage for exempel why a scythe could deal 50% extra.
Doing fractional multiplication usually is a bad thing, as it can get complicated quickly.

Well, having played SWRPG, I can almost guarantee you that making them do more damage on a crit is a *very* bad idea (No offense intended, Mind Rogue).

One idea this gave me was maybe have them do damage to vitality in addition to wound on a crit. So a x3 weapon would do it's damage to wound points in addition to the vitality damage, rather than instead. And a x4 would do double damage to vitality, and normal damage to wounds.

No offense taken. I had actually considered this method at one point as well, although I had forgotten about it at the time of my post. The thing that it does, though, is make swords notably better than axes because they will deal wound damage more often, where the axes only get some vitality damage to even things out. However, it does help explain why soldiers (and many heroes) use swords rather than axes.
DaTedinator
06-26-05, 09:30 PM Well, I think the most balanced thing would be what Unearthed Arcana suggests. But if you want to keep the flavor, things get a bit more interesting. Hmm, just thinking out loud here... maybe just plain increase the damage of higher multiplier weapons? +2 or so per multiplier above x2?
Xeviat-DM
06-27-05, 12:35 AM The idea of making 20/x3 into 20/x2 and 20/x4 into 20/x3 might be a workable idea. I'm going to do a few quick tests, and post the results.

Assuming all attack rolls were to hit, here is the average damage per attack depending on the weapon type (without strength; while strength does matter a lot, in these averages it i pretty much just added in ontop of the base).

1d10, 20: 4.95v/0.26125w
1d8, 19-20: 3.825v/0.4275w
1d8, 20/x2: 4.05v/0.4275w
1d6, 18-20: 2.8v/0.49875w
1d6, 20/x3: 3.15v/0.49875w

While the wound damage for the comparable weapons is exactly the same, the high multiplier weapons will deal more vitality damage. I suspect this will be more apparent when misses are calculated.

Maybe this could be fixed if critical hits also dealt normal damage to vitality, but that takes away vitality point's shielding effect.
Gilean
06-27-05, 01:31 AM One idea this gave me was maybe have them do damage to vitality in addition to wound on a crit. So a x3 weapon would do it's damage to wound points in addition to the vitality damage, rather than instead. And a x4 would do double damage to vitality, and normal damage to wounds.This sounds kind of nice.
trodaimionn
06-27-05, 01:55 AM I use the wound vitality system as well, and have come up with a more elegant solution to your problem -

crit range stays the same, cut the multiplier in half. In other words a longsword does 19-20/x1 while a longbow does 20/x1.5, round down all the decimals.

Weapons retain thier flavor and there is fewer numbers to mess with.
RaspK FOG
06-27-05, 04:56 AM Well, having played SWRPG, I can almost guarantee you that making them do more damage on a crit is a *very* bad idea (No offense intended, Mind Rogue).

One idea this gave me was maybe have them do damage to vitality in addition to wound on a crit. So a x3 weapon would do it's damage to wound points in addition to the vitality damage, rather than instead. And a x4 would do double damage to vitality, and normal damage to wounds.

Just my two pieces of currency.
That's more or less what I do as well (whenever I use the V/W system): I apply normal damage on V points, ×2 criticals on W points, ×3 on both, and ×4 twice on W and once on V points. For example, a critical delivered by a scythe deals 4d4 + 2 × Str modifier points of Wound damage and 2d4 + Str modifier points of Vitality damage.
solandras
06-27-05, 05:13 AM Well in normal DnD you have two kinds of weapon crits....

1) For massive killing, axes and things that do X3 or X4. In a Vital/Wounds system these go to criting on 19 and 18, which makes sense.

2) For getting slightly more damage, you have the rapiers and stuff which crit on 19 and 18. By the books, in a Vital/Wounds system, this just gets screwed. I decided in mine to make these do more damage, showing a very precise shot. As such all weapons that normally crit on 19, do +2 damage on a crit, and those that normally crit on an 18, do +4 damage on a crit.
Thelon Fairblade
06-27-05, 11:22 AM Let me also cast my vote with the
"Do the 'extra' damage to vitality" crowd.

Longsword: 19-20 = d8 to Wound
Battleaxe: 20 = d8 to Wound, d8 to vitality (which gets you through the VP faster, for more wounds later)
Pick: 20 = d4 to Wound, 2d4 to vitality

However, I sorta like:

Scimitar: 18 = 1d6 wound, 19 = 1d6 wound, 20 = 1d6 wound
Longsword: 19 = d8 Wound, 20 = d8 wound
Battleaxe: 19 = d4 Wound + d4 Vitality; 20 = d8 wound + d8 vitality
Pick: 18 = 1 Wound + 1d2 vitality; 19 = 1d2 wound + 1d4 vitality; 20 = 1d4 wound + 2d4 vitality
BelZoradon
06-27-05, 01:57 PM there is a post here by yours truely where i solve a number of issues with the wound system, inculding the weapons all dealing the same ammount of damage on crits and otherwise... take a look at Wound System 2.0 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=443671)
Xeviat-DM
06-27-05, 05:22 PM That's for the Wound system, not the Wound/Vitality system.
BelZoradon
06-28-05, 12:08 PM there is a vitality aspect to it... but its still under construction lol (gotta handle bleeding and damage that isnt enough to wound somehow) see my post on the bottom of the first page about damage that doesnt cause a wound
Xeviat-DM
06-30-05, 07:01 AM Well, I tested it. We can have axes do double wound damage and picks do tripple wound damage, if and only if critical hits work like this.

Step 1: Roll a Threat.
Step 2: Roll regular damage, apply it to vitality.
Step 3: Roll Threat check.
Step 4: If threat check is successful, deal wound damage equal to vitality damage dealt, or double or tripple as appropriate.

That would make them even, but it would also mean that one would have less vitality points than in the standard system.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 06-26-05, 03:31 AM	After playing Starwars d20, I decided to utilize the Unearthed Arcana wound/vitality system in my D&D games. My one worry is the difference between the 19-20/x2 and 20/x3, or 18-20/x2 and 20/x4 weapons. In the wound/vitality systems, these types of weapons become the same. Any suggestions?
Mind Rogue 06-26-05, 04:58 PM	One idea that I had was to make it so that axes and picks don't deal criticals more often, but they deal more damage on one. For instance, a longsword (normally 19-20/x2) deals normal damage to wounds on a 19, while a greataxe (20/x3) deals double damage to wounds, but only on a 20. Picks would thus deal triple wound damage, which is generally plenty to drop your opponent. This system, however, slightly favors blades over axes because of how taking any wound point damage cripples you slightly. However, a single critical hit from an axe or pick is much more likely to mean death than one from a sword, and is thus harder for the cleric to heal.
StevenO 06-26-05, 05:56 PM	I've seen the conversion somewhere but don't recall it now. I believe you should expand the crit range for x3 weapons to 19-20 and x4 weapons to 18-20. Since you likely realize how devestating crits are in a would system I would NEVER suggest doubling wound damage dealt by a critical hit. Even with DnD's lower damage output a single lucky crit can take down a stronger challenge to quickly.
DaTedinator 06-26-05, 06:22 PM	Well, having played SWRPG, I can almost guarantee you that making them do more damage on a crit is a very bad idea (No offense intended, Mind Rogue). One idea this gave me was maybe have them do damage to vitality in addition to wound on a crit. So a x3 weapon would do it's damage to wound points in addition to the vitality damage, rather than instead. And a x4 would do double damage to vitality, and normal damage to wounds. Just my two pieces of currency.
Temrek 06-26-05, 06:51 PM	Another idea might be to allow it to deal extra wound damage but not a doubloe amount! An axe might deal 30% extra damage for exempel why a scythe could deal 50% extra.
Mind Rogue 06-26-05, 08:57 PM	Another idea might be to allow it to deal extra wound damage but not a doubloe amount! An axe might deal 30% extra damage for exempel why a scythe could deal 50% extra. Doing fractional multiplication usually is a bad thing, as it can get complicated quickly. Well, having played SWRPG, I can almost guarantee you that making them do more damage on a crit is a very bad idea (No offense intended, Mind Rogue). One idea this gave me was maybe have them do damage to vitality in addition to wound on a crit. So a x3 weapon would do it's damage to wound points in addition to the vitality damage, rather than instead. And a x4 would do double damage to vitality, and normal damage to wounds. No offense taken. I had actually considered this method at one point as well, although I had forgotten about it at the time of my post. The thing that it does, though, is make swords notably better than axes because they will deal wound damage more often, where the axes only get some vitality damage to even things out. However, it does help explain why soldiers (and many heroes) use swords rather than axes.
DaTedinator 06-26-05, 09:30 PM	Well, I think the most balanced thing would be what Unearthed Arcana suggests. But if you want to keep the flavor, things get a bit more interesting. Hmm, just thinking out loud here... maybe just plain increase the damage of higher multiplier weapons? +2 or so per multiplier above x2?
Xeviat-DM 06-27-05, 12:35 AM	The idea of making 20/x3 into 20/x2 and 20/x4 into 20/x3 might be a workable idea. I'm going to do a few quick tests, and post the results. Assuming all attack rolls were to hit, here is the average damage per attack depending on the weapon type (without strength; while strength does matter a lot, in these averages it i pretty much just added in ontop of the base). 1d10, 20: 4.95v/0.26125w 1d8, 19-20: 3.825v/0.4275w 1d8, 20/x2: 4.05v/0.4275w 1d6, 18-20: 2.8v/0.49875w 1d6, 20/x3: 3.15v/0.49875w While the wound damage for the comparable weapons is exactly the same, the high multiplier weapons will deal more vitality damage. I suspect this will be more apparent when misses are calculated. Maybe this could be fixed if critical hits also dealt normal damage to vitality, but that takes away vitality point's shielding effect.
Gilean 06-27-05, 01:31 AM	One idea this gave me was maybe have them do damage to vitality in addition to wound on a crit. So a x3 weapon would do it's damage to wound points in addition to the vitality damage, rather than instead. And a x4 would do double damage to vitality, and normal damage to wounds.This sounds kind of nice.
trodaimionn 06-27-05, 01:55 AM	I use the wound vitality system as well, and have come up with a more elegant solution to your problem - crit range stays the same, cut the multiplier in half. In other words a longsword does 19-20/x1 while a longbow does 20/x1.5, round down all the decimals. Weapons retain thier flavor and there is fewer numbers to mess with.
RaspK FOG 06-27-05, 04:56 AM	Well, having played SWRPG, I can almost guarantee you that making them do more damage on a crit is a very bad idea (No offense intended, Mind Rogue). One idea this gave me was maybe have them do damage to vitality in addition to wound on a crit. So a x3 weapon would do it's damage to wound points in addition to the vitality damage, rather than instead. And a x4 would do double damage to vitality, and normal damage to wounds. Just my two pieces of currency. That's more or less what I do as well (whenever I use the V/W system): I apply normal damage on V points, ×2 criticals on W points, ×3 on both, and ×4 twice on W and once on V points. For example, a critical delivered by a scythe deals 4d4 + 2 × Str modifier points of Wound damage and 2d4 + Str modifier points of Vitality damage.
solandras 06-27-05, 05:13 AM	Well in normal DnD you have two kinds of weapon crits.... 1) For massive killing, axes and things that do X3 or X4. In a Vital/Wounds system these go to criting on 19 and 18, which makes sense. 2) For getting slightly more damage, you have the rapiers and stuff which crit on 19 and 18. By the books, in a Vital/Wounds system, this just gets screwed. I decided in mine to make these do more damage, showing a very precise shot. As such all weapons that normally crit on 19, do +2 damage on a crit, and those that normally crit on an 18, do +4 damage on a crit.
Thelon Fairblade 06-27-05, 11:22 AM	Let me also cast my vote with the "Do the 'extra' damage to vitality" crowd. Longsword: 19-20 = d8 to Wound Battleaxe: 20 = d8 to Wound, d8 to vitality (which gets you through the VP faster, for more wounds later) Pick: 20 = d4 to Wound, 2d4 to vitality However, I sorta like: Scimitar: 18 = 1d6 wound, 19 = 1d6 wound, 20 = 1d6 wound Longsword: 19 = d8 Wound, 20 = d8 wound Battleaxe: 19 = d4 Wound + d4 Vitality; 20 = d8 wound + d8 vitality Pick: 18 = 1 Wound + 1d2 vitality; 19 = 1d2 wound + 1d4 vitality; 20 = 1d4 wound + 2d4 vitality
BelZoradon 06-27-05, 01:57 PM	there is a post here by yours truely where i solve a number of issues with the wound system, inculding the weapons all dealing the same ammount of damage on crits and otherwise... take a look at Wound System 2.0 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=443671)
Xeviat-DM 06-27-05, 05:22 PM	That's for the Wound system, not the Wound/Vitality system.
BelZoradon 06-28-05, 12:08 PM	there is a vitality aspect to it... but its still under construction lol (gotta handle bleeding and damage that isnt enough to wound somehow) see my post on the bottom of the first page about damage that doesnt cause a wound
Xeviat-DM 06-30-05, 07:01 AM	Well, I tested it. We can have axes do double wound damage and picks do tripple wound damage, if and only if critical hits work like this. Step 1: Roll a Threat. Step 2: Roll regular damage, apply it to vitality. Step 3: Roll Threat check. Step 4: If threat check is successful, deal wound damage equal to vitality damage dealt, or double or tripple as appropriate. That would make them even, but it would also mean that one would have less vitality points than in the standard system.