Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Masterful_Norg 06-27-04, 09:30 PM	This idea came to me while I was thinking of weapon proficiency groups from UA. What if every weapon group shown in UA was a skill? Any weapon from each weapon group would have an initial -3 penalty towards its use. Once you have 4 ranks in a weapons use skill your attack bonus with that weapon would become +1. Now give every class 8+int modifier for skills. Classes like the Wizard and Sorceror would be limited to a +9 BAB at level 20 because weapon use would be a cross class skill for them. If you were to make spellcasting skill reliant then that would put the cleric in ballance. By using this method you can construct NPCs (or PCS) who have formidable skills, but aren't necessarily skilled combatants. Weapon focus essentially becomes skill focus.
the Horc 06-27-04, 10:39 PM	You'd likely have to amped up everyone's skills else give them a separate BAB skill set.
gbnogkfs 06-28-04, 08:09 AM	coughCODASYSTEMcough
Ranger REG 06-28-04, 07:44 PM	See Anime d20 System Reference Document for combat skills (e.g., Melee Attack, Ranged Attack, Melee Defense, Ranged Defense, Gun Combat, etc.). You can find it in the Guardians of Order web site. Oh, and it's free, unlike coughCODASYSTEMcough. :smirk:
Masterful_Norg 06-28-04, 11:48 PM	I've actually downloaded that before. I wasn't aware that skills were run that way in the system though because I haven't used read through it entirely. I glanced at it and determined that it was a wonderful tool for DM's and responsible players. I was unaware that this system was already a part of some other game, but sure I wasn't the first to think of it. To ellaborate on my suggestion, which as it happens has precedence in other games and or systems, what do you think of maneuvers such as whirlwind attack, cleave, and any others being done through Weapon Use skill checks. DCs would equal the target's armor class +X (where X is a number to be determined for each maneuver). So, when performing a whirlwind attack every target's AC would essentially be raised by X. Then the fighter could focus his extra feats on other stuff. Has this also been thought of before?
Craith 06-30-04, 02:56 AM	I have started to work BAB to Skills as well as Spells. I even think about making hitpoints and AC part of the skill system, but I don't want to reinvent Rolemaster (allthough I like it :) ), so I think that will overcomplicate it, but maybe I find a good solution. At the moment I'm still busy learning for the university, but in 2 days, freedom starts (for 3 months) Craith
Lina_Inverse 06-30-04, 07:43 AM	you just raised every fighters to-hit by 5 you realize that right?also mages got +1 to hit....or -10.
Masterful_Norg 06-30-04, 11:53 AM	How so? Fighters reach +20 at level 20 and mages reach +9 at level 20. +5? -10? :uh-huh:
Lina_Inverse 07-01-04, 06:21 AM	Originally posted by Masterful_Norg How so? Fighters reach +20 at level 20 and mages reach +9 at level 20. +5? -10? :uh-huh: skill max ranks as a class skill is 23,cross-class its 11.thus +5 to-hit(skill focus is +2 more and skill ranks is 3 more) also it removes the possibility of average BAB.
Arcade 07-01-04, 12:38 PM	The idea is good. Thinking about how my players would use it, this is the effects that would come about: 1. Fighters, barbarians, and paladins will only power up one or two weapon groups because that's the only weapons they use. In effect, they will see this as a big boost to their skill points and a chance to buy lots more skills. 2. Wizards and sorcerers will likely never buy BAB unless they are worried about touch attacks. In effect, they will be left with many more skill points than they had before. Perhaps they will spend points on a "ray" or "touch" attack weapon group, but that's it. 3. Clerics and rogues will likely max out their BAB in a few weapon groups, giving them a to-hit progression of a fighter. The cleric will still have many more skill points than they had normally. 4. Monks will not care about any weapons except unarmed combat, so will max out their BAB and then have about the same amount of skill points as now. 5. The ranger, rogue, and bard will end up with less skill points now because they need to spend them on weapon groups, and after they have done that, they will have fewer skill points left than in the normal system. 6. Any sorcerer or wizard who wants a high BAB (such as those wanting to be bladesingers), will take 5 or 6 levels in their spellcasting class. Then they will take a level of fighter and put all their skill points into BAB for one weapon group. This will give them the BAB with one weapon as good as any fighter's and strong spellcasting ability. These aren't complaints- just observations on how I see my players using such a system. I'd like to see you keep working on this because I'd like to adopt something similar in my game.
Masterful_Norg 07-01-04, 06:26 PM	Lina_Inverse, Please note that I said these skills recieve a -3 penaly to their use and that skill focus and weapon focus are now one in the same. I also realize that their is no possibility for average BAB. Arcade, Thanks for giving your thoughts.
Lina_Inverse 07-03-04, 12:26 AM	Originally posted by Masterful_Norg Lina_Inverse, Please note that I said these skills recieve a -3 penaly to their use and that skill focus and weapon focus are now one in the same. I also realize that their is no possibility for average BAB. Arcade, Thanks for giving your thoughts. you mean base armor class starts at 13?its 1 less for non-profieciency but that does work.it still means +2 to hit thanks to skill focus. theres still the problems arcade pointed out.rogues and espilly clerics DONT need 4 attacks per round,are you going to stick both classes with bad BAB? are you going to hand out more skillpoints to compensate?then everyone gets more skillpoints,if not fighters have even LESS skillpoints than normal. skills work so drasticlly diffrent from BAB that makeing it into a skill is NOT a good idea. additionally no skill IN THE GAME is equal to a point of BAB.NONE,weapon focus nets +1 to a single weapon,skill focus nets +3 to a single skill.one of those is a good feat,and one isnt very good at all.
SykeXero 07-03-04, 01:34 AM	Another possibility is that if you specialize in multiple weapons there would be synergy between them. For example: A 3rd level dwarven Fighter likes to use hammers and axes and so he has 5 ranks in each which grants a +2 to all weapon groups besides the one he has five in. This would up being +7 to both. I think a problem is that a fghter is not a skill-centric class so that means that at 3rd level a Human Fighter could have 4 groups maxed out with other skills maxed to boot. The groups would grant a total of +6 to one-another.
Masterful_Norg 07-03-04, 02:31 AM	Orignally posted by Lina Inverseyou mean base armor class starts at 13?its 1 less for non-profieciency but that does work.it still means +2 to hit thanks to skill focus. A different base AC is another way of looking at it. Perhaps I should have read those feats and which bonuses they actually give.theres still the problems arcade pointed out.rogues and espilly clerics DONT need 4 attacks per round,are you going to stick both classes with bad BAB? are you going to hand out more skillpoints to compensate?then everyone gets more skillpoints,if not fighters have even LESS skillpoints than normal.Probably more skill points.skills work so drasticlly diffrent from BAB that makeing it into a skill is NOT a good idea. additionally no skill IN THE GAME is equal to a point of BAB.NONE,weapon focus nets +1 to a single weapon,skill focus nets +3 to a single skill.one of those is a good feat,and one isnt very good at all.Exactly! Which is why by this system's reasoning a +1 with every form of attack is worth many skills! This is also exactly the reason why I suggested that the effects from feats such as whirlwind attack should be relegated to the result of successful Weapons Use checks against raised DCs (ACs in this case). SykeXero, The Fighter will need some nice new class skills. I think synergy bonuses might stress the ballance of the system more than it already needs to be, even though the idea makes sense in some ways.
Lina_Inverse 07-03-04, 02:54 AM	Originally posted by Masterful_Norg A.Exactly! Which is why by this system's reasoning a +1 with every form of attack is worth many skills! i have never seen a charecter use more than two weapon types.maybe 3 if you count club. +1 to hit with ONE weapon is worth MORE than +3 to ANY skill. This is also exactly the reason why I suggested that the effects from feats such as whirlwind attack should be relegated to the result of successful Weapons Use checks against raised DCs (ACs in this case). so all combat feats become part of the weapon skill?wow,you made it BETTER than points in BAB.that or you still need the feat and made those feats worse.either way,poor fighter ;o;. also you dont adress multible attacks per round,that will require major reworking.
Masterful_Norg 07-03-04, 04:48 PM	I'll explain a little more clearly using an example. A fighter is surrounded by on all sides by orcs, any one of which he could defeat in single combat. He may make a whirlwind attack against all of the orcs at the cost of raising each orc's armor class by 5 to represent how much more difficult it is to perform a whirlwind attack maneuvre successfully. There is no whirlwind attack feat. For multiple in attacks go with this: A character may make more than one Use Weapon check in a round. However, for each subsequent use in the same round an accumulative -5 penalty to all weapon's use checks. No more attacks can be made with a Use Weapon check if one's non-epic ranks are reduced to 0.
Lina_Inverse 07-05-04, 02:44 AM	Originally posted by Masterful_Norg I'll explain a little more clearly using an example. A fighter is surrounded by on all sides by orcs, any one of which he could defeat in single combat. He may make a whirlwind attack against all of the orcs at the cost of raising each orc's armor class by 5 to represent how much more difficult it is to perform a whirlwind attack maneuvre successfully. There is no whirlwind attack feat. thus weakening the FIGHTER class as there are about 20 less feats for him to take,additionally makeing the use weapon skill about 10x as good as every other skill in the game and most feats x.X
Masterful_Norg 07-05-04, 03:29 AM	Now the fighter doesn't have to take those special maneuvre feats and can use them on something else. Now about the BAB being more valuable than other skills. This is true; some skills are just better than others. If you want we can take BAB off the "Skill list" but we can make character's buy each point of BAB with a set number of skill points. I'd say a point of BAB with any weapon from one of the UA weapon groups is equal to about 3 ranks in the average skill. However, seeing as BAB isn't a skill, skill focus doesn't apply to it. As I think I originally stated, this system isn't a way to make more powerful characters; its a way to make more realistic NPCs. Here's a question: How many skill ranks does a point to a fortitude or will save cost? What about a reflex save?
Tam 07-07-04, 06:56 AM	I have already posted this on another thread, here it goes again. Instead of BAB and Hp progression, we have combat skills that are purchased separately from other skills. You compute your BAB and Hp from the skill ranks you have. Weapon skills : the skills you had in mind. These are class skills for people who have some training in combat (3/4 and full BAB) Combat skills : Advanced skill that are class skill only for those who have full BAB (specialise in combat). Defense skills : Are useful to improve Hp. Dodge is the most powerful Hp giving skill (2Hp/rank), but the other have some side advantage, beside being class skill for more classes. ------------------ Combat Skills: Melee Unarmed Throw Shoot Defense Skills: Dodge Parry Combat Sense Weapon Skills: Simple Weapons (Melee[Str]/Throw[Dex]/Shoot[Dex]) Touch, Ray, Unarmed(stun), club, quarterstaff(simple only), dagger, Dart, light crossbow, short bow, sling. Monk weapons (Unarmed[MaxOf(Str,Dex)]/Throw[Dex]/Shoot[Dex]) Touch, Ray, Unarmed, Kama, Nunchaku, quarterstaff(simple,double), sai, dagger, javelin, siangham, shuriken, light crossbow, sling, handaxe Druid Weapons (Melee[Str]/Throw[Dex]/Shoot[Dex]) Touch, Ray + see unearthed arcana Claw Weapons[Str] (Unarmed) Polearms (Melee[Str]) Spears and lances (Melee[Str]/Throw[Dex]) Axes (Melee[Str]/Throw[Dex]) Light blades (Melee[MaxOf(Str,Dex)]/Throw[Dex]) Heavy blades (Melee[Str]) Maces & clubs (Melee[Str]) Picks & Hammers (Melee[Str]) Flail and Chains (Melee[Dex]) Crossbows (Shoot[Dex]) Bows (Shoot[Dex]) ------------------ Formulas: Init[Dex] : Combat Sense Bab : (Combat rnk+ Weapon rnk)/2 - 3 The relevant attribute is given by the weapon skill. Shield bash[Str] : (Melee rnk+ Parry rnk)/2 - 3 Base Hp : (Max Weapon rnk + Melee rnk + Unarmed rnk + 2xDodge rnk + Parry rnk+ Combat Sense rnk) Disable Threshold : Base Hp/2 (Max 10). Actual Hp : (Base Hp - Disable Threshold) + (Con Mod. x Level). Grapple : Max Of(Unarmed,Monk Weapon) + Str mod. + Special size mod. ------------------ I think the following combat skills point/lvl and class skill emulate the core class combat proficiencies quite well. You get (4xn Combat skill pts) at 1st level. Brb 8 Combat Skill pts/Lvl All Weapons skills (Except Mnk,Drd) Melee,Unarmed,Throw,Shoot, Dodge,Parry Brd 8 Combat Skill pts/lvl Simple Weapons, Light Blade Clc 8 Combat Skill pts/lvl Simple Weapons, Parry Drd 8 Combat Skill pts/lvl Druid Weapons, Parry Fgt 12 Combat Skill pts/Lvl All Weapons (Except Mnk,Drd) Melee,Unarmed,Throw,Shoot, Parry Mnk 6 Combat Skill pts/lvl Monk Weapons, Dodge Pal 10 Combat Skill pts/Lvl All Weapons (Except Mnk,Drd) Melee,Unarmed,Throw,Shoot, Parry Rog 8 Combat Skill pts/lvl Simple Weapons, Light Blade Rng 10 Combat Skill pts/Lvl All Weapons (Except Mnk,Drd) Melee,Throw,Shoot Sor 6 Combat Skill pts/lvl Wiz 5 Combat Skill pts/lvl ---------- Rules adjustments: Racial weapons/Divinity favored weapon: Simple/Martial/Divinity favored : the weapon is added to the simple weapon group list. Exotic : the weapon is added to the relevant weapon group. Unarmed strike: If using unarmed instead of melee, you are considered armed. Feats conversion: Skill focus with combat skills might face restriction. Whatever the case, the bonuses are considered rank in the formulas above. Weapon proficiency disappear, instead you get: Weapon familiarity[x,y]: You add the weapon x (that belong to a list) to the compatible weapon group list y. Exotic weapon proficiency [x]: The weapon is added to the relevant weapon group list. Weapon focus: Alias for Skill focus [Weapon group(x)]. Improved weapon focus: Alias for Skill focus [Combat(x)]. Improved unarmed strike: Alias for skill focus [Combat(Unarmed)]. Weapon Spec. : It applies to a Weapon group. Improved weapon Spec. : It applies to a Combat skill. Improved initiative becomes : Alias for Skill focus [Combat sense] Toughness : You might want to consider the following alternative: Skill focus (Dodge) : -> + 6 Hp Skill focus (Parry) : -> + 3 Hp, +3/2 Shield bash Skill focus (Combat sense) : -> + 3 Hp, +3 Init Improved unarmed strike : -> + 3 Hp, +3 Unarmed --------------- Next, we should try to do the same with magic; so we will be able to make categories: Combat/Skill/Magic/Features the classes being mostly defined by there class skill list.
Masterful_Norg 07-07-04, 03:17 PM	Interesting. Are you working with Haldrik on this? For magic you might want to check out the dynamic sorcery system from the Anime d20 SRD. I would like to see the thread that you're posting on.
Tam 07-08-04, 02:50 AM	Interesting. Are you working with Haldrik on this? For magic you might want to check out the dynamic sorcery system from the Anime d20 SRD. I would like to see the thread that you're posting on. Actually, I should have said it was just a post since it went widely unnoticed. So, I fear this is all there is to it.
Masterful_Norg 07-08-04, 04:57 AM	Well its a good start anyway. Have you seen BESM's system?
jagggar 07-08-04, 11:42 AM	A thought that comes to a compromise between what you're saying and Lina's feat complaint. Feat chains become single feats that allow the character to make attempts at specific moves. The DCs would be higher for the attacks which normally are feats with lots of preresiquets. (please pay no attention to my spelling) And I gotta vote for combat skills being seperate from normal skills.
Tam 07-13-04, 05:48 AM	I've read BESM d20 and found it nicely done and balanced. So, why try yet another system you ask me? Well, sometime you just have an idea and try to see if that would work. Skill points offer a very different (more organic ?) way of building a character. - It allows a smoother progression. - You can easily hand out skill points in game without breaking the balance. - It is easier to keep characters in the levels you have designed your campaign for, while still allowing progression. (I find myself that low to mid level adventures are more fun). How would it work ? For her character, the player chose 24+int modifier class skills. A PC has an initiate level, that is raised in game during some special events (DM Call). A PC gains Con mod. Hp every initiate level, an extra feat every 3 initiate levels and 1 bonus attribute point every 4 initiate levels. The max rank a PC can have in a class skill is Initiate level + 3 The max rank a PC can have in a cross class skill is (Initiate level + 3)/2 To increase a class skill by 1 rank cost as many skill points as the final rank of the skill. To increase a cross class skill by 1 rank cost as many skill points as twice the final rank of the skill. Granting Sp: Sp can be handed over in game, but most of them will probably be given at the end of each session. A D&D level would be gain each time a player would have earned around 20x(Initiate level+3) Sp, so, if you want to stick to standard D&D, grant initiate level every time you hit that mark. Slowing this will end up with more versatile characters while accelerating it will end up with more specialised one. Sp award are not intended to mimic Xp, in peculiar, there should be little variation throu the campaign: for instance 10-20/session at low level to 20-40/session at high level. For crafting and spell casting purpose take 1 Sp ~ 50 Xp. Character creation: To create a character at initiate level N, chose 18 skills that you will max out and 6 skills that will be at 1/2 their max. ----------- Magic skills: Arcane magic: Arcane magic revolves around the idea of sculpting a spell into a recipient a "Matrix" and releasing it. Depending of the setting, the spell matrix can be in various locations. In the standard setting, they are always tied to the caster, his body, mind or soul. Other settings might use external objects tied to the caster (like staff, orbs etc...). To understand a spell, minimum rank in the related school is required. The various school (skills) studied at the university are: Abjuration Convocation Divination Enchantment Evocation Illusion Necromancy Transmutation To weave a spell of a given level, you have a rank requirement of (2 + 2 x spell level) in the related school. To weave a spell, you have to master the various matrix weave available: Matrix weave I Matrix weave II Matrix weave IV Matrix weave VII Matrix weave XI Matrix weave XVI Matrix weave XXI Additional matrix are at phase XXI. A Matrix contains rank/2 spell slot, the highest of which is at (Matrix rank - (1+Matrix phase))/2 lvl. Except cantrip, a Spell matrix contains at most 1 spell slot/lvl. You can spend 1 skill point to decrease a Matrix phase by 1. Caster level : ((School rank+Matrix rank)/2-3) Sorcery: Sorcery is the sculpting of magical energy on the spot. You use a magical pool to store magical energy. The pool is organised in circles of increasing depth (0-9). To cast a spell of a given level, you have to use a pool circle of the relevant depth at least. For sorcerer, the magical pool is often tied to her blood. To access it, use the skill: Magic pool draw The deepest pool circle you are able to tap into is: ((Magic pool draw rank - 2)/2) Each pool circle contains 28 energy point + ((charisma bonus - circle depth)[min -1]). Magic pool (blood): This is the default pool a sorcerer tap into. It has 10 circles and full arcane spell failure attached to it. Magic pool (Muse): This is the default pool a bard tap into. It has 7 circles, is usable with light armor without spell failure, grants access to bardic music, and often requires music or other form of art being performed. Phylum: A Phylum is a list of spells (normally tied to a common theme). The Phylum skill measure the mastery of the caster over the phylum. At given ranks, a new spell is available. A Spell domain is a phylum. A customized phylum usually begins with a cantrip and contains 3 extra spells. Blood phylum are: Domain phylum contains spells at each level except 0. Lesser phylum contains spells at level 0,1,4,7 Medium phylum contains spells at level 0,2,5,8 Greater phylum contains spells at level 0,3,6,9 Muse phylum are: Lesser muse phylum contains spells at level 0,1,3,5 Greater muse phylum contains spells at level 0,2,4,6 The DM might allow extra spell in a phylum if it is well thought out. At any even rank, a phylum can contain no more than one spell of any level less or equal than (rank/2)-1. To be able to cast a spell, the minimum skill rank required is 2x(1+Spell lvl). The cost is 7 energy points. Every additional rank in the phylum decrease the cost by 1 point to a minimum of 4. If a spell of a domain has obvious downgraded version to it (Summon monster XI, Greater ..., meta magic enhanced version of a spell), the caster may try to cast the downgraded version earlier in her carreer. This cost 7 energy point of the downgraded version circle and requires a phylum check against DC (10 + 2 x downgraded spell level) Caster level : pool draw rank - 3. Spirit magic: Divine magic is the art of dealing with extra planar entities. The character makes contact with allied spirits which he can ask to perform some tasks (mainly casting spells in its stead). Skills are: Allied spirit I Allied spirit II Allied spirit IV Allied spirit VII Allied spirit XI Allied spirit XVI Allied spirit XXI Faith spirit I Wild spirit I Additional allied spirit are at remoteness XXI The max task level a spirit is able to perform is given by (spirit rank - (1+ spirit remotness))/2. and it performs its task at caster level: (spirit rank - 3). A spirit will perform (spirit rank)/2 task per days, and, except for level 0 task, at most one task of each level. Each wisdom point above 10 decrease one of the spirit remoteness by 1 (Min I). Faith spirit granted powers: A Faith spirit is tied to 2 domains. It grants the domain powers to its ally, in addition to domain spells. It also grant the power to turn or rebuke undeads. Spirit of the wild granted powers: Wild empathy, Animal companion, Nature sense, woodland stride, trackless step, resist nature lure, wild shape, venom immunity, a thousand face, timeless body. Minor spirits: Spirits of the land and spirits of righteousness aren't able to perform as big task as other spirits, but they will perform base task more often/day. The max task level a minor spirit is able to perform is given by: (spirit rank - (1+spirit remotness))/4. It can perform (spirit rank)/2+wisdom mod. task/day, spread evenly among the level available (start at 1st level). With ranks, minor spirit impart power to their ally. Spirit of the land granted powers: Wild empathy, favored ennemy, animal companion, woodland stride, camouflage, hide in plain side. Spirit of righteousness granted powers: Aura of good, detect evil, Smite evil, divine grace, Lay on hands, Aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount, remove disease. Rage spirit: Rage spirit do not perform magical task, but they grant power to their ally: Fast movement, rage, trap sense, Damage reduction. ----------- Barbarian: Magic skill points : 1/lvl Class skills: Rage spirit Bard: Magic skill points : 6/lvl Class skills: Magic pool draw (muse), 5 Lesser muse phylum, 5 Greater muse phylum Cleric: Magic skill points : 6/lvl Class skills: Allied spirits(outer planes), Faith spirit. Druid: Magic skill points : 6/lvl Class skills: Allied spirits(Nature), Wild spirit. Paladin: Magic skill points : 1/lvl Class skills: Spirit of righteousness VII Ranger: Magic skill points : 1/lvl Class skills: Spirit of the land VII Sorcerer: Magic skill points : 12/lvl Class skills: Magic pool draw, 4 lesser phylum, 4 medium phylum, 2 greater phylum, 2 domain or extra greater phylum Wizard: Magic skill points : 12/lvl Class skills: Schools, Spell matrix
Neoatomic 07-16-04, 12:54 AM	It is a little more realistic to have skill govern combat but all you are doing is allowing the PCs to choose if they want to be able to hit or not. The way you explained it was exactly the same as it works out in BAB. I could see a possible skill that effects BAB with bonuses stacking with current BAB but it would have to be a Cross class for every class to lessen the power. Its good to give players choices but not when it just gunks up game mechanics. It almost feels like a second edition concept. :behold: