Post/Author/DateTime	Post
elven warriorXX 02-19-06, 10:39 AM	I have made a Balanced defence bonus that is useable with the current armor system. Please comment on which classes should get which of the 3 different Progressions. Class defence bonus Classes gain a Defensive bonus to their AC as they go in higher levels. Armor penalty is subtracted from this bonus or Dex mod (which ever is balanced in your games). Level Good Average Poor 1st +0 +0 +0 2nd +1 +0 +0 3rd +1 +1 +0 4th +2 +1 +1 5th +2 +1 +1 6th +3 +2 +1 7th +3 +2 +2 8th +4 +3 +2 9th +4 +3 +2 10th +5 +3 +2 11th +5 +4 +3 12th +6 +4 +3 13th +6 +4 +3 14th +7 +5 +3 15th +7 +5 +4 16th +8 +6 +4 17th +8 +6 +4 18th +9 +6 +4 19th +9 +7 +5 20th +10 +7 +5 Good- Rogue, fighter, barbarian, monk, paladin Average- Druid, cleric, bard, ranger, physic warrior Poor- wizard, sorcerer, psion, wilder
Xeviat-DM 02-19-06, 03:42 PM	I like the notion of subtracting armor penalties from class defense bonus; that could serve to balance it. Problem is that D&D's AC system assumes magic, and there are many more ways to boost your AC with magic than your attack bonus. You would have to remove natural AC or deflection, or change natural AC and armor to damage reduction to keep the ACs balanced. in a low/no magic game, maybe, but not in the current game.
elven warriorXX 02-19-06, 03:54 PM	I like the notion of subtracting armor penalties from class defense bonus; that could serve to balance it. Problem is that D&D's AC system assumes magic, and there are many more ways to boost your AC with magic than your attack bonus. You would have to remove natural AC or deflection, or change natural AC and armor to damage reduction to keep the ACs balanced. in a low/no magic game, maybe, but not in the current game. Indeed. Armor will have to have DR. This could go along well with the Armor as DR system in UA (with the AC bonuses and DR made a little higher) OR you could make the Class bonuses higher (based on BAB) and just make the bonus that armor gives to AC into DR instead.
Vaelan 02-22-06, 04:15 AM	Which classes get which progressions depends on why you want to implement the Defense Bonus. For example, if you wish to implement it to encourage unarmored fighters, then people who get access to more armor should get better Defense Bonus progressions so that those who benefit the most from armor have the most incentive to go without armor. This means you would move Rogue to the Average list and Monk to the Poor list. If you wish to implement it to create an overall shift in the balance between bonuses to hit and AC, then a single bonus for all characters that is not affected by armor would be most appropriate.
elven warriorXX 02-22-06, 09:47 AM	Which classes get which progressions depends on why you want to implement the Defense Bonus. For example, if you wish to implement it to encourage unarmored fighters, then people who get access to more armor should get better Defense Bonus progressions so that those who benefit the most from armor have the most incentive to go without armor. This means you would move Rogue to the Average list and Monk to the Poor list. If you wish to implement it to create an overall shift in the balance between bonuses to hit and AC, then a single bonus for all characters that is not affected by armor would be most appropriate. How would a Unarmored fighter have a Higher AC then the speedy rogue? The monk is just as good as dodging blows as the fighter is. Some classes need a higher BDB then their armor Prof gives. Also the BDB in UA started off WAY to high. Thats a good idea to let all classes have a strait bonus as they increase in levels. How I made the BDBs I just 1/2 the BAB. Also a System like found in the SWRPG would work too, which is that Armor only gives DR and each class gets a high BDB.
The_Last_Rogue 02-22-06, 11:18 AM	Here is what I do: I use armor as Dmg Reduction Then a skill bonus on top of it Best BAB's (fighters, barbs, etc) 1st level +2 AC, goes up +2 every 3 levels Good Bab's (Cleric, druid, monk) 1st level +1 AC, goes up +1 every 2 levels Avg BAB's (bard, rogue) 1st level +1 AC, goes up +1 every 3 levels Poor (wiz, sorcerer) 1st level +1 AC, goes up +1 every 4 levels I think this accurately reflects the amount of skill someone has in combat. The monk has his wisdom bonus so I opted to keep him grouped with the cleric. A lot of people would argue that the thief and bard are nimble characters who should have a better skill bonus to avoid these things - I counter with they do, its called dex bonus. Also they are so focused on their skills, their skill to avoid combat attacks should never be comparable to one who devotes their life to combat. just my 2 cents
Vaelan 02-22-06, 09:21 PM	You haven't told me why you would want to implement such a system, so my answers will not be as complete as they could be. How would a Unarmored fighter have a Higher AC then the speedy rogue? The Rogue's agility is already accounted for by his focus on Dexterity, which affects AC. The monk is just as good as dodging blows as the fighter is. Which is represented by the fact that Monks already get a level-based defense bonus and their Wisdom modifier to AC. Some classes need a higher BDB then their armor Prof gives. It is impossible to argue this point until you tell me why you want to implement the rule. Good Bab's (Cleric, druid, monk) Avg BAB's (bard, rogue) There is no difference between the BAB of these two groups. A lot of people would argue that the thief and bard are nimble characters who should have a better skill bonus to avoid these things - I counter with they do, its called dex bonus. Also they are so focused on their skills, their skill to avoid combat attacks should never be comparable to one who devotes their life to combat. Rangers are more focused on Dexterity than Bards and have just as many skill points. If you're going to selectively ignore BAB in a BAB-based system, then I see no reason why you should not ignore it in the Ranger's case as well.
Objulen 02-23-06, 07:22 AM	I'd just use the defense bonus from UA and change the DR from armor. 1/2 the armor's armor bonus as DR, with fractions beings rounded into +1 armor bonus. Magical enhancements add to DR.
PerennialRook 02-23-06, 02:24 PM	The argument that a rogue's skill at avoiding blows is acounted for in his dexterity has one big flaw. Everyone's Dex applies to armor. I think that people who have tumble as a class skill should be right up there with the fighters, perhaps even removing tumble as a skill since tumble and BDB both cover the same ability, the ability to avoid being hit in combat.
Objulen 02-23-06, 04:08 PM	Fighters are better at dodging blows than rouges because they are fighters, and rogues aren't -- it's the same reason why Fighters have a higher BAB. They are more skilled at dodging blows because that's what they practice in their class. It also fits with the core rules. Fighters wear more armor than rogues, generally speaking, meaning they generally have higher AB's than rogues. Rogues do make up for this with DEX, which fighters are less likely to invest in unless they are going with a 2 weapon fighting build, which certainly helps make up the difference. The average fighter has around 12 DEX, generally, maybe 14. A rogue easily has 18 or more.
Vaelan 02-23-06, 11:48 PM	The argument that a rogue's skill at avoiding blows is acounted for in his dexterity has one big flaw. Everyone's Dex applies to armor. Nobody claimed that the Rogue's skill at avoiding blows is accounted for by Dexterity. The Rogue is envisioned as agile, and that is why some say Rogues should get a better defense bonus. This agility is perceived because Rogues tend to focus on Dexterity. Giving a class a better defense bonus because they tend to focus on Dexterity is giving them two benefits for one trait.
Aminar 02-24-06, 07:09 AM	I'd set ups a points system that takes Ref save(For that natural agility feel), and armor proficiency. IE Good Ref save 2 points No armor pro 0 points Light Armor Pro 1 point Medium armor pro 2 points Heavy Armor Pro 3 points Shield pro 1 points Tower shiled pro 1 points Natural AC bonuses 1 point 0-2 points =Low 3-4 points=Med 5+ points = High So Rangers get High, Monks get Med, Barbarians get high, fighters get high.
Objulen 02-24-06, 07:19 AM	The Rogue is envisioned as agile, and that is why some say Rogues should get a better defense bonus. This agility is perceived because Rogues tend to focus on Dexterity. Those that argue that would be wrong. If rogues were meant to get a defense bonus for being dextrous, then they would get that instead of what evasion normally does. Defese bonuses are modled after what armor a class generally wears. Classes that wear heavier armor get higher defense bonuses. That's why there are four catagories -- fighters, paladins, and clerics wear heavy armor, barbarians and druids wear medium armor, bards, rangers, and rogues, wear light armor, and monks, sorcerers, and wizards wear no armor. Giving rogues a higher base attack bonus would be unbalancing, just like giving rogues free bonus proficiency in heavy armor and not having it interfere with their class abilities.
Vaelan 02-24-06, 08:38 AM	Did you quote the wrong post, Objulen? Your responses seem directed towards someone else... someone else who has actually posted something contrary to what you state in that post, as opposed to myself who agrees with you entirely. Aminar, it is difficult to judge your proposal without hearing your reason for implementing it. Your system is less than optimal for the only two reasons that have been presented, so I would like to hear why you would implement your system into the game.
elven warriorXX 02-24-06, 09:21 AM	Nobody claimed that the Rogue's skill at avoiding blows is accounted for by Dexterity. Just to point out The Rogue's agility is already accounted for by his focus on Dexterity, which affects AC.
Objulen 02-24-06, 09:32 AM	Did you quote the wrong post, Objulen? Your responses seem directed towards someone else... someone else who has actually posted something contrary to what you state in that post, as opposed to myself who agrees with you entirely. Aminar, it is difficult to judge your proposal without hearing your reason for implementing it. Your system is less than optimal for the only two reasons that have been presented, so I would like to hear why you would implement your system into the game. No. I was specifically refuting this part: The Rogue is envisioned as agile, and that is why some say Rogues should get a better defense bonus. This agility is perceived because Rogues tend to focus on Dexterity. Though I was a bit unclear. I will edit for clarity.
Objulen 02-24-06, 04:22 PM	double post
Netherek 03-03-06, 03:57 AM	I currently use the Defense bonus as written in UA. It may seem over the top at the start, but really it doesn't take a fighter long to earn 200 gp to obtain scale which happens to have a +6 bonus. A npc fighter lvl1 in DMG has splint, and 1/2plate at 2nd, Full at 3rd. The Fighter easily outstrips his DB. For the Medium armor rate, it starts the same as scale, the typicle medium starting armor. For the Light, well, it may seem high, but the Ranger is included in that bracket. For the Non-armor, I find that over-kill, and start it at +1, though +0 isn't unreasonable. The bonus is outstripped by enhancement bonuses if the gm hands out bracers at the rate the npc DMG rate. Adding the armor penalty to the DB is interesting, haven't considered it, I just have armor apply if it's worn, DB if unarmored. If I were to use armor as DR, that would definately work.
elven warriorXX 03-03-06, 11:32 AM	Indeed the UA BDB works well but I am trying to make a BDB that will work with a new armor system I am working on. I like your idea of having BDB for PC when not using armor.
Dipteran_Legacy 03-04-06, 12:52 PM	elven warrior....I'm sorry, but I dont understand your logic at all. if you want the "agile combatants" to have the high ac's, then why have you left rangers in the medium bracket, while paladins are in the high bracket? if you want the ac to reflect the armor, then why are psychic warriors in the medium, while rogues are in the high? I'm not at all arguing against the whole "agile-ish characters should have a high natural def bonus". I'm just really confused. it seems like you started off basing it on the traditional high armor/BaB = high def, but then decided that you didnt like psywar's much, while rogues were really cool and needed a higher bonus..... whether you decide that more agile classes should have the higher bonuses, while more sterotypically slow classes shouldnt, or whether you feel the characters normal armor proficiency or BaB should reflect that is fine, it could work either way. but be consistent!!!!! the Ranger and psywarrior dont make sense in the middle bracket if rogue, fighter, pally, and monk are in the top, and the rogue and monk dont make sense on top while the ranger and psy-war are in the middle. so far, I think aminar's "point system" has the best idea, but I'd add BaB to it, too.
EvilVegan 03-04-06, 09:28 PM	Barbarians shouldn't be in the high armor category. They are designed to be hit. High hp, extra hp while raging, DR, lowered AC while raging, etc. They ARENT trained to dodge hits, they're specifically designed to get hit. If they have a high dex, then fine, they're naturally better at it, but it shouldn't be a part of their class benefits. They're already bad ass in combat. Rogues also are not trained in combat, they're trained in stealth. If they have a high dex, whoopity doo, they're better at dodging, but they aren't TRAINED in dodging single-attacks (but they are trained at dodging spells and area affects). But thats only if you're using the defense bonus to replace standard armor bonuses, which is what the UA is proposing. If you're trying to make things more sensible I'd make it this way: Excellent DEF: Monks (without wisdom/current dodge bonuses), TWF Ranger Reasoning: (Melee combatants with poor/no armor choices and low hp) Good DEF: Fighter, Paladin, Cleric Reasoning: (Melee combatants with heavy armor proficiency, but heavy martial training as well) Average: Rogues, Bards, Barbarians, druid, monk (with wisdom bonus), archery ranger Reasoning: (Either people who aren't supposed to be in melee taking hits, people who are wild and untrained, or those with special power from other sources such as natural armor while wildshaped or wisdom to ac for monk) Poor: Wizards, sorcerers, etc Reasoning: (People who aren't ever supposed to be in melee and have no martial training). Notice that I put archery rangers and TWF rangers in different categories, as well as wisdom bonus monks and non-wisdom bonus monks.