balanced gestalt characters [Archive] - Wizards Community

balanced gestalt characters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rochlar
08-05-06, 12:30 AM hi all, i am going to be starting a new game soon (as DM), and i am going to be using a few variants from UA, gestalt amongst them. i am going to use a kind of armor-as-dr system where you subtract your armor value (not nat. armor, but bracers) from any physical damage you take, and the damage that is subtracted is instead dealt as nonleathal damage. also, healing spells work on a 2-round time scale. so if you get healed for 110 hp, you would get 55hp on the round it was cast, and 55hp on the following round. fast healing is unchanged.

to the crux of my question: i would like to allow the players to play gestalt characters, but i have built most of the campaign already, and some of it is kinda finely tuned for a specific power level. i was thinking about using a mechanic similar to the bloodline levels, where you get a kind of sliding LA to keep you balanced with "normal" characters. so, what do you all think? is lvl 20 normal as good as lvl 17 gestalt? or does it need to be a total of 4 levels instead of 3? i am hesitant to go lower than lvl 16 w/+4 LA, but i will listen to opinions to the contrary.

as far as to when to apply the level penalties, i was thiinking i would just follow the progression from the bloodlines, that is 3rd, 6th, and 12th levels.

i also have some common ground rules for gestalt chars, and will explain them if asked, but they arent really HR's, just my interpetations of how gestalt works.

thanks for the input
smitipogra
08-05-06, 01:03 AM Rochlar, in UA the gestalt variant is meant for everything, not just the PC's. That ranges from the piddly Kobold warrior all the way up to the frightening Archmage. This is one reason I use this variant with moderation. My suggestion to keep the game balanced is to as I said and re-tool all bad guys as gestalt (and any peons just set up as something simple to reflect what they are meant to do.) Also, to keep the game balanced, do as the UA dictates and severely limit prestige classes. Some of them can rediculous in gestalt. (Although, let me tell you that a Rogue [max level]/Fighter [Lv. 5]/ Assassin [Max level minus 5] is an awesome challenge.) This is just my thoughts.

smitipogra :D
Rochlar
08-05-06, 01:12 AM i am aware of that, but monsters w/o class levels arent going to be affected by the fact that the pc's and npcs are now gestalt. as an aside (i guess i should have mentioned it earlier), in my game, only people who adventure (in some form) are gestalt. so the captian of the city guard would be gestalt, but the politician isnt. i know this is a slight difference, but it is the way i want my game to be. also, in most of the frontier areas, where the pc are going tro spend a lot of time, the "peasants" are gestalt expert (farming/animal husbandry)/ warriors, and are usually aroun lvl 3-5.

also, i didnt say before, but they are going to start aroun ECL 7 or 8, so im not too concerned if the power level is out of line for the first few levels.

thanks agian
Rochlar
08-05-06, 01:26 AM sorry about using two post to answer one, but i didnt finish reading yours before i rushed to defend my idea. i know about how abusive some of the combos cna get with gestalt, but i know my group fairly well, and as none of them has ever played gestalt before, im going to help each one individually make thier char, so i will have at least some direct control over the power level. this is actually to help out one of my players, who is a terminal case when it comes to min/maxing. i also have a few restrictions for casting preasige classes.

i have played in a couple of gestalt games before, so i have seen a few of the game-wrecking things that can be done, but as i said before, i have a group of friends to play with, and we generally try to avoid anything that would break the game for the rest of the group.
Rochlar
08-07-06, 01:08 AM i know most people dont care, but i really am looking for help with my question. c'mon, almost 50 people looked, but only 1 had any ideas at all?
Craith
08-07-06, 04:45 AM I'd use a LA of 2, since one Wiz 7 + one Ftr 7 would be CR 9, why should one Gestalt Wiz7/Ftr7 be more(he still has only one round of actions available, less hitpoints than both combined...).

Hope you understand what I try to say, sorry for my English

Craith
Rochlar
08-07-06, 07:39 PM i like what you are saying, but i think that a lvl 18 ftr/wiz gestalt may be a bit more powerful than a lvl 20 wiz or ftr. i looked at the table, and it essentially gives a +1 LA to start, and a +1 (additional) LA at lvl 6. i am still looking at probably doing another +1 LA at lvl 12 or 14, but im not sure.
1bent1
08-08-06, 02:52 AM Hi i hope to add my outlook into this in hopes to help, sorry for the length of response

Once you get up in levels gestalts increase in power diminishes, i mean an 18fighter/18wizard is hardly more powerful then a standard lvl 18wizard. and I pitey a lvl 18wizard/18cleric: there is not enough time in the day to cast hardly any other there spells. the character can still ony take the same amount of actions in a round as a regulart character.

I ran a campaing with 3 gestalt characters and I believe if you use some of the suggestion listed in the book, such as count the cr of creatures 2 less for the most part you be fine. Also I had only the pc's be gestalt, I did it as a background of being exceptional and I had no problems, no npc's were gestalt. The group stoped at lvl 15 the party consisted of a fighter15/rouge15, cleric 15/sorcerer6/dragon disiple9 and a ranger15/fighter5/order of the bow initiate10.

I once sent the group against non-gestalt drow and the drow beat the tar out of them i sent a lvl15drow cleric vs our cleric, it did not help our guy to be gestalt due to him never beating the SR of the drow. A 15 lvl drow black guard vs the ranger she just got eten up by the guys greatsword. and 3 lvl 11 fighter for the fighter/rouge. All 1vs1 (except the fighter/rouge encounter) and the drow were npc from the city of the spider queen adventure or from lords of darkness cant rember fully now but not tweaked at all.

Now our group was not power gamers but they had decent gear and great stats so results my vary.the only mishap as far as gestalt is they and i started doing saves incorrectly but that was part of the learning curve.
Rochlar
08-08-06, 09:47 AM im kinda suprised that worked with just a +2 adjustment. somehow i thought it would be higher. and i have already tweaked the game a little to eliminate most of the high-cr because of save-or-die monsters.thanks.
magmer2
08-08-06, 06:06 PM im kinda suprised that worked with just a +2 adjustment. somehow i thought it would be higher. and i have already tweaked the game a little to eliminate most of the high-cr because of save-or-die monsters.thanks.
The thing is that a gestalt wizard/cleric is slightly better than a wizard or cleric by it's self. Their not gonna cast destruction and weird in the same round, they can just last a little bit longer.
A fighter/warhulk/barbarian gestalt, however is much better than a normal fighter barbarian warhulk.
unundindur
08-09-06, 09:00 AM The thing is that a gestalt wizard/cleric is slightly better than a wizard or cleric by it's self. Their not gonna cast destruction and weird in the same round, they can just last a little bit longer.
A fighter/warhulk/barbarian gestalt, however is much better than a normal fighter barbarian warhulk.

Regarding caster gastalts I deem the ability to cast mid levle quickened spells and still have high level slots left to be the greatest gift. Furthermore some of the newer casting classes make for better gestalts (imo). A warmage/cleric with medium armor would be somewhat nasty, both heavy offense and very heavy defence.

If I ever were to play a gestalt it sure would be an assassin... Monk4/Rogue12/Assassin 8/Shadowlord of teflam6/Thief-acrobat 5/Occult slayer 5. Of course with the ascetic rogue feat and ability focus death attack etc etc.

Thats my 2 cent though.
archerpwr
08-09-06, 10:17 AM I'm in a gestalt campaign right now and iv seen that as in most things the players are only as powerful as you allow them to be when it comes to min/maxing (im playing a fighter rogue thats gunna be OotBI came up with idea on my own gunna pwn) and i am an unstoppable sneak attacking master while scorcoror cleric tends to get the crap beaten out of him cuz of action limit. So Gestalt is only overpowered when there are good min/maxers (me) who choose two classes that blend seamlessly for common actions (sneak attack and bow feats are great) so balance the encounters by trying to match the enemy somewhat close to the PCs in terms of caster, melee, ranged, tanks. PS anyone know of a good class to take as filler for a Master of Many Forms on other side of druid for first five lvls?
Goblinchaser
08-09-06, 07:53 PM As stated before I would not use level adjustments, I would instead adjust CR's of the encounters as suggested in the UA. Typical combinations truly only fill in the weakened areas of the other classes, such as poor saves and poor BAB. Beyond that, the Hit Points are never more than a barbarian or fighter, the character is still limited in the number of actions and there is no boosts to caster levels, as such a Gestault Wizard/Fighter 5th level can through no better of a fireball than a standard wizard of 5th level, and just as often. The gestalt can just take them better.

I would caution with the PrCs, as already stated, IMO gestalt is already tweaked to fit a concept and would probably not allow it and limit the combo's. Going for a martial Prestige, gestalt with a martial class, like wise with Arcane or divine PrCs. You would also have the option of tweaking current PrCs to already encompass the gestault feel, such as combining a Archmage with Fighter to create a variation of Arch-warwizard.

Use of other options in UA can help balance the extra umph, such as wounds and Vitality variant. Using a standard Point buy will aid greatly as well.
jagggar
08-09-06, 10:26 PM If I ever were to play a gestalt it sure would be an assassin... Monk4/Rogue12/Assassin 8/Shadowlord of teflam6/Thief-acrobat 5/Occult slayer 5. Of course with the ascetic rogue feat and ability focus death attack etc etc. Nice. How are you going to pull that build off when gestalt rules state that you may not have PrCs on both sides of the Gestalt at once?
JaronK
08-10-06, 04:01 AM First of all, the biggest mistake most GMs make with Gestalt is killing off the whole party due to overestimation. Gestalts are nowhere near as strong as many people think. For example, that cleric/warmage would be crappy as all heck, needing wisdom, int, and charisma, where a normal cleric can dump the latter two stats. As a result, he doesn't cast as well as either a cleric or a warmage, as he's more easily resisted, and while he's got more spells to cast, in any one round he really can't do more than a cleric or a warmage could.

So.

Just lower the CRs of all enemies by 1, and if they rely on effects that force saves, lower it by 2. Go from there. If your players haven't been gestalt before, they won't be very impressive... some may even be weaker than normal characters (like the cleric/warmage). If they're experienced, they may use stronger builds (druid/cloistered cleric, wizard/archivist, etc.), so they'll nastier challenges.

JaronK
OgreMonk
08-20-06, 01:19 PM PS anyone know of a good class to take as filler for a Master of Many Forms on other side of druid for first five lvls?

I would take fighter, the feats and BAB bonus come in handy when engaged in melee while shapeshifting.
chava
08-24-06, 09:12 PM I'm running a game with gestalt characters and for the most part they can hand out more damage level by level, but they can't take any more damage...

Mostly just fear the players who decide to combo monk with... well, just about anything.

Scariest combo I've seen in action is the monk/paladin. Let them get to be about 12th level and add Rhino's Rush to the feat that does double damage on a charge and it's just scary.
Legdiwena
08-27-06, 02:21 PM monk/cleric or monk/sorc

like books says stunning fist with cause greater wounds attached to it

or monk with fighter bab
scienceman47
08-27-06, 11:59 PM Monk paladin is one of the weaker gestalts available.

When you gestalt, you want to minimize MAD (multiple ability dependency), prevent ability overlap, and ensure armor compatibility.

THe monk paladin has a 5 point MAD and contradictory armor requirements. The mount and remove disease are equally useless.

In contrast, a monk cleric would have opposing armor requirements, but complimentary stats. Its not the best combo out there, but your stunning fist, AC, and save DCs all get better with wisdom.

The monk Arcane caster has terrible MAD, but defensive abilities that mesh well, and armor(less) compatability. Feats exist that remove some of the MAD, and ignoring the melee aspects in tandem with the aformentioned feats can reduce it to 3 point.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rochlar 08-05-06, 12:30 AM	hi all, i am going to be starting a new game soon (as DM), and i am going to be using a few variants from UA, gestalt amongst them. i am going to use a kind of armor-as-dr system where you subtract your armor value (not nat. armor, but bracers) from any physical damage you take, and the damage that is subtracted is instead dealt as nonleathal damage. also, healing spells work on a 2-round time scale. so if you get healed for 110 hp, you would get 55hp on the round it was cast, and 55hp on the following round. fast healing is unchanged. to the crux of my question: i would like to allow the players to play gestalt characters, but i have built most of the campaign already, and some of it is kinda finely tuned for a specific power level. i was thinking about using a mechanic similar to the bloodline levels, where you get a kind of sliding LA to keep you balanced with "normal" characters. so, what do you all think? is lvl 20 normal as good as lvl 17 gestalt? or does it need to be a total of 4 levels instead of 3? i am hesitant to go lower than lvl 16 w/+4 LA, but i will listen to opinions to the contrary. as far as to when to apply the level penalties, i was thiinking i would just follow the progression from the bloodlines, that is 3rd, 6th, and 12th levels. i also have some common ground rules for gestalt chars, and will explain them if asked, but they arent really HR's, just my interpetations of how gestalt works. thanks for the input
smitipogra 08-05-06, 01:03 AM	Rochlar, in UA the gestalt variant is meant for everything, not just the PC's. That ranges from the piddly Kobold warrior all the way up to the frightening Archmage. This is one reason I use this variant with moderation. My suggestion to keep the game balanced is to as I said and re-tool all bad guys as gestalt (and any peons just set up as something simple to reflect what they are meant to do.) Also, to keep the game balanced, do as the UA dictates and severely limit prestige classes. Some of them can rediculous in gestalt. (Although, let me tell you that a Rogue [max level]/Fighter [Lv. 5]/ Assassin [Max level minus 5] is an awesome challenge.) This is just my thoughts. smitipogra :D
Rochlar 08-05-06, 01:12 AM	i am aware of that, but monsters w/o class levels arent going to be affected by the fact that the pc's and npcs are now gestalt. as an aside (i guess i should have mentioned it earlier), in my game, only people who adventure (in some form) are gestalt. so the captian of the city guard would be gestalt, but the politician isnt. i know this is a slight difference, but it is the way i want my game to be. also, in most of the frontier areas, where the pc are going tro spend a lot of time, the "peasants" are gestalt expert (farming/animal husbandry)/ warriors, and are usually aroun lvl 3-5. also, i didnt say before, but they are going to start aroun ECL 7 or 8, so im not too concerned if the power level is out of line for the first few levels. thanks agian
Rochlar 08-05-06, 01:26 AM	sorry about using two post to answer one, but i didnt finish reading yours before i rushed to defend my idea. i know about how abusive some of the combos cna get with gestalt, but i know my group fairly well, and as none of them has ever played gestalt before, im going to help each one individually make thier char, so i will have at least some direct control over the power level. this is actually to help out one of my players, who is a terminal case when it comes to min/maxing. i also have a few restrictions for casting preasige classes. i have played in a couple of gestalt games before, so i have seen a few of the game-wrecking things that can be done, but as i said before, i have a group of friends to play with, and we generally try to avoid anything that would break the game for the rest of the group.
Rochlar 08-07-06, 01:08 AM	i know most people dont care, but i really am looking for help with my question. c'mon, almost 50 people looked, but only 1 had any ideas at all?
Craith 08-07-06, 04:45 AM	I'd use a LA of 2, since one Wiz 7 + one Ftr 7 would be CR 9, why should one Gestalt Wiz7/Ftr7 be more(he still has only one round of actions available, less hitpoints than both combined...). Hope you understand what I try to say, sorry for my English Craith
Rochlar 08-07-06, 07:39 PM	i like what you are saying, but i think that a lvl 18 ftr/wiz gestalt may be a bit more powerful than a lvl 20 wiz or ftr. i looked at the table, and it essentially gives a +1 LA to start, and a +1 (additional) LA at lvl 6. i am still looking at probably doing another +1 LA at lvl 12 or 14, but im not sure.
1bent1 08-08-06, 02:52 AM	Hi i hope to add my outlook into this in hopes to help, sorry for the length of response Once you get up in levels gestalts increase in power diminishes, i mean an 18fighter/18wizard is hardly more powerful then a standard lvl 18wizard. and I pitey a lvl 18wizard/18cleric: there is not enough time in the day to cast hardly any other there spells. the character can still ony take the same amount of actions in a round as a regulart character. I ran a campaing with 3 gestalt characters and I believe if you use some of the suggestion listed in the book, such as count the cr of creatures 2 less for the most part you be fine. Also I had only the pc's be gestalt, I did it as a background of being exceptional and I had no problems, no npc's were gestalt. The group stoped at lvl 15 the party consisted of a fighter15/rouge15, cleric 15/sorcerer6/dragon disiple9 and a ranger15/fighter5/order of the bow initiate10. I once sent the group against non-gestalt drow and the drow beat the tar out of them i sent a lvl15drow cleric vs our cleric, it did not help our guy to be gestalt due to him never beating the SR of the drow. A 15 lvl drow black guard vs the ranger she just got eten up by the guys greatsword. and 3 lvl 11 fighter for the fighter/rouge. All 1vs1 (except the fighter/rouge encounter) and the drow were npc from the city of the spider queen adventure or from lords of darkness cant rember fully now but not tweaked at all. Now our group was not power gamers but they had decent gear and great stats so results my vary.the only mishap as far as gestalt is they and i started doing saves incorrectly but that was part of the learning curve.
Rochlar 08-08-06, 09:47 AM	im kinda suprised that worked with just a +2 adjustment. somehow i thought it would be higher. and i have already tweaked the game a little to eliminate most of the high-cr because of save-or-die monsters.thanks.
magmer2 08-08-06, 06:06 PM	im kinda suprised that worked with just a +2 adjustment. somehow i thought it would be higher. and i have already tweaked the game a little to eliminate most of the high-cr because of save-or-die monsters.thanks. The thing is that a gestalt wizard/cleric is slightly better than a wizard or cleric by it's self. Their not gonna cast destruction and weird in the same round, they can just last a little bit longer. A fighter/warhulk/barbarian gestalt, however is much better than a normal fighter barbarian warhulk.
unundindur 08-09-06, 09:00 AM	The thing is that a gestalt wizard/cleric is slightly better than a wizard or cleric by it's self. Their not gonna cast destruction and weird in the same round, they can just last a little bit longer. A fighter/warhulk/barbarian gestalt, however is much better than a normal fighter barbarian warhulk. Regarding caster gastalts I deem the ability to cast mid levle quickened spells and still have high level slots left to be the greatest gift. Furthermore some of the newer casting classes make for better gestalts (imo). A warmage/cleric with medium armor would be somewhat nasty, both heavy offense and very heavy defence. If I ever were to play a gestalt it sure would be an assassin... Monk4/Rogue12/Assassin 8/Shadowlord of teflam6/Thief-acrobat 5/Occult slayer 5. Of course with the ascetic rogue feat and ability focus death attack etc etc. Thats my 2 cent though.
archerpwr 08-09-06, 10:17 AM	I'm in a gestalt campaign right now and iv seen that as in most things the players are only as powerful as you allow them to be when it comes to min/maxing (im playing a fighter rogue thats gunna be OotBI came up with idea on my own gunna pwn) and i am an unstoppable sneak attacking master while scorcoror cleric tends to get the crap beaten out of him cuz of action limit. So Gestalt is only overpowered when there are good min/maxers (me) who choose two classes that blend seamlessly for common actions (sneak attack and bow feats are great) so balance the encounters by trying to match the enemy somewhat close to the PCs in terms of caster, melee, ranged, tanks. PS anyone know of a good class to take as filler for a Master of Many Forms on other side of druid for first five lvls?
Goblinchaser 08-09-06, 07:53 PM	As stated before I would not use level adjustments, I would instead adjust CR's of the encounters as suggested in the UA. Typical combinations truly only fill in the weakened areas of the other classes, such as poor saves and poor BAB. Beyond that, the Hit Points are never more than a barbarian or fighter, the character is still limited in the number of actions and there is no boosts to caster levels, as such a Gestault Wizard/Fighter 5th level can through no better of a fireball than a standard wizard of 5th level, and just as often. The gestalt can just take them better. I would caution with the PrCs, as already stated, IMO gestalt is already tweaked to fit a concept and would probably not allow it and limit the combo's. Going for a martial Prestige, gestalt with a martial class, like wise with Arcane or divine PrCs. You would also have the option of tweaking current PrCs to already encompass the gestault feel, such as combining a Archmage with Fighter to create a variation of Arch-warwizard. Use of other options in UA can help balance the extra umph, such as wounds and Vitality variant. Using a standard Point buy will aid greatly as well.
jagggar 08-09-06, 10:26 PM	If I ever were to play a gestalt it sure would be an assassin... Monk4/Rogue12/Assassin 8/Shadowlord of teflam6/Thief-acrobat 5/Occult slayer 5. Of course with the ascetic rogue feat and ability focus death attack etc etc. Nice. How are you going to pull that build off when gestalt rules state that you may not have PrCs on both sides of the Gestalt at once?
JaronK 08-10-06, 04:01 AM	First of all, the biggest mistake most GMs make with Gestalt is killing off the whole party due to overestimation. Gestalts are nowhere near as strong as many people think. For example, that cleric/warmage would be crappy as all heck, needing wisdom, int, and charisma, where a normal cleric can dump the latter two stats. As a result, he doesn't cast as well as either a cleric or a warmage, as he's more easily resisted, and while he's got more spells to cast, in any one round he really can't do more than a cleric or a warmage could. So. Just lower the CRs of all enemies by 1, and if they rely on effects that force saves, lower it by 2. Go from there. If your players haven't been gestalt before, they won't be very impressive... some may even be weaker than normal characters (like the cleric/warmage). If they're experienced, they may use stronger builds (druid/cloistered cleric, wizard/archivist, etc.), so they'll nastier challenges. JaronK
OgreMonk 08-20-06, 01:19 PM	PS anyone know of a good class to take as filler for a Master of Many Forms on other side of druid for first five lvls? I would take fighter, the feats and BAB bonus come in handy when engaged in melee while shapeshifting.
chava 08-24-06, 09:12 PM	I'm running a game with gestalt characters and for the most part they can hand out more damage level by level, but they can't take any more damage... Mostly just fear the players who decide to combo monk with... well, just about anything. Scariest combo I've seen in action is the monk/paladin. Let them get to be about 12th level and add Rhino's Rush to the feat that does double damage on a charge and it's just scary.
Legdiwena 08-27-06, 02:21 PM	monk/cleric or monk/sorc like books says stunning fist with cause greater wounds attached to it or monk with fighter bab
scienceman47 08-27-06, 11:59 PM	Monk paladin is one of the weaker gestalts available. When you gestalt, you want to minimize MAD (multiple ability dependency), prevent ability overlap, and ensure armor compatibility. THe monk paladin has a 5 point MAD and contradictory armor requirements. The mount and remove disease are equally useless. In contrast, a monk cleric would have opposing armor requirements, but complimentary stats. Its not the best combo out there, but your stunning fist, AC, and save DCs all get better with wisdom. The monk Arcane caster has terrible MAD, but defensive abilities that mesh well, and armor(less) compatability. Feats exist that remove some of the MAD, and ignoring the melee aspects in tandem with the aformentioned feats can reduce it to 3 point.