Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nathreet 02-16-08, 04:55 PM	One guy asked me for this, so I thought I'd make it available to everyone. These tables let you take away the magic items from a fighter/ranger/barbarian/paladin/rogue and maybe cleric PC, while keeping his power up to par with standard CR enemies. Basically I give him the bonuses that he would have gotten from magic items, as-stolen from some optimized builds. Sorry, I don't have a monk table. You need to at least lower the AC bonus for a monk or he'll be as imbalanced as a VOP monk. It should cap at ~+10/+11. Weapon bonuses should not apply to an unarmed monk. For a class that's only partly martial, I'd bump him down X levels and make up the difference in value elsewhere (per wealth per level table). Even at full level, the table leaves 14k for boots of speed (haste) and 2k in misc gear. If you see a bonus go down, I'd use this same (lower) bonus on previous levels. This represents the real-game impossibility of selling at full and buying something else. Basically I have a fully optimized sword-and-board fighter, a TWF and a THF. You simply take the bonuses from magic items, and apply them to your non-magic PCs. It's based on core magic items and wealth per level tables. It's done for a fighter/barbarian, but pretty much the same applies to any martial-focused class. The tables assume 25%-50% of enemy attacks ignore AC. Above ~60%, the amount of AC items used drops dramatically (all of the sudden, at some cutoff point). Same goes for a very stealthy (practically invisible) rogue. There are 5 columns you need from these tables to boost your low magic PCs: Str: Subtract 4 at level 1, subtract +5 at level 8, subtract +6 at level 16. This is the enhancement bonus to strength. For a ranged character use the THF table and apply to dex instead. For a weapon finesse character use the appropriate table and apply to dex. Con: Subtract 3. This is the enhancement bonus to constitution. Weapon: Subtract 1. This is the number of d6's of bonus damage from enchantments. This damage is not multiplied by crits and certain types don't affect certain enemies. So what you do with this number is up to you. AC: This is the magical bonus to AC. At early levels it's mostly armor enhancement bonus - low/no touch AC bonus - while at level 20 all except the +5 armor & +5 shield AC goes to touch AC. Save: Resistance bonus to saves. Here are the tables: http://www.geocities.com/ericjgrau/tweaker6-SWF.gif http://www.geocities.com/ericjgrau/tweaker6-TWF.gif http://www.geocities.com/ericjgrau/tweaker6-THF.gif
Tequila_Sunrise 02-16-08, 07:26 PM	Your goal is admirable...but I'm thoroughly confused by your charts. I prefer something simpler (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=988664). (Character Points, page 31) TS
Nathreet 02-17-08, 11:41 AM	Ok, here's the simple version. In a low magic item campaign, apply the following bonuses to all martial classes to keep things balanced with the PC wealth by level table: strength OR dex (enhancement bonus): +2 at level 8, +4 at level 12, +6 at level 16 constitution (enhancement bonus): +2 at level 10, +6 at level 16 AC w/ shield (levels 1-20): +0, +0, +0, +2, +2, +2, +2, +4, +6, +8, +9, +11, +12, +14, +15, +16, +16, +16, +16, +17 AC w/o shield(levels 1-20): +0, +0, +0, +1, +1, +2, +2, +3, +5, +6, +6, +8, +9, +10, +11, +11, +11, +11, +11, +11 damage w/ 1 weapon (levels 11-20): +1d6, +2d6, +2d6, +3d6, +3d6, +4d6, +7d6, +9d6, +9d6, +9d6 damage w/ 2 weapons (levels 11-20): +1d6, +1d6, +1d6, +2d6, +2d6, +3d6, +5d6, +6d6, +8d6, +9d6 Saves (resistance bonus mostly, levels 11-20): +1, +1, +1, +3, +3, +4, +4, +6, +7, +7 Other: Haste ability at level 7, free action activation, max 10 rounds per day. Rounds need not be consecutive. Crits do not multiply bonus damage. At levels 18-20, martial characters should also get boosts from other sources (wishes to boost stats, etc.). The main advantage of this system over others is that it is fully balanced with core, related campaigns, etc., etc. You still need to balance caster and semi-martial classes some other way. I'd use the wealth per level tables and give them the abilities of must-have magic items costing this amount. As part of that you could give them the above martial bonuses, based on their BAB instead of their level. Simply subtract off the wealth-per-level at level=BAB to figure out the cost of the above bonuses.
Tequila_Sunrise 02-17-08, 10:38 PM	Mmm...still confused. I think the problem is that you're basing these numbers on "optimized builds", which I and many players barely know the meaning of. Also these numbers appear very vague and arbitrary; why do some start at 1st level while others not until 11th? Your formatting is confusing and you seem to be assuming that other DMs are on the same page as you are. For example you say the save bonuses are mostly resistance...well okay does that mean the others are luck? Unamed? Divine? Finally, and I can't speak for others, but I hate bonuses that don't follow an obvious consistent pattern, which is the case with these. Also, what about caster classes? Do they get only some of these bonuses, or none at all? I don't like either way; even if you subscribe to the notion that casters are inherently better than non-casters, they are still assumed to have similar bonuses under the CR/WBL system. Hope that helps, TS
Nathreet 02-18-08, 12:51 AM	Meh, don't be nit picky. The bonuses come from a fighter with a well optimized array of magic items. The cost of these magic items add up to match the wealth per level guidelines, minus 2000gp set aside for misc gear. It's a coincidence that both damage and saves start at level 11. If you want to DM with these bonuses in your campaign then feel free to adjust them at will. Save bonuses: You could assume that all 7 were resistance and it wouldn't really matter. FWIW and IIRC the 6th +1 comes from luck and the 7th +1 comes from insight. The other 5 are resistance. As stated, these bonuses are for martial classes only and you'll need to come up with something else for caster classes.
kuonji 02-18-08, 04:49 AM	Is this based on core classes only? I have to agree with Tequila_Sunrise on the random nature of the bonuses. There seems to be very little pattern to your assigning bonuses and it's hard to understand where each bonus comes from. You'll probably consider the next section to be nit-picky, but I'm having a hard time understanding where you are coming up with these bonuses. On the Str/Dex modifier: Do I choose a stat and that stat goes up at 8/12/16 or can I choose, for example, Str at 8, Dex at 12, then Str again at 16? If just one stat, why only one? The con adjustment seems kind of arbitrary. Why 2 at 10 and 6 at 16 with nothing before or between? I assume the AC bonus is derived from some combination of deflection bonus, armor enhancement, shield enhancement, and natural armor, however I think the bonus advancement could be smoothed out somewhat with out compromising the overall progression. Also, something not covered, how much of this bonus applies to touch AC? Flat footed AC? Does any of it count as a force effect for protection from certain types of attack? And, one last question, what counts as a shield, anything from buckler to tower? I can't figure out where you are coming up with the damage bonuses for weapons, so some explanation of that would be helpful. Does the damage bonus for 2 weapons apply to each weapon? What if I'm wielding 2 weapons but only attack with one, what modifier applies? Does the damage stack with sneak attack damage? I think the save modifiers should probably start sooner. A +1 resistance item is dirt cheap and is often easily attainable at lower levels. The free haste ability seems sort of random. I think a better idea might be a list of abilities that a player can choose from. Not everyone focuses on haste; for example, a rogue player might like an ability that allows him to turn invisible a number of rounds per day. Overall this looks like you've taken your or your groups opinion of what constitutes an "optimized" melee character, stripped off the typical bonuses that you/your group uses, and turned them into somewhat random tables with very little in the way of explanation about how you came up with the numbers in the tables. Perhaps you weren't actually looking for feedback about the system and maybe this works well for you and your group, but you can't blame some of us for being curious about how the system came about and how it works. And one final comment: As stated, these bonuses are for martial classes only and you'll need to come up with something else for caster classes. Since this is your system, shouldn't you be providing such numbers/compensations?
Nathreet 02-18-08, 11:02 AM	By paragraph. Please read more than you write next time, not vice-versa, and there will be less misunderstanding. 1. This is based on core magic items only. I got similar results for a variety of martial classes, so it could probably apply to non-core martial classes. 3. For the 3rd time, the bonuses come from magic items purchased via the wealth per level guidelines. They're far from arbitrary, they come from several days (weaks?) of tweaking to produce a good combatant in an optimizer/battle-simulator I programmed. The idea is if you apply the same bonuses to a player w/o magic items he will be just as strong and just as balanced. 4. You may choose one stat only, whichever is better for your character. 5. See #3. 6. Yes, see #3. Yes, as stated in previous post if you DM with these feel free to smooth them out or adjust them at will. Just don't stray too far or it may become unbalanced. The AC bonuses are armor/shield enhancement, deflection and insight (?, I forget). So in the end +5 is armor, +5 is shield, +5 is deflection and +2 is something else. I was thinking of breaking down touch/flat-footed level by level, and maybe I'll do that. Or maybe you could make something up. 7. From damage enchantments. So using these against energy/etc. resistant enemies may cause issues. 8. See #3. Save bonuses were optimized for 25-50% magical attacks and 50-75% physical. The optimizer found that +1 to saves didn't help very much, so it doesn't add them in until they cost next to nothing. Assuming 75% magical attacks the saves start a little earlier, but even then the emphasis shifts more to the weapon and stat bonuses. 9. See #1, #3, previous comments on martial vs. non-martial classes. Boots of speed (haste) tested extremely well in the optimizer, whereas blink ring, displacement cloak, etc. did not. 7th level is when you can afford it. And I went through every core magic item. Yes, every one. 10. See #3.
Nathreet 02-18-08, 11:47 AM	There's an underlying issue here that needs to be addressed. These are internet forums, where people post random ideas and other people make random comments on those ideas. After all, one person's opinion is as good as another. These charts are not random ideas thought up on a whim, they are carefully planned, balanced and ready to be used in a campaign. As you can guess I get a bit annoyed when someone says, "Nah, I think this is better" on a whim without much reason. I had a similar issue when first posting my optimized fighter build. People would say, "N'uh, I can make a monk with 12 attacks or a THF that will do more damage." The build fought and creamed the two, b/c unlike them it was well rounded so it could hit, got a decent number of attacks, do good damage and avoid damage all at the same time. Finally people got the idea and took my build, added one magic item I didn't notice when reading the items, and beat it. This is the wonderful way equal minds can colloborate on the web and improve things bit by bit, rather than posting a series of arbitrary/random opinions like the 50 page fighter threads we get. EDIT: Checking back at this dead thread. Maybe I need more tact, or maybe I should just let people post random stuff without saying anything. I mean, most people are probably online at their leisure, why make it a chore?