Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Banpai 03-13-04, 08:04 PM	I am currently preparing a new campaign and want to use some variant rules from unerthed arcana for them together with my own housrules. The problem I have is that I´m really not shure if they are balanced and fair so I post them here so you guys can give me your oppinions: I use the Gestalt variant rule for the PCs which will let everyone be a caster(I request from each of them to build a character with at least 1 level of spellcasting).In this campaign Gestalt are rare and to become one you have get a special training(all the PCs share a the common backround that they have been raised by a somehow mysterious mercenary organisation with clouded memory of their childhod (a mix between FF7and8 which defines the whole campagin)). Together with this I use a variant XP table for the Gestats (for the case that one of the players really really does not want to play a Gestalt and for NPCs)the table has been made by ertai planeswalker in commes from the The Gestalt campagin thread here´s a link http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186820&perpage=30&pagenumber=1 Experience table including Gestalt characters: Lvl: Normal: Gestalt: 2 1000 1500 3 3000 4500 4 6000 9000 5 10000 15000 (Non-Gestalts are now 1 level ahead) 6 15000 22500 7 21000 31500 8 28000 42000 9 36000 54000 10 45000 67500 (Non-Gestalts are now 2 levels ahead) 11 55000 77500 12 66000 99000 13 78000 117000 14 91000 136500 (Non-Gestalts are now 3 levels ahead) 15 105000 157500 16 120000 180000 17 136000 204000 (Non-Gestalts are now 4 levels ahead, and Epic) 18 153000 229500 19 171000 256500 20 190000 285000 -----------------Epic------------------ 21 210000 315000 22 231000 346500 23 253000 379500 24 276000 414000 (Non-Gestalts are now 5 level ahead) 25 300000 450000 26 326000 489000 27 352000 528000 28 380000 570000 (Non-Gestalts are now 6 levels ahead) 29 409000 613500 30 438000 657000 31 468000 702000 32 500000 750000 (Non-Gestalts are now 7 levels ahead) 33 532000 798000 34 565000 847500 35 599000 898500 36 634000 951000 37 670000 1005000 38 707000 1060500 39 745000 1117500 40 784000 1176000 I use the following (slightly changed) houserules from THE Simbul regarding the sorcerer *remove the Summon Familiar class feature. or *grant Eschew Materials as a virtual feat at first level, but restricted to the casting of Sorcerer spells. * 4 +Int modifier skill points per level. *Intimidate and Use Magic Device as class skills. *gains a bonus to Use Magic Device checks equal to 1/2 her class level. *inability to use Spell Trigger or Spell Completion items unless the spells are among the Sorcerer's repetoire of known spells, however the Sorcerer may attempt a Use Magic Device check to properly utilize such an item. this rule is use for casters with a list of spell known *gains bonus known spells based upon her natural Charisma (or Wis in the case of evangelist)score, excluding Charisma bonuses or penatlies from spells, magic items, supernatural effects, or other non-permanent ability score adjustments. For each bonus spell per day, the Sorcerer gains a known spell of that spell level (to balance this with respect to other fixed-known-spells classes, Bards would also gain bonus known spells based upon their Charisma score, and Wizards would gain bonus free-research spells based upon their INT score in addition to the two free spells per Wizard level). I allow standart Wizard, the domain wizard(without bonus feats, familiar and scribe scroll) and specialists. daily spell list variant with one exeption: a caster may only prepare a spell for each spell slot he would normaly have, so you cannot prepare more spells if you have masses of bonus spells. A specialist or domain wizard has to prepare at least one spell from his specialized school or domain. all classes recieve 2 more skillpoints per level and on free class skill based on character (roleplaying reasons) buying of LA from UA without changes a variant of the class defense bonus system The AC bonus changes from an armor bonus to a dodge bonus and no more than the armors max dex can be added to AC in that way. Fighter+6 Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger +5 Cleric, Druid and Rogue +4 and Sorcerer, Wizard and Monk +3 I created a feat for this: Armor adaption [General,Fighter] reqirements: BAB +8 for the first time taken and +3 BAB for every feat taken after the first time Benefit: You can use heavier armor than usuall, menas your max armor dex is increased by one for the purpose of adding Defense bonus to AC level Defense bonus increase +6 +5 +4 +3 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 3 1 1 1 1 4 2 1 1 1 5 2 2 1 1 6 2 2 2 1 7 2 2 2 1 8 3 2 2 2 9 3 3 2 2 10 3 3 2 2 11 4 3 3 2 12 4 3 3 2 13 4 4 3 2 14 4 4 3 2 15 5 4 3 3 16 5 4 4 3 17 5 5 4 3 18 6 5 4 3 19 6 5 4 3 20 6 5 4 3 21 6 6 5 3 My system is based upon BAB too though i though a Fighter deserves to get the best. The system is for a mid magic and mid armor campaign and chause the system presented in UA which is still great for armorless campaigns I though that thisone fits what my players want. Well thats it I think. To everyone who has actually read this long post thx for it. Reply would be really great, especially reagarding non spellcasting classes chause I think I have weakened them too much with my changes(maybe giving bonus feats to them ?) Thx in advance for reply (sorry for my bad english tonight) ;)
Masterful_Norg 03-14-04, 11:27 AM	Experience table including Gestalt characters: Lvl: Normal: Gestalt: 2 1000 1500 3 3000 4500 4 6000 9000 5 10000 15000 (Non-Gestalts are now 1 level ahead) 6 15000 22500 7 21000 31500 8 28000 42000 9 36000 54000 10 45000 67500 (Non-Gestalts are now 2 levels ahead) 11 55000 77500 12 66000 99000 13 78000 117000 14 91000 136500 (Non-Gestalts are now 3 levels ahead) 15 105000 157500 16 120000 180000 17 136000 204000 (Non-Gestalts are now 4 levels ahead, and Epic) 18 153000 229500 19 171000 256500 20 190000 285000 -----------------Epic------------------ 21 210000 315000 22 231000 346500 23 253000 379500 24 276000 414000 (Non-Gestalts are now 5 level ahead) 25 300000 450000 26 326000 489000 27 352000 528000 28 380000 570000 (Non-Gestalts are now 6 levels ahead) 29 409000 613500 30 438000 657000 31 468000 702000 32 500000 750000 (Non-Gestalts are now 7 levels ahead) 33 532000 798000 34 565000 847500 35 599000 898500 36 634000 951000 37 670000 1005000 38 707000 1060500 39 745000 1117500 40 784000 1176000 There you go. The "CODE" button is actually a # button next to the PHP button. That's the one you want to use for tables. My suggestion to you is to give the non-casting classes such as the fighter and barbarian, spells starting at about 7th level. Their spells should include but not be limited to those from the war and strength domains for the fighter and the strength and chaos domain for the barbarian. You would have to think of which spells you wanted to give to their lists because domains don't have nearly enough. I would make Barabarians cast using wisdom and fighters using charisma. Perhaps they wouldn't have spell lists of their own, but instead be able to learn spells that they read, or experience (in the case of illiterate barbarians). I hope that helps you out somewhat. That is how I personally want to handle the inequities between the classes. I also happen to like recharge magic, you must obey recharge magic!
Pystian 03-14-04, 12:06 PM	Hmm... I don´t have much experience with Gestalt of course, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but since people generally say a Gestalt level is worth a normal level and a half (since you´re not getting HD, BAB, etc.), shouldn´t that be reflected with levels themselves rather than experience points? A fifth level Gestalt, for instance, should be able to ruin a normal sixth level character. Again, I don´t have much experience, and Gestalt are difficult to balance in this way in the first place, but I´d expect a 14th level or so Gestalt character to be the equivalent of a 21st level normal character.
Illithidbix 03-14-04, 12:58 PM	Well you could give it a try, however I would advise against trying to balance things too much before actually playing, in my view it is often hard to gauge power without any actual playtesting, I would suggest you attempt to balance it more during the campaign. I would make it very clear to your players that this is the case and that their characters abilities could change during the campaign, I would even go as far as to talk with them for a few minutes after each session to ask them about how they feel the campaign is going, esp in reference to the rules (feedback is always very important). I spent a year-long campaign playing with my DM’s variant Psionic rules (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=241451post2414501) and they changed quite rapidly over time, and we spent time discussing balance and stuff., although it meant that my characters abilities changed rather drastically (I got rather nerfed in combat situations at one point due to removing a over effective (and boring) ability), it was ultimately rewarding. Clerics for example appear on paper to be far more powerful than the other classes, however actually playing a D&D game it quickly becomes apparent that since they spend so much of their time just keeping the rest of the party members alive they're really not unbalanced at all. I would question exactly what is meant by “balance” as well, people have very different ideas about it. For many people it seems to be purely to do with how characters compare in a straight fight, applied in a competitive game (i.e one side has a definite advantage), this is not the way I like to play D&D, as it is meant to be a role-playing game after all. It's not like the players are in competition with each other, and the DM has absolute rule-breaking power anyway. I would rather has something be slightly "overpowered" but more fun to play than have it more “balanced” yet not be as fun, although of course the enjoyment of other players also need to be considered. For me the only real case of brokenness is one character to be able to do just about everything another character can do, except even more competently, meaning that the player of the weaker character has less enjoyable time as his “role” is taken by the other. So in my view a class is only really broken in D&D if it makes something else completely redundant by being better at that things “role” and/or achieving the same thing yet not receiving as many penalties. For example a new class created that was identical to the fighter class, yet had D12 hitdice would be broken as they make the fighter class redundant, being able to do everything a fighter can do and equally well, except have another advantage as well. As for being overpowered (which isn't as bad as brokeness by my definiton), well a similar principle, I tend not to try to create absolute balance or just be willing to change rules if you don't agree with them (which many DM's seem strangely reluctant to do at all). In this case I can see a big problem with Gestalt Characters mixing with regular class characters, as they are specifically designed to mix several party roles into a single character, therefore stepping on the toes of the “pure-class” party members, meaning they have nothing to do except support the Gesalts.
Banpai 03-15-04, 05:22 PM	Illithidbix, Pystian and Masterful_Norg I thank you for your reply. @Masterful_Norg nice idea but my players unfortunately dislike the idea of magical barbarians and fighters, so I have to find another way to handle it. Nontheless a good idea (though giving them spell like abilties like heroism and true strike might be the way to go). @Pystian: While I agree with you that a level 5 Gestalt should beat a level 6 normal char whithout much problems a level 21 normal char has really no problems to deal with a level 14 gestalt @Illithidbix: Those were very wise words and I thank you for them and will follow your advice.