Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Banpai 05-06-04, 09:11 AM	I need help Now after this statement you deserve to know what my problem is: I am going to use the daily spelllist variant from UA page 153 This variant makes the sorcerer definetly much worse and one more spell per day is defintely not a solution for me and my group. My campaign happens to be in the Forgotten Realms and Wizards have fairly easy access to spells. I currently use the following changes to the sorcerer devised first by The simbul; i consider them to balance the sorcerer with the wizard fairly well: remove familliar grand eschew material as virtual bonus feat (works for sorcerer spells only) 4+int skill points per level inability to use spell completion items if the spells(s) are not on the list of the sorcerers spells known Intimidate and Use Magic devise are added to the sorcerers class skills the sorcerer gains a bonus to Use Magic device checks equal to one-half their class level sorcerers gain bonus spells known base upon their natural Charisma score, excluding Charisma bonuses of penailities from spells, magic items, superatural effects, or other non-permanent ability score adjustments. For each bonus spell per day, the Sorcerer gains a known spell of that level (to balance this with respect to other fixed-known-spells classes, Bards would also gains bonus spells known basen on their natural charisma score and Wizards gain bonus free-research spells based upon their INt score) using quicken spells does not increase the casting time of spells for sorcerers but you still cant use quicken spell and other metamagic feat on the same spell While these changes my look strong I consider them to be balanced.(BTW thx to The Simbul for these great ideas) Any help or piece of information; oppionion would be very nice Thx in advance to all posters
hwkies 05-08-04, 01:29 PM	I really like the proposed changes, especially with skills. I already have many of these in my home game. I would strongly suggest to reconsider the extra spells bit. Sorcs get to cast a who bunch of extra spells at the cost of one spell level as well as known spells. He can overcome the lack of spells known with the following, Arcane Preperation and Extra Spell feats. Both will help with the lack of access to spells. Also, consider either granting the use magic device as a class skill or granting a bonus based on sorc. level. Giving both will allow a mid-level sorc, say 8th level, with a decent enough cha and auto-success almost every time he uses ANY magic item. 8th level (11 ranks, +4 bonus for level, +5 cha bonus, +2 synergy for scrolls) - auto succeeds all wands and class feature emulations and all scrolls third level (if takes 5 cc ranks of decipher script...make that ALL 5th level scrolls). I would suggest making UMD the class skill (you did give extra skill points per level). another option would be to make UMD for sorc or Bard a level check with cha bonus, go ahead and grant the synergy bones based on spellcraft and decipher script for scrolls. That will make it a bit tougher, but won't need to spend the skills - it will work same as animal empathy. hope I help to feed the fire. mark kelly
Banpai 05-09-04, 05:56 PM	Thx much for your help hwkies But concering your feat suggestions, IMO its not worth taking extra spell chause it wastes a spell slot for that could be used for very sorcerer friendly feats like empower spell which readuces the need for similar spells at each level. Arcane praparation on the other hand is a usefull feat but it does not let you prepare spells from a spell book (as far as I am informend I refer to the current version from PGtF); this would be as powerfull as allowing wizards to spell mastery all their spells with a single feat (really no insult intended). Your other suggestions are very interresting and I think I will reduce the bonus the sorcerer gets (if he advances as sorcerer) to 1/3 * sorcerer levels. The ability to cast more spells per day gives the sorcer more fire power, definetely it does so, but while the wizards strenght , versatility is increased by this system the sorcerer does not get a bit more versatile. While this not such a great point in many campaigns but in games where spellcasters donīt use their spells primary for battle but for those funny moments when a sorcerer thinks that he simply has to polymorph his 5 punds salmon into a 15 pound one ........ its very prestigious. I am currently thinking about giving the sorcerer bonus feats (metamagic feats and Spell Thematics) at 6th and every 6 levels there after but this does not solve the porblem that the spellcasting itselft is not balanced with the wizards spellcasting. I really hope to get more reply and sorry for my bad spelling nowadays :D
Jack Daniel 05-09-04, 11:41 PM	I've said it before and I'll say it again: the only reason the sorcerer class exists is to give players the option to cast their spells spontaneously. If you give that ability to wizards, clerics, and the other spellcasters, you must ether drop the sorcerer or re-write the class completely. If you do decide to keep the sorcerer, alter it so that sorcerers can have as diverse a list of spells known as wizards or divine casters, but comparable spells per day. Spontaneous casting is supposed to be their specialty, and if you give that to everybody, then sorcerers need a new specialty. I'll give you an example. In many fantasy stories, sorcery is defined as casting spells that summon creatures, often to ask for information. So, in my campaign, I decided to make the sorcerer a special "double specialist" mage that had advantages in both divination and conjuration. I gave the sorcerer the same spells per day chart as the wizard (but still based on Charisma); access to conjuration, divination, any three other wizard schools, and one domain (chosen from Magic, Fire, Earth, Air, Water, Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos) with slightly altered granted powers. Then I rounded out the class by giving it all the special "alternate conjurer" abilities from UA.
castlemike 05-11-04, 03:23 AM	That sounds pretty interesting Jack enjoyed reading your post.
Banpai 05-11-04, 04:34 AM	Thx for your help Jack Daniel these are definitely interresting ideas and while those ideas are the right thing for your game, they unfortunately donīt fit in mine. So I came up with the following. remove familliar or (players choice) grand eschew material as virtual bonus feat (works for sorcerer spells only) 4+int skill points per level inability to use spell completion items if the spells(s) are not on the list of the sorcerers spells known Intimidate and Use Magic devise are added to the sorcerers class skills the sorcerer gains a bonus to Use Magic device checks equal to one-third their class level sorcerers gain bonus spells known base upon their natural Charisma score, excluding Charisma bonuses of penailities from spells, magic items, superatural effects, or other non-permanent ability score adjustments. For each bonus spell per day, the Sorcerer gains a known spell of that level (to balance this with respect to other fixed-known-spells classes, Bards would also gains bonus spells known basen on their natural charisma score and Wizards gain bonus free-research spells based upon their INt score) using quicken spells does not increase the casting time of spells for sorcerers but you still cant use quicken spell and other metamagic feat on the same spell Bonus feats at level 6, 12 and 18 these can be any metamagic feat or the Spell Diletant Feat presented below Spell Diletant [General] [Sorcerer] Requirements: Sorcerer level 6, cna be taken only as sorcerer bonusfeat Benefit: Chose another spell list, like the cleric or bard list. When selection new spells known or replacing spells from your list with others you can chose from all school you have access to. Normal: You can only select spells from your sorcerer/wizard list Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Spells that require DF still do and all spells are considered arcane. The DM should feel free to remove specific spells from spells lists for the purose of this feat Spell Thematics as bonus feat at level 3 Maybe this is stretching it a bit but I think its quite interresting to have sorcerers as masters of magic + it gives additional benefet to stay in the class. I hope you like it and honor it with waves of reply :D
castlemike 05-11-04, 04:53 AM	Agree it should be 3 or 4 skill points. Think sorcerers should get a better HD don't see why bards or rogues are tougher than them. Bonus feat of Eschew materials at 1st or permanent +1 spell secrets modifications to a half dozen or so spells total at the following levels 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16 and 19 akin to the Wujen from Oriental Adventures to match the wizard's Scribe scroll along with bonus feats at 5, 10, 15 and 20 like a regular wizard. I really like the Nexus Method from Dragon #319 allows sorcerer or wizard to swap out non conjuration spell for equivalent level summon monster spell. Feats like Draconic Spell heritage feat and others grant an additional spell at each level which is nice. Thought an interesting feat like "Sorcerous Erudite" would be nice but costly. Allows sorcerers to research additional known existing sorc/wiz spells under rules for wizards researching original spells which is basically a 1,000 GP per spell level if successfully making the check using spell craft. Creating original costs 3,000 GP level. Partly depends on how rich or poor a campaign is regarding potential for abuse and would have to devote skill points to spell craft instead of lowballing it. With things like the Domain Mage and the Nexus Method wizards are getting spontaneous casting. I'd limit Spells cast per day to match the Cleric slightly more than a specialist wizard one additional spell a level and slightly fewer than presently with standard spell progression until reaching upper levels and basically forfeiting one 6th, one 7th, one 8th and one 9th level daily casting at level 20 maxing out daily spell casting as per the clerics spells per day plus bonus domain spell.
Banpai 05-11-04, 05:07 PM	Nice ideas castlemike, I am particuarly interrested in your reduction of spells per day. Do you mean 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/5/5 ? These feats are defintely interresting but with the Daily spell list variant they are more or less useless IMO. Your Sorcerous Erudite feat is nice too but IMO definetely too powerfull. Maybe the creation a items that let you use your spell energy and transform them into the spell in the item. Very much like a sorcerer a staff and the master stafft feat. Something like that would definitely not be very cheap. The Bloodline feats from dragon 311 are gerat too, but there are defintely some bloodlines (like elf) missing.
Krelios 05-11-04, 05:54 PM	This variant makes the sorcerer definetly much worse and one more spell per day is defintely not a solution for me and my group. There's nothing to change. A sorcerer is STILL going to be more flexible than a wizard under this variant for two reasons. 1) A wizard still has to prepare an effective "list of spells known" each day--he will still have access to less diversity than a sorcerer each day so he will still have to know what he's going into. 2) The sorcerer has MORE spellpoints than the wizard. Combined with more powers accessible during any 24 hour period, the sorcerer STILL outpowers the wizard in combat and can be more versitale depending on the spells the wizard prepared for his daily spell list.
gemsna 05-12-04, 06:46 AM	The only variants we used in our campaigns so far where free Eschew Materials and Bloodline(player's choice) feats. No change in skill points, class skills or anything else, only these two feats.
Banpai 05-12-04, 11:26 AM	@Krelios I donīt use the Spell points system only the Daily spelllist variant form the siedebar. And unfortunately I dissagree with you. Its a matter of fact that the sorcerer still has the exclusiv powers to use metamagic spontanious and use higher level spellslots for lower level spells on the fly but lets take a level 7 wizard to compare the systems. Lets give the wizard 18 INT an a Ring of Wizardry I, that gives our wizard 9 level 1 slots. So with the old system he could prepare 9 different spells but as experience tells us, some of them will never be used. Now with the Daily spell list system he can have 9 spells as spells known copmaired to a level 7 sorcerer he has 4! more spells known. The fact that he can change his spells known makes him even more versatile. Well the wizard had a nice item but even without he would have as much spells known as the sorcere. I win :D ;)
castlemike 05-12-04, 12:56 PM	Originally posted by Banpai Nice ideas castlemike, I am particuarly interrested in your reduction of spells per day. Do you mean 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/5/5 ? Thanks, Exactly on the spell casting a slight reduction in overall total daily spellcasting and advancing with standard spell progression 3rd versus 4th, 5th versus 6th, 7th verusus 8th . Clerics and druids already have a minor case of spontaneous casting and wizards have Spell Mastery as an option and are getting more and more options for spontaneous casting with options like Domain Mages and Feats like the Nexus Method. Agree Sorcerous Erudite Feat powerful and subject to abuse particularly in a rich campaign. Maybe limiting additional spells to Int Mod a level with a max of 3 extra known spells per level and that is with paying for that research and making those spellcraft checks. If the only change to the core sorcerer is allowing this feat which requires 1,000 GP a week in research and One week of research per spell level for commonly known Sor/Wiz spells, (500 GP and one week or cantrips) TRIPLING THE COST for New and ORIGIANAL SPELLS. BEFORE making the Spellcraft check, don't let them take 10 on the check. This is under DM control and now some sorcerers aren't lowballing Spellcraft even in campaigns that don't require many skill checks. Just knowing your PC could Know a few more spells if you were willing to pay the "costs" involved really cut down on the complaining. We're talking 45 weeks of research and 45,000 GP with 9 successful spell craft checks that get harder and more costly as your PC advances to know one extra first to ninth level spell of your choice vice getting a Freebie Bonus Spell at each level for taking a Feat like Dragon Ancestry Spell Feat or The Nexus Method. (That's a quarter of the wealth of a DMG 20th level character and would buy a lot of useful magic items) Costs triple for developing some of those unique signature spells. I really liked the ideal of the Battle Sorcerer in UA with Bardic armor restriction casting and BAB, choice of a decent weapon and a good HD like a Druid or Cleric. I would have given it standard spell progression like a specialist wizard since they capped spell casting at 5 a level and lowered known spells but all in all a nice concept. Take it a step further play a Battle Spellcaster choose your primary spellcasting ability and gain "Your Choice Bonus Feats" at 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20 in lieu of Summon Familiar and slightly fewer spells cast at lower level basically evening out to loss of a single 9th level daily spell casting at level 20. Make your primary ability Int for skills if they matter in your campaign. Third step play a Gestalt Battle Spellcaster/Domain Mage or Specialist now there is a nice weapons platform with a lot of spell versatility, spontaneous casting, Bardic Armor casting and Bab, Cleric and Druid HD and give a +2 level adjustment for figuring experience. Imagine if you made him human and he took a Vow of Poverty at First Level (Best with a Domain Mage) and took Spell Mastery at Level 3, 5 and 6 and as desired afterwards. LN with an Imp in a campaign that allows the Imp to confer Regeneration 2, Spell Resistance and that super 6 Question Commune 1/week like the old days. Just a few thoughts.
Banpai 05-12-04, 05:44 PM	Agree Sorcerous Erudite Feat powerful and subject to abuse particularly in a rich campaign. Maybe limiting additional spells to Int Mod a level with a max of 3 extra known spells per level and that is with paying for that research and making those spellcraft checks. If the only change to the core sorcerer is allowing this feat which requires 1,000 GP a week in research and One week of research per spell level for commonly known Sor/Wiz spells, (500 GP and one week or cantrips) TRIPLING THE COST for New and ORIGIANAL SPELLS. BEFORE making the Spellcraft check, don't let them take 10 on the check. This is under DM control and now some sorcerers aren't lowballing Spellcraft even in campaigns that don't require many skill checks. Just knowing your PC could Know a few more spells if you were willing to pay the "costs" involved really cut down on the complaining. We're talking 45 weeks of research and 45,000 GP with 9 successful spell craft checks that get harder and more costly as your PC advances to know one extra first to ninth level spell of your choice vice getting a Freebie Bonus Spell at each level for taking a Feat like Dragon Ancestry Spell Feat or The Nexus Method. (That's a quarter of the wealth of a DMG 20th level character and would buy a lot of useful magic items) [B]Agree Sorcerous Erudite Feat powerful and subject to abuse particularly in a rich campaign. Maybe limiting additional spells to Int Mod a level with a max of 3 extra known spells per level and that is with paying for that research and making those spellcraft checks. nice, seems exactly right for a PrC. Would be wonderfull for something like a "studious sorcerer" I really liked the ideal of the Battle Sorcerer in UA with Bardic armor restriction casting and BAB, choice of a decent weapon and a good HD like a Druid or Cleric. I would have given it standard spell progression like a specialist wizard since they capped spell casting at 5 a level and lowered known spells but all in all a nice concept. True True its really a nice class put aside the problem to find a suitable PrC. On the other hand it shows that the standart sorcerer is unbalanced. Take it a step further play a Battle Spellcaster choose your primary spellcasting ability and gain "Your Choice Bonus Feats" at 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20 in lieu of Summon Familiar and slightly fewer spells cast at lower level basically evening out to loss of a single 9th level daily spell casting at level 20. Make your primary ability Int for skills if they matter in your campaign. Thats a good one too, but is this a way to balance the sorcerer class or to balance known spellcasting with daily spell list? Third step play a Gestalt Battle Spellcaster/Domain Mage or Specialist now there is a nice weapons platform with a lot of spell versatility, spontaneous casting, Bardic Armor casting and Bab, Cleric and Druid HD and give a +2 level adjustment for figuring experience.Imagine if you made him human and he took a Vow of Poverty at First Level (Best with a Domain Mage) and took Spell Mastery at Level 3, 5 and 6 and as desired afterwards. LN with an Imp in a campaign that allows the Imp to confer Regeneration 2, Spell Resistance and that super 6 Question Commune 1/week like the old days. Personally I would not go through that door