Post/Author/DateTime	Post
anonicon 03-25-08, 01:15 PM	Hey-o, I'm doing a complete, simplified re-working of the 3.5 rules for newbies and overworked DMs, and am stuck on simplifying the grapple rules and sub-rules (they become screeching gamestoppers). Do you think it would kill my variant or improve it if I just banned grappling? I ask since, unlike other special attacks like trip, bull rush, etc, grappling can take a healthy, living combat and kill it depending on the given situation. Thanks, Chuck
Naderion 03-25-08, 01:31 PM	You might want to take a look at the grapple rules in the Pathfinder RPG Alpha 1 pdf. Though I never considered using grapple in my games, I'd totaly would with these rules.
Orenmir 03-25-08, 02:22 PM	I think banning grappling is a bad idea. There are many monsters you'd have to tweak or omit because they depend on it. There are also great tactical uses for PCs, even if they aren't optimized grapplers. If your only motive for banning it is that it takes up too much game time, I'd suggest finding ways to speed it up. I currently play an optimized grappler, and my turn takes no longer than anyone else's at the table. And, the DM is new to constant grappling. What is it about grappling that slows down the game? Is it simply the fact that the DM and PC have to make an additional roll? If so, just roll numerous d20s in advance, line up the dice in order, and start rattling off the numbers. Once you get used to it (like my DM and I have), you see how quickly it goes.
squidyak 03-25-08, 03:08 PM	So if a player wants to restrain an NPC he can't? Hell no.
anonicon 03-25-08, 04:57 PM	So if a player wants to restrain an NPC he can't? Hell no. Easy replies first. Per your note, regular tripping, Improved Trip, or smacking the NPC around for nonlethal damage, or just about 10 other options involving yourself, or an animal companion/familiar, or your party?
anonicon 03-25-08, 05:26 PM	If your only motive for banning it is that it takes up too much game time, I'd suggest finding ways to speed it up. I currently play an optimized grappler, and my turn takes no longer than anyone else's at the table. And, the DM is new to constant grappling. What is it about grappling that slows down the game? Is it simply the fact that the DM and PC have to make an additional roll? If so, just roll numerous d20s in advance, line up the dice in order, and start rattling off the numbers. FYI, I don't have anything against grappling as a combat form. To answer your question, no, it's not the extra roll, it's having to look up which conditions apply in which scenarios. Per the SRD below, there are 20+ elements to a grapple, and some of those single elements have multiple contingencies within each one. Compared to regular attacks or feinting, tripping, charging, etc, Grappling as presented in 3.5 defies Rule-of-Thumb simplification and absolutely requires that the rule books be pulled out and consulted in the middle of combat. Great for game lawyers, not so great if you're just trying to enjoy the game. That's why I'm considering banning it, or trying to find/create a simpler system a la Paizo's 3.75 which was previously pointed out. Chuck Grapple Grapple Checks Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier Special Size Modifier The special size modifier for a grapple check is as follows: Colossal +16, Gargantuan +12, Huge +8, Large +4, Medium +0, Small -4, Tiny -8, Diminutive -12, Fine -16. Use this number in place of the normal size modifier you use when making an attack roll. Starting a Grapple To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses). Step 1 Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2. Step 2 Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3. Step 3 Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike. If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are. In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie. Step 4 Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.) Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target. If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1. Grappling Consequences While you’re grappling, your ability to attack others and defend yourself is limited. No Threatened Squares You don’t threaten any squares while grappling. No Dexterity Bonus You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.) No Movement You can’t move normally while grappling. You may, however, make an opposed grapple check to move while grappling. If You’re Grappling When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses. Activate a Magic Item You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require spell completion activation. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item. Attack Your Opponent You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. Cast a Spell You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell. Damage Your Opponent While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check. Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage. Draw a Light Weapon You can draw a light weapon as a move action with a successful grapple check. Escape from Grapple You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s). Move You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple. Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple. Retrieve a Spell Component You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check. Pin Your Opponent You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below). Break Another’s Pin If you are grappling an opponent who has another character pinned, you can make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you break the hold that the opponent has over the other character. The character is still grappling, but is no longer pinned. Use Opponent’s Weapon If your opponent is holding a light weapon, you can use it to attack him. Make an opposed grapple check (in place of an attack). If you win, make an attack roll with the weapon with a -4 penalty (doing this doesn’t require another action). You don’t gain possession of the weapon by performing this action. If You’re Pinning an Opponent You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking. You can use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well secured object worn by a pinned opponent, but he gets a +4 bonus on his roll to resist your attempt. You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action; if you do so, you are no longer considered to be grappling that character (and vice versa). You can’t draw or use a weapon (against the pinned character or any other character), escape another’s grapple, retrieve a spell component, pin another character, or break another’s pin while you are pinning an opponent. If You’re Pinned by an Opponent When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling. Joining a Grapple If your target is already grappling someone else, you can use an attack to start a grapple, as above, except that the target doesn’t get an attack of opportunity against you, and your grab automatically succeeds. You still have to make a successful opposed grapple check to become part of the grapple. If there are multiple opponents involved in the grapple, you pick one to make the opposed grapple check against. Multiple Grapplers Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Creatures that are one or more size categories smaller than you count for half, creatures that are one size category larger than you count double, and creatures two or more size categories larger count quadruple. When you are grappling with multiple opponents, you choose one opponent to make an opposed check against. The exception is an attempt to escape from the grapple; to successfully escape, your grapple check must beat the check results of each opponent.
Orenmir 03-25-08, 05:39 PM	FYI, I don't have anything against grappling as a combat form. I know you don't. Many DMs wince at the prospect of grappling. Unless you're used to it, it can seem unbearable. To answer your question, no, it's not the extra roll, it's having to look up which conditions apply in which scenarios. Per the SRD below, there are 20+ elements to a grapple, and some of those single elements have multiple contingencies within each one. Compared to regular attacks or feinting, tripping, charging, etc, Grappling as presented in 3.5 defies Rule-of-Thumb simplification and absolutely requires that the rule books be pulled out and consulted in the middle of combat. Great for game lawyers, not so great if you're just trying to enjoy the game. That's why I'm considering banning it, or trying to find/create a simpler system a la Paizo's 3.75 which was previously pointed out. Chuck Grapple Grapple Checks Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier Special Size Modifier The special size modifier for a grapple check is as follows: Colossal +16, Gargantuan +12, Huge +8, Large +4, Medium +0, Small -4, Tiny -8, Diminutive -12, Fine -16. Use this number in place of the normal size modifier you use when making an attack roll. Starting a Grapple To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses). Step 1 Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2. Step 2 Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3. Step 3 Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike. If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are. In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie. Step 4 Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.) Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target. If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1. Grappling Consequences While you’re grappling, your ability to attack others and defend yourself is limited. No Threatened Squares You don’t threaten any squares while grappling. No Dexterity Bonus You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.) No Movement You can’t move normally while grappling. You may, however, make an opposed grapple check to move while grappling. If You’re Grappling When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses. Activate a Magic Item You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require spell completion activation. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item. Attack Your Opponent You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. Cast a Spell You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell. Damage Your Opponent While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check. Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage. Draw a Light Weapon You can draw a light weapon as a move action with a successful grapple check. Escape from Grapple You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s). Move You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple. Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple. Retrieve a Spell Component You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check. Pin Your Opponent You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below). Break Another’s Pin If you are grappling an opponent who has another character pinned, you can make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you break the hold that the opponent has over the other character. The character is still grappling, but is no longer pinned. Use Opponent’s Weapon If your opponent is holding a light weapon, you can use it to attack him. Make an opposed grapple check (in place of an attack). If you win, make an attack roll with the weapon with a -4 penalty (doing this doesn’t require another action). You don’t gain possession of the weapon by performing this action. If You’re Pinning an Opponent You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking. You can use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well secured object worn by a pinned opponent, but he gets a +4 bonus on his roll to resist your attempt. You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action; if you do so, you are no longer considered to be grappling that character (and vice versa). You can’t draw or use a weapon (against the pinned character or any other character), escape another’s grapple, retrieve a spell component, pin another character, or break another’s pin while you are pinning an opponent. If You’re Pinned by an Opponent When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling. Joining a Grapple If your target is already grappling someone else, you can use an attack to start a grapple, as above, except that the target doesn’t get an attack of opportunity against you, and your grab automatically succeeds. You still have to make a successful opposed grapple check to become part of the grapple. If there are multiple opponents involved in the grapple, you pick one to make the opposed grapple check against. Multiple Grapplers Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Creatures that are one or more size categories smaller than you count for half, creatures that are one size category larger than you count double, and creatures two or more size categories larger count quadruple. When you are grappling with multiple opponents, you choose one opponent to make an opposed check against. The exception is an attempt to escape from the grapple; to successfully escape, your grapple check must beat the check results of each opponent. The 20+ elements you refer to come into play about as often as elements that would slow down normal combat. The solution to making such contingencies flow quickly is to be well-versed and prepared for them -- much the same way you'd be prepared for similar contingencies in regular combat. My point is: 90% of the time, grappling goes as smooth as any other part of the game that you are used to. It's rare occasions like "sundering a worn item of someone you're pinning" that might slow things down. Like I said, such occurrences are as rare as a meleer getting the "trip" or "sunder" or "disarm" curveball thrown at him. And these are all mechanics that a DM can roll through quickly. Here's a little tip to make grappling faster: Have monsters take 10 on their grapple checks. That strips the mechanics down to almost as simple as regular melee.
Tequila_Sunrise 03-25-08, 07:02 PM	I suggest condensing all those elements into a much smaller number of elements. It might make certain situations less realistic but if you're looking for simplification, it seems the best choice. I really don't like the idea of banning grappling, as eliminating such a plausible option would make combat more video-gamey: PC: We don't have silver weapons, so I want to jump on the werewolf so I can try to tie him up. DM: Sorry, you can attack or you can run away. PC: *sigh* I'll just start writing up my next character then...
anonicon 03-25-08, 08:12 PM	OK, so banning grappling is out. That's cool, but how to simplify it without making it something as lame as "You hit, the enemy is paralyzed." I checked out the Paizo 3.75 alpha system, page 42 (http://paizo.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Store.woa/wa/pathfinderRPGAlpha) that Naderion recommended, and like the scaling DCs and simplified options (see spoiler below with my changes in italics). However, the new CMB mechanic is yet another piece of bookkeeping that I'd rather skip for regular 3.5's system of Hit AC -> Opposed Grapple Checks -> Result. Grapple As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering their combat options. 0 Make a touch attack against the foe's touch AC. A If you do not have Improved Unarmed Strike, improved grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your special attack. B Attempting to grapple a foe without two free hands imposes a –4 penalty on the initial touch attack and opposed grapple checks. C If you grapple an opponent, you must continue to make a check each round to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a one-time +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target next round. A successful grapple check has the following results, depending on how much the roll exceeds the DC. Held (DC): If your attack is successful, your target cannot move to a space that is not adjacent without first breaking the grapple, but is otherwise unaffected. Grabbed (DC +5): If your attack exceeds the DC by 5 or more, your target cannot move at all without first breaking the grapple, and can only take actions that require one free hand. For example, your target could make an attack against you with a one-handed weapon or cast a spell, but could not attack you with a two-handed weapon. The target cannot cast spells or use spell-like abilities without succeeding on a DC 20 Concentration check. Grappled (DC +10): If your attack exceeds the DC by 10 or more, your target cannot move at all without first breaking the grapple, and can only take actions that do not require free hands to perform, such as casting a still spell, making an unarmed attack with a knee, or activating a held or worn magic item. The target cannot cast spells or use spell-like abilities without succeeding on a DC 20 Concentration check (and then, only if the spell does not have any somatic components). Pinned (DC +15): If your attack exceeds the DC by 15 or more, the target is pinned and can take no actions except to attempt to break the grapple or actions that require only speech or thought (such as casting a spell with only verbal components). The target cannot cast spells or use spell-like abilities without succeeding on a DC 20 Concentration check. The target takes a –5 penalty on checks made to break the grapple. If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver roll or Escape Artist check (DC 10 + opponent’s CMB). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Grappling creatures lose their Dex bonus unless involved in a pin. Pinned creatures (both the grappler and the target) are considered flat-footed. Grappling creatures do not enter each other’s squares. Yes, it needs work, but IMO it's a lot more intuitive than regular 3.5. FWIW, how would you change the equation above?
Cranewings 03-25-08, 10:21 PM	I like the idea of banning grappling. The combat rules are fantastic, the grappling ones aren't. They don't fit. DnD is like point fighting. Grappling in dnd is like wrestling in a point fighting tourney. It would be stupid. I don't like the grappling rules at all. I'd let people make a grappling roll, and then perform an action with it, like pin for the next attack, or do a throw. Then the victim is out and combat returns to normal. I also think all grappling rolls should be contested strike rolls. Letting them hit ac sucks.
squidyak 03-25-08, 11:06 PM	If you want to simplify it, just have it opposed attack rolls. No matter how badly the defender rolls the attacker must at least meet the defender's touch ac. If the attacker wins, the opponent is grappled. Whenever anyone wants to do anything it's an opposed grapple, with the DM adding modifiers based upon how difficult he thinks the maneuver is.
anonicon 03-25-08, 11:24 PM	If you want to simplify it, just have it opposed attack rolls. No matter how badly the defender rolls the attacker must at least meet the defender's touch ac. If the attacker wins, the opponent is grappled. Whenever anyone wants to do anything it's an opposed grapple, with the DM adding modifiers based upon how difficult he thinks the maneuver is. So, for example, just skip the initial attack phase and go straight to opposed grapple checks of Attacker = BAB+STR mod+other mods+d20 vs Defender = BAB+STR mod+other mods+d20 ? If the attacker fails, he fails, if he wins, determine what happened by the difference between the two like the Paizo system above does? Simple, intuitive, sounds good.
trapspringer 03-26-08, 12:23 AM	My only real criticism of the grapple system is that it's a little piece of reality in an otherwise unreal world. It's really well thought out. OTOH, if your goal is to streamline and simplify, I'd suggest you take it out and simply don't use monsters that rely on it.
squidyak 03-26-08, 12:52 AM	So, for example, just skip the initial attack phase and go straight to opposed grapple checks of Attacker = BAB+STR mod+other mods+d20 vs Defender = BAB+STR mod+other mods+d20 ? If the attacker fails, he fails, if he wins, determine what happened by the difference between the two like the Paizo system above does? Simple, intuitive, sounds good. I guess I need to look at Paizo's grappling rules, I haven't heard a negative comment about it yet.
Naderion 03-26-08, 07:43 AM	In all those years, I've never seen grappling actually happen. :D
SouthernTiger 03-26-08, 01:38 PM	I hear ya... Naderion... but seriously... I don't think WOTC did enough research into the whole point of grappling... which in my humble opinion is a part of the martial arts genre. If you look at Ju-jitsu, especially brazilian ju-jitsu, aikido, judo, the new UFC mixed martial arts genre... or even the old world Greek/Roman wrestling back some 2,000 years ago. You would see that the point of grappling is not just pin but also makes it easier to strike, whether it's groin strike, head butt or even a throw.. the 3.5 rules just don't work well and there are too many AOO opportunities. If I wanted to pull your head down and knee strike you in the face like in Muay Thai.. you can't really do it ... even with improved grapple it's a pain in the butt and if you are a monk, you usually always end up doing flurry of blows. so I continue to look for other D20 license companies and look for something that makes it quick and easy.
skrap-san 03-27-08, 06:48 PM	OK here is my house rules for grappling. Everyone has a grapple AC (now GAC) calculated as follows 10+bab+str+misc defeat the ac to grapple an opponent. He cannot make an attack of opportunity against you unless you fail the save. depending on how much you defeat his GAC with you end up with the Held, grabbed, grappled and pinned condition. Stolen from the Pathfinder rules (to tired to write them up). hope this helps you out a bit.
Edymnion 03-27-08, 08:16 PM	Honestly, whats so hard about grappling? Make a touch attack to see if you can even lay hands on the guy. Make opposed strength checks (or dex if the guy is slippery). If you win, he's grappled. To keep holding on to him, you just keep up the opposed checks. Its that simple, everything else is common sense. Its harder to pin somebody bigger than you, its easier to pin someone smaller than you, if you've got both hands holding the guy down, you can't attack somebody else... I mean, grappling is nothing but rolling 2d20, thats it.
Sinis 03-27-08, 11:33 PM	Eh, it's not such a big deal. And, it's a signature move of many monsters. I mean, Wyverns don't really have teeth if they can't carry players off.
Michaelk 03-28-08, 11:40 AM	Hey-o, I'm doing a complete, simplified re-working of the 3.5 rules for newbies and overworked DMs, and am stuck on simplifying the grapple rules and sub-rules (they become screeching gamestoppers). Do you think it would kill my variant or improve it if I just banned grappling? I ask since, unlike other special attacks like trip, bull rush, etc, grappling can take a healthy, living combat and kill it depending on the given situation. Thanks, Chuck If you're writing it for you and yours then all that matters is whether your players would like it. But as for me, I wouldn't use it without houseruling grappling back into it.
Edymnion 03-28-08, 12:34 PM	I ask since, unlike other special attacks like trip, bull rush, etc, grappling can take a healthy, living combat and kill it depending on the given situation.This I really find confusing, considering that, aside from maintaining a grapple, the rules for grappling are virtually identical to the rules for tripping, with as many side rules to go with it (size, 4 legs vs. 2, being prone, then throw weapons into it).
vagabonvoid 03-28-08, 01:58 PM	I switched over to SW SAGA grapple rules with feats as effects when it came out. It makes grappling much more playable.
MorandirNailo 03-29-08, 03:20 AM	Honestly, whats so hard about grappling? Make a touch attack to see if you can even lay hands on the guy. Make opposed strength checks (or dex if the guy is slippery). If you win, he's grappled. To keep holding on to him, you just keep up the opposed checks. Its that simple, everything else is common sense. Its harder to pin somebody bigger than you, its easier to pin someone smaller than you, if you've got both hands holding the guy down, you can't attack somebody else... I mean, grappling is nothing but rolling 2d20, thats it. I was going to say this, but Edymnion saved me some time. Rather than taking time to work up a new system, why not make a small cheat sheet? Then run a few practice combats where the opponents do nothing but grapple. You'll have the rules down in no time. Mor
trapspringer 04-02-08, 04:18 PM	It's true. The grappling system as it stands is actually really intuitive. Touch attack followed by opposed grapple to initiate. Opposed grapple to do [something] or attack with a light weapon at -4. One grapple check/light weapon attack per round per attack. You can't grapple anything way bigger than you. If you are pinned all you can do is escape. That's basically it in two lines. There are a bunch of miscellaneous modifiers like size and number of arms (ok, so there are really only like two miscellaneous modifiers), but otherwise it's a very simple system.