Bard as a true jack-of-all-trades: different magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard as a true jack-of-all-trades: different magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jay
11-25-04, 09:20 AM Both the PHB flavour text and the common wisdom call the D&D bard a jack
of all trades.

But the spell list says something like jack of social interaction and
buffing. It's very focused, very non-jack-of-all-trade-like, and behind
a weaker than a dedicated caster even in this specialty.

So, I've been thinking about a few ideas intended to make a bard much
more versatile, and also a little bit more powerful.

The first, simpler idea is to allow bards to choose their spells from
any spell list, including the current bardic list, for their spells
known. What's wrong with a 7th-level bard casting fireball? He's doing
it once per day. At the same time the sorcerer is doing it 5 times per
day; the wizard, 3 times per day, and casting a 4th-level spell or two
on top of that.

The staggered spell progression already covers the "master of none"
aspect of a jack of all trades, even without the restricted list, so
maybe the list shouldn't be restricted?

Less radical (and perhaps even more interesting) would be to allow the
bards to pick one spell at each level from any list, with the rest of
the spells coming from the normal bard list. There's less possibility
for abusive combos and it keeps the general morale
officer/diviner/enchanter flavour of the spell list; but it gives some
additional power and versatility, and better distinguishes individual
bards from each other.

The other, more complex idea is inspired by abilities the artificer base
class from Eberrong Campaign Setting, and also the way limited wish
makes a sorcerer who has it a jack of all trades, master of none, by
enabling him to do cast any spell (up to 5th-level) in the game... at
the cost of 300 XP and a 7th-level slot, which keeps him from outshining
all the other casters which have a lesser selection and/or prepare in
advance, but pay 5th-level slots for 5th-level spells.

Imagine if bards had a wish-like spell for each level. The 9th-level
wish can mimic any 8th-level Sor/Wiz spell and any 7th-level spell. The
7th-level limited wish can mimic any 6th-level Sor/Wiz spell and any
5th-level spell. So why not a 3rd-level wish for 2nd and 1st level
spells?

In exchange for not having to pay XP for these mini-miracles, the bard
loses the ability to cast any other spells, so he'll be always spending
slot for less than they're worth, for example 6th-level slots on 5th-
level spells.

Also, drawing inspiration from the artificer's spell storing item
infusion which allows you to create a temporary one-shot item of any
spell 4th-level or lower in the game with 1 minute of casting, an UMD
check, and a little XP, require perform checks for bard to perform his
mini-miracles, and extend normal casting times. The intended flavour is
the bard creating healing, or scrying, or shaping stone through the
power of his performance. Not normally something you'd do in combat, but
see below.

So, say you can spend a bardic spell slot to cast any spell from any
list of appropriate level, with a casting time of 1 minute (or higher,
if the normal casting time is higher); or any spell that's one level
lower, with it's normal casting time.

Both uses would require perform checks, DC 20 + 3 x spell level. A
failed check doesn't use up a slot, just means you have to try again.
That means that out of combat, it won't matter often (but it might:
there's a difference between needing 1 minute and 2 minutes to cast a
second heroism while the first is already running...) In combat: take a
10th-level bard, Skill Focus, Cha 20. Perform +21, which means he'll
need 8 on a d20 to cast fireball with his one 4th-level slot. At the
time the sorcerer's casting Empowered fireballs. I don't think it will
detract from the sorc's fun.

Where it might be broken is the incredible versatility of effectively
having access to *any* spell of any level of which you have unused
slots. Will the party cleric ever prepare remove curse or invisibility
purge, if the bard can produce them as needed? OTOH, the staggered spell
progression is still there, meaning that it takes a 7th-level bard to
sing a remove curse song, while your typical 5th-level cleric can remove
two curses per day...

Also, it takes 5th-level slots, at 13th-level, for this bard to outpace
what the artificer can do with spell storing item. The XP costs for SSI
are almost negligible and the artificer can mimic 4th-level spells at
8th level already (if he can make the DC 32 UMD check, which is a bit
unlikely, but possible), and the artificer can also do all sorts of
stuff besides.

There's all sorts of alternatives possible: instead of requiring higher
level slots for combat-usable (i.e. normal) casting time, increase
perform DCs, or impose and XP cost, or a cost in bardic music. Allow
spending bardic music uses for bonuses on the perform check, for those
really really important spells...

But that's fiddling that should really be left for later. What I'd like
to know is if anyone likes the general idea (making the bard the jack of
all trades the flavour text suggest he is by radically expanding his
magical options), and your opinions about this implementation: on the
right track, good idea but needs fixing, good idea but unworkable...?
CaoSlayer
11-25-04, 12:37 PM the trouble of allowing the bard to access every wizard/sorcerer spell isnt because the direct damage spell... are those spells that are balanced because a wizard/sorc sucks at combat...
allowing a bard the enlarge spell, polimorph,endurace and tenser´s transformation for saying some will make them the ultimate warrior/fighters.

I would recomend you so to make yourself a good spell-list, well wrote and guides to add new ones with each splatbook released...

examples of non-wrote guides are "bards can learn only evocation [sonic] spells" or "bards will be able to learn enchantment spells one level lower than a sorcerer/wizard, two levels lower if they are level 8".

so I recomend to write so the rule: "allow them to add any tool spells" being tool spell those that are designed for being plain useful and without importance in a fight...

examples of this can be found in trick of the rope, telekinesis, levitation, gust of wind, planeshift and so.
PaTRiXXX
11-25-04, 01:36 PM The "Jack of all trades" part of the bard doesn't come from spellcasting, it comes from spellcasting, SKILLS (and use magic device for instance), music, etc... There is no need for well played bard to have better spellcasting. If you want some info about how to play a bard:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140225
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=99884

BUT if you want a bard with better spellcasting, go with Sublime Chord prestige class from Complete Arcane. It gives spells from lvl 4 up to lvl 9 from bard or from sorcerer lists in exchange for less skills and skill points and lower HD. For some optimized Sublime Chord builds:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=340926
jay
11-26-04, 08:11 AM the trouble of allowing the bard to access every wizard/sorcerer spell isnt because the direct damage spell... are those spells that are balanced because a wizard/sorc sucks at combat...
allowing a bard the enlarge spell, polimorph,endurace and tenser´s transformation for saying some will make them the ultimate warrior/fighters.
Better than a battle sorcerer? Who has better HD, same BAB and more spells, and gets them earlier? Or an eldritch knight, who's turns out very similar to the battle sorc, if you want to keep it core?

Sure, once they got the spells, they'd be able to match a dedicated warrior-mage... for a while. But is that a bad thing? Jack of all trades: a bard (modified as suggested) might be able to match a battle sorcerer in melee in one fight; master of none: the battle sorcerer will be able to keep it up much longer.
CaoSlayer
11-26-04, 01:03 PM I havent saw the battle sorcerer...

about the eldritch knight...

the spellcasting of the eldritch will be better, but just that... an eldritch will be not able to cast in armor, will only have 2 skill points, will have less hp due to required wizards levels and will have not full bardic music or bardic knowledge, and will be unnable to use cure wounds spells.

Thet are balanced actually ever with the limited skill list... try to add eldritch knight levels to a bard and you will find that actually makes weaker the bard.

and also it is a prc, prc are more powerful that normal classes. try to compare it with a bard 3 /wizard 2/ spell singer 5 /virtuoso 10 to find a funny combo.
Thelon Fairblade
11-26-04, 10:17 PM Three Comments:

In my last campaign, I allowed a character to play a "Druidic Bard" based on the celtic bards, as most recently portrayed in the book (and TV movie) Mists of Avalon. Essentially, a divine caster, with a spell list that was part druid part core bard. Core Bardic Music was removed mostly, but in its place were Musics that allowed the bard to match the druid's class abilities... usually weaker and with cost. Example: instead of wildshape, the druidic bard gained a "bardic music": theme of the heartbeast. One shape, chosen when received, never changes, lasts 1 hour. Of course, 1 music per bard level.
--- Why do I mention this? Because at certain levels (2nd, 5th, and 8th, matching perform ranks of 5, 8, and 11), the bard could spend a Bardic Music to request the spirits of the area to cast a spell off the druid spell list. *Any* spell, of 1st, 2nd, or 3rd (matching the 2nd, 5th, and 8th class levels). *BUT* making the request of the spirits took 1 minute and a Diplomacy check of DC 10 +2/spirit level (max spell level). The bard could hurry the performance, at a cost of +2 DC per round of playing skipped. Success or failure resulted the Bardic Music use still being spent.
--- the weakest spirits (1st level spells only) cast everything at CL 1, but were playful: jokes were -2 DC for diplomacy, and cast at the bard's caster level.
--- the next level of spirits (up to 2nd level spells) were interested in life and healing: -2 DC and full caster level on healing spells. They were hard to find in artifical areas, though (cities, dungeons, etc.).
--- the final level of spirits (up to 3rd level spells) were elemental, and generally disliked being disturbed. They gave bonuses if their element was nearby, and if acting agaisnt an opposing element.

So the druidic bard had her Known list of spells, quick casting, full caster level. *and* could spend bardic music to get the rest of the Druid (not druidic bard, just core Druid, with some Relics and Rituals thrown in) list, up to level 3 spells.

Second idea: new campaign starting up. I was thinking to divorce the bard from "arcane" and "divine" entirely, and create "Spellsongs". Partly, your "universal spell, 1 minute, -1 spell level" concept matches that. Basically, the Bard would know 1.5 Songs per class level. Stealing an idea from XPH Psionics (augmentation), the bard would be able to use all his Songs at his full caster level and highest "spell level".. I.e. Lullaby (Sleep) from a 10th level bard is a 4th level spell, and noticably more powerful than Lullaby from a 2nd level bard (1st level spell). However, the Bard would only be able to use 1 Song per day per 2 levels... 10th level bard = 15 Known Songs, 5 4th level effects for the day. (Core bard would have 3 1st, 3 2nd, 3 3rd, and 0* 4th per day, with 14 known spells.)

[Perhaps the spellsong bard would be better modelled on the Psychic warrior than a partial Psion...]

Finally, the maxi-sorcerer concept. Bards can pick Spells Known from the bard list at level +0; druid list at +1 (Cure light wounds gets bumped up, sorry); wizard and sorc +2. Any other spells can be duplicated at +3 levels (yes, he can steal "proprietary spells" from PrC lists, *if* he has heard of them). so a 16th level bard could have Animate Dead (either wizard 4+2, or cleric 3+3), Flame Strike (druid 4+1), Hunter's Mercy (ranger 2+3), Polymorph (wizard 4+2), etc. A 13th level bard could have fireball (wiz 3+2); a 7th level bard could have magic missile (wiz 1+2). Stealing a concept, Limited Wish is a 6th level bard spell.
--- For further balance against this versatility, the bard's caster level is dropped by 2*the spell level adjustment. Magic Missile is +2 spell levels, and therefore, -4 caster levels. That 7th level bard casting magic missile as a 3rd level spell gets only 2 missiles with it (caster level 3). the 16th level bard casting fireball is still getting 10d6 though (16-4 = 12 > level 10 cap)!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jay 11-25-04, 09:20 AM	Both the PHB flavour text and the common wisdom call the D&D bard a jack of all trades. But the spell list says something like jack of social interaction and buffing. It's very focused, very non-jack-of-all-trade-like, and behind a weaker than a dedicated caster even in this specialty. So, I've been thinking about a few ideas intended to make a bard much more versatile, and also a little bit more powerful. The first, simpler idea is to allow bards to choose their spells from any spell list, including the current bardic list, for their spells known. What's wrong with a 7th-level bard casting fireball? He's doing it once per day. At the same time the sorcerer is doing it 5 times per day; the wizard, 3 times per day, and casting a 4th-level spell or two on top of that. The staggered spell progression already covers the "master of none" aspect of a jack of all trades, even without the restricted list, so maybe the list shouldn't be restricted? Less radical (and perhaps even more interesting) would be to allow the bards to pick one spell at each level from any list, with the rest of the spells coming from the normal bard list. There's less possibility for abusive combos and it keeps the general morale officer/diviner/enchanter flavour of the spell list; but it gives some additional power and versatility, and better distinguishes individual bards from each other. The other, more complex idea is inspired by abilities the artificer base class from Eberrong Campaign Setting, and also the way limited wish makes a sorcerer who has it a jack of all trades, master of none, by enabling him to do cast any spell (up to 5th-level) in the game... at the cost of 300 XP and a 7th-level slot, which keeps him from outshining all the other casters which have a lesser selection and/or prepare in advance, but pay 5th-level slots for 5th-level spells. Imagine if bards had a wish-like spell for each level. The 9th-level wish can mimic any 8th-level Sor/Wiz spell and any 7th-level spell. The 7th-level limited wish can mimic any 6th-level Sor/Wiz spell and any 5th-level spell. So why not a 3rd-level wish for 2nd and 1st level spells? In exchange for not having to pay XP for these mini-miracles, the bard loses the ability to cast any other spells, so he'll be always spending slot for less than they're worth, for example 6th-level slots on 5th- level spells. Also, drawing inspiration from the artificer's spell storing item infusion which allows you to create a temporary one-shot item of any spell 4th-level or lower in the game with 1 minute of casting, an UMD check, and a little XP, require perform checks for bard to perform his mini-miracles, and extend normal casting times. The intended flavour is the bard creating healing, or scrying, or shaping stone through the power of his performance. Not normally something you'd do in combat, but see below. So, say you can spend a bardic spell slot to cast any spell from any list of appropriate level, with a casting time of 1 minute (or higher, if the normal casting time is higher); or any spell that's one level lower, with it's normal casting time. Both uses would require perform checks, DC 20 + 3 x spell level. A failed check doesn't use up a slot, just means you have to try again. That means that out of combat, it won't matter often (but it might: there's a difference between needing 1 minute and 2 minutes to cast a second heroism while the first is already running...) In combat: take a 10th-level bard, Skill Focus, Cha 20. Perform +21, which means he'll need 8 on a d20 to cast fireball with his one 4th-level slot. At the time the sorcerer's casting Empowered fireballs. I don't think it will detract from the sorc's fun. Where it might be broken is the incredible versatility of effectively having access to any spell of any level of which you have unused slots. Will the party cleric ever prepare remove curse or invisibility purge, if the bard can produce them as needed? OTOH, the staggered spell progression is still there, meaning that it takes a 7th-level bard to sing a remove curse song, while your typical 5th-level cleric can remove two curses per day... Also, it takes 5th-level slots, at 13th-level, for this bard to outpace what the artificer can do with spell storing item. The XP costs for SSI are almost negligible and the artificer can mimic 4th-level spells at 8th level already (if he can make the DC 32 UMD check, which is a bit unlikely, but possible), and the artificer can also do all sorts of stuff besides. There's all sorts of alternatives possible: instead of requiring higher level slots for combat-usable (i.e. normal) casting time, increase perform DCs, or impose and XP cost, or a cost in bardic music. Allow spending bardic music uses for bonuses on the perform check, for those really really important spells... But that's fiddling that should really be left for later. What I'd like to know is if anyone likes the general idea (making the bard the jack of all trades the flavour text suggest he is by radically expanding his magical options), and your opinions about this implementation: on the right track, good idea but needs fixing, good idea but unworkable...?
CaoSlayer 11-25-04, 12:37 PM	the trouble of allowing the bard to access every wizard/sorcerer spell isnt because the direct damage spell... are those spells that are balanced because a wizard/sorc sucks at combat... allowing a bard the enlarge spell, polimorph,endurace and tenser´s transformation for saying some will make them the ultimate warrior/fighters. I would recomend you so to make yourself a good spell-list, well wrote and guides to add new ones with each splatbook released... examples of non-wrote guides are "bards can learn only evocation [sonic] spells" or "bards will be able to learn enchantment spells one level lower than a sorcerer/wizard, two levels lower if they are level 8". so I recomend to write so the rule: "allow them to add any tool spells" being tool spell those that are designed for being plain useful and without importance in a fight... examples of this can be found in trick of the rope, telekinesis, levitation, gust of wind, planeshift and so.
PaTRiXXX 11-25-04, 01:36 PM	The "Jack of all trades" part of the bard doesn't come from spellcasting, it comes from spellcasting, SKILLS (and use magic device for instance), music, etc... There is no need for well played bard to have better spellcasting. If you want some info about how to play a bard: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140225 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=99884 BUT if you want a bard with better spellcasting, go with Sublime Chord prestige class from Complete Arcane. It gives spells from lvl 4 up to lvl 9 from bard or from sorcerer lists in exchange for less skills and skill points and lower HD. For some optimized Sublime Chord builds: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=340926
jay 11-26-04, 08:11 AM	the trouble of allowing the bard to access every wizard/sorcerer spell isnt because the direct damage spell... are those spells that are balanced because a wizard/sorc sucks at combat... allowing a bard the enlarge spell, polimorph,endurace and tenser´s transformation for saying some will make them the ultimate warrior/fighters. Better than a battle sorcerer? Who has better HD, same BAB and more spells, and gets them earlier? Or an eldritch knight, who's turns out very similar to the battle sorc, if you want to keep it core? Sure, once they got the spells, they'd be able to match a dedicated warrior-mage... for a while. But is that a bad thing? Jack of all trades: a bard (modified as suggested) might be able to match a battle sorcerer in melee in one fight; master of none: the battle sorcerer will be able to keep it up much longer.
CaoSlayer 11-26-04, 01:03 PM	I havent saw the battle sorcerer... about the eldritch knight... the spellcasting of the eldritch will be better, but just that... an eldritch will be not able to cast in armor, will only have 2 skill points, will have less hp due to required wizards levels and will have not full bardic music or bardic knowledge, and will be unnable to use cure wounds spells. Thet are balanced actually ever with the limited skill list... try to add eldritch knight levels to a bard and you will find that actually makes weaker the bard. and also it is a prc, prc are more powerful that normal classes. try to compare it with a bard 3 /wizard 2/ spell singer 5 /virtuoso 10 to find a funny combo.
Thelon Fairblade 11-26-04, 10:17 PM	Three Comments: In my last campaign, I allowed a character to play a "Druidic Bard" based on the celtic bards, as most recently portrayed in the book (and TV movie) Mists of Avalon. Essentially, a divine caster, with a spell list that was part druid part core bard. Core Bardic Music was removed mostly, but in its place were Musics that allowed the bard to match the druid's class abilities... usually weaker and with cost. Example: instead of wildshape, the druidic bard gained a "bardic music": theme of the heartbeast. One shape, chosen when received, never changes, lasts 1 hour. Of course, 1 music per bard level. --- Why do I mention this? Because at certain levels (2nd, 5th, and 8th, matching perform ranks of 5, 8, and 11), the bard could spend a Bardic Music to request the spirits of the area to cast a spell off the druid spell list. Any spell, of 1st, 2nd, or 3rd (matching the 2nd, 5th, and 8th class levels). BUT making the request of the spirits took 1 minute and a Diplomacy check of DC 10 +2/spirit level (max spell level). The bard could hurry the performance, at a cost of +2 DC per round of playing skipped. Success or failure resulted the Bardic Music use still being spent. --- the weakest spirits (1st level spells only) cast everything at CL 1, but were playful: jokes were -2 DC for diplomacy, and cast at the bard's caster level. --- the next level of spirits (up to 2nd level spells) were interested in life and healing: -2 DC and full caster level on healing spells. They were hard to find in artifical areas, though (cities, dungeons, etc.). --- the final level of spirits (up to 3rd level spells) were elemental, and generally disliked being disturbed. They gave bonuses if their element was nearby, and if acting agaisnt an opposing element. So the druidic bard had her Known list of spells, quick casting, full caster level. and could spend bardic music to get the rest of the Druid (not druidic bard, just core Druid, with some Relics and Rituals thrown in) list, up to level 3 spells. Second idea: new campaign starting up. I was thinking to divorce the bard from "arcane" and "divine" entirely, and create "Spellsongs". Partly, your "universal spell, 1 minute, -1 spell level" concept matches that. Basically, the Bard would know 1.5 Songs per class level. Stealing an idea from XPH Psionics (augmentation), the bard would be able to use all his Songs at his full caster level and highest "spell level".. I.e. Lullaby (Sleep) from a 10th level bard is a 4th level spell, and noticably more powerful than Lullaby from a 2nd level bard (1st level spell). However, the Bard would only be able to use 1 Song per day per 2 levels... 10th level bard = 15 Known Songs, 5 4th level effects for the day. (Core bard would have 3 1st, 3 2nd, 3 3rd, and 0* 4th per day, with 14 known spells.) [Perhaps the spellsong bard would be better modelled on the Psychic warrior than a partial Psion...] Finally, the maxi-sorcerer concept. Bards can pick Spells Known from the bard list at level +0; druid list at +1 (Cure light wounds gets bumped up, sorry); wizard and sorc +2. Any other spells can be duplicated at +3 levels (yes, he can steal "proprietary spells" from PrC lists, if he has heard of them). so a 16th level bard could have Animate Dead (either wizard 4+2, or cleric 3+3), Flame Strike (druid 4+1), Hunter's Mercy (ranger 2+3), Polymorph (wizard 4+2), etc. A 13th level bard could have fireball (wiz 3+2); a 7th level bard could have magic missile (wiz 1+2). Stealing a concept, Limited Wish is a 6th level bard spell. --- For further balance against this versatility, the bard's caster level is dropped by 2*the spell level adjustment. Magic Missile is +2 spell levels, and therefore, -4 caster levels. That 7th level bard casting magic missile as a 3rd level spell gets only 2 missiles with it (caster level 3). the 16th level bard casting fireball is still getting 10d6 though (16-4 = 12 > level 10 cap)!