Bardic Knowledge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bardic Knowledge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xorial
01-30-05, 04:28 PM Bardic Knowledge has always been something of a pet peeve of mine. I agree that a Bard can learn a little bit about everything in their travels, but the Bardic Knowledge ability is basically a free skill rank in ALL knowledge skills. That is a little too much to me. I got an idea for an alternate way to handle it. How about making it a competence bonus to all knowledge skill checks. Make it equal to 1/2 class level, rounded down. This would make it a little weaker, but also a little stronger in the Bard would be even better on chosen knowledge skills.

For the Loremaster PrC, which has a similiar ability, you get the bonus for every class level. This would make the PrC a viable choice for Bards.
Moon-Lancer
01-30-05, 05:12 PM the problem is the bard looses alot of flavor and power. also its not really a free skill rank. its just a very usefull ability
Spirit_Golem
01-30-05, 05:53 PM I usually make the bardic knowledge information a bit different from the base knowledge; after all, he did not gain this knowledge through his studies, he gained it through word of mouth.
Ricky
01-31-05, 10:34 AM Bardic Knowledge has always been something of a pet peeve of mine. I agree that a Bard can learn a little bit about everything in their travels, but the Bardic Knowledge ability is basically a free skill rank in ALL knowledge skills.

This is not true. According to the SRD:

Bardic Knowledge

A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places.

In other words, BK is only useful for legendary things. Compare this to the Knowledge skills:

Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts): BK can only be used to identify legendary items or creatures, but not arcane symbols, magical rituals, etc.

Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill.

Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill.

Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill.

History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities): BK can only be used to recall legendary points in history: famous kings, famous wars, etc.

Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids): BK can only be used to recall the local legends, but not laws, customs, etc.

Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill.

Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities): BK can only be used to recall legendary nobility and facts about them, but not the family trees or heraldry of the local duke.

Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead): BK can only be used to recall famous religious figures and events, but not religious rituals, undead characteristics, or holy symbols.

The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill.

As you can see, BK is not every Knowledge skill.
smileybob1
01-31-05, 11:44 AM This is not true. According to the SRD:

In other words, BK is only useful for legendary things. Compare this to the Knowledge skills:

Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts): BK can only be used to identify legendary items or creatures, but not arcane symbols, magical rituals, etc.

Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill.

Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill.

Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill.

History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities): BK can only be used to recall legendary points in history: famous kings, famous wars, etc.

Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids): BK can only be used to recall the local legends, but not laws, customs, etc.

Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill.

Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities): BK can only be used to recall legendary nobility and facts about them, but not the family trees or heraldry of the local duke.

Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead): BK can only be used to recall famous religious figures and events, but not religious rituals, undead characteristics, or holy symbols.

The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill.

As you can see, BK is not every Knowledge skill.

i somewhat disagree with your definitions of what they can cover. but i completely agree with the SRD description. i play a bard and the only time i even contemplate using the bardic knowledge is when i hear a proper noun dropped. i think this is a pretty fair guideline. if something has been specifically named then it probably has some history behind it. bardic knowledge can cover all fields by this guide, but only through specific events, people or places.

for example:

Architecture:
that is the CITADEL OF THE SUN
bardic knowledge: the citadel of the sun was created by the church of lathander, they used massive mirrors to reflect the sun's light (which comes through a giant skylight in the ceiling) throughout the temple. it was the pride of the church during the second age of man

Nature:
what is the JACKALOPE
bardic knowledge: some say this natural beast does not even exist, although it is rumored that it is terribly reclusive and only mates 1 week out of the year. then it hibernates away for the remainder of the year. some even say that only one of the animal even exists and that it is immortal.
Ricky
01-31-05, 12:48 PM Smileybob, you raise a good point. I had not thought of those examples. The main thing to remember, though, is that it only applies to "proper nouns", as you said (which is a great way to put it).
Xorial
02-01-05, 02:17 PM The reason I decided to use this alt rule is I run alot of published adventures when I DM. Apparently Wizards would agree with my take on it. I'm forever gfetting situations where the adventure calls for a Knowledge (arcana) or Bardic Knowledge check; Knowledge (history) or Bardic Knowledge check; Knowledge (local) or Bardic Knowledge check; Knowledge (etcetera) or Bardic Knowledge check. I know what the rules state, but the usage by WoTC and others still compares more favorably with it being free skill ranks.
Cymraegmorgan
02-01-05, 07:41 PM The reason I decided to use this alt rule is I run alot of published adventures when I DM. Apparently Wizards would agree with my take on it. I'm forever gfetting situations where the adventure calls for a Knowledge (arcana) or Bardic Knowledge check; Knowledge (history) or Bardic Knowledge check; Knowledge (local) or Bardic Knowledge check; Knowledge (etcetera) or Bardic Knowledge check. I know what the rules state, but the usage by WoTC and others still compares more favorably with it being free skill ranks.

Yes, Bardic Knowledge can, and often does, work out to be free skill ranks. That is part of the joys of being a Bard. Besides being a performer/caster, the stereotypical Bard is a gatherer and regurgitator of information, rumour, fact and legend.
Xorial
02-02-05, 02:47 PM Yes, Bardic Knowledge can, and often does, work out to be free skill ranks. That is part of the joys of being a Bard. Besides being a performer/caster, the stereotypical Bard is a gatherer and regurgitator of information, rumour, fact and legend.
Which is why I think the mechanic would be better as a competance bonus to existing Knowledge skills. The only other ability compoarable is Wild Empathy. It is just a cool way to give an exclusive skill, without saying it is.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xorial 01-30-05, 04:28 PM	Bardic Knowledge has always been something of a pet peeve of mine. I agree that a Bard can learn a little bit about everything in their travels, but the Bardic Knowledge ability is basically a free skill rank in ALL knowledge skills. That is a little too much to me. I got an idea for an alternate way to handle it. How about making it a competence bonus to all knowledge skill checks. Make it equal to 1/2 class level, rounded down. This would make it a little weaker, but also a little stronger in the Bard would be even better on chosen knowledge skills. For the Loremaster PrC, which has a similiar ability, you get the bonus for every class level. This would make the PrC a viable choice for Bards.
Moon-Lancer 01-30-05, 05:12 PM	the problem is the bard looses alot of flavor and power. also its not really a free skill rank. its just a very usefull ability
Spirit_Golem 01-30-05, 05:53 PM	I usually make the bardic knowledge information a bit different from the base knowledge; after all, he did not gain this knowledge through his studies, he gained it through word of mouth.
Ricky 01-31-05, 10:34 AM	Bardic Knowledge has always been something of a pet peeve of mine. I agree that a Bard can learn a little bit about everything in their travels, but the Bardic Knowledge ability is basically a free skill rank in ALL knowledge skills. This is not true. According to the SRD: Bardic Knowledge A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. In other words, BK is only useful for legendary things. Compare this to the Knowledge skills: Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts): BK can only be used to identify legendary items or creatures, but not arcane symbols, magical rituals, etc. Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill. Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill. Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill. History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities): BK can only be used to recall legendary points in history: famous kings, famous wars, etc. Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids): BK can only be used to recall the local legends, but not laws, customs, etc. Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill. Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities): BK can only be used to recall legendary nobility and facts about them, but not the family trees or heraldry of the local duke. Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead): BK can only be used to recall famous religious figures and events, but not religious rituals, undead characteristics, or holy symbols. The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill. As you can see, BK is not every Knowledge skill.
smileybob1 01-31-05, 11:44 AM	This is not true. According to the SRD: In other words, BK is only useful for legendary things. Compare this to the Knowledge skills: Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts): BK can only be used to identify legendary items or creatures, but not arcane symbols, magical rituals, etc. Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill. Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill. Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill. History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities): BK can only be used to recall legendary points in history: famous kings, famous wars, etc. Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids): BK can only be used to recall the local legends, but not laws, customs, etc. Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill. Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities): BK can only be used to recall legendary nobility and facts about them, but not the family trees or heraldry of the local duke. Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead): BK can only be used to recall famous religious figures and events, but not religious rituals, undead characteristics, or holy symbols. The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes): BK cannot be used to simulate this skill. As you can see, BK is not every Knowledge skill. i somewhat disagree with your definitions of what they can cover. but i completely agree with the SRD description. i play a bard and the only time i even contemplate using the bardic knowledge is when i hear a proper noun dropped. i think this is a pretty fair guideline. if something has been specifically named then it probably has some history behind it. bardic knowledge can cover all fields by this guide, but only through specific events, people or places. for example: Architecture: that is the CITADEL OF THE SUN bardic knowledge: the citadel of the sun was created by the church of lathander, they used massive mirrors to reflect the sun's light (which comes through a giant skylight in the ceiling) throughout the temple. it was the pride of the church during the second age of man Nature: what is the JACKALOPE bardic knowledge: some say this natural beast does not even exist, although it is rumored that it is terribly reclusive and only mates 1 week out of the year. then it hibernates away for the remainder of the year. some even say that only one of the animal even exists and that it is immortal.
Ricky 01-31-05, 12:48 PM	Smileybob, you raise a good point. I had not thought of those examples. The main thing to remember, though, is that it only applies to "proper nouns", as you said (which is a great way to put it).
Xorial 02-01-05, 02:17 PM	The reason I decided to use this alt rule is I run alot of published adventures when I DM. Apparently Wizards would agree with my take on it. I'm forever gfetting situations where the adventure calls for a Knowledge (arcana) or Bardic Knowledge check; Knowledge (history) or Bardic Knowledge check; Knowledge (local) or Bardic Knowledge check; Knowledge (etcetera) or Bardic Knowledge check. I know what the rules state, but the usage by WoTC and others still compares more favorably with it being free skill ranks.
Cymraegmorgan 02-01-05, 07:41 PM	The reason I decided to use this alt rule is I run alot of published adventures when I DM. Apparently Wizards would agree with my take on it. I'm forever gfetting situations where the adventure calls for a Knowledge (arcana) or Bardic Knowledge check; Knowledge (history) or Bardic Knowledge check; Knowledge (local) or Bardic Knowledge check; Knowledge (etcetera) or Bardic Knowledge check. I know what the rules state, but the usage by WoTC and others still compares more favorably with it being free skill ranks. Yes, Bardic Knowledge can, and often does, work out to be free skill ranks. That is part of the joys of being a Bard. Besides being a performer/caster, the stereotypical Bard is a gatherer and regurgitator of information, rumour, fact and legend.
Xorial 02-02-05, 02:47 PM	Yes, Bardic Knowledge can, and often does, work out to be free skill ranks. That is part of the joys of being a Bard. Besides being a performer/caster, the stereotypical Bard is a gatherer and regurgitator of information, rumour, fact and legend. Which is why I think the mechanic would be better as a competance bonus to existing Knowledge skills. The only other ability compoarable is Wild Empathy. It is just a cool way to give an exclusive skill, without saying it is.