% Based Defenses. Not random. [Archive] - Wizards Community

% Based Defenses. Not random. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
EvilVegan
09-22-07, 03:50 PM I've been juggling a concept in the back of my mind for a while. Why aren't there any percentage based defensive abilities in D&D?

Instead of being immune to fire, you would have 100% resistance to fire. Instead of reducing all fire damage by 20/round, you reduce it by 20% from all sources.

It makes more sense to me and furthermore you could base feats off of it.

Like "Pyromancer" lowers enemy fire resistance by 20 %, allowing you to damage even creatures with 100% immunity and causing 20% more damage to creatures with no resistance.

Same with Damage reduction. Instead of 1/- it's 5%/- (minimum 1). So if something hits you for 30201 damage, your DR blocks 1510 of it.

So admittedly it works better for energy resistances. But still.

Any thoughts?
Talisman
09-22-07, 06:37 PM Too much math. D&D is mathy enough as it is. Any time I have to multiply or divide after every attack, it's too mathy.

DR and energy resistance are simple. Not necessarily perfect, but simple. That counts for a lot.
RobbyPants
09-24-07, 03:42 PM Too much math. D&D is mathy enough as it is. Any time I have to multiply or divide after every attack, it's too mathy.

DR and energy resistance are simple. Not necessarily perfect, but simple. That counts for a lot.
That was always my opinion too.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a percentage based system. It's just "difficult". If you were writing a computer game, it might be a cool mechanic. I've thought of all sorts of wierd house rules I'd want to try, and then I think of all the bookkeeping involved. That's one nice thing about video games is that the computer can do a lot of work in the background that you never have to see or deal with.
EvilVegan
09-24-07, 08:45 PM That was always my opinion too.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a percentage based system. It's just "difficult". If you were writing a computer game, it might be a cool mechanic. I've thought of all sorts of wierd house rules I'd want to try, and then I think of all the bookkeeping involved. That's one nice thing about video games is that the computer can do a lot of work in the background that you never have to see or deal with.

I had my brain replaced with computers. :eek:
Lefty
09-25-07, 01:28 PM If armor had hit points you would know when you need to buy
a new set.

Too much math is right, but in a pinch a fighter should have
a fair shot at sweeping the legs, etc.
Krusk
09-25-07, 04:41 PM Too much math. D&D is mathy enough as it is. Any time I have to multiply or divide after every attack, it's too mathy.

DR and energy resistance are simple. Not necessarily perfect, but simple. That counts for a lot.

my thoughts as well.

Im not the best at math, especially when on the spot without paper. So if one of my characters were supposed to take 30% fire damage, id probably end up rounding to 50 or 25 and calling it even. -whichever way hurt myself-

The way it is done speeds things up a ton, but there is no reason not to convert it all to percential if your group is up to it. It probably works a ton easier and quicker, so long as your quicker at the math.
knuck
09-27-07, 01:12 AM I've been juggling a concept in the back of my mind for a while. Why aren't there any percentage based defensive abilities in D&D?

Instead of being immune to fire, you would have 100% resistance to fire. Instead of reducing all fire damage by 20/round, you reduce it by 20% from all sources.

It makes more sense to me and furthermore you could base feats off of it.

Like "Pyromancer" lowers enemy fire resistance by 20 %, allowing you to damage even creatures with 100% immunity and causing 20% more damage to creatures with no resistance.

Same with Damage reduction. Instead of 1/- it's 5%/- (minimum 1). So if something hits you for 30201 damage, your DR blocks 1510 of it.

So admittedly it works better for energy resistances. But still.

Any thoughts?I've had that idea before. I took it from a MMO (therefore it must be bad because mmo stuff in d&d is evil etc). It's an AWESOME concept. It works WONDERS for computer games.
But it's too much math. I'd use it in my table if my players didn't hate math so much. Plus it's pretty easy to calculate %: 5% of 2432 is the same as 5*2432/100. It's just that people never think of % like this and therefore have trouble with it.
EvilVegan
09-27-07, 09:01 AM I've had that idea before. I took it from a MMO (therefore it must be bad because mmo stuff in d&d is evil etc). It's an AWESOME concept. It works WONDERS for computer games.
But it's too much math. I'd use it in my table if my players didn't hate math so much. Plus it's pretty easy to calculate %: 5% of 2432 is the same as 5*2432/100. It's just that people never think of % like this and therefore have trouble with it.I'd do it as half of 243. (.5*2432/10)

15 %? 243 + half again. This is the method I use for calculating tips.

20%? 243 x 2.

5% multiples are easy.

I like percentages because I like thinking of different ways to use numbers easier.
knuck
09-27-07, 02:07 PM The only drawback of using % defense is that the whole damage system would need to be revised. If you had an AC of 5% and took 6 damage, you wouldn't heal anything. Basically, numbers would need to be a bit higher.
EvilVegan
09-27-07, 02:48 PM The only drawback of using % defense is that the whole damage system would need to be revised. If you had an AC of 5% and took 6 damage, you wouldn't heal anything. Basically, numbers would need to be a bit higher.

Good point. In most games you're taking 100s of damage very early, so 20% is a lot. I was thinking the first level of "resistance" would be 20%, not 5" and it can scale up to 100% (or more?)

It was just a thought.
Temrek
09-28-07, 10:09 AM Personally I think % based mechanics add nothing to gameplay. If you are wearing full plate it should be able to stop a dagger much easier then a greatsword. 25% resistance would mean that the armor would stop LESS damage from a dagger then a greatsword. Same thing with burning really, if a creature can tolerate heat up to point x nothing less then x will hurt it.
Ozymandias V.
09-28-07, 12:24 PM Okay, let's say you have fire resistance 20. That means any fire effect under 21 damage does nothing to you. You aren't 100% immune, you are simply capable of shrugging off X amount of damage.

The percentage system can't handle that sort of thing.
SilentOne
09-28-07, 12:59 PM Well, that's exactly it. They're not immune to fire, it just takes a substantial one to hurt them. If I throw a lit candle a wooden wall, it probably won't catch fire immediately. However, if I shoot a flamethrower at it, it'll probably burn very fast. The order of magnitude's what determines how well the thing's resistance protects it.

Look at DR like bulletproof armor. Any shot with less than a certain amount of kinetic energy (essentially speed) won't pierce through to kill the person behind it. Above the threshold, the person will get hit, but the armor will still slow down the bullet some. However, it can only absorb so much energy before separating and letting the bullet pass through. DR 5 - subtracts 5 damage. Anything less than 5 won't go through it at all (stopped by the armor) while anything over 5 will break through, but still be stopped some, resulting in less damage than if it weren't there.
knuck
09-28-07, 03:53 PM The idea of % based system isn't so much to make gameplay more realistic than it is to make it more fair and most imporant, different. Basically, more armor = more def% = take less damage. Plain DR just gets less and less useful, while percent, although at low levels it's almost useless, at high levels it would be just fine. Just a quick example: 2 level 10 characters, one Barbarian and the other Fighter. If the Barbarian hits the Fighter for 60 damage for example, a DR of 4 will make that damage 56, that's a 6% reduction. If he had, say, 40% DR, the damage would go down to 36. A lot more useful and fair.
Lefty
09-28-07, 07:41 PM I'd do it as half of 243. (.5*2432/10)

15 %? 243 + half again. This is the method I use for calculating tips.

20%? 243 x 2.

5% multiples are easy.

I like percentages because I like thinking of different ways to use numbers easier.

You've got a system, but you can't turn 2432 into 243...
Changing 2432 into 24.32 (one percent) is a good idea

I kept staring at this post trying to figure out what you are
doing

Nice actually

Lefty<--won a free cruise but has no GF

Tick Tock, in 48 hours I lose the two trips after

It would be nice to have a 72% Summon Supermodel right now
I think I am looking at more of a .01..%

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EvilVegan 09-22-07, 03:50 PM	I've been juggling a concept in the back of my mind for a while. Why aren't there any percentage based defensive abilities in D&D? Instead of being immune to fire, you would have 100% resistance to fire. Instead of reducing all fire damage by 20/round, you reduce it by 20% from all sources. It makes more sense to me and furthermore you could base feats off of it. Like "Pyromancer" lowers enemy fire resistance by 20 %, allowing you to damage even creatures with 100% immunity and causing 20% more damage to creatures with no resistance. Same with Damage reduction. Instead of 1/- it's 5%/- (minimum 1). So if something hits you for 30201 damage, your DR blocks 1510 of it. So admittedly it works better for energy resistances. But still. Any thoughts?
Talisman 09-22-07, 06:37 PM	Too much math. D&D is mathy enough as it is. Any time I have to multiply or divide after every attack, it's too mathy. DR and energy resistance are simple. Not necessarily perfect, but simple. That counts for a lot.
RobbyPants 09-24-07, 03:42 PM	Too much math. D&D is mathy enough as it is. Any time I have to multiply or divide after every attack, it's too mathy. DR and energy resistance are simple. Not necessarily perfect, but simple. That counts for a lot. That was always my opinion too. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a percentage based system. It's just "difficult". If you were writing a computer game, it might be a cool mechanic. I've thought of all sorts of wierd house rules I'd want to try, and then I think of all the bookkeeping involved. That's one nice thing about video games is that the computer can do a lot of work in the background that you never have to see or deal with.
EvilVegan 09-24-07, 08:45 PM	That was always my opinion too. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a percentage based system. It's just "difficult". If you were writing a computer game, it might be a cool mechanic. I've thought of all sorts of wierd house rules I'd want to try, and then I think of all the bookkeeping involved. That's one nice thing about video games is that the computer can do a lot of work in the background that you never have to see or deal with. I had my brain replaced with computers. :eek:
Lefty 09-25-07, 01:28 PM	If armor had hit points you would know when you need to buy a new set. Too much math is right, but in a pinch a fighter should have a fair shot at sweeping the legs, etc.
Krusk 09-25-07, 04:41 PM	Too much math. D&D is mathy enough as it is. Any time I have to multiply or divide after every attack, it's too mathy. DR and energy resistance are simple. Not necessarily perfect, but simple. That counts for a lot. my thoughts as well. Im not the best at math, especially when on the spot without paper. So if one of my characters were supposed to take 30% fire damage, id probably end up rounding to 50 or 25 and calling it even. -whichever way hurt myself- The way it is done speeds things up a ton, but there is no reason not to convert it all to percential if your group is up to it. It probably works a ton easier and quicker, so long as your quicker at the math.
knuck 09-27-07, 01:12 AM	I've been juggling a concept in the back of my mind for a while. Why aren't there any percentage based defensive abilities in D&D? Instead of being immune to fire, you would have 100% resistance to fire. Instead of reducing all fire damage by 20/round, you reduce it by 20% from all sources. It makes more sense to me and furthermore you could base feats off of it. Like "Pyromancer" lowers enemy fire resistance by 20 %, allowing you to damage even creatures with 100% immunity and causing 20% more damage to creatures with no resistance. Same with Damage reduction. Instead of 1/- it's 5%/- (minimum 1). So if something hits you for 30201 damage, your DR blocks 1510 of it. So admittedly it works better for energy resistances. But still. Any thoughts?I've had that idea before. I took it from a MMO (therefore it must be bad because mmo stuff in d&d is evil etc). It's an AWESOME concept. It works WONDERS for computer games. But it's too much math. I'd use it in my table if my players didn't hate math so much. Plus it's pretty easy to calculate %: 5% of 2432 is the same as 5*2432/100. It's just that people never think of % like this and therefore have trouble with it.
EvilVegan 09-27-07, 09:01 AM	I've had that idea before. I took it from a MMO (therefore it must be bad because mmo stuff in d&d is evil etc). It's an AWESOME concept. It works WONDERS for computer games. But it's too much math. I'd use it in my table if my players didn't hate math so much. Plus it's pretty easy to calculate %: 5% of 2432 is the same as 52432/100. It's just that people never think of % like this and therefore have trouble with it.I'd do it as half of 243. (.52432/10) 15 %? 243 + half again. This is the method I use for calculating tips. 20%? 243 x 2. 5% multiples are easy. I like percentages because I like thinking of different ways to use numbers easier.
knuck 09-27-07, 02:07 PM	The only drawback of using % defense is that the whole damage system would need to be revised. If you had an AC of 5% and took 6 damage, you wouldn't heal anything. Basically, numbers would need to be a bit higher.
EvilVegan 09-27-07, 02:48 PM	The only drawback of using % defense is that the whole damage system would need to be revised. If you had an AC of 5% and took 6 damage, you wouldn't heal anything. Basically, numbers would need to be a bit higher. Good point. In most games you're taking 100s of damage very early, so 20% is a lot. I was thinking the first level of "resistance" would be 20%, not 5" and it can scale up to 100% (or more?) It was just a thought.
Temrek 09-28-07, 10:09 AM	Personally I think % based mechanics add nothing to gameplay. If you are wearing full plate it should be able to stop a dagger much easier then a greatsword. 25% resistance would mean that the armor would stop LESS damage from a dagger then a greatsword. Same thing with burning really, if a creature can tolerate heat up to point x nothing less then x will hurt it.
Ozymandias V. 09-28-07, 12:24 PM	Okay, let's say you have fire resistance 20. That means any fire effect under 21 damage does nothing to you. You aren't 100% immune, you are simply capable of shrugging off X amount of damage. The percentage system can't handle that sort of thing.
SilentOne 09-28-07, 12:59 PM	Well, that's exactly it. They're not immune to fire, it just takes a substantial one to hurt them. If I throw a lit candle a wooden wall, it probably won't catch fire immediately. However, if I shoot a flamethrower at it, it'll probably burn very fast. The order of magnitude's what determines how well the thing's resistance protects it. Look at DR like bulletproof armor. Any shot with less than a certain amount of kinetic energy (essentially speed) won't pierce through to kill the person behind it. Above the threshold, the person will get hit, but the armor will still slow down the bullet some. However, it can only absorb so much energy before separating and letting the bullet pass through. DR 5 - subtracts 5 damage. Anything less than 5 won't go through it at all (stopped by the armor) while anything over 5 will break through, but still be stopped some, resulting in less damage than if it weren't there.
knuck 09-28-07, 03:53 PM	The idea of % based system isn't so much to make gameplay more realistic than it is to make it more fair and most imporant, different. Basically, more armor = more def% = take less damage. Plain DR just gets less and less useful, while percent, although at low levels it's almost useless, at high levels it would be just fine. Just a quick example: 2 level 10 characters, one Barbarian and the other Fighter. If the Barbarian hits the Fighter for 60 damage for example, a DR of 4 will make that damage 56, that's a 6% reduction. If he had, say, 40% DR, the damage would go down to 36. A lot more useful and fair.
Lefty 09-28-07, 07:41 PM	I'd do it as half of 243. (.5*2432/10) 15 %? 243 + half again. This is the method I use for calculating tips. 20%? 243 x 2. 5% multiples are easy. I like percentages because I like thinking of different ways to use numbers easier. You've got a system, but you can't turn 2432 into 243... Changing 2432 into 24.32 (one percent) is a good idea I kept staring at this post trying to figure out what you are doing Nice actually Lefty<--won a free cruise but has no GF Tick Tock, in 48 hours I lose the two trips after It would be nice to have a 72% Summon Supermodel right now I think I am looking at more of a .01..%