Battle Sorcerer changed to battle Wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Battle Sorcerer changed to battle Wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Steelgryphon
08-15-04, 07:41 PM I was thinking about adding the wizard spell casting side to the Battler Sorcerer, Would just droping the sorcerer spells perday-1 and spells known and replacing them with the wizard spells per day and spells known balance it or would i have to nerf sumtin
mhacdebhandia
08-16-04, 04:34 AM The problem is that there's no such thing as "wizard spells known". The spells a wizard gains for free as her level increases combine with the scribing of found spells into her spellbook to determine the spells she can cast, but that second element can vary wildly with individual campaigns.

What are you trying to achieve? Do you think the battle sorcerer is overpowered?
Wizardman
08-16-04, 05:43 AM Steelgryphon, you would have to nerf something else to make a Battle Wizard.

Getting rid of all the bonus feats- including scribe scroll- as well as casting one fewer spell per day would be a good start, but in the interests of balance you might want to go further. An improved HD and BAB, plus one free (with some limitations) MWP not to mention proficiency with and the ability to freely cast in light armour... is worth at least five bonus feats (in the standard 20 levels campaign).
Steelgryphon
08-16-04, 08:18 AM Well if i Kept the BaB and the augmented HD and i droped the weapon proff's to what the wizard has now +1 one handed martial weapon and light armor (no ASP)

as well as drop all bonus feats and negate spell specilization

would that make it balanced

and mhacdebhandia, no i do not find the Battle sorc over powerd, i just have a thing for prepared spell casters
Drake_the_Windseeker
08-18-04, 10:11 AM Now this is cheeky. I think, while the Battle Sorcerer is a better version overall from the original 3.0 or 3.5 Sorcerer (no big difference between the two, really), the idea of a "Battle Wizard" is just lame. The Wizard is, arguably, the most powerful of the arcane spellcasting classes, and should be kept a wussy when it comes to using weapons and armor, in my opinion. The Battle Sorcerer is an interesting idea, in my opinion, because its like a cleric in the sense that it almost seamlessly binds a fighting ability with a reasonable, not overpowering, spellcasting ability. The Wizard should always remain in the back of the line, casting spells to hurt the monsters and aid her companions.
Steelgryphon
08-18-04, 10:32 AM ok dumb idea
Ao
08-18-04, 03:41 PM Originally posted by Steelgryphon
I was thinking about adding the wizard spell casting side to the Battler Sorcerer, Would just droping the sorcerer spells perday-1 and spells known and replacing them with the wizard spells per day and spells known balance it or would i have to nerf sumtin

Why not? If the formula for creating a battle-sorcerer from the core sorcerer class works, and the core classes are considered balanced in regard to one another, then the formula could be used to create a battle-wizard from the core wizard. Removing one spell slot from spells per day will significantly affect the battle-wizard (two-0 level spells, zero-1st level spells at level 1). The battle-wizard will have 3 spells of level 0 through 9 at level 20, the ability to wear and cast in light armor (War-mage as well as some PrCs), D8 for hit die, 3/4 BAB (clerics, druids), and a free martial weapon proficiency (can we all say Elves?). Other classes have abilities which rival or even exceed these abilities. The UA has formula for creating spontaneous casters from core prepared casters with no changes to class abilities other than spell casting. What would be so unbalancing?
Axelos
08-20-04, 06:39 PM Originally posted by Drake_the_Windseeker
I think, while the Battle Sorcerer is a better version overall from the original 3.0 or 3.5 Sorcerer (no big difference between the two, really), the idea of a "Battle Wizard" is just lame. The Wizard is, arguably, the most powerful of the arcane spellcasting classes, and should be kept a wussy when it comes to using weapons and armor, in my opinion. The Battle Sorcerer is an interesting idea, in my opinion, because its like a cleric in the sense that it almost seamlessly binds a fighting ability with a reasonable, not overpowering, spellcasting ability. The Wizard should always remain in the back of the line, casting spells to hurt the monsters and aid her companions.

Interestingly, I have an entirely different opinion on the matter.

To me, the wizard chooses to be a wizard, so one ought to be able to choose to be less of a wizard than others and instead hone his combat prowess. One way to do this of course is to multiclass, but creating an alternate combat-oriented wizard class seems like another perfectly viable option to me.

On the other hand, a sorcerer's ability is natural, not requiring focus and study the a wizard's does. As a result, I cannot see a person saying, "I will reduce my natural spellcasting ability in order to develop my combat prowess." It makes no sense to me.

I guess it all comes down to what your opinion of a wizard is.
SMW
08-20-04, 06:48 PM Two Words: War Mage

It is a base class from the Miniatures Handbook. They are wizards who wear armor (Eventually medium)
Ricardo Martinez Garza
08-20-04, 11:53 PM Originally posted by SMW
Two Words: War Mage

The idea isn't bad, but having a spell list is really way too limiting, I rather have a limited number of spells known where I could choose the ones that fit better my tactics.
Nazzareth
08-21-04, 08:00 PM If you want a war wizard take the arcane disciple feat from the complete divine and use it to get access to the war domian spell list now you have access to the divine power spell.

Take ten levels of incantantrix and persistant spell it at level 18th level.
Kildayen
08-31-04, 07:11 PM I would remove one spell slot per level per day, just as with the battle sorcerer. Then have them choose two schools of magic to give up, as though they were specializing. I would let them keep the bonus feats, but make them choose between the fighter list (except fighter-only feats) and the wizard list. Everything else would be like the battle sorcerer.
Count Arioch the 28th
08-31-04, 07:36 PM The Wizard is, arguably, the most powerful of the arcane spellcasting classes, and should be kept a wussy when it comes to using weapons and armor, in my opinion.

So, you don't mind that clerics and druids cast better spells than wizards, and yet have higher HD and can cast in armor? I think you haven't looked at clerics and druids too closely at all.
tompulsar
09-09-04, 05:46 AM I think this is a good idea and have been looking for a simle kind of arcane knight for a while I think this fits the bill nicely, especially yours Kildayen. I'll probably just make them take fighter feats as their bonus feats for flavor reasons however.
tompulsar
09-09-04, 08:24 AM Something like this?

Wizard Variant:
BATTLE MAGE

Hit die: d8
Base attack bonus: The battle mage uses the base attack bonus of the cleric.
Class Skills: Remove Decipher Script from the battle mage’s class list. Add Intimidate to the battle mage’s class list.

Class Features
The battle mage has the standard wizard class features except as noted below.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: At first level, the battle wizard gains proficiency with all simple weapons and one light or one-handed martial weapon of the character’s choice. He also gains proficiency with light armor.

Spellcasting: A battle mage can cast wizard spells derived from her class level while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.
The battle mage is somewhat limited in the spellcasting art compared to a common wizard. The battle mage loses one spell slot from his maximum spells slots per day for each spell level (whenever the normal wizard spell slot progression would rise to 4 spell slots for a given level, for the battle mage it remains at 3 per day). Also the battle mage must give up two schools of magic that become his prohibited schools. This functions in exactly the same way a normal wizard chooses his prohibited schools for specialization purposes except the battle mage gains no bonus spell slots and no skill bonuses relating to any other schools of magic.

Bonus feats: The battle mage loses the Scribe Scroll feat and instead gains a bonus feat at 1st level. The battle mage must choose bonus feats from the fighter list of bonus feats. The battle mage must still meet the feat prerequisites in order to choose a feat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Steelgryphon 08-15-04, 07:41 PM	I was thinking about adding the wizard spell casting side to the Battler Sorcerer, Would just droping the sorcerer spells perday-1 and spells known and replacing them with the wizard spells per day and spells known balance it or would i have to nerf sumtin
mhacdebhandia 08-16-04, 04:34 AM	The problem is that there's no such thing as "wizard spells known". The spells a wizard gains for free as her level increases combine with the scribing of found spells into her spellbook to determine the spells she can cast, but that second element can vary wildly with individual campaigns. What are you trying to achieve? Do you think the battle sorcerer is overpowered?
Wizardman 08-16-04, 05:43 AM	Steelgryphon, you would have to nerf something else to make a Battle Wizard. Getting rid of all the bonus feats- including scribe scroll- as well as casting one fewer spell per day would be a good start, but in the interests of balance you might want to go further. An improved HD and BAB, plus one free (with some limitations) MWP not to mention proficiency with and the ability to freely cast in light armour... is worth at least five bonus feats (in the standard 20 levels campaign).
Steelgryphon 08-16-04, 08:18 AM	Well if i Kept the BaB and the augmented HD and i droped the weapon proff's to what the wizard has now +1 one handed martial weapon and light armor (no ASP) as well as drop all bonus feats and negate spell specilization would that make it balanced and mhacdebhandia, no i do not find the Battle sorc over powerd, i just have a thing for prepared spell casters
Drake_the_Windseeker 08-18-04, 10:11 AM	Now this is cheeky. I think, while the Battle Sorcerer is a better version overall from the original 3.0 or 3.5 Sorcerer (no big difference between the two, really), the idea of a "Battle Wizard" is just lame. The Wizard is, arguably, the most powerful of the arcane spellcasting classes, and should be kept a wussy when it comes to using weapons and armor, in my opinion. The Battle Sorcerer is an interesting idea, in my opinion, because its like a cleric in the sense that it almost seamlessly binds a fighting ability with a reasonable, not overpowering, spellcasting ability. The Wizard should always remain in the back of the line, casting spells to hurt the monsters and aid her companions.
Steelgryphon 08-18-04, 10:32 AM	ok dumb idea
Ao 08-18-04, 03:41 PM	Originally posted by Steelgryphon I was thinking about adding the wizard spell casting side to the Battler Sorcerer, Would just droping the sorcerer spells perday-1 and spells known and replacing them with the wizard spells per day and spells known balance it or would i have to nerf sumtin Why not? If the formula for creating a battle-sorcerer from the core sorcerer class works, and the core classes are considered balanced in regard to one another, then the formula could be used to create a battle-wizard from the core wizard. Removing one spell slot from spells per day will significantly affect the battle-wizard (two-0 level spells, zero-1st level spells at level 1). The battle-wizard will have 3 spells of level 0 through 9 at level 20, the ability to wear and cast in light armor (War-mage as well as some PrCs), D8 for hit die, 3/4 BAB (clerics, druids), and a free martial weapon proficiency (can we all say Elves?). Other classes have abilities which rival or even exceed these abilities. The UA has formula for creating spontaneous casters from core prepared casters with no changes to class abilities other than spell casting. What would be so unbalancing?
Axelos 08-20-04, 06:39 PM	Originally posted by Drake_the_Windseeker I think, while the Battle Sorcerer is a better version overall from the original 3.0 or 3.5 Sorcerer (no big difference between the two, really), the idea of a "Battle Wizard" is just lame. The Wizard is, arguably, the most powerful of the arcane spellcasting classes, and should be kept a wussy when it comes to using weapons and armor, in my opinion. The Battle Sorcerer is an interesting idea, in my opinion, because its like a cleric in the sense that it almost seamlessly binds a fighting ability with a reasonable, not overpowering, spellcasting ability. The Wizard should always remain in the back of the line, casting spells to hurt the monsters and aid her companions. Interestingly, I have an entirely different opinion on the matter. To me, the wizard chooses to be a wizard, so one ought to be able to choose to be less of a wizard than others and instead hone his combat prowess. One way to do this of course is to multiclass, but creating an alternate combat-oriented wizard class seems like another perfectly viable option to me. On the other hand, a sorcerer's ability is natural, not requiring focus and study the a wizard's does. As a result, I cannot see a person saying, "I will reduce my natural spellcasting ability in order to develop my combat prowess." It makes no sense to me. I guess it all comes down to what your opinion of a wizard is.
SMW 08-20-04, 06:48 PM	Two Words: War Mage It is a base class from the Miniatures Handbook. They are wizards who wear armor (Eventually medium)
Ricardo Martinez Garza 08-20-04, 11:53 PM	Originally posted by SMW Two Words: War Mage The idea isn't bad, but having a spell list is really way too limiting, I rather have a limited number of spells known where I could choose the ones that fit better my tactics.
Nazzareth 08-21-04, 08:00 PM	If you want a war wizard take the arcane disciple feat from the complete divine and use it to get access to the war domian spell list now you have access to the divine power spell. Take ten levels of incantantrix and persistant spell it at level 18th level.
Kildayen 08-31-04, 07:11 PM	I would remove one spell slot per level per day, just as with the battle sorcerer. Then have them choose two schools of magic to give up, as though they were specializing. I would let them keep the bonus feats, but make them choose between the fighter list (except fighter-only feats) and the wizard list. Everything else would be like the battle sorcerer.
Count Arioch the 28th 08-31-04, 07:36 PM	The Wizard is, arguably, the most powerful of the arcane spellcasting classes, and should be kept a wussy when it comes to using weapons and armor, in my opinion. So, you don't mind that clerics and druids cast better spells than wizards, and yet have higher HD and can cast in armor? I think you haven't looked at clerics and druids too closely at all.
tompulsar 09-09-04, 05:46 AM	I think this is a good idea and have been looking for a simle kind of arcane knight for a while I think this fits the bill nicely, especially yours Kildayen. I'll probably just make them take fighter feats as their bonus feats for flavor reasons however.
tompulsar 09-09-04, 08:24 AM	Something like this? Wizard Variant: BATTLE MAGE Hit die: d8 Base attack bonus: The battle mage uses the base attack bonus of the cleric. Class Skills: Remove Decipher Script from the battle mage’s class list. Add Intimidate to the battle mage’s class list. Class Features The battle mage has the standard wizard class features except as noted below. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: At first level, the battle wizard gains proficiency with all simple weapons and one light or one-handed martial weapon of the character’s choice. He also gains proficiency with light armor. Spellcasting: A battle mage can cast wizard spells derived from her class level while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance. The battle mage is somewhat limited in the spellcasting art compared to a common wizard. The battle mage loses one spell slot from his maximum spells slots per day for each spell level (whenever the normal wizard spell slot progression would rise to 4 spell slots for a given level, for the battle mage it remains at 3 per day). Also the battle mage must give up two schools of magic that become his prohibited schools. This functions in exactly the same way a normal wizard chooses his prohibited schools for specialization purposes except the battle mage gains no bonus spell slots and no skill bonuses relating to any other schools of magic. Bonus feats: The battle mage loses the Scribe Scroll feat and instead gains a bonus feat at 1st level. The battle mage must choose bonus feats from the fighter list of bonus feats. The battle mage must still meet the feat prerequisites in order to choose a feat.