Better Berserker Rage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Better Berserker Rage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_Hedgewizard
07-26-07, 05:28 PM I got bored the other few days back, so I redesigned all the DnD base classes and races myself. Since I just made a post about the barbarian a while back though, I'm now curious to see what people think of the way I changed rage. Basically, I made an attempt to combine the normal rage rules with the unearthed arcana variant and some of the mechanics from the frenzied berserker PrC, all in an attempt to improved the barbarian mostly, but also to give his rage a lot more 'flavor', in my eyes at least. Let me know what you think honestly (but politely). Thanks.

Berserker Rage: When a barbarian's current hit point total falls below 5 x the barbarian's level he or she flies into a berserker rage which lasts for 3 + Constitution modifier rounds. While in rage the barbarian gains +2 to Strength and Constitution and +1 to all saves against spells and spell like effects. However, he or she cannot use any skills or activate any items which require concentration (see SRD rage restrictions), and becomes fatigued afterwards for the duration of the current encounter in which he or she raged. A barbarian can only fly into a rage once per encounter, but may willingly attempt to prevent doing so by making a Will save DC against 10 + points of damage taken since last his or her last action. Any healing on a barbarian while raging that brings his or her hit point total above his or her rage threshold will not cause his rage to end automatically, but the barbarian can attempt a single DC 20 Will save as a free action at that point to end his or her rage. The hit point bonus from Constitution increasing however does not allow the barbarian to make an attempt to end his rage, only healing that brings his or her hit point total above his or her rage threshold if the barbarian is below it allows such. Alternatively, a barbarian may work him or herself into a rage by self-inflicting wounds (to the point he or she would normally rage at). This is a full round round action, and is draining, allowing the barbarian to do this once per day plus 1 per 4 barbarian levels. A barbarian who enters a rage by self-inflicting wounds is considered bleeding, and loses 1 hit point a round and suffers a -2 penalty to AC as long as the rage lasts. A. For every 5 levels of barbarian until 20 , the Strength and Constitution bonuses increase by +2 and the morale bonus to saves against spells by +1.
Krusk
07-26-07, 06:32 PM However, he or she cannot use any skills (except Intimidate).

My one point, no skills aside from intimidate? No more leaping at my enemies? No more climbing the tree to get at the archer? No more not drowinging if i am in/near the water? Maybe just limit it to physical skills and intimidate.
The_Hedgewizard
07-26-07, 07:51 PM Skills that require concentration. Sorry. I was lazy and didn't copy down the entire SRD text right. The restrictions are exactly the same as in there.
runestar
07-27-07, 12:20 AM So if your barb does not receive any healing, he can only enter this rage 1/day at most, even at lv20? How does this make it any stronger than the berserker rage variant, which is already very weak to begin with?:confused:
The_Hedgewizard
07-27-07, 08:38 AM So if your barb does not receive any healing, he can only enter this rage 1/day at most, even at lv20? How does this make it any stronger than the berserker rage variant, which is already very weak to begin with?

Either I didn't explain things very well, or, more likely, I think you've completely misunderstood the rules I wrote out. He can enter a rage from taking damage *any number of times* per day. Any time he drops below his rage threshold (5 x barbarian level HP) he goes into a rage. He *can* (not has to) attempt to come out of a rage, say to use a magic item, if he is brought above his rage threshold through healing. He can *also* self-inflict wounds on himself as a full round action a number of times per day equal to 1 + 1 per 4 barbarian levels (dropping him to his rage threshold in HP). This means a 20th level barbarian would be raging for +10 to Str and CON and +5 to all saves *any time he fell below his rage threshold in combat* and *additionally* could cause himself to go into a frenzy 6 times per day. The rage lasts for the entire duration (3 + CON modifier rounds). He does not automatically come out of a rage if he is healed (in fact, he has to make a Will save to do so). Is this clear now? I can't think of another way to explain this really. Basically, it's both the berserker rage variant and standard rage.
Krusk
07-27-07, 02:12 PM except it now takes a full round to enter rage on your own?
The_Hedgewizard
07-27-07, 07:10 PM Yeah. You don't think having both automatic rage and rage work the standard way would be overpowered? I kind of thought the latter should require a bit a of penalty of sorts to balance things out. Hence the bleeding and full round action requirement. You think a full round action is too much?
Krusk
07-28-07, 06:25 AM I thinkit is very much too much. No one will spend an entire round standing there, when the option to attack yourself and hope you deal enough damage to put yourself below threshold exists. At worst make it a standard action, but i would say move. Just a quick slash sould be enough, and thats really no more effort than drinking a potion.

Personally though, I really like the way rage works, so i wouldnt change it.
The_Hedgewizard
07-28-07, 07:10 AM No one will spend an entire round standing there, when the option to attack yourself and hope you deal enough damage to put yourself below threshold exists.

You are probably right. I started off changing the class with the idea it is damned near impossible to make warrior classes overpowered in D&D, but for some reason I just seemed to keep feeling giving the barbarian both the berserker rage variant (which can happen any number of times per day when your hp drops) and the standard rage (choosing to throw yourself into a rage regardless of hp) was too much. But I suppose it probably isn't.

Now that I think about it, I think I'll remove the bit about self-induced rages automatically dropping you to your rage threshold in hp too. Will probably leave the bleeding effect and AC penalty though.
HidaAkira
07-28-07, 09:25 AM The weakest aspect of the whole rage bit is that you eventually get to use it several times per day, and in most cases you need no more than one or two. Taking a hint from divine feats for using those unused turning attempts, I made these.

comments appreciated.

(initiating these effects is a free action)

Raging Vitality
Prerequisites: Constitution 15+, Rage 3/day
Benefit: You may spend one of your rages to gain fast healing 2 while in rage. This fast healing lasts as long as your rage would.

Armor of Rage
Prereqisites: Constitution 13+, rage 2/day
Benefit: You may spend one of your rages to gain +4 natural armor bonus while enraged. This bonus lasts as long as your rage normally would.

Raging Resistance
Prerequisites: Constitution 13+, Rage 2/day
Benefit: You may spend one of your rages to gain a +4 morale bonus to all saves while enraged. This bonus lasts as long as your rage normally would.
The_Hedgewizard
07-28-07, 11:02 PM Really good idea. I was trying to think of a way to give the barbarian fast healing myself, but couldn't think of a good way to do it. Not sure about the will save one though, with indomitable will and the morale bonus from raging you might as well just give them good will saves period. Otherwise, I like them. The only downside, which isn't really your fault, is that I'm not sure if most barbs would have the feats to spare on these kinds of feats. Perhaps just make a single feat that lets you spend differing usages of rage with differing requirements to get different benefits? I think most barbs could spare one feat and then they'd have something to do with those extra rages (assuming they met the reqs.).
HidaAkira
07-29-07, 01:43 AM I thought about that, but then you risk making the feat so good one would have to be stupid not to take it. I suppose one could say the same about Power Attack (for babarians at least) but making these into something akin to tactical feats would be difficult.
Look at the divine feats. Most paladins and clerics don't have many feats to spare either, and yet these effects rarely do more than one thing. And getting fast healing from a feat is rather powerful. So is being able to gain +4 to all saves (not just Will). And gaining an effective +2 bonus to AC while in rage.

If you don't like the heavy will boost, just say that the feat doesn't stack with the rage bonus.

One way of improving this is saying that the feats get better as the rage improves. For instace Raging Vitality grants fast healing 2 for normal rage, 3 for greater and 4 for mighty.
The others would improve similarly.

This would increase the likelyhood of people finishing the Barbarian class rather than just dipping into it for a level or two.

You could also try this new one

Shield of Rage
Prerequisites: Rage 2/day, Con 13+
Benefit: You may sacrifice one of your daily rages in order to increase your Damage Reduction X/- by 2. This increases to +3 if you have hte Greater Rage ability, and to +4 if you have the Mighty Rage ability.
This ability lasts as long as your normal rage.

Sure, DR 9/- is pretty nice, but once you get to 20th level, most challenging enemies are going to be doing so much more damage that this doesn't really make all that big a difference.
The_Hedgewizard
07-29-07, 03:05 AM Look at the divine feats. Most paladins and clerics don't have many feats to spare either, and yet these effects rarely do more than one thing.

That is very true, but then I don't think clerics really need any kind of a power boost. I suppose another way to control it would be to make more powerful ones require the sacrifice of more than one rage. Still, the general idea is really good. Have you ever actually played with these out of curiosity?
HidaAkira
07-29-07, 09:05 AM Not yet. The games where these would be allowable I'm either GM or the characters don't have the rage ability.

If you don't like feats, you can try these ideas:

- reduce duration by 1 round to increase AC by 1
- reduce 1 round to gain DR 1/- (that stacks with existing Barbarian DR)
- reduce duration by 1 round to improve saves by 1
- reduce duration by 3/4 rounds to gain an extra attack per round at your highest attack bonus
- Reduce duration by 1 to gain +2 to all damage rolls
- reduce duration by 1 round to gain +10 movement
- reduce duration by 1 round to gain +1 to all attacks

(the Extend Rage feat will suddenly become very nice with this option)
And I just thought this up now, so I have no idea how this works in-game
zephyrTR
07-30-07, 12:59 PM Why would a barbarian only need 1 or 2 rages a day? What if you're in a dungeon and are in and out of combat for like 5 hours?

I like the idea of making rage not self-induced. Try this out:

Any time a barb would be critted, sneak attacked, at critical health, feared (and maybe compelled) a barb goes into rage. Fatigue or Exhaustion prevents this.

You could make a feat to self-induce rage a number of times per day equal to your CON modifier or something. That might make things too powerful though.
HidaAkira
07-31-07, 01:44 AM Notice that I said "in most cases".
At least this was my experience with ragers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Hedgewizard 07-26-07, 05:28 PM	I got bored the other few days back, so I redesigned all the DnD base classes and races myself. Since I just made a post about the barbarian a while back though, I'm now curious to see what people think of the way I changed rage. Basically, I made an attempt to combine the normal rage rules with the unearthed arcana variant and some of the mechanics from the frenzied berserker PrC, all in an attempt to improved the barbarian mostly, but also to give his rage a lot more 'flavor', in my eyes at least. Let me know what you think honestly (but politely). Thanks. Berserker Rage: When a barbarian's current hit point total falls below 5 x the barbarian's level he or she flies into a berserker rage which lasts for 3 + Constitution modifier rounds. While in rage the barbarian gains +2 to Strength and Constitution and +1 to all saves against spells and spell like effects. However, he or she cannot use any skills or activate any items which require concentration (see SRD rage restrictions), and becomes fatigued afterwards for the duration of the current encounter in which he or she raged. A barbarian can only fly into a rage once per encounter, but may willingly attempt to prevent doing so by making a Will save DC against 10 + points of damage taken since last his or her last action. Any healing on a barbarian while raging that brings his or her hit point total above his or her rage threshold will not cause his rage to end automatically, but the barbarian can attempt a single DC 20 Will save as a free action at that point to end his or her rage. The hit point bonus from Constitution increasing however does not allow the barbarian to make an attempt to end his rage, only healing that brings his or her hit point total above his or her rage threshold if the barbarian is below it allows such. Alternatively, a barbarian may work him or herself into a rage by self-inflicting wounds (to the point he or she would normally rage at). This is a full round round action, and is draining, allowing the barbarian to do this once per day plus 1 per 4 barbarian levels. A barbarian who enters a rage by self-inflicting wounds is considered bleeding, and loses 1 hit point a round and suffers a -2 penalty to AC as long as the rage lasts. A. For every 5 levels of barbarian until 20 , the Strength and Constitution bonuses increase by +2 and the morale bonus to saves against spells by +1.
Krusk 07-26-07, 06:32 PM	However, he or she cannot use any skills (except Intimidate). My one point, no skills aside from intimidate? No more leaping at my enemies? No more climbing the tree to get at the archer? No more not drowinging if i am in/near the water? Maybe just limit it to physical skills and intimidate.
The_Hedgewizard 07-26-07, 07:51 PM	Skills that require concentration. Sorry. I was lazy and didn't copy down the entire SRD text right. The restrictions are exactly the same as in there.
runestar 07-27-07, 12:20 AM	So if your barb does not receive any healing, he can only enter this rage 1/day at most, even at lv20? How does this make it any stronger than the berserker rage variant, which is already very weak to begin with?:confused:
The_Hedgewizard 07-27-07, 08:38 AM	So if your barb does not receive any healing, he can only enter this rage 1/day at most, even at lv20? How does this make it any stronger than the berserker rage variant, which is already very weak to begin with? Either I didn't explain things very well, or, more likely, I think you've completely misunderstood the rules I wrote out. He can enter a rage from taking damage any number of times per day. Any time he drops below his rage threshold (5 x barbarian level HP) he goes into a rage. He can (not has to) attempt to come out of a rage, say to use a magic item, if he is brought above his rage threshold through healing. He can also self-inflict wounds on himself as a full round action a number of times per day equal to 1 + 1 per 4 barbarian levels (dropping him to his rage threshold in HP). This means a 20th level barbarian would be raging for +10 to Str and CON and +5 to all saves any time he fell below his rage threshold in combat and additionally could cause himself to go into a frenzy 6 times per day. The rage lasts for the entire duration (3 + CON modifier rounds). He does not automatically come out of a rage if he is healed (in fact, he has to make a Will save to do so). Is this clear now? I can't think of another way to explain this really. Basically, it's both the berserker rage variant and standard rage.
Krusk 07-27-07, 02:12 PM	except it now takes a full round to enter rage on your own?
The_Hedgewizard 07-27-07, 07:10 PM	Yeah. You don't think having both automatic rage and rage work the standard way would be overpowered? I kind of thought the latter should require a bit a of penalty of sorts to balance things out. Hence the bleeding and full round action requirement. You think a full round action is too much?
Krusk 07-28-07, 06:25 AM	I thinkit is very much too much. No one will spend an entire round standing there, when the option to attack yourself and hope you deal enough damage to put yourself below threshold exists. At worst make it a standard action, but i would say move. Just a quick slash sould be enough, and thats really no more effort than drinking a potion. Personally though, I really like the way rage works, so i wouldnt change it.
The_Hedgewizard 07-28-07, 07:10 AM	No one will spend an entire round standing there, when the option to attack yourself and hope you deal enough damage to put yourself below threshold exists. You are probably right. I started off changing the class with the idea it is damned near impossible to make warrior classes overpowered in D&D, but for some reason I just seemed to keep feeling giving the barbarian both the berserker rage variant (which can happen any number of times per day when your hp drops) and the standard rage (choosing to throw yourself into a rage regardless of hp) was too much. But I suppose it probably isn't. Now that I think about it, I think I'll remove the bit about self-induced rages automatically dropping you to your rage threshold in hp too. Will probably leave the bleeding effect and AC penalty though.
HidaAkira 07-28-07, 09:25 AM	The weakest aspect of the whole rage bit is that you eventually get to use it several times per day, and in most cases you need no more than one or two. Taking a hint from divine feats for using those unused turning attempts, I made these. comments appreciated. (initiating these effects is a free action) Raging Vitality Prerequisites: Constitution 15+, Rage 3/day Benefit: You may spend one of your rages to gain fast healing 2 while in rage. This fast healing lasts as long as your rage would. Armor of Rage Prereqisites: Constitution 13+, rage 2/day Benefit: You may spend one of your rages to gain +4 natural armor bonus while enraged. This bonus lasts as long as your rage normally would. Raging Resistance Prerequisites: Constitution 13+, Rage 2/day Benefit: You may spend one of your rages to gain a +4 morale bonus to all saves while enraged. This bonus lasts as long as your rage normally would.
The_Hedgewizard 07-28-07, 11:02 PM	Really good idea. I was trying to think of a way to give the barbarian fast healing myself, but couldn't think of a good way to do it. Not sure about the will save one though, with indomitable will and the morale bonus from raging you might as well just give them good will saves period. Otherwise, I like them. The only downside, which isn't really your fault, is that I'm not sure if most barbs would have the feats to spare on these kinds of feats. Perhaps just make a single feat that lets you spend differing usages of rage with differing requirements to get different benefits? I think most barbs could spare one feat and then they'd have something to do with those extra rages (assuming they met the reqs.).
HidaAkira 07-29-07, 01:43 AM	I thought about that, but then you risk making the feat so good one would have to be stupid not to take it. I suppose one could say the same about Power Attack (for babarians at least) but making these into something akin to tactical feats would be difficult. Look at the divine feats. Most paladins and clerics don't have many feats to spare either, and yet these effects rarely do more than one thing. And getting fast healing from a feat is rather powerful. So is being able to gain +4 to all saves (not just Will). And gaining an effective +2 bonus to AC while in rage. If you don't like the heavy will boost, just say that the feat doesn't stack with the rage bonus. One way of improving this is saying that the feats get better as the rage improves. For instace Raging Vitality grants fast healing 2 for normal rage, 3 for greater and 4 for mighty. The others would improve similarly. This would increase the likelyhood of people finishing the Barbarian class rather than just dipping into it for a level or two. You could also try this new one Shield of Rage Prerequisites: Rage 2/day, Con 13+ Benefit: You may sacrifice one of your daily rages in order to increase your Damage Reduction X/- by 2. This increases to +3 if you have hte Greater Rage ability, and to +4 if you have the Mighty Rage ability. This ability lasts as long as your normal rage. Sure, DR 9/- is pretty nice, but once you get to 20th level, most challenging enemies are going to be doing so much more damage that this doesn't really make all that big a difference.
The_Hedgewizard 07-29-07, 03:05 AM	Look at the divine feats. Most paladins and clerics don't have many feats to spare either, and yet these effects rarely do more than one thing. That is very true, but then I don't think clerics really need any kind of a power boost. I suppose another way to control it would be to make more powerful ones require the sacrifice of more than one rage. Still, the general idea is really good. Have you ever actually played with these out of curiosity?
HidaAkira 07-29-07, 09:05 AM	Not yet. The games where these would be allowable I'm either GM or the characters don't have the rage ability. If you don't like feats, you can try these ideas: - reduce duration by 1 round to increase AC by 1 - reduce 1 round to gain DR 1/- (that stacks with existing Barbarian DR) - reduce duration by 1 round to improve saves by 1 - reduce duration by 3/4 rounds to gain an extra attack per round at your highest attack bonus - Reduce duration by 1 to gain +2 to all damage rolls - reduce duration by 1 round to gain +10 movement - reduce duration by 1 round to gain +1 to all attacks (the Extend Rage feat will suddenly become very nice with this option) And I just thought this up now, so I have no idea how this works in-game
zephyrTR 07-30-07, 12:59 PM	Why would a barbarian only need 1 or 2 rages a day? What if you're in a dungeon and are in and out of combat for like 5 hours? I like the idea of making rage not self-induced. Try this out: Any time a barb would be critted, sneak attacked, at critical health, feared (and maybe compelled) a barb goes into rage. Fatigue or Exhaustion prevents this. You could make a feat to self-induce rage a number of times per day equal to your CON modifier or something. That might make things too powerful though.
HidaAkira 07-31-07, 01:44 AM	Notice that I said "in most cases". At least this was my experience with ragers.