Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JaronK 05-24-07, 05:53 PM	I got to thinking about making a Blind Swordsman character, and I don't know of any rules for blindness. Obviously, I could just have a character wearing a Blindfold of True Darkness (you can't use vision, but gain 60' blindsight), but that's just not the same. So, I came up with this. The concept is based on Vow of Poverty, though in theory this wouldn't be a feat... instead, it's an LA+0 template. Blind The creature is permanently blind. If this option is chosen, the creature cannot be cured via remove disease, wish, miracle, or any other ability. If the character is polymorphed or otherwise changed into a form which normally can see, the character is instead polymorphed into a blind version of that creature. A blind creature automatically fails all spot checks, cannot read, and generally cannot gain any use of sight. Blind creatures gain the Blind Fight feat as a bonus feat. Blind creatures gain a +4 bonus to listen checks. The creature also gains a number of benefits based on effective character level. The creature gains Blindsense with a range of 5' per effective character level. This ability does not work while under the effects of a Silence spell, or similar effects that disrupt hearing. The creature gains Tremorsense with a range of 5' at level 4. This ability increases by 5' for every four effective character levels past level 4. The creature gains Blindsight with a range of 5' at level 4. This ability increases by 5' for every four effective character levels past level 4. This ability does not work while under the effects of a Silence spell, or similar effects that disrupt hearing. So, thoughts? Does this seem reasonable and not overly complex? JaronK
DX2052 05-24-07, 05:59 PM	rules for blindness are in the core material http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded
Fireclave 05-24-07, 06:09 PM	:whatsthis Is it Thursday already? Let me refer you to this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=661437).
JaronK 05-24-07, 06:18 PM	That was pretty worthless. The idea is to make the concept of the blind swordsman, a fantasy archtype, playable. The idea is not to be realistic here... the idea is instead to make an archtype playable. The thread you linked does not do that. It just rants against people who liked the blind swordsman idea. Woo hoo. Some people like playing the unarmed fighter who defeats even heavily equiped foes archtype. They get monks. Some people like to play the wize old spellcaster. They get wizards. Neither one is realistic, but both enable you to play an archtype... which is what I'm trying to do here. JaronK
JaronK 05-24-07, 06:22 PM	rules for blindness are in the core material http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded That's temporary blindness. I'm trying to make a balanced template that in theory creates no net change in the power level of the character. JaronK
Fireclave 05-24-07, 06:59 PM	That was pretty worthless. The idea is to make the concept of the blind swordsman, a fantasy archtype, playable. The idea is not to be realistic here... the idea is instead to make an archtype playable. The thread you linked does not do that. It just rants against people who liked the blind swordsman idea. Woo hoo. Some people like playing the unarmed fighter who defeats even heavily equiped foes archtype. They get monks. Some people like to play the wize old spellcaster. They get wizards. Neither one is realistic, but both enable you to play an archtype... which is what I'm trying to do here. JaronK It's not worthless just because you don't agree, and I perfectly understand the archetype. However, you'd be surprised how often this topic comes up. What you want is a blind character is essentially not blind. My standard suggestion is to do just that. Roleplay your character as blind, but play your character as if he was sighted. The abilities you listed are very powerful. Both blindsight and blindsense allow you to auto-succeed all spot and listen checks, making you practically immune to melee ambushes. Blind-Sight makes you immune to concealment effects, so you suffer no penalties to your melee attacks from being blind, along with being immune to effects like blur, displacement, obscuring Mist, ect. Blind-Fight prevents you from losing your dex bonus to AC, negating one of the biggest penalties to being blind. And you're immune to gaze attacks. As far as swordsmen are concerned, you removed the blind out of being blind. Blind-fight and 5ft Blindsight alone are worth 2 free feats. You're giving out a whole prestige class's worth of benefits. I understand the archetype you are trying to accomplish, but in my opinion, you're giving out a bit too much. :twocents:
Nathreet 05-24-07, 07:56 PM	Solution for OP seems to be to give out less, then. So how much do you give out? Using a monster as an example, the grimlock (blind monster) has stats that are well worth the 2 LA and 2 HD. They are good even without his 40' blindsight. So it would not be unreasonable to give out 40' blindsight by level 4. The OP's template gives 20' blindsense and 5' blindsight at that level. That's far from overpowered. Honestly, those responding to this thread have just been rude. IMO, by granting long range blindsense and short range blindsight, you are forcing the player into playing a charging melee character. I'd start with pure blindsense, then upgrade it to pure blindsight. Give the blindsense a nice long range. I'd say 40' at level 1. After all, his attacks have a 50% chance of missing. Upgrade it to 40' blindsight at level 4. Add in 40' tremorsense at level 8, to help "see" around corners. Then I'd either stop the bonuses or give some minor bonuses at levels 12, 16 and 20. Bear in mind that the character still can't see past 40', and he can't read or distinguish color regardless of range. And enemies that know his weakness will come loaded with silence spells. Also provide a roleplaying reason for the blindness. Ordinary blindness does not provide such high benefits. Perhaps a racial taint or ritual blinding (plus a feat) could be part of it. You also need to make sure casters couldn't exploit the ability more than melee types. After all, the example monster I used is a strong melee type. Though I'd think a 40' range would hamper any caster.
Holy_Beholder 05-25-07, 07:33 PM	Well if you were born blind, you would have to learn to operate while blind. There is your role playing reason.
Qwicksilver 05-26-07, 02:08 AM	Quote from the SRD: Blinded: The character cannot see. He takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a –4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them. Ok for everyone note that it says that Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them. There you go, there's your license to remove some of the ability deficits that is given here. I personally would remove the -2 to AC, moving at half speed, and some strength/dex based checks. Your idea should, if it doesn't already, include the idea that he will have major deficits early on and slowly learn to overcome them. Starting off with a character who can operate normally while just stating that he's "blind" really gives no help for roleplaying. I'm actually playing a bard character who is currently blind. Although my dm didn't allow me to reduce any of the blindness traits, the idea is that my character will be able to overcome them with character development and time. I would suggest formatting these traits into a blind swordsman prc.
Alon D'ar 05-26-07, 10:33 AM	Here's the simple solution ignore the rules if you disagree with them. It may ruffle some peoples feathers but as so long as you and everyon else in yuor group is having fun who cares. To my knowledge there's no such thing as D&D police who will beat down your door and arrest everyone for playing the "wrong" way. In the end isn't the game about having fun?
Seldriss 05-26-07, 02:23 PM	Honestly, the fact to be blind doesn't turn you into a super-hero like Daredevil. Even if with time you might manage your handicap and learn to rely on your other senses, it doesn't mean in any way that they are going to develop beyond their normal range. You will just trust them more. That's all. This being said, we are not playing for realism. So if you consider than losing a sense could enhance some other, why not, as long as your DM is ok with it. After all, what is a sense ? Nothing but a skill, that you can develop with points or feats. So everything can be justified.
Qwicksilver 05-26-07, 04:07 PM	Yeah, i'd agree. To reiterate my point though, I think this would fit in well if you incorporated your character concept into a prc, rather than a template. The character then can experience a progression from normal blind man to "superhero", making the blindness more of a dynamic character attribute. There's no fun in calling a character blind and then removing all the detriments of being blind right off the bat. I think the fun is in trying to overcome the detriments.
Xeviat-DM 05-26-07, 05:11 PM	I like how everyone is fine with wizards and clerics, and some are fine with psions, but a large number of people cry out for realism when a blind swordsman or blind archer character is mentioned. I don't have my books near me to check the cost of the Blindfold of true darkness, but I remember it being around 6,000 gp? This is around the same cost as most items that grant a feat. Thus, if you can determine how many feats Blindness is worth in reverse, you can determine how many feats that blindsight is worth. Personally, though, I don't like the idea of giving full blindsight to blind characters. I know that people have been reported to learn how to echolocate (I watched a news broadcast on one such person, who could ride a bike in unfamiliar areas at full speed), but the fact that blindsight and blindsense allow you to autosucceed spot and listen checks does make them just a little too powerful. Also, while I'd be fine with a blindsight or blindsense feat as a psionic feat, and thus a supernatural ability, I don't think I'd be fine with them as standard feats. What I would like to see are two feats on top of Blind-Fight that would allow you to, for the most part, locate enemies with Listen. Skill Focus (Listen), and that one feat from PHB2 work just fine for this. I'd also be fine with netting all of this in the end: Naturally Blind: All of the penalties for blinded, except for "automatically fails spot checks, cannot read, ..." are removed, as you are aclimated to your blindness. You are able to read echos enough to know the lay of the land, and thus maneuver just as well as a normal person. Creatures can still use hide and move silently to fool your senses; you might echolocate their presense, but a stealthy individual may regester as part of the background. Creatures require concealment or cover to hide from you, as usual, but that concealment cannot come from darkness, as it is irrelivant to you. You must make listen checks to pinpoint creatures; a creature's base move silently check is equal to 10+Dex mod-Armor check penalties when moving at half-speed (one move action per round, nothing else), -10 this when moving at full speed, and -20 this when running. If I wanted to play a non-magical blind character, I'd build them to survive off of their listen skill. The only thing that really needs to be overcome with this are the blindness movement penalties (a feat to negate these isn't out of the question), and a way to pinpoint creatures more accurately with listen (so as not to suffer the 25% miss chance, again a feat seems reasonable for this). I agree with Qwicksilver that a PrC with Blindness and Listen ranks as requirements might be the best for all parties.
Holy_Beholder 05-27-07, 07:01 PM	I would allow archers more than swordsmen, since you can shoot by ear. Especially at morons in heavy metal armors shouting orders. Also, in the Drizz't books, Moochie was a blind swordsmen archer, and he shot by shooting when his owl hooted over someone. His aim was a bit impaired, but the concept is cool. Also, blind characters could be easier to trap, but they could get a +4 bonus to listen(when you lose sight, you rely on hearing a lot more)