Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SouthernTiger 01-22-08, 10:10 AM	HI.. I'm currently building a new world and I'm very interested in incorporating some/most of the bloodlines in Unearthed Arcana. Dilemma: My players are interested in using them but feel that it's way to expensive to use. Question: Has anyone come up with a cheaper system to employ these guys. I have some ideas if anyone would like to share?
Necroblivion 01-22-08, 12:56 PM	I like the idea of the bloodlines, but find them to be mostly worthless in the scope of trading levels for their abilities. I think wizards should have made them into three feats that grant certain abilities per level. So, you break them up into lesser, intermediate, and greater bloodlines. Then put the abilities into the feats on a level progression and then you solve all your problems. No longer can you take a bloodline for free and simply not progress past a certain level of the bloodline payout in order to get free goods, nor do you have to sacrifice three levels (or was it two) in order to fully get your bloodline abilities at 20th level. I have actually used this in my campaigns, it works fine and I have yet to find a balance issue with it. Enjoy.
trapspringer 01-22-08, 09:26 PM	It depends. Most start at low levels and peak out around level seven. Minor bloodlines are actually broken. Bloodlines shift the power curve towards the lower levels. That's it. Nothing fancy.
Krusk 01-22-08, 10:07 PM	I wouldnt say that minor bloodlines are broken, but I would say they are the only ones worth taking. In addition most melee warrior types should strongly consider picking up a minor bloodline, as they loose the least, especialy fighters.
Howland Reed 01-23-08, 08:46 PM	I think Necroblivion's idea (feat trees instead) is the best way to go...model them after the Fey Heritage and Fiendish Heritage feats from Complete Mage, and I think you'll be doing good. An example (threw together in about 5 minutes; may not be my best work): Celestial Heritage: You gain +1 on all Sense Motive and Concentration checks. You may use Protection from Evil 1/day as a spell-like ability. Celestial Legacy (prereq Heritage, character level 6): You gain Resistance to Cold and Electricity equal to your Wis bonus. You also gain +3 on all Cha-based checks when interacting with Celestials. Celestial Power (prereq Heritage + Legacy, character level 9): Once per day, you may make a Smite attack (add your Cha to your attack roll, gain a bonus on damage equal to your character level). You may use the following spell-like abilities 1/day each: Cure Light Wounds, Magic Circle Against Evil, Dispel Evil. Celestial Protection (prereq Heritage): You gain DR (evil) equal to twice the number of feats you possess that have Celestial Heritage as a prerequisite...for instance, if you had Celestial Heritage, Celestial Protection, and Celestial Legacy, you would have DR 4/evil. At 12th level, you also gain a +1 bonus to your Natural Armor. Repeat as needed for each bloodline.
SouthernTiger 01-25-08, 01:32 PM	Everyone's suggestions are certainly... good for thought. I'll have to tinker around with this on some scrap paper... throw some characters together and see how things turn out... This is one of my earlier works in progress.. this is probably broken but I'm sure that this will garner some extra discussion...
SouthernTiger 01-25-08, 01:34 PM	Original Version Level Loss – Minor – Intermediate - Major 1st 12 6 3 2nd - 12 6 3rd - - 12 Ability Boost - (Strength + 1, Con +1, etc) Subtype – Rules unclear if you gained a Subtype per your bloodline. Intermediate Table 10th Level – Affinity +2 Major Table 5th Level – Affinity +2 11th Level – Affinity +4 17th Level – Affinity +6 My Version Level Loss – Minor – Intermediate - Major 1st * 11 5 2nd - - 11 Ability Boost – (Strength +2, Con +2, etc) Subtype – You definitely gain the appropriate subtype based on your bloodline. See Notes at bottom. * = If you take this level of bloodline then you do not lose a level but instead lose your bonus feats at 1st & 3rd Level. Intermediate Table 10th Level – Affinity +4 Major Table 5th Level – Affinity +6 11th Level – 1 Extra Hit Die (Highest Possible - that you can qualify for) 17th Level – Bonus Feat
Krusk 01-25-08, 06:50 PM	If you do your formatting in notepad and paste it over, it will look exaclyish how you had it in notepad. Just a helpful idea. A question on your version Do you loose your bonus feats at 1 and 3 if you take an intermediate or major bloodline? or is this unique to minor bloodlines. If it is unique there has to be a smoother way to impliment them.
SouthernTiger 01-28-08, 01:21 PM	hey, krusk, sorry about the formatting... I admit I tried to feed a word doc directly into the forums.. and it didn't work out so well... in response to your question... you would not lose your 1st & 3rd level feats if you took the intermediate or major bloodline. I was thinking something along these lines. Old Way New Way Minor 1 Level 2 Feats (1st & 3rd) Intermediate 2 Levels 1 Level Major 3 Levels 2 Levels My thinking was that 2 feats is still cheaper than losing a whole level for a measly 5 improvements that you don't get until later in life.. and in most cases much later in the character's career. I thinking that 10 powers might be worth a level if they were powerful enough. I also felt that the true level adjusted characters such as a Half-Ogre get hit dice and feats and skills points... not to mention BAB, improved saves, etc. I also felt that the contributors for Unearthed Arcana must not have come up with a mathematical solution for employing these bloodlines which would also suggest that the level adjusted system in 3.5 does not 100% work as far as how each race is equated to the other. I also felt that employing 3 slots for the "Affinity" was complete mis-usage for those slots. The intermediate gets no improvement over the minor and the Major gets stuck with 3 slots allocated. That was why I felt it needed a change. Hope this helps. and I apologize for typos or any confusion. :D
JaronK 01-31-08, 05:00 PM	You might want to read this before decided that Bloodlines are underpowered: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=974529 . Considering the only build I ever contributed to the Theoretical Ops boards used bloodlines, and involved getting a 54 HD animal companion dragon who could destroy almost anything, it's worth noting that Bloodlines can be made VERY powerful. JaronK
SouthernTiger 01-31-08, 10:24 PM	I tried to find the build you had but didn't.... I noticed that one guy stated that the "use oversized weapon" would allow any pc to wield a gargantuan weapon... I know that's wrong since WOTC has errated that and said that it only allows you to wield a weapon one size larger than you are. so unless you are huge .. a gargantuan weapon is unwieldable. It is pretty much the same as "powerful build". I know that you didn't say that but someone else did. Mr teapot.. I think.. I also think that some people misunderstand what bloodlines can do and what it won't .... you do not gain any true caster levels... you only gain effective caster levels.. meaning the power of your spells go up .. but not spells per day.... nor do you gain any new spells or any new levels of spells. a 2nd level cleric with a 1 level of bloodline can only cast 1st level spells but casts them at 3rd level of power.. the cleric does however turn undead at 3rd level of power. The cleric's spell access is still only 1st level spells (i.e. 2+1). you are correct in stating that the bloodline levels do stack with all of your classes but only for certain abilities... which is utterly confusing since WOTC kinda said that some abilities will stack and some don't ... but you can send me your build .. I'd be interested in seeing it.. at this point however, no one in my gaming circle has come up with a decent build that doesn't rob the character of valuable levels and powers. The bloodlines just don't provide the BAB, HIT DICE, SAVES, or TRUE SPELLCASTING needed. almost any +3 level adjusted race is better than a basic race with a major bloodline... They get bonus HD, BAB, SAVES, special abilities, at least a +8 or better gain for ability bonuses, etc etc... that affinity bonus is joke and an utter waste of 3 slots that could been put to better use... the major bloodline should have been left to a single slot. later...
JaronK 02-01-08, 12:24 AM	It's not the powers that the bloodlines give, it's the way bloodline levels stack. Read the thread I linked to get an idea of how it works. The Ubermount is near the end of the Supermount thread. Basically, if you dip a large number of classes that all do the same thing (in this case, increase your paladin mount/animal companion), you can send that one thing into the stratosphere (in this case, giving you a 54 HD companion at level 20). You can do the same thing with Initiator levels. You have to read closely how bloodline levels interact with one level dips and specific class based abilities, as it can be confusing, but it's actually pretty clear if you read it closely. The big candidates for bloodline abuse are Hellfire Warlocks, Warweavers, Initiator classes from ToB, and Animal Companions. JaronK
SouthernTiger 02-01-08, 08:59 AM	well... I currently have a human with a major gold dragon bloodline. He is a cleric of Bahamut (level 5) with 8 levels of Swift Wing and the 3 mandatory levels of bloodline. he doesn't seem all that powerful and he's way behind in spellcasting... I was looking for a dragon-ish type cleric character. Since I can't play level adjusted races... that is what I came up with... It would seem as though my build doesn't have many abilities that stack... any ideas??
JaronK 02-01-08, 04:54 PM	If i were you, I'd drop the bloodline idea. Bloodlines are only good if you're going to be dipping all over the place, due to their stacking rules. Instead, plus a Dragonborn, which is a 0LA template that can be applied to any race. It gives -2Dex, +2Con, and your choice of draconic vision (blindsense yay!), draconic wings (flight yay!), or a breath weapon (fire yay!). You lose all racial abilities of your race, so consider doing this with an Half orc, whose racial abilities aren't very good beyond the stats anyway. Hopefully that should help. JaronK
Korwin 02-07-08, 07:20 AM	If I wanted my players to take bloodlines, I would give them for free. Its only important that all have them so its somewhat balanced... cu
deathbane 03-13-08, 10:08 PM	I thought bloodlines was garbage until I read this. I think it is good for when you are multiclassing, but for single class characters I still think it holds them back. Thanks for the info everyone.