Bloodline Levels Uneven? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bloodline Levels Uneven? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Utric Aelnoth
05-05-05, 06:31 PM After tinkering around with a vast majority of the UA variants, I've taken a good long look at the bloodlines, and found htem pretty interesting. The only problem is how it's described that they work. Could someone clarify me if I'm wrong in assuming a bloodline means this: at or before a certain character level (determined by the advancement of the bloodline) you gain a level, but only the ability granted by the bloodline. No HD, no skill points, base attack, skill points, nothing, just the one ability given by the bloodline. Afterwards you continue advancing as your class normally, acquiring the abilities until the next determined level. Example: a human druid with the intermediate Water Elemental bloodline gains 6th level. Instead of taking druid level 6, her takes his first of 2 bloodline levels (stipulated by his bloodline advancement) and gains nothing else for that one level, nothing from hsi druid class, nothing except the piddly +1 to Str. Afterwards, he freely gains abilities from the bloodline until he reaches 12th level, at which point he gets nothing from Druid, and +1 to natural armor, finishing the number of levels he needs to sacrifice to his bloodline. Thus, should he reach 20th level, he is considered a 20th level druid, but has fewer hit dice, skill points, and a lower attack bonus, yet the same spells/day and all the benefits of having a water elemental bloodline of intermediate level. (that went over my head a few times.) Is that how it works? Any advice/corrections at all are greatly appreciated :bigeyes:
HailSpork
05-05-05, 06:48 PM At 20th level, he's an 18th level druid, with 18 hit dice, casting as an 20th level druid but spells per day as an 18th, BAB of +13, and all the benefits of the bloodline.
I believe that Wild Shape would last up to 20 hours, but he would only be able to become an elemental 2/day, and not huge. I think the animal companion might also be as per 20th level.

It's kind of like gradually gaining an LA.

Btw, I think that at level 20, he still gets his 5th stat increase.
Utric Aelnoth
05-05-05, 06:54 PM makes a bit more sense now, though it still seems a bit debilitating as far as base attack and skill points go. I understand the advancing makes the bloodline levels a big boost, depending on the potency and the coupling of class to bloodline type, but it seems to be really a good thing only for spellcasters, who get to cast as though they were still the level they were as opposed to sacrificing levels. A fighter would benefit, say from a Bronze Dragon's boosts, but isn't exactly helped by the fact that he's missing a dozen or so hit points and his precious bonus feats/BAB... or worse yet, a rogue would be easily seduced by the option of having a Major Silver Dragon bloodline (because of the altering of the self, the boosts to performance, bluff and other such things that makes rogues so "thiefy"), but he'd be missing a commodity he's already short on: HD, not to mention denied his greatest asset: skill points and maybe +1 or +2d6 of sneak attack damage... but then, I suppose it's player's perogative and DM's discretion...
DM Zoc
05-05-05, 11:56 PM Depending on DM interpretation, sneak attack is a class ability gained at first level which improves based on your level; it is thus subject to the benefits of bloodline.

Other than that, bloodlines are generally weaker than templates of equal cost, but you make up for it by not having to pay that cost up front (i.e. you are a fourth-level character with three hit dice, to contrast with the one that the half-dragon has).

It's a nice way to give random, more complex abilities to otherwise bland classes (such as the fighter or barbarian), and the extra feats are very nice. I'd be hard-pressed to find a better fighter than one with the major titan bloodline.
MJ the Prophet
05-08-05, 10:19 AM At 20th level, he's an 18th level druid...
Here's the strange thing; I don't agree. At 20th level, he's a 20th Level druid all around, but adds his bloodline levels to his caster level. So, if he has an intermediate bloodline, and thus 2 bloodline levels, at 20th level he has 20 levels in druid, 2 levels in his bloodline, and a character level of 20th. Impossible? Maybe a little, but, and here's where it confused me:
Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class does, but they do provide certain benefits.
I've been hoping to use bloodlines in an upcoming campaign, but I couldn't figure out how to work this mechanic. A class which does not increase your character level? This is one of the many places in UA where you have to fill in the blanks. I've come up with two possible rulings on it.

First, you could treat it like a stacking level adjustment. At some point in his career, when the character gains a level, he instead decides to take his "bloodline" level, which increases his LA by 1, and thus his ECL by one, but not his character level. He then progresses normally as a character with a LA of +1.

Secondly, the way I came up with first, is that a character, when gaining enough experience to gain a level, can instead sacrifice a number of experience equal to the difference between the level he was about to gain and the level he currently is (i.e. he's about to go from 3rd to 4th, but instead sacrifices 3000 xp) in order to "activate" the next "level" of his bloodline. This results in slightly more powerful characters, since he remains a 3rd level character, and the self-correcting experience system will bring him up to the same level as the rest of the party pretty quick.
Keenath
05-08-05, 01:39 PM I rather like that second interpretation. You basically have to level up to 3 two times, putting you a level behind for a while, but you gained a bloodline power for that XP cost.

It's like gaining an LA and then immediately using the LA Buyoff variant -- You're more powerful than a 3rd level character, but not as good as a 4th level, and by the time you've hit 10th level the power difference is NIL, but the XP cost has been subsumed completely.

(I've been watching too much Naruto. I almost said "Bloodline limit" up there...)
Lina_Inverse
05-08-05, 07:44 PM its just a slow introduction of a LA adjustment.that adds to level dependant features.but its obvious there weak,ANYTHING WITH A LEVEL ADJUSTMENT IS WEAK.
Kintara
05-08-05, 07:53 PM its just a slow introduction of a LA adjustment.that adds to level dependant features.but its obvious there weak,ANYTHING WITH A LEVEL ADJUSTMENT IS WEAK.Well, the major Titan bloodline is pretty nice.

And there are situations LAs are worth it.
HailSpork
05-08-05, 10:02 PM Here's the strange thing; I don't agree. At 20th level, he's a 20th Level druid all around, but adds his bloodline levels to his caster level. So, if he has an intermediate bloodline, and thus 2 bloodline levels, at 20th level he has 20 levels in druid, 2 levels in his bloodline, and a character level of 20th. Impossible?
So, you're giving the character the abilities of bloodlines and they only sacrifice is a level of skill points and hp?
Perhaps those things aren't "only" but this has very little impact on a caster, particularly with how delayed the bloodline levels are.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Utric Aelnoth 05-05-05, 06:31 PM	After tinkering around with a vast majority of the UA variants, I've taken a good long look at the bloodlines, and found htem pretty interesting. The only problem is how it's described that they work. Could someone clarify me if I'm wrong in assuming a bloodline means this: at or before a certain character level (determined by the advancement of the bloodline) you gain a level, but only the ability granted by the bloodline. No HD, no skill points, base attack, skill points, nothing, just the one ability given by the bloodline. Afterwards you continue advancing as your class normally, acquiring the abilities until the next determined level. Example: a human druid with the intermediate Water Elemental bloodline gains 6th level. Instead of taking druid level 6, her takes his first of 2 bloodline levels (stipulated by his bloodline advancement) and gains nothing else for that one level, nothing from hsi druid class, nothing except the piddly +1 to Str. Afterwards, he freely gains abilities from the bloodline until he reaches 12th level, at which point he gets nothing from Druid, and +1 to natural armor, finishing the number of levels he needs to sacrifice to his bloodline. Thus, should he reach 20th level, he is considered a 20th level druid, but has fewer hit dice, skill points, and a lower attack bonus, yet the same spells/day and all the benefits of having a water elemental bloodline of intermediate level. (that went over my head a few times.) Is that how it works? Any advice/corrections at all are greatly appreciated :bigeyes:
HailSpork 05-05-05, 06:48 PM	At 20th level, he's an 18th level druid, with 18 hit dice, casting as an 20th level druid but spells per day as an 18th, BAB of +13, and all the benefits of the bloodline. I believe that Wild Shape would last up to 20 hours, but he would only be able to become an elemental 2/day, and not huge. I think the animal companion might also be as per 20th level. It's kind of like gradually gaining an LA. Btw, I think that at level 20, he still gets his 5th stat increase.
Utric Aelnoth 05-05-05, 06:54 PM	makes a bit more sense now, though it still seems a bit debilitating as far as base attack and skill points go. I understand the advancing makes the bloodline levels a big boost, depending on the potency and the coupling of class to bloodline type, but it seems to be really a good thing only for spellcasters, who get to cast as though they were still the level they were as opposed to sacrificing levels. A fighter would benefit, say from a Bronze Dragon's boosts, but isn't exactly helped by the fact that he's missing a dozen or so hit points and his precious bonus feats/BAB... or worse yet, a rogue would be easily seduced by the option of having a Major Silver Dragon bloodline (because of the altering of the self, the boosts to performance, bluff and other such things that makes rogues so "thiefy"), but he'd be missing a commodity he's already short on: HD, not to mention denied his greatest asset: skill points and maybe +1 or +2d6 of sneak attack damage... but then, I suppose it's player's perogative and DM's discretion...
DM Zoc 05-05-05, 11:56 PM	Depending on DM interpretation, sneak attack is a class ability gained at first level which improves based on your level; it is thus subject to the benefits of bloodline. Other than that, bloodlines are generally weaker than templates of equal cost, but you make up for it by not having to pay that cost up front (i.e. you are a fourth-level character with three hit dice, to contrast with the one that the half-dragon has). It's a nice way to give random, more complex abilities to otherwise bland classes (such as the fighter or barbarian), and the extra feats are very nice. I'd be hard-pressed to find a better fighter than one with the major titan bloodline.
MJ the Prophet 05-08-05, 10:19 AM	At 20th level, he's an 18th level druid... Here's the strange thing; I don't agree. At 20th level, he's a 20th Level druid all around, but adds his bloodline levels to his caster level. So, if he has an intermediate bloodline, and thus 2 bloodline levels, at 20th level he has 20 levels in druid, 2 levels in his bloodline, and a character level of 20th. Impossible? Maybe a little, but, and here's where it confused me: Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class does, but they do provide certain benefits. I've been hoping to use bloodlines in an upcoming campaign, but I couldn't figure out how to work this mechanic. A class which does not increase your character level? This is one of the many places in UA where you have to fill in the blanks. I've come up with two possible rulings on it. First, you could treat it like a stacking level adjustment. At some point in his career, when the character gains a level, he instead decides to take his "bloodline" level, which increases his LA by 1, and thus his ECL by one, but not his character level. He then progresses normally as a character with a LA of +1. Secondly, the way I came up with first, is that a character, when gaining enough experience to gain a level, can instead sacrifice a number of experience equal to the difference between the level he was about to gain and the level he currently is (i.e. he's about to go from 3rd to 4th, but instead sacrifices 3000 xp) in order to "activate" the next "level" of his bloodline. This results in slightly more powerful characters, since he remains a 3rd level character, and the self-correcting experience system will bring him up to the same level as the rest of the party pretty quick.
Keenath 05-08-05, 01:39 PM	I rather like that second interpretation. You basically have to level up to 3 two times, putting you a level behind for a while, but you gained a bloodline power for that XP cost. It's like gaining an LA and then immediately using the LA Buyoff variant -- You're more powerful than a 3rd level character, but not as good as a 4th level, and by the time you've hit 10th level the power difference is NIL, but the XP cost has been subsumed completely. (I've been watching too much Naruto. I almost said "Bloodline limit" up there...)
Lina_Inverse 05-08-05, 07:44 PM	its just a slow introduction of a LA adjustment.that adds to level dependant features.but its obvious there weak,ANYTHING WITH A LEVEL ADJUSTMENT IS WEAK.
Kintara 05-08-05, 07:53 PM	its just a slow introduction of a LA adjustment.that adds to level dependant features.but its obvious there weak,ANYTHING WITH A LEVEL ADJUSTMENT IS WEAK.Well, the major Titan bloodline is pretty nice. And there are situations LAs are worth it.
HailSpork 05-08-05, 10:02 PM	Here's the strange thing; I don't agree. At 20th level, he's a 20th Level druid all around, but adds his bloodline levels to his caster level. So, if he has an intermediate bloodline, and thus 2 bloodline levels, at 20th level he has 20 levels in druid, 2 levels in his bloodline, and a character level of 20th. Impossible? So, you're giving the character the abilities of bloodlines and they only sacrifice is a level of skill points and hp? Perhaps those things aren't "only" but this has very little impact on a caster, particularly with how delayed the bloodline levels are.