Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dr. Attila 03-13-04, 02:51 AM	Do you think allowing sorcerors to take a minor or intermediate bloodline would help balance them against the wizard while gaining a little flavor/variety? *Edited for clarity
NorthSaber 03-13-04, 04:07 AM	Originally posted by Dr. Attila Do you think allowing sorcerors to take a minor or intermediate bloodline would help balance them against the sorceror while gaining a little flavor/variety? (emphasis mine) Umm... huh? I assume you meant wizards and sorcerers, but I'm not sure which one you think needs balancing... To me it seems the two are well balanced right now. When I'm making a mage, it's a hard choice between the two - sorcerers can do so much more in a day (about 50% more), but wizards can qualify for prestige classes sooner and get a better selection.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 03-13-04, 04:14 AM	Think he's reffering to a fair number of people who think the Sorcerer is ultimatley weaker than the Wizard. I know I much preffer the idea of Sorcerers and the spontaneous casting over Wizards. Almost every time I go to make an arcane caster though I find it hard not to make a Wizard, even though I can't stand them, just because over the course of a campaign they tend to end up providing a group with such stronger support. But anyways... Giving Sorcerers a free minor bloodline probably wouldn't hurt much and may give them a bit more flavor and desirability. Intermediate bloodlines may be a bit too much power and there is also less of them, I like leaving lots of options open.
NorthSaber 03-13-04, 04:23 AM	I'm not sure what the big deal is. Both classes get about the same number of spells known, with the exception that wizards can scribe scrolls. However, the sorcerer could just as easily save that scroll for future use. Beyond that the only major difference is that wizards get higher level spells one level sooner, while sorcerers get 50% more spells per day. I still maintain it's a fairly balanced mix. Then again, bloodlines do add nice flavor, and IMO are not powerful enough to strike a major change to the balance. If the sorcerer is given a minor bloodline, he's probably getting a +1 Cha, some spell-like ability usable 1/day, some minor skill bonuses and maybe, just maybe, some energy resistance. In other words, nothing he couldn't acquire through inexpensive magical items anyway. (Although the +1 ability bonus stacks with everything, which is nice.) Maybe adding that minor bloodline (supposedly +1 LA equivalent) would make the sorcerer slightly more appealing than the wizard, but honestly for me it would make no difference. If I want a mage with versatility and faster access to powerful spells, that minor bloodline makes no difference. And if I want a mage that can provide some heavy firepower in battle, I'm not gonna care about that minor bloodline (aside from the possible +1 to spell DCs). So either way, DM's choice to add campaign flavor. Alternatively you could just say there are no wizards.
Dumb_N00b 03-13-04, 07:27 PM	I know about the wizard vs sorcerer and heres the argument: sorcerar and wizrads spells are pretty much balanced but sorcerer is slightly better (keyword: slightly) then there's skills the wizard has more class skills and naturally gets more points because (using the elite set) the wizards has a 15 (16 at level 4) in intellegence and will most likely take the 14 in dex for better armor class where the sorcerer has less class skills and has to choose between getting more skill points or a better armor class (ouch). so using the elite set the wizard gains 1-2 more skill points but when you roll the dice to creat a character the difference between skill points can become more or less. Also the wizard gains all of the bonus Item creation feats the sorcerer gets none so he has to spend his own points on them so really a sorcerer can't nessisarly even scribe a scroll. I would let sorcerers choose a minor dragon bloodline because it suggests the sorcerer may have magic powers because of draconic heritage. Hey I'm just a Dumb n00b don't have to listen 2 me if u don't want 2 ;)
Lankin the Mad Mage 03-14-04, 07:26 AM	The big difference that people here seem to forget is that wizards get lots of bonus feats. Scribe scroll is only one of them. They get more every 5 or six levels. Also, wizards can scribe new spells into his/her spellbook!!! So, the sorcerer get more spells per day, and has spontaneous casting. Wizards, OTOH, get more spells, can get new spells without levelling up, get 5 or six bonus feats and can use quicken spell. In addition there is the matter of skills, but that is a minor point until youreach epic levels and epic spells enter the picture. These are the reasons tht wizard is regarded as better than sorcerer. Personally, I'm willing to let my players get a free bloodline and an arcane domain when playing a sorcerer.
DM Zoc 03-14-04, 07:49 AM	Originally posted by Lankin the Mad Mage So, the sorcerer get more spells per day, and has spontaneous casting. Wizards, OTOH, get more spells, can get new spells without levelling up, get 5 or six bonus feats and can use quicken spell. As you said, sorcerer has spontaneous casting. This makes him useful in a situation where you have been deprived of your gear, as compared to the wizard who is useful only when things are going according to plan. I don't mean to drag it too far off topic, but a minor Draconic bloodline would seem to fit the theme very well, and is not that powerful. If you don't mind the sorcerer being more overpowered than it already is, then that seems like a good choice.
Hengwrt Ellesmere 03-15-04, 12:00 AM	I give sorcerers the bloodline feats in Dragon 311 (not the bloodlines in UA) for free. They pick the base feat at 1st level, which gives them an extra spell known per spell level appropriate to the bloodline, and then at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th they get the other feats in that article, which have different benefits depending on the bloodline. This gives the sorcerer a reason to stay in his class for 20 levels, and it gives him a bit of flavor too.
Lankin the Mad Mage 03-15-04, 03:50 AM	Hey, great idea! I loved that article too, and doing it like that would really make the sorcerer more flavored. And it would osset the balacing problemthat the wizard bonus feats create. But I'd perhaps hink of removing the familiar from the sorcerer classif i did.
Hengwrt Ellesmere 03-15-04, 04:37 AM	It's probably my favorite article EVAR, though I only started buying Dragon with #310. It's too bad they didn't print it in UA so it would become open content.
Vaelan 03-15-04, 04:47 AM	I'd say Intermediate or Major bloodlines. Major bloodlines usually get two significant abilities, a minor ability, a feat, some skill bonuses, and +1 in 2-3 different stats. Wizards get their 5 bonus feats and their unlimited capacity for known spells alone more than makes up for anything the bloodlines in UA give. I don't think even a Major bloodline fully compensates their ridiculously low number of spells known.
jagggar 03-15-04, 10:24 AM	If we're giving the sorcerer the bloodline for free, no need to take bloodline levels, then major would be over powered. I'd say a minor bloodline for free, player's choice. Possibly intermediate rolled up. Or another thought I had was allowing the bloodline for one less bloodline level. Minor=free, intermediate=1 level, major=2 levels. 'Nother thing that should probably be addressed should be the prevention of a one level dip. Bloodline only increased by sorcerer levels.
Lord Schpungus 03-15-04, 11:15 AM	'Nother thing that should probably be addressed should be the prevention of a one level dip. Bloodline only increased by sorcerer levels. I had thought about that, too, but I was thinking about letting them continue the bloodline if they wanted to pay for it after they left sorceror. How about: If your sorceror level is equal to or exceeds the 'bloodline payoff level' for the first payoff level, you don't have to pay it off. So then you have a Sorc 12/PrC8 who doesn't have to pay off his minor one and still gets the benefits at 16th and 20th. Or a Sorc 6/blah blah blah with an intermediate whose first bloodline level is paid. Or a Sorc 3/blah blah blah with a major who only has to pay off two levels now, at 6 and 12. What do you think?
Vaelan 03-15-04, 02:20 PM	A Major bloodline would NOT be overpowered. Picking a random bloodline(major)... Gold Dragon +1 to three stats(no CHA) +2 to four skills(pretty random skills) +3 natural armor Two Feats(one is worthless, other is of limited usefulness) Fire Resistance/Immunity(Immunity at level 20) Water Breathing Breath Weapon(at level 16) I think I'd rather be able to cast every arcane spell, which comes out to over 70 spells just looking at the highest three levels, than have these abilities...
Krelios 03-15-04, 02:29 PM	Originally posted by Vaelan A Major bloodline would NOT be overpowered. Picking a random bloodline(major)... Gold Dragon +1 to three stats(no CHA) +2 to four skills(pretty random skills) +3 natural armor Two Feats(one is worthless, other is of limited usefulness) Fire Resistance/Immunity(Immunity at level 20) Water Breathing Breath Weapon(at level 16) I think I'd rather be able to cast every arcane spell, which comes out to over 70 spells just looking at the highest three levels, than have these abilities... Ummm... Okay, I think you proved your argument doesn't work... A Breath Weapon, Water Breathing, Fire Immunity, Natural Armor, and the other (more minor) stuff is WAAAAAAAY more than the ability to scribe spells and a few bonus feats. I'm not sure what the big deal is. Both classes get about the same number of spells known, with the exception that wizards can scribe scrolls. This is just incorrect. Sorcerers CAST more spells per day and do not have to guess what they'll need. Wizards can KNOW more spells in total, but that's balanced by not necessarily having whatever spell you need at the time you need it. The big argument is that a wizard can simply scribe scrolls of what s/he doesn't need often and a sorcerer can't (since s/he doesn't necessarily know the same spells). However, the sorcerer can just buy the scrolls that the wizard buys to put into his/her spellbook and use them when needed. They're already balanced.
jagggar 03-15-04, 02:46 PM	Originally posted by Vaelan I think I'd rather be able to cast every arcane spell, which comes out to over 70 spells just looking at the highest three levels, than have these abilities... And that's supposed to be balanced against the wizard? Honestly, where does that leave a wizard?
Lankin the Mad Mage 03-16-04, 03:22 AM	Originally posted by jagggar And that's supposed to be balanced against the wizard? Honestly, where does that leave a wizard? No, no, you misunderstand. He's saying that if the choice was between the sorcerer w. bloodline (free water breathing and skills) and the wizard (can cast all spells), he'd rather have the wizard, because he's better.
Alkaline 03-16-04, 10:25 AM	What do you guys think of this sorcerer template I plan to use in my campaigns? It's a slightly beefed up Sorcerer. SORCERER Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d6. Class Skills The sorcerer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int), Use Magic Device (Cha). Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier. Same Spells per day and known as default sorcerer. Class Features All of the following are class features of the sorcerer. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a sorcerer’s gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail. Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells, which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below). To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however. Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level. Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast. Eschew Material: Sorcerers get Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at first level. Bloodline: A sorcerer chooses an intermediate dragon bloodline at first level. They gain the benefits of that bloodline.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 03-16-04, 12:05 PM	What do you guys think of this sorcerer template I plan to use in my campaigns? It's a slightly beefed up Sorcerer. Looks pretty overpowered to me.
jagggar 03-16-04, 12:08 PM	Originally posted by Lankin the Mad Mage No, no, you misunderstand. He's saying that if the choice was between the sorcerer w. bloodline (free water breathing and skills) and the wizard (can cast all spells), he'd rather have the wizard, because he's better. Ah, okay. Now me understand. Originally posted by Alkaline What do you guys think of this sorcerer template I plan to use in my campaigns? It's a slightly beefed up Sorcerer. Eschew Material: Sorcerers get Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at first level. Bloodline: A sorcerer chooses an intermediate dragon bloodline at first level. They gain the benefits of that bloodline. Pretty cool. Glad no anti-dragon-blood-sorcerer people have dropped by yet. Does the sorcerer not get a familiar? Just checking.
eggplantm 03-16-04, 12:28 PM	I like the idea of using bloodlines for sorcerer's class abilities very much and I recently had a post here on the same subject. I looked through the UA and PHB and came up with some conclusions about sorcerers. 1. They don't need more spells per day. They have plenty of power just nothing to make you want to stay as a core sorcerer. They need something to look forward to other than spells and something that makes them interesting outside of combat. 2. They don't really need more spells known, but that is cool and I would recommend anyone to look at that issue of Dragon for the bloodline domains. 3. Major bloodlines are a little too powerful, and since there are not that many of them (only three dragon types) it is kind of limiting. I'll get to a solution in a minute. 4. Most intermediate bloodline bonuses do not directly help the sorcerer in any significant way. They are however interesting in their own right and make the character more unique. So, after seeing these three things I came to some possible conculsions for sorcerers in my games. 1. Sorcerer's lose Summon Familiar and get Eschew Materials in its place. 2. All sorcerers who begin at 1st level select a intermediate bloodline that becomes their class features & they do not have to buy bloodline levels. 2a. Characters can spend their 1st level feat to take a major bloodline instead. 2b. Characters can also spend a feat at 1st level to gain the bloodline domain in Dragon magazine. A human sorcerer could start out with both a major bloodline and a bloodline domain at the cost of both 1st level feats. 3. Characters who take levels of sorcerer past level one as part of multiclassing do not gain the benefits of the intermediate bloodline as they have learned sorcerous arts but did not have inherent sorcerous blood. What do you think?
jagggar 03-16-04, 12:42 PM	It's just my flavor opinion that all sorcerers have it in their blood and that you can't learn it. Minor maybe (rolled, not chosen)? W/out any ability to increase it? Only other thing I might add would be to allow the sorcerer to take a feat to gain a familiar.
Alkaline 03-16-04, 01:31 PM	jaggger, Yes. I intentionally removed the familiar. I replaced the familiar with the Bloodlines. In my perception of the Sorcerer, they are more "worldy" than the wizard and so I upped the HD and skill points. I also added Intimidate and UMD to showcase their "natural" flair for charisma and magic (which is why I didn't add gather information or diplomacy). Kept spells the same. Added eschew materials to add more flair to their "natural magic" as well. I'm also thinking about using the Domains for Sorcerers. To the other guy... Can you explain how it's overpowered? Not just a "too overpowered..." Alkaline
SirisC 03-17-04, 02:24 AM	also, consider comparing the sorcerer to the generic spellcaster or wizard using spell points to sorcerer using spell points or wizard to sorcerer using recharge magic in all three the sorcerer is weaker on the first one, the generic spellcaster is identical to sorcere plus wizard bonus feats. (there are other differences but these are the ones i want to point out) sorcerer gets a few more spell points, but the wizard gets more spells known per day to spontaneously cast from and can change those each day. and the spells known per day for wizard can be boosted by high intelligence with the recharge magic the same problem as spell point system.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 03-17-04, 03:41 AM	Can you explain how it's overpowered? Not just a "too overpowered..." While your reasoning behind the changes makes sense, all of them combined are too much. I do think that Sorcerers are weaker than Wizards but not that much weaker. I especially think that both UMD & 4 skill points / level is a dangerous combo. UMD adds a large amount of versatility to a class and the 4 skill points / level insure that the Sorcerer can keep it maxed with little problem. Eschew Materials I agree is somthing all Sorcerers should get. The moderate bloodline is probably close to too much all by itself really. Like I said, it's the combination of the abilities that make it too much. You are adding both power and versatility. I would probably stick with one or the other.
Vaelan 03-17-04, 04:20 AM	Ummm... Okay, I think you proved your argument doesn't work... A Breath Weapon, Water Breathing, Fire Immunity, Natural Armor, and the other (more minor) stuff is WAAAAAAAY more than the ability to scribe spells and a few bonus feats. 5d8 30' cone at level 16. With the Sorcerer's puny little d4 HD, if one were to get within 30 feet of a decent level opponent and proceed to BLOW FIRE AT THEM, the opponents would laugh at the pathetic damage dealt and proceed to beat the moronic Sorcerer into the ground. The only real time I see this actually being used is if you use Recharge and the Sorcerer didn't bother to learn many different offensive spells. Water Breathing is easily emulated by spells and magical items by the time you're level 10, so it isn't a big deal. Water Breathing is a THIRD LEVEL SPELL that lasts 2 hours per level. At level 10, that's 20 hours. At level 12, one third level slot emulates this effect. Fire Immunity is the only ability I'd consider a bit powerful, but I don't think it would have that big of an impact on an intelligently run game. Did I forget to mention you get it at LEVEL 20? Also, Rings of Universal Elemental Immunity are craftable at level 21, just for a reference point... +3 Natural Armor... ooh, that fighter has to roll a 4 to hit you now... :rolleyes: I fail to see how even a free Major bloodline makes a Sorcerer mechanically as good as a Wizard. It does, however, make them more fun and interesting to play as opposed to just being a crappy Wizard. SUMMARY: Bloodline abilities are gained at high levels, and thus they aren't as useful as they seem.
Alkaline 03-17-04, 01:42 PM	Originally posted by Fiendish Dire Weasel While your reasoning behind the changes makes sense, all of them combined are too much. Well, I did ask for the boards approval. Why not just make suggestions to make it more balanced rather than say it's just too overpowered? I do think that Sorcerers are weaker than Wizards but not that much weaker. Then you would agree that the sorcerer needs more. I especially think that both UMD & 4 skill points / level is a dangerous combo. UMD adds a large amount of versatility to a class and the 4 skill points / level insure that the Sorcerer can keep it maxed with little problem. A bard and rogue both get UMD and get more skill points that the sorcerer (even with my new 4 skill pts). I see no problem with a sorcerer getting this skill considering they are more tuned to magic that other classes in general. Also, a wizard gets only 2 skill points per level, BUT, their main attribute is INT, which directly contributes to more skill points. By the end of adding up modifiers, a wizard is up there with the rogue. You're telling me that a sorcerer should be only as skilled as a fighter... Eschew Materials I agree is somthing all Sorcerers should get. Agreed. The moderate bloodline is probably close to too much all by itself really. In all honesty, you could be right. I haven't tested it yet, and taking an intermediate bloodline means you give up 2 levels in the normal rules. Maybe I'll drop this down to Minor. But, I haven't tested it yet, and I'm a more of "flavor over mechanic" kind of guy I guess. Would you think a minor bloodline would be too powerful? Like I said, it's the combination of the abilities that make it too much. You are adding both power and versatility. I would probably stick with one or the other. What specific suggestions would you make? Alkaline
Vaelan 03-17-04, 02:29 PM	The moderate bloodline is probably close to too much all by itself really. Intermediate bloodlines give you two minor abilities, a worthless affinity, +1 to two different stats, a few skill bonuses, and a feat at a rate of one every other level. Wizards get 328(not counting research and anything outside of the PHB) more spells known than Sorcerers, bonus feats, more skill points, and decent metamagic(Sorcerers can't even use the rods without getting gimped). Their only penalties are preparing spells(which isn't a big deal since a Wizard can know every Divination spell available to them, and thus should know what to expect) and 20 less castings/day(2 of each level). A specialist Wizard closes the gap to 10 less castings/day, gets free spells, and gives up very little compared to a Sorcerer. 328+ more known spells, or a moderate bloodline... which would you choose from a purely mechanics standpoint? I'd say forget the skill changes and try a major bloodline, since some people have this ridiculous theory that it is too powerful by itself. By the time you get the really good abilities(levels 10, 16, and 20), they aren't that great. They're all easily emulated by spells that are available at far lower levels than even a Major bloodline gets the equivalent abilities. Sure, a breath weapon sounds great when you're flash-frying orcs with it, but when you're level 16 it isn't quite as useful. No one here has even attempted to argue exactly how a major bloodline would be overpowering, while I have given many reasons why they border on insignificant when compared to the huge advantage Wizards have over Sorcerers.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 03-17-04, 03:33 PM	One of the reasons I would favor minor bloodlines over intermediate or major is because there are a lot more minor bloodlines to choose from. I think versatility is good and while I don't oppose the "Draconic Blooded Sorcerers" idea, I don't think Sorcerers should be limited to only 3 draconic ones and a few more planar ones. I think I just don't like the UA bloodlines a whole lot. I like the idea of Sorcerers getting bloodline abilities, I just don't think I like the UA ones. As far as why I think major bloodlines are overpowered is that those "little" things add up and are even more valuable when innate, permenant and mostly (Ex). For the draconic ones we're looking at +1 to three stats, 2 bonus feats, immunity to one kind of energy, +3 natural armor and a few more tricks like water breathing, breath weapon, skill bonuses and so on. These are individually small but totaled are a decent boost. I don't think the Sorcerer needs that much of a boost in that direction. A bard and rogue both get UMD and get more skill points that the sorcerer (even with my new 4 skill pts). I see no problem with a sorcerer getting this skill considering they are more tuned to magic that other classes in general. This is kind of like saying "Fighters get martial weapon proficiencies and bonus feats, why shouldn't Bards". Bards and Rogues are supposed to be versitile, UMD is one of those aspects. I think this is a trick argument really. How much the Sorcerer should be boosted is a matter of how weak you think they are and it's clear people have a different opinion. Personally, I like the idea of a "skilled Sorcerer", I think it would help fill the role of "social-guy" (which in my experience groups often lack or are weak in) in the party by having another class with good social skills. I also think UMD makes a lot of sense and would add a lot to the class' versatility. I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be done, I was just mentioning it was a dangerous combo. Remember, it was the whole package that I thought overpowering, not neccissarily the individual parts. I just see a lot of people who want to throw UMD to Sorcerers without considering the effects this can have. I'm not opposed to Sorcerers with UMD, I'd like to try it out and it could work well. It was the combination of that and the other aspects that gets a little sketchy. As I said though, us agreeing on what a good Sorcerer upgrade would be would be difficult because of differing opinions on how much help they need (I think at least one person mentioned them being overpowered in fact). Though, in the end I still think the best way to "balance" the Sorcerer is to just get rid of the Wizard ;)
Crusher Nate 03-18-04, 11:10 PM	If your goal is to make a level 20 Sorcerer seem appealing, then nothing less than a major bloodline will do. The problem with the Sorcerer isn't a lack of power or utility or flavor; it's a lack of a reason to take 20 levels of the class. The one really appealing feature of the class, its spellcasting, will progress at the same rate with most of the prestige classes you'd be looking at. You can also get more skills, a bigger hit die, better saves, maybe a better BAB... and what do you give up for it? Familiar advancement? Well, its hit points will always equal 1/2 of your own, it already has all of its important abilities by the time you qualify for a PrC, and it can use your save bonuses in place of its own if yours are better. So that's no real loss. This bloodline idea is the first attempt at a fix that actually seems to have nailed the problem dead on. Don't give the Sorcerer a bigger hit die or more skills; these won't make 20 levels of the class look any better. Give the Sorcerer a major bloodline instead of a familiar; this enhances its flavor and gives it something to lose by taking a prestige class, which is exactly what the class needs. I say make it a major bloodline because only the high-end powers of a major bloodline start to make the character resemble his exotic ancestor. Compare the intermediate and major Celestial bloodlines. Look at what they both get at level 20... :b: Intermediate: +2 to save vs. poison. :b: Major: Damage Reduction 5/evil. +2 vs. poison? This is the culmination of my birthright? Not only is it pathetically weak for a level 20 power, but nothing about it is particularly suggestive of an angelic heritage. I mean, dwarves get the same thing at level 1! DR 5/evil, on the other hand, is very fitting for a part-celestial. And it's not terribly strong, either. Yes, a major bloodline gets a lot of bonuses, but the majority of them won't be terribly helpful to a Sorcerer. +2 on checks with 4 skills isn't so hot if only one of those skills is a class skill for you. +1 to each of 3 stats won't let you suddenly start dominating the campaign. I think it's a swell idea.
strenoth 03-19-04, 12:12 AM	of course, you have to make sure the Major Bloodline abilities are connected to the sorcerer clas directly. I know this is sort of a Duh, but there is always the little guy who is going to try and pull 'well, i took a level of sorc, so I get the bloodline now for all my levels, right?" heh, yeah right.. Not. so, define the Bloodline ability as a class feature that only applies to levels in that class. :) just to be on the super-clarified safe side.
Crusher Nate 03-19-04, 01:30 PM	Yep, Strenoth, that is something that should be mentioned, all right. The point of keeping Sorcerers and Wizards balanced has also been brought up, and this does merit consideration. Sorcerers and Wizards are basically balanced now, but I don't think this balance is quite as delicate as it seems. Clerics and Druids were considered balanced in 3.0; 3.5 made improvements to the Druid, and the two are still balanced. I think the same is true of Sorcerers and Wizards. Still, it couldn't hurt to give a little something to the Wizard while you're at it. I like the variant specialist Wizard options, too, so I plan on using those as well. Edit: Another good idea is to prohibit a Sorcerer from taking spells that are at odds with his bloodline. Celestial prohibits Evil spells, Red Dragon prohibits Cold spells, Titan prohibits Law spells, etc. This would mean that only a nonspecialist Wizard has the ability to learn any Wizard/Sorcerer spell he wants. And with all of the specialist Wizard variants in play, only a nonspecialist Wizard gets a familiar. Now I just need to give something unique to the Fighter to make every class viable all the way to 20th level. I've got an idea for that; I'll post it in another thread soon.
Ashrem Bayle 03-19-04, 02:11 PM	In my 3.5 game, I've slightly boosted the power of both sorcerers and Wizards. Sorcerers get a free intermediate bloodline and a spell domain. If they want a major bloodline, they have to pay for it like they would a minor bloodline. Wizards get to select a number of spells out of their spellbook as per the normal rules. From that small list of prepared spells, they may cast those spells spontaneously. As per the normal rules, they can swap out their prepared spells each day.
Vaelan 03-20-04, 05:49 AM	Ashrem, your system is terrible. Under your system, Wizards get spontaneous casting and more spells known per day(of the higher levels, which are all that really matter) than a Sorcerer. Basically, they get the main Sorcerer advantage without really taking the penalty. This makes Sorcerers absolutely worthless and no domain and bloodline, even Major, would make up for it. Wizards don't need any kind of boost.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 03-20-04, 10:02 AM	In my 3.5 game, I've slightly boosted the power of both sorcerers and Wizards. Sorcerers get a free intermediate bloodline and a spell domain. If they want a major bloodline, they have to pay for it like they would a minor bloodline. Wizards get to select a number of spells out of their spellbook as per the normal rules. From that small list of prepared spells, they may cast those spells spontaneously. As per the normal rules, they can swap out their prepared spells each day. :uh-huh: Wow, I must say, that blows my mind. You gave a boost to those poor underpowered Clerics too I hope? :ayyyy!:
Radazim 03-20-04, 02:53 PM	I had an idea to merge the wizard and sorcerer into a single class for some theoretical "next campaign" that was essentially what Ashrem used. They have spellbooks like Wizards, can prepare a number of spells per day according to the Sorcerer's "spells known" table, get spell slots per day according to the Wizard's "spells per day" table, and cast spontaneously. Save DC is Cha-based, number of prepared spells get Int-bonuses, and spell slots per day get Cha bonuses. I think that all of my future campaigns will use this spontaneous casting from prepared spells variant.
schulerta 03-23-04, 11:58 AM	Originally posted by Radazim I had an idea to merge the wizard and sorcerer into a single class for some theoretical "next campaign" that was essentially what Ashrem used. They have spellbooks like Wizards, can prepare a number of spells per day according to the Sorcerer's "spells known" table, get spell slots per day according to the Wizard's "spells per day" table, and cast spontaneously. Save DC is Cha-based, number of prepared spells get Int-bonuses, and spell slots per day get Cha bonuses. I think that all of my future campaigns will use this spontaneous casting from prepared spells variant. This is a great idea, I proposed something very similar on the PHB\Classes board yesterday. (Great minds think alike ;) ). The spell point system in UA could also be used. My only change was that Saves were Int based, and highest level of spell cast was Int based as well. This would serve a great service if WoTC were to adopt it, there would never again be an argument over the comparative power levels of the wizard and sorcerer. Troy
DM Zoc 03-23-04, 07:41 PM	Such a proposed system is rather similar to, though not exactly the same as, the magic users of Arcana Unearthed.
sciborg2 03-24-04, 06:49 PM	hmmm, are sorcerers really that bad? It seems strange to me that such would be the case, given their supposed versatility--specifically metamagic on the fly. Not to offend, but perhaps it is only a certain style of playing that they have a disadvantage?
DM Zoc 03-24-04, 07:25 PM	Not to offend, but perhaps it is only a certain style of playing that they have a disadvantage? The "style of playing that they have a disadvantage" is any one where seconds are vital. I'm not saying that it's specifically combat-oriented where sorcerers suffer by metamagic, even though it's true.
SirisC 03-24-04, 10:26 PM	Originally posted by DM Zoc Not to offend, but perhaps it is only a certain style of playing that they have a disadvantage?The "style of playing that they have a disadvantage" is any one where seconds are vital. I'm not saying that it's specifically combat-oriented where sorcerers suffer by metamagic, even though it's true. The biggest disadvantage I see for the sorcerer is that WotC has published many variants/versions of spellcasters that are similar to the sorcerer but more powerfull, specifically almost every spellcasting variant in unearthed arcana benefits clerics and wizards more than sorcerers. (like spontaneous divine caster variant, spell points, recharge time)
sciborg2 03-25-04, 01:33 PM	if feats could reduce the metamagic casting time, essentially a quickenspell, would that be enough?
Crusher Nate 03-25-04, 02:52 PM	I don't think so. You'd just be forcing them to take an extra feat to do something Wizards can already do; this would actually put the Sorcerer another step behind the Wizard as far as metamagic is concerned. The Sorcerer doesn't lack power; spontaneously casting 9th-level spells is impressive enough. What the Sorcerer lacks is a reason to stick with the class any longer than you absolutely must. Every Sorcerer build I've conceived, or seen someone else put together, is geared toward getting the character into a prestige class with stacking spellcaster progression as quickly as possible. People like the spontaneous casting, but that's really all the Sorcerer has; if you can get the same casting progression with a prestige class, and get some class features to go along with it, it's a no-brainer. This bloodline idea makes a 20th level Sorcerer seem like an attractive option. It gives a character something to lose by taking a prestige class. The powers are very minor in strength, but packed with flavor. If you're bothered by the idea of granting a power at every level, you could always trim the fat out of a major bloodline by removing the skill boosts and the ability score increases. Just keep what's marked as "special" and "affinity" in Table 1-7 on page 31; that's where the flavor is, anyway. You could also use these stripped-down major bloodlines as a guide to extending those bloodlines that don't have a major version, like the Black Dragon; this would give more options for those of you who are concerned about lack of variety.