Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dr. Awkward 03-18-04, 03:45 PM	Hi, sorry if there's already a thread on this subject. I did a search but didn't spot anything on this particular topic. My issue is this: The bloodlines provide a series of bonuses to a character that are stretched over 20 levels. Sounds nifty. But my players being my players have noticed that for 3 levels of investment, they get less and get it more slowly than if they had taken a template. I will use as an example the red half-dragon template, and compare it to the red dragon major bloodline. Both cost 3 levels overall. But a comparison of what they each get for their trouble results in the half-dragon walking away with a total +14 ability increase, +4 natural armour, extra vision modes, immunity to sleep, natural attacks, d12 hit dice (if applicable), a breath weapon, immunity to fire, and the Dragon type. The bloodline gets 8 bonus skill points, a +6 bonus to social interaction with red dragons, +3 ability increase, +3 natural armour, breath weapon, two feats (Alertness and Power attack), and Locate Object 1/day. Even at first glance, for the price of 3 levels, the half-dragon walks away with the lion's share. The free feats are nice, but of limited usefulness, especially if the character wants to get Power Attack before 12th level, or has a familiar already giving Alertness. A character starting at 4th level can get all the half-dragon bonuses right away. A bloodline character must wait until level 20 to get all his powers, but even at 20th level has fewer benefits than the half-dragon. The benefits to a bloodline seem to be: 1. Can be taken at first level 2. Class level-dependent benefits continue to advance, like Caster Level 3. Not front-loaded, so won't throw off game balance the way a template does. The third is mostly of interest to DMs, and I think is the raison d'etre for the bloodlines. But considering you must spend the same number of levels, and wait longer for your powers to kick in, the bloodlines should end up giving you a real tangible benefit compared to taking a similar template. But as written I think I would have trouble convincing a player to give up 3 levels in a class, much less a LA +3 template, to take a bloodline. As a DM, I like the idea of the half-dragon not getting its full power spread until the higher levels, since this will keep it more in line with the power levels of the rest of the party. By the time they really start to accrue power, they're at a level at which that power is useful, but still in line with the general power level of the game. But there should be some gain in exchange for the long wait and the need to sacrifice levels against the bloodline. And I just don't see that it's there. For the intermediate and minor bloodlines as well: I think they have potential, but you have to wait until 16th or 20th level to get any real benefits, at which point you'll hardly even notice the +1 snuck into your huge item-based bonuses. As an example, minor red dragon bloodline gives Resistance to Fire (5) at level 16. Most 16th level characters are likely to be covered with fire resistance if they need it, and this bonus will be overlapped, and therefore useless. Which brings me to my question: why were the bloodlines designed to be so underwhelming? I love the concept of them. I think they really could be something cool with a bit of work. But I'd have to force my players to take them if I wanted to have them in my game, since they don't make a good case for themselves. I notice that other things in the book are what you might call "overpowered," but most of these things have caveats attached to warn you about possible game-breaking rules. Why were the bloodlines left "underpowered?" Am I missing something here? Are they actually balanced? If they are, then I'd have to say that the half-dragon isn't, but it's core rules. In short, I'm going to have to rewrite the whole section if I want to use it. And I'm just wondering why.
danielinthewolvesden 03-18-04, 06:53 PM	The half-dragon template is notoriously over-powered. And that's what you're comparing the blloodline to. Thus, yes, you won't get as much. It is not so much that bloodlines are under powered as that half-dragons are over powered. Also, unless I am crazy, when you "lose" a level due to bloodlines, isn't your spellcasting level still there, and other benefits?
ECOM 03-18-04, 09:11 PM	A blood line level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base savesbonuses, no hitpoints or skill points, and no class features. it counts as a normal class level(with no class skills) for determoning maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass charicters. Include the caracter's bllod line level when calculating any caricter ability based on his class level (such as caster level for spell casting caricters, or save DC's for caricters with special abilitys whose DCs are based on class level) The caricter does not gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though--only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected So a level in bloodline would no give a wizard more spells but would increse his effective caster level In my game i eliminated the bloodline level (it was confusing to my players) instead they have to pay an xp cost before advancing to a specified level xp cost Minor Intermediate Major 1000 12th 6th 3rd 4000 ---- 12th 6th 9000 ---- ----- 12th Total cost 1000xp 5000xp 14000xp I dont like the level adjustment system it is not consistent. some templates and races are better than other with the same level adjustment. after discusing with my players we decided to develope pristige classes like dragon desiple for other templates
DM Zoc 03-18-04, 09:53 PM	Of major worth to players, a bloodline doesn't leave you with 6 HP at ECL 4. Most importantly, a bloodline level gives you the bonus to class-dependent variables, like caster level (if you want to dispel things) or such. A major drawback of a sorcery-based Dragon Disciple is that your fireball doesn't get to 10d6, while the bloodline level solves that problem. Bloodlines also give you a lot of nifty things that you can't otherwise get, and because they're less powerful than templates, they don't radically alter role-playability. I mean, have you even seen the pictures of a half-dragon? I doubt they'd even be let into most towns; they'd probably be slain on sight (which is easy when you only have half a dozen hp's). Since either template or bloodline would likely favor fighting classes, it's nice to get the random things that you couldn't otherwise get, like Invisibility 1/day (which is all you need it for if you want to stay invisible forever) or the Use Oversized Weapon epic feat (normally not available).
Aurotuli 03-19-04, 12:05 AM	I ignore bloodline 'levels' for all purposes (including DCs, etc). Instead, I simply have the player pay XP equal to 15% that which is needed to achieve the necessary level (from the perspective of the Major Bloodline). My system is admittedly easier: 450 XP for the minor bloodline, 2250 XP for the moderate bloodline, and 9900 for the major bloodline. I use Minor Bloodlines for flavor, and encourage their use. Moderate Bloodlines are more costly, almost 5% of all XP gained until 10th level. Although not keenly felt at low levels, it builds up and can hold the character back a level at early mid levels. The Major Bloodline is used sparingly, for it costs a set 15%, minimum, to pay its cost by level 12. This gives added incentive to pay the total cost before hand, as the 20% is therefore immediately felt. It also makes minor bloodlines quite attractive (effectively they only have to give up half the XP of their first level) and I rather like the idea of having them in a campaign. Moderate Bloodlines are a little more costly, and Major Bloodlines cost a set 15% of all XP gained - nearly as bad as multiclassing. They may offer the needed XP at any time and in multiple 'payments'. However, I allow and encourage the option of offering a set % of XP per encounter until the needed 'level'(s) of bloodline are paid off, but they must be willing to pay that % at every encounter until their entire bloodline cost is paid off. I usually allow 1% to 25%, with the offered %s of: 1% for minor bloodlines (which pays the full cost by level 10), 4% for moderate bloodlines (which pays the full cost by level 11), and 15% for major bloodlines (which pays the full cost by level 12). The major bloodlines are costly and their impact is felt immediately and continuously until after achieving level 12. Major bloodline PCs will likely lag a level or so behind the other PCs (9900 XP is a significant amount). Moderate Bloodlines are only slightly felt until they are paid off. They are a minor annoyance at worst, but they do hold the PC back slightly from the others - especially at lower levels and especially if the PC decides to pay off the 2250 XP faster than necessary. The % stated above is the minimum needed to avoid the 20% penalty that comes upon over- reaching their level. They can choose a lower % (except for minor bloodlines, obviously! ), but upon over-reaching their % will rise to 20% for the entire next level, after which they can lower it again to whatever % they wish. Every time they gain a level they can choose to alter their current % of XP taken for the entire next level.
Aurotuli 03-19-04, 12:58 AM	XP spent every level given the stated % LV 2% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 01 20 50 100 150 200 250 02 40 100 200 300 400 500 03 60 150 300 450 *600 *750 04 80 200 *400 *600 800 1000 05 100 250 500 750 1000 1250 06 120 *300 600 900 1200 #1500 07 140 350 700 1050 #1400 1750 08 160 400 800 #1200 1600 2000 09 180 450 900 1350 1800 2250 10 *200 500 #1000 1500 2000 "2500 11 220 550 1100 1650 2200 @2750 12 240 600 1200 1800 @2400 (3000) * level after which 1000 XP has been gained. # level after which 5000 XP has been gained. @ level after which 14000 XP has been gained. " upon this point, only 250 XP is needed to achieve the necessary cost. Thus, it the full price of the bloodline is paid well before reaching the next level. Note that for nearly every *, #, @ above, the PC has additional XP after gaining the level - XP that should (if the PC has achieved the maximum cost required for his entire bloodline) be rewarded back to the PC as it is above and beyond the needed cost for the bloodline. The " marks a special circumstance already described above. --- The Minor Bloodline is equivalent to a constant XP penalty of ~1.3% by level 12 (or a loss of ~2% by level 10). Thus, taking a simple (and rather easy to calculate) 2% XP penalty every time XP is gained will result in paying the entirety of the bloodline cost by level 10, with an extra 100 XP remaining. Or they can choose to take a constant 1.3% XP penalty and have only 14 extra XP at level 12 (when their bloodline is paid off). The Moderate Bloodline is equivalent to a constant XP penalty of ~6.5% by level 12 (or a loss of ~9% by level 10). They could make it simpler yet (to calculate) and take a 10% penalty to XP until level 10, with an extra 500 XP remaining. Or they can choose a constant loss of 9% (by level 10, with a remaining 50 XP) or 6.5% (by level 12, with a remaining 70 XP). The Major Bloodline is as costly as multiclassing several times into non-favored classes, for it costs a minimum XP penalty of ~18% (by level 12, with a remaining 40 XP). Assuming a 20% loss (the minimum applied whenever the PC goes over their required level without yet having paid the cost) then the PC can pay their major bloodline costs by levels: 3, 7 & 12 (with a remaining 300 XP at level 12). Note that even with a 20% loss of XP, the intermediate level for a major bloodline is not paid for until 7 level is completed. Thus, even with a 20% penalty to XP this is a level late! Thankfully, the 20% auto-penalty is the same as the 20% already being taken, thus resulting in no affective extra loss while the penalty is paid. The PC that wishes to pay off the entirety of their XP penalty by level 10 must take a huge 25% penalty, and even then they will still owe 250 XP after achieving level 10! Final Conclusions: A minor bloodline is, affectively, no penalty or LA at all. It requires a loss of ~2% of all XP received for the first 10 character levels. A moderate bloodline, however, is likely a form of LA spread thin over many levels, for the XP penalty is equivalent to ~9% (~10%) by level 10. A major bloodline is a massive loss, as bad as multiclassing while still beneath level 12, for it requires a ~18% (~20%) loss of XP every level until level 12, or a loss of ~25% of all XP every level until level 10! It is therefore arguable as to whether it is wise (especially in the case of major bloodlines) to pay off entire amount in levels (escentially going through the required level twice without receiving any benefits the second time). Only for the minor bloodline is this a good trade, for upon reaching level 11 the cost of sacrificing 1000XP by level 12 (for which 12000 XP is required to gain) is a relatively minor matter.
DM Zoc 03-20-04, 12:33 AM	I did a bit of min-maxing to see what good a bloodline can be. I have come to the conclusion that bloodlines are good for exactly one thing: increasing all of your class levels simultaneously for the purpose of abilities which scale with level. I have to say that the loss of hit points and saves does really hurt, but my motto has always been, "if you're getting hit, then you're doing something wrong." Here's what I came up with (warning: munchkin ahead): Sneak Attacker: Thug 3 (Sneak Attack variant) Fighter 3 (Sneak Attack variant) Rogue 3 (normal rogue) Wilderness Rogue 3 (standard variant) This does require using the optional rule where you can multiclass as different variants of the same class, but it is a perfectly valid optional rule, just like anything else in the book. Now, the key here is the bloodlines, which I haven't mentioned yet. There's probably a better way to do this, but I just figured out the whole thing this morning, and there's a theme involved. Bloodlines: Minor, 8 different dragons Each dragon bloodline gives +1 to strength at level 12 (and of course, bloodline levels count for determining your level). It also works out very well because you can take each of the four classes above, and pick up all of the bloodlines just in time to not have an experience penalty. Each bloodline also give Alertness, which means you get 7 free feats out of it. The downside, as I've mentioned is that you have 2d10+2d6+4*Con mod hit points for levels 4-12. I've had worse, trust me. Now the most important part: bloodline levels stack when determining your level-dependent abilities. Sneak Attack is an ability which you can at first level in each class, and improves by +1d6 for every two additional levels in the class, and stacks flatly with all other sneak attacks, such that your sneak attack by level looks like 2: +2d6 3: +3d6 4: +4d6 5: +4d6 6: +8d6 7: +8d6 8: +12d6 9: +12d6 10: +16d6 11: +16d6 12: +20d6 At which point your sneak attack already doubles that of a non-epic rogue, and you're free to either drag out back with the basic classes for 2 levels each (in which case the extra rogue levels should help bring your skills back up to reasonable levels) or go into a prestige class, or even pick up a casting class (though you'd be hurting for hit points, any of your first level spells are as though cast by a ninth-level caster). I think I personally would choose Invisible Blade, as it shouldn't be too difficult to defeat someone of equal level when you sneak attack for 20d6, but at this point it's open game.
Dr. Awkward 03-20-04, 01:15 AM	They don't work that way. They really, really don't work that way. It says very clearly: "The character doesn't get any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels...only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected." The bloodline only counts as a class level for things that you already have that are level-dependent, like spellcaster level for determining the effects of spells, or save DCs for things like Stunning Fist which are level-based. You don't get any sneak attacks. Now, the issue of whether you can have more than one bloodline is debatable. But assuming it is possible, if you want to have eight different bloodlines, you have to get a level in each bloodline before you reach level 3. And the bloodlines specifically count toward your character level. So the maximum number of bloodline levels you may have at level 3 (since you have to take a regular class for level 1 or you have no hit die) is two. You will be level 9 before you get your first 8 bloodline levels, and level 17 before the next 8. I'm very sorry, but while this might have actually turned out to be the most unbelievable twink I have ever seen. It's simply not possible. Read the book. Anyway, I suppose that the big issue here is that the half-dragon is broken. So the half-celestial is probably broken too. And I guess I should assume that most of everything else in the Monster Manual with a level adjustment is too. I'm not being sarcastic. I'm just a bit disappointed since they were supposed to correct stuff like this in 3.5, but it's just as broken as it ever was. I guess bloodlines are a patch for an open wound.
jedrious 03-20-04, 01:16 AM	um #1 bloodline levels affect level dependant effects such as usable 1/day/level and dc 10+level+ability mod, or add class level to damage when you smite, or turning level, bloodline levels do not give you class abilities sooner, also look closer at when you take bloodline levels for minor bloodlines
DM Zoc 03-20-04, 01:34 AM	It's actually something which I checked to be very sure about, but yes, Sneak Attack is an ability which is gained at 1st level and improves by +1d6 for every two rogue levels thereafter. Call it "convenient wording," but I warned you that it was a rather munchy example. Edit: It was also brought to my attention that monk unarmed damage, AC bonus, and speed, are all abilities gained at 1st level which scale depending on your level. If you take 2 levels in Monk, with the 8 bloodline levels, you have a respectable foot speed and +2 AC, as well as useful unarmed damage. This is less spectacualr of a twink, however, as many PrC's also allow for their levels to stack when determining these. To continue the twink, however, a level in Assassin would give you +5d6 to your sneak attack, as would a level in Slayer of Domiel (though these two are mutually exclusive). It does raise the question, though: what happens to class abilities when you no-longer qualify for the class? I believe ex-bards and ex-monks keep their abilities, and are merely disallowed further progression.
DM Zoc 03-21-04, 02:52 AM	Seriously, though, the ability to not lose level-based benefits is a huge boon which balances a major bloodline against a template. Don't you all agree?
foxylady 03-21-04, 04:44 AM	Originally posted by Dr. Awkward Anyway, I suppose that the big issue here is that the half-dragon is broken. So the half-celestial is probably broken too. And I guess I should assume that most of everything else in the Monster Manual with a level adjustment is too. At +3 LA, half-dragon isn't really broken, unless you define "good enough for the occasional PC to take" as "broken" (which, unfortunately, is the essential position of many posters on the WotC boards). Bloodlines are absurdly weak compared to class levels or most templates. Nearly all of the the Monster Manual and Savage Species races have too-high LA, intentionally so according to unofficial comments made by the designers.
Thelon Fairblade 03-22-04, 09:26 AM	Bloodlines are okay if you just plain disallow templates and +X LA races. Why be a minor Celestial bloodline when you can be an Aasimar? Why be a moderate when you could be Half-Celestial? But if those options are not available, then the bloodlines are a nice, low-power, way to indicate exceptional backgrounds. (I would probably grant anyone taking a Bloodline level the apporpriate Bloodline feat from dragon as well, which miborly boosts the spellcasters a little with extra spells and a minor restriction.)
Thelon Fairblade 03-29-04, 11:01 AM	As an alternative, bloodlines are *also* okay versus templates if you give them HD (or more). a Major Dragon Bloodline versus a Half-Dragon, the MDB character would have an extra 3 HD...
DungeonlessMaster 03-29-04, 11:29 AM	The bloodlines another one of the options from UA that is being put to a purpose that it was never supposed to have. The designers have said that the bloodlines are an outgrowth of the bloodlines from Birthright. In that setting just about every PC had a bloodline. Although players where allowed to play non-noble pc the whole bloodline concept was essential to the campaign. This is same scenario that exists for bloodlines. Bloodlines are weaker than templates. They also come with less of a penalty. Although they can be used as a toss in character option, the system implimented for them is not easy. Indeed I think that a great many people would be dissapointed in a campaing where some people took templates, others played large level adjument races and some heroes used templates while other characters used no "race enhancement" at all. This option is not really balanced in that scenario. It is more set up for everybody to be playing bloodline charcters. As an aside there are some interesting things that the bloodlines do. First of all is the fact that you can play a level one charater in a "balanced" campaign with even a major bloodline. The bloodlines are in some ways better for spellcasters than templates because it does not slow spell power. Finally the feats listed on the list turn into free bonus feats if you already have the feat listed. This is in the text but I don't have it with me so I will have to find the exact section later. In the end a bloodline is weaker than a template, but if you pick a bloodline that compliments your class you can end up with a bunch of free feats.
Malagant_the_Black 03-30-04, 12:26 PM	Well I use the Half-Dragon template for those who are just that: half-dragons. With a parent who is a dragon, a first generation bloodline would naturally have more dragon blood in him and gain better abilities. The Bloodlines from UA I use for distant descendants, some of which might inherit differing levels of their ancestors magic blood. Some descendants might have only small indicators of a dragon ancestor, some none at all, and others, those who advance to high levels, have many attributes. Now for the pure level per level side of it, I would only allow someone to become a half-dragon through some crazy ritual or epic spell which infused them with the half-dragon qualities. Maybe an epic spell. Or otherwise just use the Dragon Disciple PRC. That's what it's there fore. Aasimars and Tieflings and other planetouched races I use as completely different races. These are peoples whose gene pool is so infused with celestial or fiendish power that they have become something different altogether. Thanks! Mal
trapspringer 03-30-04, 06:25 PM	If you look at your character as the here and now, an intermidiate bloodline is free for five levels, and you gain a bonus at every other level for free free, for six levels. You will be much more powerful than you pc counter-parts. Also, if you happen to be.. say a fighter with the sneak attack varient (your biggest hit for a low-level group is you don't get the feat to specialize at level four) you can take finess at level one, focus at level three, and as your feat for fourth level you can take specialization. (as per the rules pretaining to the pre-emptive aquisition of a feat which you would later gain for your bloodline) Couple this with improved initiative as a freebie and the ability to shoot winged creatures out of the air once a day (not to mention that it rounds off you five ability increases by using either your dexterity gain or your constitition gain for a max total of twenty-four due to natural ability increase and a twenty-eight point buy system) You can make a fairly effective character. This is just one example.
Gottwick 04-12-04, 01:41 PM	A PC wants to use a major bloodline in my new Forgotten Realms campaign. Paying for the 3/6/12 levels is a sudden payment for something that you gain benefits for gradually, and a steady XP payment method is preferable anyway. The XP cost is 18,000 -- 2k for 2nd-3rd, 5k for 5th-6th, and 11k for 11th-12th. I don't want to decrease that, it seems balanced to me. You gain the benefits over 20 levels, not 12. Spreading the XP cost over 12 levels puts the penalty before the benefit. So 27% until 12th level (66k) roughly pays for the whole package. But 10% until 20th level (190k) also pays for it. Doesn't that make sense? Why reduce the XP cost or push it all to the lower levels?
Gottwick 04-12-04, 02:33 PM	As a second issue, the efficacy of bloodlines is questionable. The wizard PC who wants to have a dragon bloodline would pay 18,000 XP for stuff that would do him very little good. 1. Bloodlines have many ineffective entries, especially 'affinity'. Red dragons are chaotic evil, greedy and self-centered. I don't recall that red dragons have an 'affinity' in their stat block for other red dragons, so why would a descendant? Given the improbability on any given day of meeting a dragon, much less a red dragon, it's a wasted slot. Suggestion: Replace affinity with a Trait from UA that fits the bloodline. 2. If a PC wants the bloodline but all it gives are physical characteristics, that hurts a wizard. (Ever play Necromunda and have your sharpshooter gain a high Weapon Skill instead of Ballistic Skill?) Why would a high-Int, spellcasting dragon pass on Str and Con to his descendants but nothing mental? On the other hand, should the PC be able to customize the bloodline to match his class? Suggestion: The DM should change the chart to match the character's class, under the assumption that the PC develops characteristics of the bloodline by exercizing those facilities (Int for a wizard, Wis for a cleric, etc.). 3. Some of the benefits are pointless at the level they're granted. At 19th level, is +2 Swim really beneficial? Yet a breath weapon at 1st level would be devastating. Suggestion: Move skill bonuses to 1st-10th level, and supernatural abilities to 11th-20th level. 4. In our situation, the PC doesn't want to know which type of dragon it is or what the benefits are, because he doesn't know his true parents. That makes it more of a roleplaying thing and less of a choice. It's like an axe-wielding dwarf fighter discovering at 6th-level that he has an archery Feat. Maybe it’s good for the story because it might lead him to his destiny, but it doesn't help him overcome obstacles along the way. Suggestion: When the PC can’t prepare for what the benefits might be, scale down the cost of the bloodline from a Major to an Intermediate.
Aurotuli 04-13-04, 12:07 AM	IIRC, and I'll admit that its been over a week since I read up on bloodlines, if you do not pay the required XP by the set level (3, 6, 12), then you take a 20% XP penalty until the needed amount is reached. If you pay in lump sums and never voluntarily pay XP, this results in a 20% penalty beginning at level 3 and lasting until the penalty is paid, then beginning again at level 6, and then beginning again at level 12. In each case (I'm not up to calculating it at the moment, but I can guestimate the cost), the penalty lasts for at least a level - maybe two. By that method, the entire cost is paid by levels 4 (5), 7 (8), and 13 (14). When I calculated the costs I assumed that no one wanted to pay the 20% penalty that automatically kicks in upon achieving the said level. The penalty at lower levels is part of what taking on a bloodline is all about. You don't quite fit in and you have unusual abilities that might aid you in succeeding where others might perhaps fail. Thus the penalty (albeit for the second reason - the former is entirely roleplay). I also do not like placing such a penalty at lower levels - especially since the abilities gained may not always be worth the penalty (such as a +2 to a skill around level 12, IIRC). If you have not paid your XP after paying off level 6, you suddenly gain this 20% penalty for what? A +2 to a single skill? Granted, you are also using abilties gained at lower levels, but any special (ie: not a +2 skill or +1 ability score not of your choice) ability is supposedly balanced against the level at which it was received - meaning they are mostly lower level abilities by level 12 that you are now paying for using. Thus the decrease in XP cost. I wanted the major bloodline to be reachable by level 12 at less than a continuous ~ 20% cost. I judged 15% to be fair and determined the lesser bloodlines from fractions of the major bloodline, IIRC. Thus, a I said before, a major bloodline is a major expedenture of XP, and the penalty of 20% is immediately felt if a lesser % is used for too long without a balancing higher % at times / levels. Minor bloodlines are now flavorful, as I thought they should be. Moderate bloodlines are the most often seen as the cost is just enough to be noticed. Major bloodlines are rare but powerful - with the expected significant cost.
Aurotuli 04-13-04, 12:18 AM	As for ideas on 'balancing' the bloodlines: - similar cost but needed at levels 5, 10, and 20 (thus a much smaller amount of XP needed by each level). A nice idea, but the cost for a major bloodline is now almost too cheap, and if you increase it to the difference between levels 19 & 20 its too expensive. I like the previous way more. - +1 to the skills each time: +2, +3, +4, etc. Or perhaps +1 to all skills you receive a bonus in for the bloodline the first time a skill pops up, +2 to all those skills the second time, +3 the third time, etc. A little more powerful, I'll admit, but a +4 at around Lv 20 (IIRC) to the 4 skills should prove more useful than a +2. And the ability has been slowly building the entire 20 lvs. Hmm, I had not thought of this before, and I rather like the idea now that I have thought of it. - If you wish to move things around, perhaps replace the first su/sp ability with the last skill ability and move all su/sp abilities forward to their next slot. Keep it up, if you wish, until all/most su/sp abilities are in later slots and all skills in earlier slots. I'm not sure I like this option, however. I like the idea of a pattern as it is easier to progress beyond 20, although I have yet to do so (try to advance a major bloodline beyond 20, I mean; lesser bloodlines already have advancements in place, if you think about it). I'll think of some more possibilities later.
Gottwick 04-14-04, 09:24 PM	Aurotuli, if I may summarize: You stuck with all of the XP cost before 12th level because that's what UA does and it implies a penalty if it isn't paid by 12th level. But realizing it was very expensive, you reduced the cost. There's nothing wrong with that, but I think I'll spread the cost out instead. In all, I don't want to increase the benefits because everyone will take a bloodline then. Maybe for a different game, but not Forgotten Realms. If I can figure out how to format it, I'll post my new bloodline next.
Gottwick 04-14-04, 09:42 PM	The Level column is character level. The Old column is the bloodline creation method in UA. The New column is my rearranged version, with skills at lower levels and 3 affinitys traded for 1 trait, 1 spell, and 1 special. The Actual column is my new Song Dragon bloodline. (I took the liberty of making it major, even though it should probably be intermediate.) Level Old New Actual 1 Skill boost 1 Skill boost 1 +2 Disguise 2 Special 1 Special 1 Alertness 3 Ability boost 1 Trait* Longshanks: +10 base speed, -2 Hide, -4 Move Silently 4 Special 2 Skill boost 2 +2 Bluff 5 Affinity +2 Special 2 Resistance to electricity 5 (Ex) 6 Special 3 Ability boost 1 Charisma +1 7 Skill boost 2 Skill boost 3 +2 Speak Language 8 Special 4 Special 3 +1 natural armor 9 Ability boost 2 Spell* Polymorph 1/day (Sp) 10 Special 5 Skill boost 4 +2 Search 11 Affinity +4 Special 4 Alter self 1/day (Sp) 12 Special 6 Ability boost 2 Intelligence +1 13 Skill boost 3 Special 5 +1 natural armor 14 Special 7 Special 6 Mobility 15 Ability boost 3 Special* Unsettling presence: 30 feet radius, 1/day, targets make Will save or are shaken 16 Special 8 Special 7 Breath weapon 17 Affinity +6 Special 8 Resistance to electricity 10 (Ex) 18 Special 9 Ability boost 3 Strength +1 19 Skill boost 4 Special 9 +1 natural armor 20 Special 10 Special 10 Immunity to electricity
Makaldren 04-17-04, 12:11 PM	One thing, the feat given isn't wasted if you want to add it early: if the bloodline gives you a feat you already have you get to choose another. So, getting extra feats is a bonus over a template. They may not be suitable for a particular character idea, but if uber-effectiveness in a narrowly defined role is of paramount importance then pick another bloodline that does, or stick to a regular character. For those wishing to have a bloodline as an interesting roleplay hook then this should not be a problem. To be honest, strength boosts are good for a wizard if the DM is not running a pure wargame, one fight per day, style adventure - smart foes will get into melee with a wizard if they can and spells run out all too quickly. So a bit of melee ability is handy if adventures are truly challenging with occasional situations the party cannot have prepared for. It may be the case that concentrating purely on magic or melee does make you more effective in that role but it can get very boring from a roleplayers perspective to be an optimised machine every time. As the 'lost' levels do add to caster level of all classes, the diverse multi-class character or monk/arcane-type can do quite well out of it when compared to a template. The final point is that it is a new option and will suit some games but not others. The bloodline are a more organic and integrated approach than slap on templates and personally I prefer the approach and luckily for the most part, have players that trust me enough not to quibble about losing a little bit of effectiveness in the interest of having a character that is meshed with the world background.
Makaldren 04-17-04, 12:15 PM	I do think the idea posted of DMs developing alternate ones (such as ones that develop spell abilities from a dragon anscestor) for their own game world is a good one if play balance is carefully monitored. The ones given are really as an example and I guess have the abilities listed in the case of the dragons due to the half-dragon template which is combat orientated.
Makaldren 04-17-04, 12:32 PM	One way of considering the power of the bloodlines is to, say, add all the abilities of a major line together and then split between 3 levels. Imagine a three level class that gave those bonuses at each level! The loss of hits (some improve Con so actually improve them), skills (look at the skill bonuses instead) and attack bonus (some improve Strength or Dex so more than give attack bonus) are not so bad compared to the gains. You have to wait a little longer but this is not a bad thing from a play balance view. Compared to a template that gives much of a bloodlines abilities all at once then yes there are some inconsistencies but many templates are a little overpowered lets be honest. I see bloodlines as a more balanced and measured approach that will suit some games more than templates do. Much as Gestalt characters will not suit most games but will suit some.