Post/Author/DateTime	Post
magmer2 07-28-04, 12:58 AM	It seems to me that the bloodlines are weak when compared to what would be the appropriate template and I wonder what it would take to make them decently good. I was thinking that a sloping progression would be a good choice. start slow and increase what you get in your later levels. What do you think?
Greyman 07-28-04, 03:31 AM	Well, by the time you are required to take a bloodline level the granted abilities are weak for that level adjustment. However, remember that you've gained those abilities over several levels before you took the level adjustment. It's a case of buy now, pay latter.
DM Zoc 07-29-04, 09:47 PM	Bloodlines are game-breakingly powerful. It just requires inventive multi-classing. I will say that I'm the only person I know of to multi-class rogue with wilderness rogue and fighter (sneak-attack variant) and ninja and take three different bloodlines.
Lord Splendor 07-30-04, 03:43 PM	Bloodlines suck. The only one I might even think of taking would be titan. Mainly because at higher levels they get "Use oversized weapon" and its the only place you can get that ability. All over abilites can be replicated by magic items, spells, or prestige classes. I really don't know why anyone would play one.
jagggar 07-30-04, 04:08 PM	Originally posted by DM Zoc Bloodlines are game-breakingly powerful. It just requires inventive multi-classing. I will say that I'm the only person I know of to multi-class rogue with wilderness rogue and fighter (sneak-attack variant) and ninja and take three different bloodlines. Of course, if you're only allowing one bloodline at a time and the standard classes. . . Then how is it? I like the bloodline concept, however, the mechanics they have down just isn't what I was aiming for. I'm looking for something where the human with the Fire Elemental bloodline can bust out a fire shield just like that. Toss in some pyrokensis and that Faerunian scorcher spell. It's actually inspired by a free form character I made and I'll probably work on it later, but now I've got some other d20 stuff I'm doing.
DM Zoc 07-30-04, 04:34 PM	Okay, if you're limiting yourself to all normal classes and just introducing bloodlines on top of that, then it can be useful. I stand by that it is only very useful in the case of multiclassing. The best non-variant example I can think of is the duelist/bladesinger/invisible blade. They all have an ability which is add 1 point of Int bonus per class level to AC. I'm fairly certain that you can't qualify for all three bonuses simultaneously, because of their restrictions on what you have to have in your hands to get it to operate, but I'm fairly certain that you can get at least two of them going at the same time. Under normal circumstances, exploiting your +4 Int bonus into +8 to AC would require you to take 4 levels in each of two PrCs. If you instead have a bloodline, then you can take 1 level in each PrC and three levels in bloooline, and then you'll count as being level 4 in each class for exactly that purpose. This also allows your level-based variable to exceed their normal limits (specifically for prestige classes). Let's pretend for a second that the Assassin death attack has a DC of 10 + Int mod + 1/2 Assassin level. Normally, you can only take 10 levels of a PrC in pre-Epic, but you could take a major bloodline and have an effective level 13 for this. Going back to the Invisible Blade, the CW version only has 5 levels, which means a maximum bonus to AC of +5; a major bloodline would extend this to 8. If you don't want to use a PrC, then it gets pretty tricky to make this useful, and it barely serves to make multi-classing less lousy. Imagine, though, a fighter with a level in cleric. If she has a major bloodline, then her cure light wound will heal an extra 3 hp. There's also a feat in CD that increases your caster level for a single class by up to +4, so this is not really the best use of a bloodline. Imagine, though, that you are a wiz3/sorc4/cle3 with three bloodline levels, and compare that to a wiz4/sorc5/cle4. The first person will be casting 2nd level wiz spells with a caster level of 6, 2nd level sorc spells with a caster level of 7, and 2nd level cle spells with a caster level of 5; the second person will be casting 2nd level wiz spells with a caster level of 4, 2nd level sorc spells with a caster level of 5, and 2nd level cle spells with a caster level of 4. Clearly, the bloodline is a more efficient build, especially if one is about to multiclass into fighter or somesuch. (Imagine the person has twelves in int/wis/cha.) In short, bloodlines are rather useful only when you multiclass into many classes all of which have level-based abilities gained early on.
MetalGemini 07-30-04, 05:57 PM	I like the bloodlines for primarily role-play reasons. One or two levels isn't a huge blow to any character unless you are trying to hardcore min/max. Like DM Zoc said, they really help multi-class characters too. Example: Ogre bloodline, intermediate for Barbarian/Sorcerer. Bloodline gives +1 Str, +1 Cha to help both classes and spell like abilities to make up for the sorcerers limited spell knowledge.
trapspringer 07-30-04, 11:39 PM	Here is the thing. You will be front-loaded. At low levels, other players will have to respect your superior abilties, but by the time you hit your 2nd bloodline pay-day, you will be noticably weaker. One obvious advantage is that a character with 3/4 BAB can utilize the bonus feats to redistribute those pesky first-level feats to higher levels when they have a +1 or bettter BaB. Improved initiative for free at level 8 becomes any feat of your choice at level 8 if you take I.Initiative at level 1. Another advantage is that it boosts saves based on class level. Classes like dark-hunter benefit greatly as the save-or-die ability is now equal to 10+8+int.
cthulu_mt 08-01-04, 01:29 AM	What I did with bloodlines is sort of out of what is in UA but more in line with the old BirthRight campaign with a bit of Highlander mixed in. Everyone can have a bloodline picked randomly and you don't have to "pay" the levels. I won't go into the mechanic but you can sense when another character with a bloodline approachs. Lesser bloodlines have a better chance of being undetected and major have a harder time avoiding detection. And when you kill another "'Liner" you can take one of the powers they have already acquired.
Deathmage 08-01-04, 03:11 PM	i think bloodlines are pretty cool, though normaly i probably owuldn't take one unless: A: i was doing it for my characters backround B: the DM was allowing everyone a free bloodline of either minor, intermidiate or major. some of the major ones get some nice stuff, though for 3 level adjustment, it can hurt a little bit
GypsyComet 08-01-04, 03:55 PM	My group is looking at using Bloodlines for the first time, and I have to say that the column of "explanation" on page 19 is lacking and contradictory. Are Bloodline levels real levels? Do they take up a spot on your 20-level progression? Is a Major Bloodlined character at 3rd level (3000 EXP; 2 class and 1 BL) getting what the chart says he gets for 3rd level, or is he really 2nd level with 2000 pts EXP spent on "something" the same way casters spend EXP on items?
DM Zoc 08-01-04, 05:16 PM	Originally posted by GypsyComet My group is looking at using Bloodlines for the first time, and I have to say that the column of "explanation" on page 19 is lacking and contradictory. Are Bloodline levels real levels? Do they take up a spot on your 20-level progression? Is a Major Bloodlined character at 3rd level (3000 EXP; 2 class and 1 BL) getting what the chart says he gets for 3rd level, or is he really 2nd level with 2000 pts EXP spent on "something" the same way casters spend EXP on items? A major bloodline character at 3rd level gets what it says for 3rd level on the chart, even though she only has 2 hit dice. You're also 3rd level for the purpose of maximum skill ranks (though you'll have to put multiple points into it in the future to catch up).
Nifft 08-01-04, 06:04 PM	IMHO, Bloodlines should be like Gestalt -- something that's NOT balanced with normal D&D, but fun to give to all PCs as a way of making them special and different from "normal folks" (NPCs). In this regard, they'd be like racial Heroic Paths (from Midnight). -- N
GypsyComet 08-01-04, 06:16 PM	So it *is* a "character level", regardless of what it says, but as a "class level" it has no HD, no skill points, no BAB or Save progression, and no class features other than "enable Bloodline"? The Bloodline "class" would pretty much be: lvl HD BAB Fort Refl Will Features 1 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Enable All Minor Bloodline abilities (or Abilities 3-5 for Intermediate or Major) 2 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Enable All Intermediate Bloodline abilities (or Abilities 6-11 for Major) 3 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Enable All Major Bloodline abilities plus the caster level increment, which has no shorthand term...
jagggar 08-02-04, 03:41 PM	Originally posted by Nifft IMHO, Bloodlines should be like Gestalt -- something that's NOT balanced with normal D&D, but fun to give to all PCs as a way of making them special and different from "normal folks" (NPCs). In this regard, they'd be like racial Heroic Paths (from Midnight). -- N Never heard of Midnight, but I do like your idea. Kinda wonder, would 20d4 damage at 20th level be too much for a touch attack?
Nifft 08-02-04, 10:08 PM	Originally posted by jagggar Never heard of Midnight, but I do like your idea. Kinda wonder, would 20d4 damage at 20th level be too much for a touch attack? How many times per day? If it's only once per day, it sounds like the Destruction Domain ability -- so NOT unbalanced. If it's 5/round, all day, it's a bit much. :) -- N PS: Midnight is a campaign setting (not WotC). It's very heroic, original, and has a dark gritty feel all its own. Get more info here: -- http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/mnland.html ... and here: -- http://againsttheshadow.org/