Bloodlines...good? bad? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bloodlines...good? bad? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
codexia
07-29-05, 11:52 PM Nobody in my campaign seems to like them at all :/ Granted, not all of them are powerful, but some of them...

The drawback they mention is the level requirements. And I do agree with them...is a greater bloodline worth the 3 levels its going to take from you?

I was considering doubling the effect of bloodlines (only for a couple certain classes that are more in tune with their natural powers) but I wasn't sure if this would break bloodlines, or just make them viable for my players.

Opinions please ^_^ are we just missing something that would be obvious to more experienced players? I've been playin more years then I can count, but...only a year into 3.5 now
Elvintry
07-30-05, 10:31 PM hmmm...well from my experience....bloodlines are a good trade off....at least the major ones are...the others don't give that much...I would say that if you want a character to have a little more bite...without the level adjustment of a template...it works...this works well especially if you want every one to be the same level...but maybe one with a little extra....please comment on my post about bloodlines...if you would...click on this link:Favored of Deity Bloodlines (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=472256)
Nani?
07-31-05, 08:15 AM I like it for a RP standpoint. For example, have a half elf, raised by her human father after a one night stand/basket on the porch months latter encounter. The Fey Bloodline makes you wonderif she is indeed a "half elf" or is mother possibly something else?

All the Best,

Nani?
Lina_Inverse
07-31-05, 12:07 PM there worthless.like most thinks with a LA there intentionally underpowered.
greatmoat
08-01-05, 10:50 AM there worthless.like most thinks with a LA there intentionally underpowered.

Can someone translate this? :confused:
Lina_Inverse
08-01-05, 11:18 AM Can someone translate this? :confused:

The Creators of D&D intentionally inflate LAs to punish players for not playing the core races.they have stated this.bloodlines are level adjustments as well and suffer the same problem.the cost for chooseing them is inflated past the value of the bonuses.
Nordman
08-01-05, 05:45 PM Well I dont think it would be good all the time...Like when my Dm forced me into one in the middle of the game cause every new pc hade one.

I became a elf efreet with blond hair, blue eyes and red skin with tiny horns....And I was a thief!
Udnamtam
08-02-05, 07:59 PM First off, Lina_Inverse, you're dead wrong. In my campaign, every single one of the party members has a very high LA race or template. In our previous campaign, this was not the case, and it was tremendously easier as a DM to challenge them. LA's are often very well balanced, the only hangup is the loss of hit points that happens,

Second, Bloodlines are just an easy way to take a level adjustmet bit by bit, instead of all at once, which can be a problem sometimes.
Lina_Inverse
08-02-05, 09:42 PM First off, Lina_Inverse, you're dead wrong. In my campaign, every single one of the party members has a very high LA race or template. In our previous campaign, this was not the case, and it was tremendously easier as a DM to challenge them. LA's are often very well balanced, the only hangup is the loss of hit points that happens,

Second, Bloodlines are just an easy way to take a level adjustmet bit by bit, instead of all at once, which can be a problem sometimes.

no template is worth its weight in caster levels.
is your party entirely non casters?in which case it would be damn easy to challenge them.
Udnamtam
08-02-05, 10:04 PM tell me, have you ever played with a bunch of munchkins? you might be suprised what the wonders of skilled multiclassing can do.
Lina_Inverse
08-03-05, 10:27 AM tell me, have you ever played with a bunch of munchkins? you might be suprised what the wonders of skilled multiclassing can do.

i play with partys of intelligent casters.which is close enough.but instead of seeing people spazing to bring a fighter type upto par they just rip things apart to begin with.
no template is worth the X druid levels you payd for it.
Udnamtam
08-03-05, 02:31 PM look, if your party is a bunch of casters, keep in mind that your campaign is going to be very different than everyone else's, so i'd think carefully about what you're saying before going about criticizing things.
DM Zoc
08-03-05, 03:19 PM Lina_Inverse is exaggerating, but is not too far off the mark. It's been officially stated that Level Adjustments are calculated such that it is never clearly better to take a non-core race. Any race or template is considered against the core alternative, and the Level Adjustment is increased to the point where nobody thinks that it is better than the core alternative (which means, since people have varying opinions on what things are worth, that some people will end up happy and everyone else will think it is not worth it).

Also, at least in my opinion, casters are played at least as often as rogue types and fighter types. Add this to the fact that casters are stronger in the late game, and Level Adjusted races can't show up in the early game, and you have a very good reason why people don't play Level Adjusted races. You're definitely more likely to have a well-rounded party if you start out at level 1, and that more or less prohibits Level Adjustments.

Bloodlines are not Level Adjustments, though, and for the very reason that you can take them on an ECL 1 character. Since you don't have to pay for them up front, they give you slightly less in the long term (compare a major gold dragon bloodline to the half-dragon template, and you'll see what I mean). On the other hand, since you don't have to pay for them right off the bat, every major bloodline is definitely worth it at level 2, (at which point you're reaping minor benefits at absolutely no penalty).

The bonus to all effective class levels also has some merit, aside from this. A duelist 1/ bladesinger 1, for example, can have a major bloodline and apply +4 Intelligence bonus to AC from both classes; an assassin can increase the potency of its death attack beyond that attainable by maximum class level, and it can also "invest" those levels beforehand (since bloodlines don't affect maximum skill ranks, you can make up the setback on skills by spending more points at later levels).
Sarig the Genie
08-03-05, 03:32 PM Our DM gave all the PC's major bloodlines for free. If the whole party is overpowered, it's balanced ;)
Mystyc
08-04-05, 06:58 PM no template is worth its weight in caster levels.
The thing is, bloodlines don't cost you caster levels.
Udnamtam
08-04-05, 07:05 PM Our DM gave all the PC's major bloodlines for free. If the whole party is overpowered, it's balanced ;)

I agree. In one campaign I let the players have all nat 18's. I tell ya, that was a freakin' awesome campaign.
Lina_Inverse
08-04-05, 10:10 PM The thing is, bloodlines don't cost you caster levels.

levels in a casting class.ill take my 9th level spells at 17th instead of 20th thank you very much.
fawr
08-05-05, 11:00 PM I don't like races with level adjustments because they almost force you into a small number of classes. For example imagine the race "smarty Pants" that has a level adjustment of about +4, and grants you +12 Int -2 Wis -2 Cha. No-one choosing that race is going to want to play a cleric or a Sorcerer, and it will be a rare person who plays anything that doesn't use INT for casting. That tends to make everyone of that race into clones.

The D&D races are normally made so that there are at least a few classes which they are good at (like giving half-dragons sorcerer flavor, good Int & awesome STR). Which makes the problem a little better, but not by much.

How does this relate to bloodlines? I belive my PCs aren't choosing them because they are a little weak (and not quite cool enough to compensate). So I've been thinking of offering any new players (who would start at about lvl 10-11) a bloodline for free (or for some small XP cost like the one you would get using the "reducing level adjustment rules"). The trick would be to give them a better strenght bloodline if it was selected randomly after they have selected their class levels.

This would promote the idea of "survival of the fitest" which seems to lead to characters with low scores dying and not getting raised, while those with high scores rarely die and often get raised.
DM Zoc
08-06-05, 12:32 AM For example imagine the race "smarty Pants" that has a level adjustment of about +4, and grants you +12 Int -2 Wis -2 Cha. No-one choosing that race is going to want to play a cleric or a Sorcerer, and it will be a rare person who plays anything that doesn't use INT for casting. That tends to make everyone of that race into clones.

Not true, in the least. You have to remember the rule where it states that the LA is reduced (by up to one) if the character is playing against the strengths of the race. Thus, a Dromite cleric is a sufficiently interesting character, as is the half-giant wizard.
HorizonWalker
08-07-05, 03:25 PM That's actually a rule designed for Challenge Ratings, not Level Adjustments...although that's not a bad idea for a house rule.

The thing about Bloodline levels that I've noticed is that they are downright evil when dealing with psionic characters.

Since they raise the manifester level for ALL classes, you could be a multiclassed Psion 4/Wilder 2, with two Bloodline levels, have the manifester level of a 6th-level Psion, 4th-level Wilder, and since power points from both classes stack, not really be too bad off as a result?
oddman
08-11-05, 03:13 PM Bloodlines are easily better than straightforward LA. A bloodline only costs you XP not Character levels. And since lower level characters gain XP faster than other party members they'll eventually catch up to the rest of the party.

Paying for a bloodline is like dying and being resurrected. It only makes you temporarily weaker than everyone else, but it provides you with permanent advantages.
MJ the Prophet
08-11-05, 04:07 PM Recall the statement that Bloodline levels are not normal levels, and do not count towards character level. So you don't really end up with a LA of anything; a 2nd level character with 1 bloodline level is still counted as a 2nd level character, not 3rd. So you don't lose those levels in casting classes that hurt so bad with level adjustment. As others have said, all you lose is a little experience.
DM Zoc
08-11-05, 09:29 PM That's actually a rule designed for Challenge Ratings, not Level Adjustments...although that's not a bad idea for a house rule.Actually, it's a similar but distinct rule created expressly for PCs. The only place where it shows up explicitly is in Savage Species, though.

The thing about Bloodline levels that I've noticed is that they are downright evil when dealing with psionic characters.

Since they raise the manifester level for ALL classes, you could be a multiclassed Psion 4/Wilder 2, with two Bloodline levels, have the manifester level of a 6th-level Psion, 4th-level Wilder, and since power points from both classes stack, not really be too bad off as a result?
I do not believe that bloodline levels increase your power point reserve, anymore than the increase the spells per day of a sorcerer. It's the difference between an ability which improves with level and an ability based on class level.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
codexia 07-29-05, 11:52 PM	Nobody in my campaign seems to like them at all :/ Granted, not all of them are powerful, but some of them... The drawback they mention is the level requirements. And I do agree with them...is a greater bloodline worth the 3 levels its going to take from you? I was considering doubling the effect of bloodlines (only for a couple certain classes that are more in tune with their natural powers) but I wasn't sure if this would break bloodlines, or just make them viable for my players. Opinions please ^_^ are we just missing something that would be obvious to more experienced players? I've been playin more years then I can count, but...only a year into 3.5 now
Elvintry 07-30-05, 10:31 PM	hmmm...well from my experience....bloodlines are a good trade off....at least the major ones are...the others don't give that much...I would say that if you want a character to have a little more bite...without the level adjustment of a template...it works...this works well especially if you want every one to be the same level...but maybe one with a little extra....please comment on my post about bloodlines...if you would...click on this link:Favored of Deity Bloodlines (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=472256)
Nani? 07-31-05, 08:15 AM	I like it for a RP standpoint. For example, have a half elf, raised by her human father after a one night stand/basket on the porch months latter encounter. The Fey Bloodline makes you wonderif she is indeed a "half elf" or is mother possibly something else? All the Best, Nani?
Lina_Inverse 07-31-05, 12:07 PM	there worthless.like most thinks with a LA there intentionally underpowered.
greatmoat 08-01-05, 10:50 AM	there worthless.like most thinks with a LA there intentionally underpowered. Can someone translate this? :confused:
Lina_Inverse 08-01-05, 11:18 AM	Can someone translate this? :confused: The Creators of D&D intentionally inflate LAs to punish players for not playing the core races.they have stated this.bloodlines are level adjustments as well and suffer the same problem.the cost for chooseing them is inflated past the value of the bonuses.
Nordman 08-01-05, 05:45 PM	Well I dont think it would be good all the time...Like when my Dm forced me into one in the middle of the game cause every new pc hade one. I became a elf efreet with blond hair, blue eyes and red skin with tiny horns....And I was a thief!
Udnamtam 08-02-05, 07:59 PM	First off, Lina_Inverse, you're dead wrong. In my campaign, every single one of the party members has a very high LA race or template. In our previous campaign, this was not the case, and it was tremendously easier as a DM to challenge them. LA's are often very well balanced, the only hangup is the loss of hit points that happens, Second, Bloodlines are just an easy way to take a level adjustmet bit by bit, instead of all at once, which can be a problem sometimes.
Lina_Inverse 08-02-05, 09:42 PM	First off, Lina_Inverse, you're dead wrong. In my campaign, every single one of the party members has a very high LA race or template. In our previous campaign, this was not the case, and it was tremendously easier as a DM to challenge them. LA's are often very well balanced, the only hangup is the loss of hit points that happens, Second, Bloodlines are just an easy way to take a level adjustmet bit by bit, instead of all at once, which can be a problem sometimes. no template is worth its weight in caster levels. is your party entirely non casters?in which case it would be damn easy to challenge them.
Udnamtam 08-02-05, 10:04 PM	tell me, have you ever played with a bunch of munchkins? you might be suprised what the wonders of skilled multiclassing can do.
Lina_Inverse 08-03-05, 10:27 AM	tell me, have you ever played with a bunch of munchkins? you might be suprised what the wonders of skilled multiclassing can do. i play with partys of intelligent casters.which is close enough.but instead of seeing people spazing to bring a fighter type upto par they just rip things apart to begin with. no template is worth the X druid levels you payd for it.
Udnamtam 08-03-05, 02:31 PM	look, if your party is a bunch of casters, keep in mind that your campaign is going to be very different than everyone else's, so i'd think carefully about what you're saying before going about criticizing things.
DM Zoc 08-03-05, 03:19 PM	Lina_Inverse is exaggerating, but is not too far off the mark. It's been officially stated that Level Adjustments are calculated such that it is never clearly better to take a non-core race. Any race or template is considered against the core alternative, and the Level Adjustment is increased to the point where nobody thinks that it is better than the core alternative (which means, since people have varying opinions on what things are worth, that some people will end up happy and everyone else will think it is not worth it). Also, at least in my opinion, casters are played at least as often as rogue types and fighter types. Add this to the fact that casters are stronger in the late game, and Level Adjusted races can't show up in the early game, and you have a very good reason why people don't play Level Adjusted races. You're definitely more likely to have a well-rounded party if you start out at level 1, and that more or less prohibits Level Adjustments. Bloodlines are not Level Adjustments, though, and for the very reason that you can take them on an ECL 1 character. Since you don't have to pay for them up front, they give you slightly less in the long term (compare a major gold dragon bloodline to the half-dragon template, and you'll see what I mean). On the other hand, since you don't have to pay for them right off the bat, every major bloodline is definitely worth it at level 2, (at which point you're reaping minor benefits at absolutely no penalty). The bonus to all effective class levels also has some merit, aside from this. A duelist 1/ bladesinger 1, for example, can have a major bloodline and apply +4 Intelligence bonus to AC from both classes; an assassin can increase the potency of its death attack beyond that attainable by maximum class level, and it can also "invest" those levels beforehand (since bloodlines don't affect maximum skill ranks, you can make up the setback on skills by spending more points at later levels).
Sarig the Genie 08-03-05, 03:32 PM	Our DM gave all the PC's major bloodlines for free. If the whole party is overpowered, it's balanced ;)
Mystyc 08-04-05, 06:58 PM	no template is worth its weight in caster levels. The thing is, bloodlines don't cost you caster levels.
Udnamtam 08-04-05, 07:05 PM	Our DM gave all the PC's major bloodlines for free. If the whole party is overpowered, it's balanced ;) I agree. In one campaign I let the players have all nat 18's. I tell ya, that was a freakin' awesome campaign.
Lina_Inverse 08-04-05, 10:10 PM	The thing is, bloodlines don't cost you caster levels. levels in a casting class.ill take my 9th level spells at 17th instead of 20th thank you very much.
fawr 08-05-05, 11:00 PM	I don't like races with level adjustments because they almost force you into a small number of classes. For example imagine the race "smarty Pants" that has a level adjustment of about +4, and grants you +12 Int -2 Wis -2 Cha. No-one choosing that race is going to want to play a cleric or a Sorcerer, and it will be a rare person who plays anything that doesn't use INT for casting. That tends to make everyone of that race into clones. The D&D races are normally made so that there are at least a few classes which they are good at (like giving half-dragons sorcerer flavor, good Int & awesome STR). Which makes the problem a little better, but not by much. How does this relate to bloodlines? I belive my PCs aren't choosing them because they are a little weak (and not quite cool enough to compensate). So I've been thinking of offering any new players (who would start at about lvl 10-11) a bloodline for free (or for some small XP cost like the one you would get using the "reducing level adjustment rules"). The trick would be to give them a better strenght bloodline if it was selected randomly after they have selected their class levels. This would promote the idea of "survival of the fitest" which seems to lead to characters with low scores dying and not getting raised, while those with high scores rarely die and often get raised.
DM Zoc 08-06-05, 12:32 AM	For example imagine the race "smarty Pants" that has a level adjustment of about +4, and grants you +12 Int -2 Wis -2 Cha. No-one choosing that race is going to want to play a cleric or a Sorcerer, and it will be a rare person who plays anything that doesn't use INT for casting. That tends to make everyone of that race into clones. Not true, in the least. You have to remember the rule where it states that the LA is reduced (by up to one) if the character is playing against the strengths of the race. Thus, a Dromite cleric is a sufficiently interesting character, as is the half-giant wizard.
HorizonWalker 08-07-05, 03:25 PM	That's actually a rule designed for Challenge Ratings, not Level Adjustments...although that's not a bad idea for a house rule. The thing about Bloodline levels that I've noticed is that they are downright evil when dealing with psionic characters. Since they raise the manifester level for ALL classes, you could be a multiclassed Psion 4/Wilder 2, with two Bloodline levels, have the manifester level of a 6th-level Psion, 4th-level Wilder, and since power points from both classes stack, not really be too bad off as a result?
oddman 08-11-05, 03:13 PM	Bloodlines are easily better than straightforward LA. A bloodline only costs you XP not Character levels. And since lower level characters gain XP faster than other party members they'll eventually catch up to the rest of the party. Paying for a bloodline is like dying and being resurrected. It only makes you temporarily weaker than everyone else, but it provides you with permanent advantages.
MJ the Prophet 08-11-05, 04:07 PM	Recall the statement that Bloodline levels are not normal levels, and do not count towards character level. So you don't really end up with a LA of anything; a 2nd level character with 1 bloodline level is still counted as a 2nd level character, not 3rd. So you don't lose those levels in casting classes that hurt so bad with level adjustment. As others have said, all you lose is a little experience.
DM Zoc 08-11-05, 09:29 PM	That's actually a rule designed for Challenge Ratings, not Level Adjustments...although that's not a bad idea for a house rule.Actually, it's a similar but distinct rule created expressly for PCs. The only place where it shows up explicitly is in Savage Species, though. The thing about Bloodline levels that I've noticed is that they are downright evil when dealing with psionic characters. Since they raise the manifester level for ALL classes, you could be a multiclassed Psion 4/Wilder 2, with two Bloodline levels, have the manifester level of a 6th-level Psion, 4th-level Wilder, and since power points from both classes stack, not really be too bad off as a result? I do not believe that bloodline levels increase your power point reserve, anymore than the increase the spells per day of a sorcerer. It's the difference between an ability which improves with level and an ability based on class level.