Bloodlines-what?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bloodlines-what?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
princeofcincinnati
03-02-04, 08:01 PM I've read it and read it over again and again and I still dont get it. how does it work in particualr,
1.If bloodlines are stronger than regular characters, how do you handle this? ECL?
2. How do you determine which powerlevel you get?
3. Is this a class like Racial Paragons or what?
jagggar
03-02-04, 08:14 PM 1. Bloodline levels. A bloodline level gives no benefits other than allowing you to have your bloodline. If you do not take the bloodline level, by the specified character level, you do not gain any further bloodline traits and you suffer a 20% experience penalty. Refer to table 1-2 on page 20

2. If your DM allows, you can probably pick it. To randomly decide upon a bloodline, roll on table 1-3 on page 30 to decide upon the strength of the bloodline, then on table 1-4 for a Minor bloodline, table 1-5 for Intermediate, or table 1-6 for Major.

3. Bloodlines are like traits you inherent from a non-normative racial parent. For example, if you have a dragon bloodline, you've probably got an ancester that is a dragon in your family tree.
Eagle Prince
03-02-04, 08:48 PM I missed this too the first time I saw it. Its explained on page 19 and 20, there's also a table that shows when you have to take a level of "bloodline" by for the 3 different levels of bloodline.

So if you have a 15th level paladin with a major celestial bloodline, you would also need to have taken 3 levels of "bloodline". So you'd actually be an 18th level character and have all the bloodline abilities of 18th level and lower. You would also gain your feat for being an 18th level character, and for all your class level/character level dependant stuff you get to add on your 3 levels of bloodline. So even though you are only a 15th level paladin, you figure out your Lay On Hands ability as if you were 18th level paladin, your smite evil damage as if you were an 18th level paladin, your special mount as if you were an 18th level paladin, and your spellcasting level as if you were an 18th level paladin (but only for caster level, not for how many spells per day you get).
NorthSaber
03-03-04, 02:49 AM The Bloodlines are like gradual templates, which don't technically add to your character level, but do add to your ECL (i.e. they have an incrementally increasing LA). What makes Bloodlines unusual - compared to the "real" templates - is that they add to your class levels for some abilities, such as spellcasting power and class abilities such as Lay On Hands.

They're fairly confusing and not really worth it, but great for flavor.
jedrious
03-07-04, 04:29 PM funny thing is I don't see anything in the bloodlines section limiting a character to one bloodline
NorthSaber
03-07-04, 06:38 PM Originally posted by jedrious
funny thing is I don't see anything in the bloodlines section limiting a character to one bloodline

I noticed this too, but I guess it's because a bloodline is like a template, but not as restricting. There's no reason why your great-grand-father couldn't have been a shapechanged gold dragon and your great-grant-mother a doppelganger...

This can result in overpowered combinations in one-shot adventures where you don't have to worry about paying the bloodline levels, but in regular campaigns it shouldn't be a problem; taking more than one bloodline would reduce your ultimate power too much (for example a 20th level wizard with two major bloodlines would only get 7th level spells).
jedrious
03-07-04, 07:01 PM ah but a major gold/silver dragon/major titan with the dragon samurai prc would have 2 deadly breath weapons usable in an antimagic field and would be wielding a warhammer twice his size
Paraboombo
03-07-04, 07:19 PM And have 11 hit dice at 20th level...
jedrious
03-07-04, 07:39 PM ah but you've also missed the part about bloodline levels not adding to character level which makes them unique on the xp chart

character takes all 3 bloodlines mentioned, after second level (when he has 1000xp) he needs his character level x1000 (in this case 2000 xp) to raise a level, he wisely chooses to take a bloodline level, to get to his next level he needs to earn his charcter level x 1000 to gain another level (in this case again 2000) so at 5000 xp he again wisely chooses to take a bloodline level, once again to find out how much xp is needed to atain the next level we multiply his character level by 1000 (once again getting 2000) so at 7000 xp he takes his 3rd bloodline level and we once again multiply character level by 1000 to get the xp needed to achieve the next level so at 9000 xp he takes another class level, at 12000 he takes another, at 16000 he takes his fifth, when he achieves 21000 he chooses to take his fourth bloodline level, at 26000(remembering that character level is 5) takes his fifth, at 31000 takes his sixth, and at 36000 takes his sixth class level, at 42000 takes his seventh, at 49000 takes his tenth, at 59000 takes his eleventh, at 70000 he takes his seventh bloodline level, at 81000 takes his eigth, and at 92000 takes his ninth and final bloodline level, at 103000 he takes his twelfth class level, at 11500 he takes his thirteenth, at 128000 he takes his fourteenth, at 142000 he takes his fifthteenth, at 157000 he takes his sixteenth, at 172000 he takes his seventeenth, at 189000 he takes his eighteenth, so at 190000 xp(the point at which people his 20th level) our triple bloodline character is 17000 xp away from being 19th level, hardly the 11 hit dice at 20th level that you suggest, also note that our blooded friend has been dropping the average party level this entire time allowing for faster xp gain for the party as a whole
badger3k
03-07-04, 09:46 PM Huh?

That last post confused the H out of me. A bloodline level is basically a blank level for experience, but when you take one, you do get certain benefits:

1) It counts as a normal level for Max Skill Ranks

2) It counts for any level-based ability (such as caster level, or other abilities based on character level).

If a character has two classes, say a sorcerer/cleric of 4/4 with 2 bloodline levels, his caster level in each would be 6/6, and his level for skills is considered 10.

The bloodline level uses the same XP as whatever the level is normally - a second level character who has 3000 xp and takes a bloodline level is a level 2 character with 3000 xp. When he gains 3k more, to 6000, he can become a 3rd level character with 6000 xp, same as a creature with an ECL+1. If he's a spellcaster, his caster level would be 4 (at 6000xp), and level 4 for duration, etc, but he still has spells per day of a 3rd level caster.

It's all on pg 19-20.
Necroblivion
03-08-04, 02:59 AM As for multiple bloodlines, I think I have a solution. To impose balance, you could necessitate that you would have to take an additional level of Bloodline "Class" per each bloodline you posess, the kicker is that they would be one level lower than your initial bloodline. I think that this would keep people from taking more than two certainly, and most likely only take one bloodline.
helicopter
03-08-04, 03:29 AM For organically grown characters from 1st level, it's an absolute no-brainer to take the Lesser Bloodlines. Since you don't have to pay for the level until level 12, you have a very high probability of using those freebies bonuses and never ever having to pay for them.

Based on the fact that relatively few campaigns or groups move a character through 12 levels of progress.

Plus, if you have a build say like, Cleric 7, Sacred Exorcist 3 ... you actually turn undead like a a level 12 Cleric because of the benefits verbiage. Yeah, you gotta "pay" for that bloodline by level 12, but if your campaign is wrapping up, you got a a lot of swag for nothing!
NorthSaber
03-08-04, 04:58 PM I think in the end bloodlines are fairly balanced. Each of the benefits is roughly equivalent to a moderate or slightly below average feat, and the fact that you can't pick and choose each and every one makes them even less powerful. The minor and intermediate bloodlines essentially give you a trade of 1 class level (HD, bab, saves, class abilities, skills) for five feat-equivalent abilities.

The fact that you don't have to pay for them until later is interesting, but it's still a price, or should I say opportunity cost. In case the campaign ends at level 13, for example, and you have two wizards in the group (one with a minor bloodline, one without), the wizard with the bloodline will not have access to 7th level spells while the other one does. Having a few skill bonuses and a +1 to one stat doesn't really seem so good now, does it?

I really do think they balance out well in the end.
Orc Fighter
03-10-04, 02:26 AM I was just getting ready to ask this very question about bloodlines when I saw this post. You answered my questions. Thanks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
princeofcincinnati 03-02-04, 08:01 PM	I've read it and read it over again and again and I still dont get it. how does it work in particualr, 1.If bloodlines are stronger than regular characters, how do you handle this? ECL? 2. How do you determine which powerlevel you get? 3. Is this a class like Racial Paragons or what?
jagggar 03-02-04, 08:14 PM	1. Bloodline levels. A bloodline level gives no benefits other than allowing you to have your bloodline. If you do not take the bloodline level, by the specified character level, you do not gain any further bloodline traits and you suffer a 20% experience penalty. Refer to table 1-2 on page 20 2. If your DM allows, you can probably pick it. To randomly decide upon a bloodline, roll on table 1-3 on page 30 to decide upon the strength of the bloodline, then on table 1-4 for a Minor bloodline, table 1-5 for Intermediate, or table 1-6 for Major. 3. Bloodlines are like traits you inherent from a non-normative racial parent. For example, if you have a dragon bloodline, you've probably got an ancester that is a dragon in your family tree.
Eagle Prince 03-02-04, 08:48 PM	I missed this too the first time I saw it. Its explained on page 19 and 20, there's also a table that shows when you have to take a level of "bloodline" by for the 3 different levels of bloodline. So if you have a 15th level paladin with a major celestial bloodline, you would also need to have taken 3 levels of "bloodline". So you'd actually be an 18th level character and have all the bloodline abilities of 18th level and lower. You would also gain your feat for being an 18th level character, and for all your class level/character level dependant stuff you get to add on your 3 levels of bloodline. So even though you are only a 15th level paladin, you figure out your Lay On Hands ability as if you were 18th level paladin, your smite evil damage as if you were an 18th level paladin, your special mount as if you were an 18th level paladin, and your spellcasting level as if you were an 18th level paladin (but only for caster level, not for how many spells per day you get).
NorthSaber 03-03-04, 02:49 AM	The Bloodlines are like gradual templates, which don't technically add to your character level, but do add to your ECL (i.e. they have an incrementally increasing LA). What makes Bloodlines unusual - compared to the "real" templates - is that they add to your class levels for some abilities, such as spellcasting power and class abilities such as Lay On Hands. They're fairly confusing and not really worth it, but great for flavor.
jedrious 03-07-04, 04:29 PM	funny thing is I don't see anything in the bloodlines section limiting a character to one bloodline
NorthSaber 03-07-04, 06:38 PM	Originally posted by jedrious funny thing is I don't see anything in the bloodlines section limiting a character to one bloodline I noticed this too, but I guess it's because a bloodline is like a template, but not as restricting. There's no reason why your great-grand-father couldn't have been a shapechanged gold dragon and your great-grant-mother a doppelganger... This can result in overpowered combinations in one-shot adventures where you don't have to worry about paying the bloodline levels, but in regular campaigns it shouldn't be a problem; taking more than one bloodline would reduce your ultimate power too much (for example a 20th level wizard with two major bloodlines would only get 7th level spells).
jedrious 03-07-04, 07:01 PM	ah but a major gold/silver dragon/major titan with the dragon samurai prc would have 2 deadly breath weapons usable in an antimagic field and would be wielding a warhammer twice his size
Paraboombo 03-07-04, 07:19 PM	And have 11 hit dice at 20th level...
jedrious 03-07-04, 07:39 PM	ah but you've also missed the part about bloodline levels not adding to character level which makes them unique on the xp chart character takes all 3 bloodlines mentioned, after second level (when he has 1000xp) he needs his character level x1000 (in this case 2000 xp) to raise a level, he wisely chooses to take a bloodline level, to get to his next level he needs to earn his charcter level x 1000 to gain another level (in this case again 2000) so at 5000 xp he again wisely chooses to take a bloodline level, once again to find out how much xp is needed to atain the next level we multiply his character level by 1000 (once again getting 2000) so at 7000 xp he takes his 3rd bloodline level and we once again multiply character level by 1000 to get the xp needed to achieve the next level so at 9000 xp he takes another class level, at 12000 he takes another, at 16000 he takes his fifth, when he achieves 21000 he chooses to take his fourth bloodline level, at 26000(remembering that character level is 5) takes his fifth, at 31000 takes his sixth, and at 36000 takes his sixth class level, at 42000 takes his seventh, at 49000 takes his tenth, at 59000 takes his eleventh, at 70000 he takes his seventh bloodline level, at 81000 takes his eigth, and at 92000 takes his ninth and final bloodline level, at 103000 he takes his twelfth class level, at 11500 he takes his thirteenth, at 128000 he takes his fourteenth, at 142000 he takes his fifthteenth, at 157000 he takes his sixteenth, at 172000 he takes his seventeenth, at 189000 he takes his eighteenth, so at 190000 xp(the point at which people his 20th level) our triple bloodline character is 17000 xp away from being 19th level, hardly the 11 hit dice at 20th level that you suggest, also note that our blooded friend has been dropping the average party level this entire time allowing for faster xp gain for the party as a whole
badger3k 03-07-04, 09:46 PM	Huh? That last post confused the H out of me. A bloodline level is basically a blank level for experience, but when you take one, you do get certain benefits: 1) It counts as a normal level for Max Skill Ranks 2) It counts for any level-based ability (such as caster level, or other abilities based on character level). If a character has two classes, say a sorcerer/cleric of 4/4 with 2 bloodline levels, his caster level in each would be 6/6, and his level for skills is considered 10. The bloodline level uses the same XP as whatever the level is normally - a second level character who has 3000 xp and takes a bloodline level is a level 2 character with 3000 xp. When he gains 3k more, to 6000, he can become a 3rd level character with 6000 xp, same as a creature with an ECL+1. If he's a spellcaster, his caster level would be 4 (at 6000xp), and level 4 for duration, etc, but he still has spells per day of a 3rd level caster. It's all on pg 19-20.
Necroblivion 03-08-04, 02:59 AM	As for multiple bloodlines, I think I have a solution. To impose balance, you could necessitate that you would have to take an additional level of Bloodline "Class" per each bloodline you posess, the kicker is that they would be one level lower than your initial bloodline. I think that this would keep people from taking more than two certainly, and most likely only take one bloodline.
helicopter 03-08-04, 03:29 AM	For organically grown characters from 1st level, it's an absolute no-brainer to take the Lesser Bloodlines. Since you don't have to pay for the level until level 12, you have a very high probability of using those freebies bonuses and never ever having to pay for them. Based on the fact that relatively few campaigns or groups move a character through 12 levels of progress. Plus, if you have a build say like, Cleric 7, Sacred Exorcist 3 ... you actually turn undead like a a level 12 Cleric because of the benefits verbiage. Yeah, you gotta "pay" for that bloodline by level 12, but if your campaign is wrapping up, you got a a lot of swag for nothing!
NorthSaber 03-08-04, 04:58 PM	I think in the end bloodlines are fairly balanced. Each of the benefits is roughly equivalent to a moderate or slightly below average feat, and the fact that you can't pick and choose each and every one makes them even less powerful. The minor and intermediate bloodlines essentially give you a trade of 1 class level (HD, bab, saves, class abilities, skills) for five feat-equivalent abilities. The fact that you don't have to pay for them until later is interesting, but it's still a price, or should I say opportunity cost. In case the campaign ends at level 13, for example, and you have two wizards in the group (one with a minor bloodline, one without), the wizard with the bloodline will not have access to 7th level spells while the other one does. Having a few skill bonuses and a +1 to one stat doesn't really seem so good now, does it? I really do think they balance out well in the end.
Orc Fighter 03-10-04, 02:26 AM	I was just getting ready to ask this very question about bloodlines when I saw this post. You answered my questions. Thanks.