Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Soul Collector 02-22-05, 02:12 PM	Hello Board People, Just a quick question, has anyone bothered to use bloodlines as described in the UA? I can see the use for them from a flavor/roleplaying perspective but it's my opinion that what you get in exchange for a level or 3 is really lacking. Is this your opinion also? Is there an errata for it? Any of you guys make a fix for it? Well, thanks in advance.
Salla 02-22-05, 02:44 PM	We haven't played with it much, but on the surface, it doesn't look bad to me. It doesn't mix well with spellcasters (because you want all the caster levels you can get), but many of them make good mixes with warrior classes. For example: The Titan minor bloodline gets you 5 'perks', including a free Feat (Power Attack) and a bonus to Strength, at the cost of 1 fighter level (which, likely, would only have gotten you that Power Attack anyway). So, a Fighter 19/Titan Bloodline 1 is really only out a level's worth of saves and BAB. Could be better, could be worse. Now, let's look at the Titan Major Bloodline. This costs you 3 class levels total; for a fighter, that's 2 bonus feats, 1 general feat, 3 points of BAB, and your saves. In exchange, the 'important' stuff you get includes Power Attack, Strength Bonus, Natural Armor, Improved Sunder, Constitution Bonus, Spell Resistance, Use Oversized Weapon (an Epic feat!), Remove or Bestow Curse once a day, and Damage Reduction 5/lawful. I'd say that's well worth 3 class levels, myself. Let me break out my percentile dice here and roll a random one to look at ... ah, Red Dragon, this'll be fun. For one lost class level, you get a Bluff bonus, Alertness, a Strength bonus, Fire Resistance, and Red Dragon Affinity. So, one-and-2/3rds of a feat (+2 Bluff rather than +3 for Skill Focus), and a few smaller abilities. Not bad. For two lost class levels, you get all of the above, plus Intimidate bonus, Natural Armor, Constitution Bonus, improved Fire Resistance and Locate Object. Not bad, I'd say. Two feats (Bluff+Intimidate, Alertness), a spell-like ability, better fireproofing. For three lost class levels, you get ALL that, plus Appraise bonus, Power Attack, Charisma Bonus, Breath Weapon (!), and eventually Fire Immunity, along with some other stuff that seems 'less impressive', though this depends on your gaming style (people have learned that dumping Charisma in my games can have bad side effects). I'd probably go there, if Dragons were my thing.
LordofIllusions 02-22-05, 03:06 PM	Hello Board People, Just a quick question, has anyone bothered to use bloodlines as described in the UA? I can see the use for them from a flavor/roleplaying perspective but it's my opinion that what you get in exchange for a level or 3 is really lacking. Is this your opinion also? Is there an errata for it? Any of you guys make a fix for it? Well, thanks in advance. I don't see a problem with the bloodlines variant, other than initially learning how to use them properly in the game. If you do(see such a big problem with bloodlines), simply don't use them. Problem solved, don't beat us in the head. ~~~
CuttinCurt 02-22-05, 03:38 PM	I agree with this assessment. What you get for a level for your character is insufficient. Just look at what you get for a template at a LA +2 or +3 or even +4 Wow! Especially half-fiend at LA +4. Fly at base land speed at avg. manuverability (Wings) Natural Armor +1 Claw/Claw/Bite Attack Smite Good 1/day Spell Like abilities that improve with levels... HD1-2 Darkness 3/day HD3-4 Desecrate 1/day HD5-6 Unholy Blight 1/day HD7-8 Poison 3/day HD9-10 Contagion HD 11-12 Blasphemy1/day ect... Darkvision 60' Immunity to Poison Resistance 10 to Cold/Acid/Fire/Electricity DR 5/magic 11hd or higher ---> Dr10/magic SR= to creatures hd +10 Claw/claw/bite treated as magic weapons for dr purposes. STR+4, DEX+4,CON+2,INT+4,CHR+2 Half-Dragon +3 STR+8,CON+2,INT+2,CHR+2 Immunity to energy type used by dragon in creation 6d8 Breathweapon useable 1/day Claw/Claw/Bite Attack Natural Armor +4 Large or Larger type creatures have wings and fly at 2x base speed at avg. manuverability. Racial HD increased to d12 SpellWarped +3 +2 Natural AC Spell Resistance 11+hd of crit (Goes up as level does) Spell Absorption (Linked to Spell resistance and it gives a boost to the spellwarpeds abilities) STR:+4 DEX:+2 CON:+4 INT:+4 Anyhow, any of these blows away a major/intermediate/minor bloodline easilly...
DM Zoc 02-23-05, 02:18 AM	The major benefit of bloodlines over templates is that you don't have to pay for them immediately. The other benefit is that they stack with class levels for the purpose of determining abilities which improve with level, which is a huge boon to multi-class non-spellcasters (and it's less of a penalty for multi-class spellcasters to take a bloodline than a template). Moreover, from levels 1-2 there is absolutely no downside to having a major bloodline or twelve.
LordArkan 02-23-05, 03:08 AM	Our group was considering having each "level" of a bloodline simply being a +1 LA which you could then immediately buy off. Seems like it could work.
Kintara 02-23-05, 04:10 AM	I think there are probably interesting ways to take advantage of the bloodline levels' way of adding to class level-based abilities. Another perk is that it doesn't slow advancement to certain prestige classes because bloodline levels boost your maximum skill ranks.
Griff_Goodbeard 02-23-05, 09:58 AM	I won't take credit for this as I innitially heard this somewhere on these boards but, I've integrated some moderate bloodlines into the sorcerer class. Now, I'm of the opinion that the sorcerer is weak, especially when compared with the wizard. So for any of my player's who want to play a sorcerer I give them a moderate dragon/outsider (their choice) bloodline at no level cost. If they multi-class or take a Prc then they gain no further benefits for the bloodline. This seems to have worked great for amping up sorcerer a bit with out making them overpowered.
Tuneless Bard 02-23-05, 05:53 PM	first off...levels can be sacrificed at any moment...they just have to be sacked by a certine level...so looking at in a LA +1 +2 +3 perspective makes total sense....you just sacked your levels right off...however...it wouldnt be balanced against other LA characters because the other characters must sack levels for LA right off and have no choice as to when to lose the levels....not having to sack them immediatly is a perk in and of itself which is weighed against standard LA characters... secondly...they arent supposed to be the greatest things in the world...the point of them is that you can take them or leave them...they dont increase the power of your character that much...but dont decrease it that much either... thats a sign of it being balanced, not a sign that its too weak...
thugmeister 02-23-05, 06:10 PM	Hello Board People, Just a quick question, has anyone bothered to use bloodlines as described in the UA? I can see the use for them from a flavor/roleplaying perspective but it's my opinion that what you get in exchange for a level or 3 is really lacking. Is this your opinion also? Is there an errata for it? Any of you guys make a fix for it? Well, thanks in advance. I was offered the opportunity to take a bloodline (per the UA level trade rules) and decided it was a small amount of flavor gained at too high a cost at all levels of bloodline. So I fully agree. Interested in any proposed solutions.
spasheridan 02-23-05, 07:52 PM	Bloodlines are neat, kind of cool, but have limitations. When you look at one and have to waver back and forth between it and your class levels... to me that's balance. Obviuosly a druid / wizard / cleric / sorc is not going to go for a bloodline, just like they avoid +la races. But fighters, paladins, rogues, bards... they all have decent reasons to try the bloodlines. And it makes you're PC a bit distinctive and interesin so. In my book the're OK.
Tuneless Bard 02-24-05, 08:46 AM	i agree splash... if they were any more powerful, everyone would take them...which would make them unbalanced...
Kintara 02-25-05, 03:19 AM	i agree splash... if they were any more powerful, everyone would take them...which would make them unbalanced...Either they are balanced, or they aren't. Popularity doesn't really matter. Drow are popular (in many circles...), but that doesn't make them overpowered for their LA. There's style and there's substance. Balance is a matter of substance, while popularity is a matter of both style and substance. Obviously, the point of balance is that it's balanced, in substance. I think it's somewhat difficult to tell how powerful the bloodlines are at a glance, considering that the bonuses are spread out as they are. Only the major Titan bloodline jumps out at me mechanically, but that doesn't signify to me that they are balanced or imbalanced. What it tells me is that the effect on a character is usually broad and diffuse. The best way to test the power of bloodlines is to compare a 20th level character with a bloodline to one without, making sure to pick a class that synergizes well with the chosen bloodline. I'd run the numbers but my UA is on loan. Still, from what I remember, I'd say that the bloodlines wouldn't be all that imbalanced if they were "jazzed up" a bit.
HailSpork 02-25-05, 06:04 AM	I'm looking primarily at minor bloodlines, since they're the easiest to examine: For 1 level, you're getting +2 to a skill, a feat, and +1 to an attribute. Later, you also get a special ability and a bonus on certain social skills when dealing with members of your bloodline checks. I don't think anybody's arguing that the last power even contributes to whether or not the class is broken. It seems like bloodlines are much more useful if you have a low int and are not a caster. Why a low int? Because you're getting a +2 bonus to a skill. A fighter with an int of 10 gets 2 skill points per level. Seems to be a good deal for him. A fighter also gets .55 feats per level. For simplicity's sake, let's call say the second ability is equally balanced with a feat, and that feat is skillful (+5 skill points). Now, you're getting .45 feats more than you could normally get, 7 skill points, and +1 to an attribute. Loss: hp, bab (.5 to 1 points worth), saves (1 to 1.5 points worth) That doesn't sound like a very bad trade; the fact that you get the +2 skill points and feat earlier (before you're forced to lose a level) probably makes it a pretty good deal. Why doesn't everybody do it? Well, it may be a good deal, but it's still a close trade-off. Also, not everybody wants to roleplay a character with a bloodline. Finally, while you do get a decent number of feats and abilities, you're sacrificing the versatility of a level-up for a group of 3 predetermined feats and 1 point of ability boost.
strenoth 02-25-05, 12:06 PM	vampire bloodline seems one fo the best choices, because fo the crap load of feats,some of which are good prerequs for other feats
Kintara 02-25-05, 12:38 PM	I'm looking primarily at minor bloodlines, since they're the easiest to examine: For 1 level, you're getting +2 to a skill, a feat, and +1 to an attribute. Later, you also get a special ability and a bonus on certain social skills when dealing with members of your bloodline checks. I don't think anybody's arguing that the last power even contributes to whether or not the class is broken. It seems like bloodlines are much more useful if you have a low int and are not a caster. Why a low int? Because you're getting a +2 bonus to a skill. A fighter with an int of 10 gets 2 skill points per level. Seems to be a good deal for him. A fighter also gets .55 feats per level. For simplicity's sake, let's call say the second ability is equally balanced with a feat, and that feat is skillful (+5 skill points). Now, you're getting .45 feats more than you could normally get, 7 skill points, and +1 to an attribute. Loss: hp, bab (.5 to 1 points worth), saves (1 to 1.5 points worth) That doesn't sound like a very bad trade; the fact that you get the +2 skill points and feat earlier (before you're forced to lose a level) probably makes it a pretty good deal. Why doesn't everybody do it? Well, it may be a good deal, but it's still a close trade-off. Also, not everybody wants to roleplay a character with a bloodline. Finally, while you do get a decent number of feats and abilities, you're sacrificing the versatility of a level-up for a group of 3 predetermined feats and 1 point of ability boost.I think you're overvaluing the real worth of those abilities to most fighters. Fighters value HP, BAB, and even Saves quite a bit more than most skill bonuses. Fighters don't get a good enough class skill selection to value it all that much. Would a Fighter really ever bother to take Open Minded (+5 skill ranks)? Maybe, if they needed the ranks to qualify for a PrC.
myunhe 02-25-05, 01:42 PM	In my campaign i have adapted the bloodlines from UA to more suit my PCs. I have allowed each to choose the bloodline:lesser as a feat available at 1st level only. I have made prerequisites for the intermediate and major bloodline feats to include minimum level and previous bloodline feat. THis allows the character to choose(also limited by race) the one bloodline most appealing to them, or none at all. BLoodline feats were simpler to explain to my players and easier for me to keep track of. I am happy with the result. :D
The Soul Collector 02-25-05, 02:31 PM	Ok, I appreciate the some of you that do hold bloodlines are perfectly balanced just the way they are now but I still feel it's just a tick underpowerd for the reasons given above. I think bloodlines is a fantastic roleplaying device and I would hate to abandon the whole idea because the mechanics are off-kilter just a bit. Another problem that people here didn't seem to touch on is that since you get benefits spread over a range of levels, the bonuses you do get don't seem on par with high level rewards. For instance, when you're level 15 - 20, just dripping with magic items and special abilities of all kinds, what does a +2 to a skill or +1 to a stat really mean? Anyways, do any of you have any idea of how to give just a little bit of "enf" to these bloodlines?
obrysii 02-25-05, 02:38 PM	The titan bloodline is nice. At level 12, you get an epic feat for free (Wield Oversized Weapon)
HailSpork 02-25-05, 04:44 PM	Honestly, I was only looking at it in terms of balance. Not actually suggesting taking Open-Minded (that's the one!), just using it for an easy comparison.
DM Zoc 02-25-05, 05:12 PM	Bloodlines really shine when you multiclass. I could show an example, but I don't want to scare anyone with the awesomeness of the power.
HailSpork 02-26-05, 04:53 AM	Can you PM me an example? I promise not to be scared.