Post/Author/DateTime	Post
God of Slivers 02-18-04, 11:06 PM	I haven't got the book yet, could someone give me the jist of the bloodlines? Specificaly, I'm looking to make a sorcerer with a celestial decent, is there anything for that? As much info as possible would be appreciated. Thanks
flyingmoose 02-19-04, 02:44 AM	Bloodlines are bonuses you get from non-base race lineage (sort of like aasimars and tieflings, but more diluted). They look something like the table of spell like abilities half-celestials get based on total HD. They have various different kinds of bonuses and a neat way of doing a graduated ECL called a "bloodline level" which you have to take by certain levels to continue gaining the benefits of your bloodline (1 for a minor, 2 for a moderate, 3 for a major). Here's the Celestial bloodlines: LV Minor 4th +2 on Sense Motive 8th Alertness 12th Wisdom +1 16th Protection from evil 1/day (Sp) 20th Celestial affinity +2 LV Intermediate Major 1st +2 Sense Motive 2nd +2 Sense Motive Alertness 3rd Wisdom +1 4th Alertness Protection from evil 1/day 5th Celestial Affinity +2 6th Wisdom +1 Smite evil 1/day 7th +2 Concentration 8th Protection from Evil Resistance to 1/day electricity 5 9th Charisma +1 10th Celestial Affinity +2 +2 on saves vs. Poison 11th Celestial affinity +4 12th Smite evil 1/day Resistance to cold 5 13th +2 Listen 14th +2 Concentration Improved Initiative 15th Constitution +1 16th Resistance to Resistance to acid 5 electricity 5 17th Celestial affinity +6 18th Charisma +1 +1 natural armor 19th +2 Spot 20th +2 saves vs. Poison Damage reduction 5/evil That affinity thing is a bonus to charisma-based skills made to interact with that race. Bluff, Gather Info, Perform, as a friend of mine so eloquently put, "because everybody loves a mulatto."
tec-goblin 02-21-04, 05:45 AM	Basically, they could be much better than that we are seeing. The good things: there are differences between devils and demons and the different kinds of dragon which make a character more unique than being simply a tiefling or a half-dragon the giant and doppelganger bloodlines are something new and interesting The bad things: I love feys. But I cannot see a reason for having three fey bloodlines, feytouched AND half-fey. It is overkill! The same goes with celestial bloodlines etc I didn't like much their mechanics. They scream "I am weak unless exploited". Savage spieces has done so good work with races, that the new mechanics for bloodlines are pointless. Ok, they provide more freedom than the templates but they could be something like templates whose levels you could take in steps among your carreer. Particularly the rule which says that bloodline levels count as caster levels/class levels for determining spell duration, DCs etc SCREAMS of exploitin (ok, I am assassin 9/rogue 3/monk 5/a major bloodline which gives dexterity and wisdom or intelligence) - I have tons of special abilites, damage reduction, death attack 22+Int modifier (easily +7 with items), stunning fist 14+Wis mod (easily +5 with items) and, I count as a... 23 level rogue for purposes of uncanny dodge! And I have effective caster level 12 as an assassin!
Azri 02-21-04, 10:29 AM	If I had three levels to burn, I'd take the half-celestial template, instead of celestial bloodline: major. In fact, taking aasimir and paying off the ECL, as described elsewhere in UA, looks like a better deal than any of the celestial bloodlines. The bloodlines seem underpowered at first glance. Perhaps if the bloodlines were powered up (+2 to ability scores, +4 to skill checks, resistance 20, etc.), they'd be more interesting. I'll have to experiment with them more.
NorthSaber 02-24-04, 02:51 PM	A minor bloodline gives 5 bonus features for the cost of 1 level, an intermediate bloodline gives 10 bonus features for the cost of 2 levels, and a major bloodline gives 20 bonus features for the cost of 3 levels. Simple math already dictates that you get the most bang for the buck for a major bloodline. In general, it seems that while you gain 5 bonus features, you're also giving up 5 things you would otherwise get for those levels: - bab increase - hit point increase - skill point increase - save increase - class feature increase (including spells/day and spells known) However, you do get the following: - max skill ranks - feats and ability increases for overall char level - effective character level for spellcasting and special abilities (and this stacks to all classes) This means that spellcasters lose the least and gain the most; chances are that the bab lost is only one point or less, they miss the least hit points (although similar %), and for the sorcerer, there are really no class features besides the spellcasting. Also, for a cleric 1 / wizard 1 / druid 1 / sorcerer 1 / bard 1, taking one level of a bloodline would increase all caster levels by 1 (although this character would still be stuck with only 1st level spells, and his future doesn't look very bright). Just as a sidenote: a half-elf paragon / human paragon with the appropriate bloodline can get +5 to any ability score, as soon as level 6 for stats like Str, or as late as level 18 for Int (although the first +4 can be achieved by level 6 for any stat).
foxylady 02-25-04, 05:50 PM	It looks to me that bloodlines cost EXP, but not levels, otherwise having a level 20 bloodline ability would be meaningless. That is, a Rogue 5/Bloodline 1 is ECL 5, not 6, and spent an extra 5,000 exp for that bloodline "level". However, unlike actual levels or LA, his ECL is unchanged and he can progress a full 20 levels in Rogue without being Epic.
joshmvii 02-25-04, 06:01 PM	That is correct, you just have to spend more exp to get to level 20 is all.
NorthSaber 02-25-04, 06:33 PM	I'm gonna have to disagree on this (although I could be wrong). The Bloodline variant continually talks about "class level of bloodline". The character's max ranks in skills increase, as do caster levels. Thus if they didn't count as real character levels, a 20th level wizard with three bloodline levels would have a caster level of 23, which to me seems odd. On the other hand, one sentence puzzles me: "Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does..." However, I think this simply means that the character doesn't advance in a "real class", and doesn't get an increase in BAB, saves, hit points, etc. Assuming you are right and bloodline levels do not count as "real" levels, wouldn't it be fairly smart for a character to take all three bloodline levels as soon as possible, as they would cost less XP? Regardless who is right here, I think this variant needs some official clarification.
tec-goblin 02-26-04, 07:19 AM	Yep, bloodline levels are normal levels, except from the fact that they enhance all level-dependent class abilities of all your other classes(caster level etc)
NorthSaber 02-26-04, 10:58 AM	I'm glad I wasn't the only one who got this impression. Besides, I think that it's relatively balanced for bloodline levels to take the place of regular class levels. Although you miss out on bab, saves, hit points, skill points and class features, you get 5 (or more) feat-equivalent special abilities in return, plus your max skill ranks and class-level based abilities go up normally. I still maintain that the language is unclear, and what makes this worse is that this is an unusual variant - levels that don't give the staple features we're used to muddies the waters.
Paraboombo 02-26-04, 03:15 PM	Actually NorthSaber, it wouldn't matter when you took the levels. It would still cost the same to get to level 5, or level 10, or level 15 as before. The order makes no difference.
joshmvii 02-26-04, 03:39 PM	So you're saying someone with a major bloodline can't go above level 17 without becoming epic? That's basically saying you're buying a higher ECL, and the book doesn't exactly state it that way.
NorthSaber 02-26-04, 07:46 PM	Originally posted by Paraboombo Actually NorthSaber, it wouldn't matter when you took the levels. It would still cost the same to get to level 5, or level 10, or level 15 as before. The order makes no difference. What I was saying is that if the bloodline levels don't count as class levels, what determines the XP cost? If a 3rd level character takes a bloodline level as their "4th level", would his next real level also be 4th level? The unclarity of this case I think supports my interpretation (yours also it seems). Originally posted by joshmvii So you're saying someone with a major bloodline can't go above level 17 without becoming epic? That's basically saying you're buying a higher ECL, and the book doesn't exactly state it that way. Well, isn't that in a way what happens? As you progress in the bloodline, you're effectively becoming more and more like the creature whose blood runs in your veins. And you're right - the book doesn't exactly state the bloodline levels in any fashion. If I were to start running a game right now, I'd handle the bloodline levels as regular character levels (with the aforementioned missing features) as I have stated above. However, this variant is so far beyond the core rules (or at least is worded to seem like it is) that I'd really like an official clarification. I suppose one may be forthcoming in a few months...
Ogre4Hire 02-26-04, 08:10 PM	My biggest bloodline problem? Simple, weak bonus feat progression. Who in their right mind is going to want to wait until they're 16th level to get Cleave as a bonus feat, 13 levels after most people would have taken it? The bloodlines seem to have been something that was put together with some haste and was not put through the "would a Player Character really want this?" test quite enough times. *Rant off*
LyamRunechild 02-26-04, 08:18 PM	Mind you, I am only halfway through the book, but it seems to me that most of it was put together a little hastily.
VanDeBeast 02-26-04, 08:23 PM	I'm a little fuzzy on the bloodlines, but I thought the levels you take a "bloodline level" instead of a normal level were set at 3,6,12 for a major bloodline; 6,12 for a intermediate and 12 for a minor bloodline. Also I recall reading another feat could be taken if you already possess one the feat you are granted. I think they are just trying to make sure all members of a bloodline past a certain power level have that feat. Overall my opinions are mixed. I'm not sure the bonuses justify what is effectively an increasing level adjustment.
NorthSaber 02-26-04, 11:59 PM	Originally posted by VanDeBeast I'm a little fuzzy on the bloodlines, but I thought the levels you take a "bloodline level" instead of a normal level were set at 3,6,12 for a major bloodline; 6,12 for a intermediate and 12 for a minor bloodline. Those numbers are like deadlines; you have to have taken the bloodline level by level 12 (for a minor bloodline for example) to get the benefit, but you can take it at any point before that. "Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of 'bloodline'." Also I recall reading another feat could be taken if you already possess one the feat you are granted. I think they are just trying to make sure all members of a bloodline past a certain power level have that feat. You're remembering the Character Background variant on p. 100. However, this same idea could (and should) apply to the bloodlines. Overall my opinions are mixed. I'm not sure the bonuses justify what is effectively an increasing level adjustment. They rarely are; most often a character with a LA is not up to par with other characters of the same overall level. I'm glad you brought this up though as I noticed a sentence in the bloodline description that resolves the issue whether bloodline levels are actual levels or not: "Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference." (emphasis mine) This implies that the bloodlines do in fact give a LA, but do so gradually (i.e. one level every 6 character levels for a major bloodline, for example). (Edit: my bad, you were right VanDeBeast - if the character already has the feat from the bloodline, any feat can be taken instead.)
Greyman 02-27-04, 12:16 AM	Originally posted by NorthSaber I'm gonna have to disagree on this (although I could be wrong). The Bloodline variant continually talks about "class level of bloodline". The character's max ranks in skills increase, as do caster levels. Thus if they didn't count as real character levels, a 20th level wizard with three bloodline levels would have a caster level of 23, which to me seems odd. On the other hand, one sentence puzzles me: "Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does..." However, I think this simply means that the character doesn't advance in a "real class", and doesn't get an increase in BAB, saves, hit points, etc. Bloodline levels are level adjustment levels, similar to those of Savage Species monster classes or, much more, like Savage Progression's Template Classes. They increase your Effective Character Level, not your Character Level. Part of their benefit is also an increase in all Class Levels for the purpose of determining level dependant effects (such as Caster Levels, Cleric Turning levels etc). One of the effects this affects is the acquisition of bloodline level benefits from the table. Thus a 17th level major celestial bloodline wizard has a caster level of 20, and the 18th, 19th, and 20th level benefits (+1 Natural Armor, +2 Spot, and DR 5/evil). That's how I read it, anyway.
NorthSaber 02-27-04, 01:16 AM	Originally posted by Greyman Bloodline levels are level adjustment levels, similar to those of Savage Species monster classes or, much more, like Savage Progression's Template Classes. They increase your Effective Character Level, not your Character Level. Part of their benefit is also an increase in all Class Levels for the purpose of determining level dependant effects (such as Caster Levels, Cleric Turning levels etc). One of the effects this affects is the acquisition of bloodline level benefits from the table. I haven't really read my Savage Species that well, but I think what you said is correct. I was looking at the book just now, and I think the Minotaur "class" on p. 28 is a good example of what's going on here. Even though the Minotaur doesn't gain hit points, bab, saves or skills at 3rd and 5th levels, his class level goes up. (Although technically his character level doesn't, his effective character level [ECL] does.) Similarly, if you took a major bloodline and invested three levels into it, at 20th level (ECL) you'd have 17 character levels in whichever classes you took (say, Wizard 17) and three "bloodline levels" (similar to the 3rd and 5th Minotaur race/class levels) which increase the ECL but not the actual character level. The fact that the character would cast wizard spells with effective caster level of 20 is unrelated to the fact that he only has 17 class levels in Wizard, and would have to gain three more before gaining Epic Wizard levels. The term "character level" is what's confusing here. Although the character really is only 17th level, his "effective character level" is 20, and he uses all spells and class abilities as if his character level was 20. And since the character was advancing in XP all along, he had to "waste" three levels worth of XP to balance out the gradual level adjustment (LA). Help me out here - would the three bloodline levels count as character levels like the 3rd and 5th minotaur levels do?
NorthSaber 02-27-04, 01:19 AM	Originally posted by Greyman Thus a 17th level major celestial bloodline wizard has a caster level of 20, and the 18th, 19th, and 20th level benefits (+1 Natural Armor, +2 Spot, and DR 5/evil). I disagree with you here - a character with a bloodline would get all of the benefits up to his ECL (class levels + bloodline levels). There's no way +1 Natural AC, +2 Spot and DR 5/evil is worth +3 LA.
Greyman 02-27-04, 01:36 AM	Sigh. I meant that she got those benefits from having 3 bloodline levels on top of the 17 wizard levels, because the bloodline levels raise the ECL to 20. The +3 LA includes everything else on the chart, as well as the increased caster level, max skill ranks, etc. The thing about bloodline levels is that they are incremental. You do not have to take them from the start of your career, yet you still gain some of the benefits before you take them.
Lord Schpungus 02-27-04, 10:51 AM	The thing that's weird is that max skill ranks and caster level (for range, duration, etc) increase with bloodlines. For normal level adjustment that simply isn't the case. I think they did this so the major dragon bloodlines would have some advantage over just going half-dragon. It certainly is a more varied set of special ablilities than a half-dragon.
thugmeister 02-27-04, 11:53 AM	I agree that bloodlines are not well thought out. You get feats like cleave and power attack very late in the progression. For a Dragon bloodline you get the 6d8 breath weapon in the mid teens. Once a day. By that point any caster can do better with their fiddly low level spells ten times a day in an array of different damage types. But you've given up levels to do that. And they're front weighted in the major bloodline. By 7th level you given up 2 levels. So you have (2/7ths) 28% fewer hit points than your comrades. Your BAB, saves and skills are commensurately worse. And your spellcaster level is 2 lower in terms of spells known and castable. So you're effectively a 5th level character who has some extra feats (none awe inspiring), a +1 buff, and some ER or equivalent. Compare that to any 2 level template and I think you'll come out far better with the template. Things more or less even out by level 20, but you pay early to get benefits later which only kinda sorta match up to a 3 level template. It seems like a poor choice to me. Especially if you're playing a campaign which starts at low levels and only goes to 20. You'll spend half the game behind the 8 ball as the slightly weird weakest party member.
jedrious 02-27-04, 01:07 PM	Originally posted by thugmeister I agree that bloodlines are not well thought out. You get feats like cleave and power attack very late in the progression. For a Dragon bloodline you get the 6d8 breath weapon in the mid teens. Once a day. By that point any caster can do better with their fiddly low level spells ten times a day in an array of different damage types. But you've given up levels to do that. And they're front weighted in the major bloodline. By 7th level you given up 2 levels. So you have (2/7ths) 28% fewer hit points than your comrades. Your BAB, saves and skills are commensurately worse. And your spellcaster level is 2 lower in terms of spells known and castable. So you're effectively a 5th level character who has some extra feats (none awe inspiring), a +1 buff, and some ER or equivalent. Compare that to any 2 level template and I think you'll come out far better with the template. Things more or less even out by level 20, but you pay early to get benefits later which only kinda sorta match up to a 3 level template. It seems like a poor choice to me. Especially if you're playing a campaign which starts at low levels and only goes to 20. You'll spend half the game behind the 8 ball as the slightly weird weakest party member. where did you see a per day limit on the breath weapon
thugmeister 02-27-04, 01:16 PM	I didn't see it in unearthed. I inferred it from the half-dragon template which has the same 6d8 breath weapon. That conclusion was also reached on another bloodline thread here.
Naga_Slayer 02-27-04, 01:47 PM	I love feys. But I cannot see a reason for having three fey bloodlines, feytouched AND half-fey. It is overkill! This book was made to interact with the three corebooks. Feytouched and Half Fey are from Fiend Folio, so it is nowhere near overkill.
NorthSaber 02-27-04, 04:12 PM	Originally posted by thugmeister But you've given up levels to do that. And they're front weighted in the major bloodline. By 7th level you given up 2 levels. On the other hand, a major bloodline gives you the full 20 special features for the cost of 3 levels, while minor and intermediate bloodlines give 5 specials / level. Plus, you do have the option of delaying taking a bloodline level for some time, although there will be an XP penalty. Also, the "buying off LA" variant just before the bloodline variant might be usable here (I don't have the book with me right now though).