Bonus Feat Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bonus Feat Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xeviat-DM
01-17-05, 06:18 AM My campaign has 10 base classes: Berserker, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Knight (my own design), Psion, Rogue, Savant (my own design), Sorcerer, Wizard. Every class, except the Wizard, has recieved some amount of modification; some heavier than others. When I stepped back to analyze it, I noticed something interesting; only my berserker, cleric, druid, rogue, and sorcerer lacked a set of bonus feats.

That got me to think about my Rogue. The PHB says that some rogues are "stealthy thieves", "silver-tongued tricksters", "scouts, infiltrators, spies, diplomats, or thugs". My problem with this is that not all of these rogues need sneak attack. My other issue is that sneak attack seems to be an ability that anyone could learn, it just doesn't scream "class ability" to me.

So, in the spirit of Unearthed Arcana, varient classes, and the generic class system, here is my idea:

Rogue
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Bonus Feat, Trap Finding
2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Evasion
3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Trap Sense +1
4th +3 +1 +4 +1 Bonus Feat, Uncanny Dodge
5th +3 +1 +4 +1
6th +4 +2 +5 +2 Trap Sense +2
7th +5 +2 +5 +2 Bonus Feat
8th +6 +2 +6 +2 Improved Uncanny Dodge
9th +6 +3 +6 +3 Improved Evasion, Trap Sense +3
10th +7 +3 +7 +3 Bonus Feat
11th +8 +3 +7 +3
12th +9 +4 +8 +4 Trap Sense +4
13th +9 +4 +8 +4 Bonus Feat
14th +10 +4 +9 +4 Skill Mastery
15th +11 +5 +9 +5 Trap Sense +5
16th +12 +5 +10 +5 Bonus Feat
17th +12 +5 +10 +5
18th +13 +6 +11 +6 Trap Sense +6
19th +14 +6 +11 +6 Bonus Feat
20th +15 +6 +12 +6 Skill Mastery

Still unsure on the exact bonus feat list, but it should include a number of the dodge and combat expertise feats, things like improved initiative and combat reflexes, skill focus and the +2/+2 skill feats, and the feats that are converted from former rogue abilities. I left Skill Mastery as part of the rogue's progression because I feel that that is truely a rogue ability; unless other people say otherwise.

NEW FEATS

SNEAK ATTACK [GENERAL]
Requirements: Slight of Hand 4 ranks.
Benefit: Gain +1d6 sneak attack.

IMPROVED SNEAK ATTACK [GENERAL]
Requirements: Sneak Attack, Slight of Hand 8 ranks.
Benefit: Increase sneak attack damage by +2d6.

GREATER SNEAK ATTACK [GENERAL]
Requirements: Sneak Attack, Improved Sneak Attack, Slight of Hand 14 ranks.
Benefit: Increase sneak attack damage by +3d6.

SUPREME SNEAK ATTACK [GENERAL]
Requirements: Sneak Attack, Improved Sneak Attack, Greater Sneak Attack, Slight of Hand 22 ranks.

CRIPPLING STRIKE [GENERAL]
Requirements: Sneak Attack, Improved Sneak Attack, Greater Sneak Attack.
Benefit: (As PHB)

DEFENSIVE ROLL [GENERAL]
Requirements: Evasion, Improved Evasion, Tumble 13 ranks.
Benefit: (As PHB)

OPPORTUNIST [GENERAL]
Requirements: Combat Reflexes
Benefit: (As PHB)

SLIPPERY MIND [GENERAL]
Requirements: (Unsure)
Benefit: (As PHB)

My only worry is that combat rogues will suffer by having to wait longer to get their sneak attack. The Generic combat system seems to remedy that by letting them get their sneak attack dice a level earlier. As you can see, I felt that the requirements for the sneak attack feats weren't really fitting, and I felt that granting +9d6 sneak attack for 3 feats was a bit much.

What do you think?
Thelon Fairblade
01-17-05, 09:49 AM Xeviat, you and I think a lot alike sometimes!

I just had this discussion on this thread:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=358622

The end result was that a rogue bonus list that included fighter feats downplays the fighter and ignores the point of the simple multiclassing rules. If the rogue wants to be a better fighter, he should take the hit to skills and multiclass to fighter (plus get more hp, and better BAB).

So my rogue variant simply allows the sneak attack dice to be traded for the +2/+2 skill feats, or Skill Focus.
Grigori
01-17-05, 10:23 AM Xeviat, you and I think a lot alike sometimes!

I just had this discussion on this thread:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=358622

The end result was that a rogue bonus list that included fighter feats downplays the fighter and ignores the point of the simple multiclassing rules. If the rogue wants to be a better fighter, he should take the hit to skills and multiclass to fighter (plus get more hp, and better BAB).

So my rogue variant simply allows the sneak attack dice to be traded for the +2/+2 skill feats, or Skill Focus.

I don't see how it downplays the fighter, he will still be better at combat, hands down. Nor does it ignore the point of multi-classing. It gives the players options. I had a player use the non-SA variant and it worked out just fine. They used most of their feats to supplement their various skills and other abilities. They were an effective infiltrator, who had little or no use for sneak attack or melee combat (unless it was absolutely necessary). I allowed the option for sneak attacking as a feat , but they never wound up taking (or needing) it. It's all about style of play.
Xeviat-DM
01-17-05, 11:23 AM Thanks for the encouragement Grigori and Thelon. I'm not worried about it overshadowing the fighter because I also use a version of Fractal's variant fighter, which gets a bonus feat every odd level and a special ability of some sort every even level (+2 damage with focused weapons at 4 and 16, -1 armor check penalty with proficient armors and shields at 2, 10, and 18, +1 max dex with proficient armors and shields at 6 and 14, improved critical with focused weapons at 8, +1 to hit with focused weapons at 12, and devistating critical with focused weapons at 20).

The way I have it now, the only classes that don't have a bonus feat progression are the "uncivilized" classes: berserker, druid, and sorcerer. I may give clerics one since I've taken so much away from them.
talion09
01-17-05, 05:31 PM Xeviat, you and I think a lot alike sometimes!

I just had this discussion on this thread:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=358622

The end result was that a rogue bonus list that included fighter feats downplays the fighter and ignores the point of the simple multiclassing rules. If the rogue wants to be a better fighter, he should take the hit to skills and multiclass to fighter (plus get more hp, and better BAB).

So my rogue variant simply allows the sneak attack dice to be traded for the +2/+2 skill feats, or Skill Focus.

I came to the same conclusion, but I also added some feats that seemed fitting for a Rogue... ie. the Dodge-Mobility-Spring attack chain, the +2 saving throw feats and also the Investigator & Education feats from Ebberron, plus once I get my Complete Adventurer back from a buddy, I'll probably top the list off with a few more.

I did a quick count through the 3.5 PHB, and the fighter has something on the order of 42 different feats to pick from as bonus feats, with some of them (Weapon Focus chain) being feats you could take multiple times. So I figured that around 20-ish feats on the Rogue list would be roughly equivalent, since Skill Focus is a lot more useful to take multiple times than the equivalent Weapon Focus.
Xeviat-DM
01-19-05, 12:40 PM Do you think the rogue is going to loose out on a lot by not being able to gain +1d6 sneak attack every odd level, having to gain it all in lump aquasitions?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 01-17-05, 06:18 AM	My campaign has 10 base classes: Berserker, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Knight (my own design), Psion, Rogue, Savant (my own design), Sorcerer, Wizard. Every class, except the Wizard, has recieved some amount of modification; some heavier than others. When I stepped back to analyze it, I noticed something interesting; only my berserker, cleric, druid, rogue, and sorcerer lacked a set of bonus feats. That got me to think about my Rogue. The PHB says that some rogues are "stealthy thieves", "silver-tongued tricksters", "scouts, infiltrators, spies, diplomats, or thugs". My problem with this is that not all of these rogues need sneak attack. My other issue is that sneak attack seems to be an ability that anyone could learn, it just doesn't scream "class ability" to me. So, in the spirit of Unearthed Arcana, varient classes, and the generic class system, here is my idea: Rogue Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Bonus Feat, Trap Finding 2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Evasion 3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Trap Sense +1 4th +3 +1 +4 +1 Bonus Feat, Uncanny Dodge 5th +3 +1 +4 +1 6th +4 +2 +5 +2 Trap Sense +2 7th +5 +2 +5 +2 Bonus Feat 8th +6 +2 +6 +2 Improved Uncanny Dodge 9th +6 +3 +6 +3 Improved Evasion, Trap Sense +3 10th +7 +3 +7 +3 Bonus Feat 11th +8 +3 +7 +3 12th +9 +4 +8 +4 Trap Sense +4 13th +9 +4 +8 +4 Bonus Feat 14th +10 +4 +9 +4 Skill Mastery 15th +11 +5 +9 +5 Trap Sense +5 16th +12 +5 +10 +5 Bonus Feat 17th +12 +5 +10 +5 18th +13 +6 +11 +6 Trap Sense +6 19th +14 +6 +11 +6 Bonus Feat 20th +15 +6 +12 +6 Skill Mastery Still unsure on the exact bonus feat list, but it should include a number of the dodge and combat expertise feats, things like improved initiative and combat reflexes, skill focus and the +2/+2 skill feats, and the feats that are converted from former rogue abilities. I left Skill Mastery as part of the rogue's progression because I feel that that is truely a rogue ability; unless other people say otherwise. NEW FEATS SNEAK ATTACK [GENERAL] Requirements: Slight of Hand 4 ranks. Benefit: Gain +1d6 sneak attack. IMPROVED SNEAK ATTACK [GENERAL] Requirements: Sneak Attack, Slight of Hand 8 ranks. Benefit: Increase sneak attack damage by +2d6. GREATER SNEAK ATTACK [GENERAL] Requirements: Sneak Attack, Improved Sneak Attack, Slight of Hand 14 ranks. Benefit: Increase sneak attack damage by +3d6. SUPREME SNEAK ATTACK [GENERAL] Requirements: Sneak Attack, Improved Sneak Attack, Greater Sneak Attack, Slight of Hand 22 ranks. CRIPPLING STRIKE [GENERAL] Requirements: Sneak Attack, Improved Sneak Attack, Greater Sneak Attack. Benefit: (As PHB) DEFENSIVE ROLL [GENERAL] Requirements: Evasion, Improved Evasion, Tumble 13 ranks. Benefit: (As PHB) OPPORTUNIST [GENERAL] Requirements: Combat Reflexes Benefit: (As PHB) SLIPPERY MIND [GENERAL] Requirements: (Unsure) Benefit: (As PHB) My only worry is that combat rogues will suffer by having to wait longer to get their sneak attack. The Generic combat system seems to remedy that by letting them get their sneak attack dice a level earlier. As you can see, I felt that the requirements for the sneak attack feats weren't really fitting, and I felt that granting +9d6 sneak attack for 3 feats was a bit much. What do you think?
Thelon Fairblade 01-17-05, 09:49 AM	Xeviat, you and I think a lot alike sometimes! I just had this discussion on this thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=358622 The end result was that a rogue bonus list that included fighter feats downplays the fighter and ignores the point of the simple multiclassing rules. If the rogue wants to be a better fighter, he should take the hit to skills and multiclass to fighter (plus get more hp, and better BAB). So my rogue variant simply allows the sneak attack dice to be traded for the +2/+2 skill feats, or Skill Focus.
Grigori 01-17-05, 10:23 AM	Xeviat, you and I think a lot alike sometimes! I just had this discussion on this thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=358622 The end result was that a rogue bonus list that included fighter feats downplays the fighter and ignores the point of the simple multiclassing rules. If the rogue wants to be a better fighter, he should take the hit to skills and multiclass to fighter (plus get more hp, and better BAB). So my rogue variant simply allows the sneak attack dice to be traded for the +2/+2 skill feats, or Skill Focus. I don't see how it downplays the fighter, he will still be better at combat, hands down. Nor does it ignore the point of multi-classing. It gives the players options. I had a player use the non-SA variant and it worked out just fine. They used most of their feats to supplement their various skills and other abilities. They were an effective infiltrator, who had little or no use for sneak attack or melee combat (unless it was absolutely necessary). I allowed the option for sneak attacking as a feat , but they never wound up taking (or needing) it. It's all about style of play.
Xeviat-DM 01-17-05, 11:23 AM	Thanks for the encouragement Grigori and Thelon. I'm not worried about it overshadowing the fighter because I also use a version of Fractal's variant fighter, which gets a bonus feat every odd level and a special ability of some sort every even level (+2 damage with focused weapons at 4 and 16, -1 armor check penalty with proficient armors and shields at 2, 10, and 18, +1 max dex with proficient armors and shields at 6 and 14, improved critical with focused weapons at 8, +1 to hit with focused weapons at 12, and devistating critical with focused weapons at 20). The way I have it now, the only classes that don't have a bonus feat progression are the "uncivilized" classes: berserker, druid, and sorcerer. I may give clerics one since I've taken so much away from them.
talion09 01-17-05, 05:31 PM	Xeviat, you and I think a lot alike sometimes! I just had this discussion on this thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=358622 The end result was that a rogue bonus list that included fighter feats downplays the fighter and ignores the point of the simple multiclassing rules. If the rogue wants to be a better fighter, he should take the hit to skills and multiclass to fighter (plus get more hp, and better BAB). So my rogue variant simply allows the sneak attack dice to be traded for the +2/+2 skill feats, or Skill Focus. I came to the same conclusion, but I also added some feats that seemed fitting for a Rogue... ie. the Dodge-Mobility-Spring attack chain, the +2 saving throw feats and also the Investigator & Education feats from Ebberron, plus once I get my Complete Adventurer back from a buddy, I'll probably top the list off with a few more. I did a quick count through the 3.5 PHB, and the fighter has something on the order of 42 different feats to pick from as bonus feats, with some of them (Weapon Focus chain) being feats you could take multiple times. So I figured that around 20-ish feats on the Rogue list would be roughly equivalent, since Skill Focus is a lot more useful to take multiple times than the equivalent Weapon Focus.
Xeviat-DM 01-19-05, 12:40 PM	Do you think the rogue is going to loose out on a lot by not being able to gain +1d6 sneak attack every odd level, having to gain it all in lump aquasitions?