Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MadBlue 01-24-05, 02:12 AM	I came up with an idea today to have higher Charisma grant bonus Feats when characters (and creatures with an Intelligence score higher than 2) gain level-based Feats after 1st level. A character with a 12 Charisma, for example, would gain a bonus Feat at 3rd level, whereas a character with an 18 Charisma would gain a bonus Feat at levels 3, 6, 9 and 12. Low charisma wouldn't have any additional penalties (but hey, you'd be missing out on a bonus Feat). Bards and Sorcerers would benefit from this kind of house rule more than other classes, but IMHO, that doesn't seem like a bad thing. Dwarves would lose a bit of power compared to other PHB races, but many people feel they're pretty much on the powerful end as far as PHB races go. Half-Orcs would be hit hard, since they'd have a hard time being eligible for a bonus Feat (although for my next campaign, I'm contemplating giving Half-Orcs a +2 to Con and a +3 Intimidate Bonus in addition to their usual traits). Has anyone else ever done anything like this before? MadBlue
Kintara 01-24-05, 12:18 PM	Many monsters would get a power boost from this ability. Oh, god. Imagine dragons.... Anyway, it's an interesting idea. One suggestion I have would be to offset the levels so that the bonus feats come at 2, 5, 8, 11, etc. (or 4, 7, 10, etc.). That way the feats are more spread out.
MadBlue 01-24-05, 09:02 PM	Many monsters would get a power boost from this ability. Oh, god. Imagine dragons....Yeah, I was thinking about too. I was originally thinking of basing it on character level but then I thought it would give characters too much of an edge, but not every character will have a Charisma bonus, and there are many creatures with Charisma bonuses, some much higher than the PCs will have. On second thought, maybe I should stick with character level (that way I don't have to start adding Feats to every creature that has a Charisma bonus and 3 or more hit dice). ;) Anyway, it's an interesting idea. One suggestion I have would be to offset the levels so that the bonus feats come at 2, 5, 8, 11, etc. (or 4, 7, 10, etc.). That way the feats are more spread out.Spreading them out is a good idea. MadBlue
Kainy 01-24-05, 11:26 PM	Is there any rationale behind giving characters extra learned abilities for having a stronger personal presence/force? Just curious.
footdownatgreen 01-25-05, 12:21 AM	Force of personality doesnt make sense to me. If you were going to give extra feats i would choose Wisdom. Wise = knowledge of life or more feats. Just an idea
atheolos 01-25-05, 01:27 AM	May I ask why you want to do this? To balance out the classes? To make sure people don't use charisma as a dump stat?
MadBlue 01-25-05, 04:24 AM	The reason Charisma is often used as a dump stat is because unlike all the other abilities, it offers no benefits other than skills. Character classes that rely on Charisma are often seen to be penalized because they don't get anything for having a high Charisma score (and people still go on about how Sorcerers and Bards are underpowered). Wisdom encompasses perception, intuition, common sense, willpower and being in tune with and aware of one's surroundings. Charisma encompasses self-awareness, self-confidence, raw force of personality and inborn talent and ability. That's when the idea for bonus Feats based on Charisma hit me. It's in line with the game definitions of Charisma, and would solve the dump stat problem and the issues with Sorcerers and Bards (and Paladins would finally have the Feats they need to make good use of their mounts). It seems reasonable to me that a character with a high Charisma would have more inborn talent available to them than someone with a lower Charisma. In this case, the inborn talent is represented by Bonus Feats (I didn't want to give all the bonus Feats at 1st level, though, because that would be unbalancing). Of course, one could justify basing bonus Feats on Wisdom (or Intelligence for that matter), but it makes sense for Charisma too, and both Wisdom and Intelligence already grant a benefit outside of skills. MadBlue
Tuneless Bard 01-25-05, 08:17 AM	If a player puts a high ability score into charisma it should be more for RP reasons than just to get uber bonus feats...I personally think there should be a more logical way to compinsate for the lack of power that charisma has for non charismatic characters(for charisma is the most powerful ability IMHO if a character is based around it, after all, you can win battles in one roll) Anyway....I use a modification of action points to compinsate for wisdom and charisma... At 1st level a character gets a number of spirit points equal to thier wisdom modifier and a number of luck points equal to thier charisma modifier... Spirit points, among other things, can be dumped to add 1d4 to a die roll... Luck points can be used to reroll a d20 roll... it gives them a certine edge without making them more powerful in the long run....
Thelon Fairblade 01-25-05, 10:16 AM	Similiar to Tuneless Bard, IMC your charisma gives two extra effects: Escape Points: all PCs begin life with 1 Escape Point per 2 CHA points (not bonus). These save your life when you are "killed", but never replenish. [My DM dice are lethal, this compensates a little.] How does this apply to Charisma? not at all... just an incentive not to "dump stat". Action Points: whenever you spend an Action Point to add dice to a d20 roll, you also apply your Charisma modifier to the total. How does this apply to Charisma? When you are truly "giving it your all", your force of personality (or lack of it) really comes into play. Paladins excel at these moments of extreme heroics; sorcerers tend to spend their Action Points on spell-stuff, so it doesn't come into play as much. Edit: Oh, and I think granting extra bonus feats is *way* disruptive to the entire leveling progression of D&D. You can qualify for Prestige Classes too easily, you downplay the maligned fighter even more (why multiclass to fighter when I can just get the feat I want with a Cloak of Charisma +2?), and you can qualify for some higher level feats earlier as well. You also need to think about the effects of magic items and spells.
MadBlue 01-25-05, 07:05 PM	Action Points: whenever you spend an Action Point to add dice to a d20 roll, you also apply your Charisma modifier to the total. How does this apply to Charisma? When you are truly "giving it your all", your force of personality (or lack of it) really comes into play. Paladins excel at these moments of extreme heroics; sorcerers tend to spend their Action Points on spell-stuff, so it doesn't come into play as much.Actually, that was the other idea I was working with. Charisma granting bonus Action Points. If I do use Action Points in my next campaign, I'll probably do that instead of going the Bonus Feat route. Edit: Oh, and I think granting extra bonus feats is *way* disruptive to the entire leveling progression of D&D. You can qualify for Prestige Classes too easily, you downplay the maligned fighter even more (why multiclass to fighter when I can just get the feat I want with a Cloak of Charisma +2?), and you can qualify for some higher level feats earlier as well. You also need to think about the effects of magic items and spells.Wouldn't work that way. In the same way that you don't get bonus languages and skill points from wearing an Intelligence boosting item or from being under the effect of an Intelligence boosting spell. I don't think it makes qualifying for PrCs "too easy". A bit easier (for some characters and some PrCs) but not "too easy". Why MC to Fighter? Good HD? High BAB? Weapons and armor proficiency? More bonus Feats? Because you envision your character as a warrior type? MadBlue
MadBlue 01-26-05, 03:20 AM	If a player puts a high ability score into charisma it should be more for RP reasons than just to get uber bonus feats...The same could be said for Wisdom and Intelligence, and for low Charisma for that matter (as per the footnote on PHB p10). However, in many cases it comes down to a player choosing between bonuses to their Will Save, Spot and Listen, vs extra skill points as opposed to whether they envision their character as being wiser or smarter. Most often, unless a character is built around Charisma, it doesn't get considered because it doesn't offer anything mechanical beyond granting a bonus to some skills, often cross-class skills, at that. Everyone needs to make Saving Throws. Everyone needs skill points. Everyone needs hit points. Everyone needs to carry gear. etc. Charisma is a measure of inborn talent and self-awareness. As such, there's certainly room for it to grant something mechanically worthwhile to characters of all classes. BTW, I'm not sure what you mean by "uber" bonus Feats. I personally think there should be a more logical way to compinsate for the lack of power that charisma has for non charismatic characters(for charisma is the most powerful ability IMHO if a character is based around it, after all, you can win battles in one roll)That's a bit of exaggeration (and kind of odd to hear from someone saying players should take a high Charisma for roleplaying reasons over game effects). Also, it has more to do with what skills you have access to than with your Charisma score. A Rogue with a 10 Charisma can ultimately be better at that than a Sorcerer with an 18 Charisma, because the Rogue gets Diplomacy as a class skill. Meanwhile, a Wizard could just cast Charm Monster for the same effect, and a Fighter can go toe-to-toe with a creature that can't be influenced that way. After all, characters not built around Charisma are built around other abilities. MadBlue
God of Slivers 01-26-05, 06:40 PM	I like this idea. I've been looking for a way to balance CHA against the other stats, and this is one of the quickest, easiest, and best that I've seen. Have you playtested it yet? How about posting a chart for progression of feats based on charisma score?
allenchan 01-26-05, 07:51 PM	You could do some seriously powerful stuff with paladins and divine feats with this idea.
MadBlue 01-27-05, 02:43 AM	I like this idea. I've been looking for a way to balance CHA against the other stats, and this is one of the quickest, easiest, and best that I've seen. Have you playtested it yet? How about posting a chart for progression of feats based on charisma score?Thanks. I haven't playtested it yet, but the progression I was thinking of works something like getting bonus spells for high casting stats. For example: Cha Bonus Feat at 12-13 Lvl 3 14-15 Lvl 3 and 6 16-17 Lvl 3, 6 and 9 18-19 Lvl 3, 6, 9 and 12 etc. etc. Basically, you get a bonus Feat (if you're eligible for one) when you get level-based Feats. As Kintara suggested, though, it might be better to stagger the progression so that characters don't gain two Feats at a time. I wasn't sure if it would be unbalancing to start with a bonus Feat at level 1 or not, so I started the progression at 3rd. I'm trying to figure out when the bonus Feat would come in if you gain a point of permanent Charisma (through a Wish or leveling up) that would entitle you to a bonus Feat. For example, if you go from Charisma 11 to Charisma 12 at 4th level, when does the bonus Feat you would have been entitled for at 3rd level come in? Do you get it immediately? At 6th level? The next time you level up? Ability Damage, Ability Drain and magical boosting would work on bonus Feats like it works on Intelligence vis a vis skill points (so, for example, Charisma-boosting magic spells and items wouldn't increase the number of bonus Feats, nor would Charisma damage reduce them). Assuming an 18 in all ability scores, at 20th level, you'd get the following: Strength: +4 to hit in melee, +4 to damage, Light Load 100lbs Dexterity: +4 to hit w/ranged weapons, +4 to AC, +4 to Reflex Save Constitution: +80 HP, +4 to Fortitude Save Intelligence: +92 skill points, 4 bonus languages Wisdom: +4 to Will Save Charisma: 4 bonus Feats Wisdom would come out last on paper, but a +4 Will Save is still valuable at any level, especially considering that in many cases, your other ability scores don't matter so much once you've failed your Will Save. IMHO, it balances out the abilities nicely. MadBlue
Aricandor 01-27-05, 02:59 AM	You know, this actually looks fairly good. Wisdom may get a slight boot in the back, but hey, neglect Wis at your own peril! The only ones with big reason to put a high score in Wis are clerics and druids anyway, which are waaaay overpowered. Sure, melee characters benefit from decent Will, but few players bother. Cha can often be neglected with little or no penalty. The feats should definitely be staggered though, perhaps even to 5, 8, 11 and so forth. If you gain a point in an ability score you should be granted the feat next time you level up. This would be to discourage people from putting an 11 (or similar number) in Charisma to put a point in it at 4th level to gain a bonus feat on the spot. Now that I look over it again this is complete and utter brilliance... Finally a good use for Charisma! Now, if my players weren't so narrow-minded I'd use this... I'll definitely suggest it to them though.
God of Slivers 01-27-05, 09:47 AM	Assuming an 18 in all ability scores, at 20th level, you'd get the following: Strength: +4 to hit in melee, +4 to damage, Light Load 100lbs Dexterity: +4 to hit w/ranged weapons, +4 to AC, +4 to Reflex Save Constitution: +80 HP, +4 to Fortitude Save Intelligence: +92 skill points, 4 bonus languages Wisdom: +4 to Will Save Charisma: 4 bonus Feats Wisdom would come out last on paper, but a +4 Will Save is still valuable at any level, especially considering that in many cases, your other ability scores don't matter so much once you've failed your Will Save. IMHO, it balances out the abilities nicely. MadBlue Dex would also grant you +4 to initiative rolls, which rumor has it are important too. Wisdom does look like it gets the least, but will saves being the most vital makes dumping wisdom a poor choice. What about starting the bonus feats at second level, then getting each new one every three?
MadBlue 01-27-05, 07:07 PM	Dex would also grant you +4 to initiative rolls, which rumor has it are important too.Oh yeah, that too. ;) Wisdom does look like it gets the least, but will saves being the most vital makes dumping wisdom a poor choice. What about starting the bonus feats at second level, then getting each new one every three?I was thinking about this last night (but didn't post because I was playing :)). Perhaps it would make the most sense to have the bonus Feats kick in every level divisible by 4, at the same time the level-based ability increases kick in. That way it would solve the problem of figuring out when to apply the bonus Feat if the character's Charisma improved after they were eligible for one. So, levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. Actually, the more I think of it, the less unbalancing it seems to grant a bonus Feat at 1st level as well, since all the other abilities' benefits begin at 1st level. Also, it wouldn't change the number of bonus Feats a character would get before 20th level (unless they had a Charisma score of 24). MadBlue
God of Slivers 01-27-05, 08:51 PM	Well if they get one at first level then every four levels should be okay. Perhaps some playtesting would better nail down an appropriate pattern?
MadBlue 01-28-05, 12:34 AM	Well if they get one at first level then every four levels should be okay. Perhaps some playtesting would better nail down an appropriate pattern?I think so, too. Unfortunately I don't have the time now. I'm in the middle of running an adventure and I'm moving to Hiroshima in early March. My friend is taking over the reigns as DM after I leave so I don't want to leave off in the middle of an adventure. I'm planning on starting up a group in Hiroshima, though, so I can playtest it (hopefully with a larger group than here in Kochi), once I get there. MadBlue
God of Slivers 01-28-05, 12:39 AM	Going to hiroshima? Very cool, Im planning to test it out, i'll post here with my results. By the way, how is japan, my fiance wants to honeymoon there?
MadBlue 01-28-05, 03:09 AM	Going to hiroshima? Very cool, Im planning to test it out, i'll post here with my results.Cool. I'm looking forward to hearing how it goes. :) By the way, how is japan, my fiance wants to honeymoon there?It's a bit expensive, especially if you want to sample a bit of everything during a short stay, but it's a nice place to visit or to live in. There are a lot of interesting things to see and do, and people are generally helpful and friendly (especially the ones who speak English, because they want to practice). I don't want to go into it too much here since it's off topic, but feel free to send me an e-mail.:) MadBlue
cainblueriver76 02-23-05, 05:52 PM	How about basing bonus feats on the average ability score bonus of the character, this would probably work best in a game that uses point based character creation though.
cambric 02-25-05, 12:41 PM	I LOVE this idea!! I start a new campaign TONIGHT...and I'm going to add this to it, based on the 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level progession. So often I've seen players in my group, and the ones that I have a PC in--who does have an 18 CHR!, use it as a dump stat...BUT then try to act as if they are so good looking, self confident, etc... For instance, one of the players put an 8 in for Charisma, then when we met some nobles, he acted like he had an 18!! I opened the book and showed him how people will perceive his "8" and he said, "so, I'm better looking that that and so they should see ME!" :rolleyes: Anyhow...THANKS for this idea!! I have a sorcerer who's going to LOVE you for this...and I was thinking of a way to make him a bit stronger, without unbalancing the class. My DM wouldn't go for this...dang, I would have LOVED to have this... Cam
God of Slivers 02-27-05, 01:37 AM	I have playtested this, albeit breifly. I was doing a test run with some new houserules and this was one of them. I used the every four level progression and can honestly say it wasn't unbalancing during the sesion. I would like to have players lose feats for having a negative charisma, but that might be a little too harsh. :D
Avihs 02-27-05, 02:38 AM	I have playtested this, albeit breifly. I was doing a test run with some new houserules and this was one of them. I used the every four level progression and can honestly say it wasn't unbalancing during the sesion. I would like to have players lose feats for having a negative charisma, but that might be a little too harsh. :D I'm somewhat in agreement with this. Just as with any of the other stats, a low score penalizes ya. At the very least, with a Cha of 8 or lower you lose your first level feat.
Bliss 02-27-05, 08:13 PM	A few responses to this idea ... 1. Charisma is hardly a dump-stat for Clerics (Turn Undead), Paladins (Same Reason), Bards & Sorcerers (For their Spells). That's 4 Classes where Charisma is far from a dumpt-stat. Why add bonus feats to this? (This isn't even bringing up any PrCs that Charisma plays a big role for). 2. What about Bluff and Diplomacy? These are two skills which are highly important to Roleplaying. You have a party of people who have dumped 8s into their Charisma and that party of people is going to and should have a problem in their dealings with NPCs. Charisma is a stat that is very important for Roleplaying purposes. The benefits of a high Charisma are incalculable. The need to unbalance the game by giving it the addition of Bonus Feats seems disingenous to me. You are already hurting the benefits of a Fighter class by doing so. But you also ignore the benefit that Charisma gives to the 4 Classes mentioned above. I mean Strength then is just a dump-stat for Wizards, Intelligence for Fighters, etc. -Bliss
cambric 02-27-05, 08:46 PM	A few responses to this idea ... 1. Charisma is hardly a dump-stat for Clerics (Turn Undead), Paladins (Same Reason), Bards & Sorcerers (For their Spells). That's 4 Classes where Charisma is far from a dumpt-stat. Why add bonus feats to this? (This isn't even bringing up any PrCs that Charisma plays a big role for). 2. What about Bluff and Diplomacy? These are two skills which are highly important to Roleplaying. You have a party of people who have dumped 8s into their Charisma and that party of people is going to and should have a problem in their dealings with NPCs. Charisma is a stat that is very important for Roleplaying purposes. The benefits of a high Charisma are incalculable. The need to unbalance the game by giving it the addition of Bonus Feats seems disingenous to me. You are already hurting the benefits of a Fighter class by doing so. But you also ignore the benefit that Charisma gives to the 4 Classes mentioned above. I mean Strength then is just a dump-stat for Wizards, Intelligence for Fighters, etc. -Bliss Valid points Bliss...but here's what happens in 99% of MY gaming experience, which has been now since 1980: Paladin (Had ONE player try it...so it's never an issue) Sorcerer (Sure, but so far NOBODY has played one) Bard (Again, NOBODY has played one) Cleric (there you have it...but, since wisdom is the main stat, then if the 2nd highest is Charisma, then bonus to the Cleric) The reason I wanted to try this, and my group loved the idea, is for the reason I stated: Everyone BUT the cleric uses Charisma as a "dump" stat but still role plays as if they have an 18! To add some "realism", I offered this to my players...they jumped all over it! Even the fighter, he used his low as wisdom this time...he got an extra feat at 1st level, so he wasn't screwed over. (human, fighter, bonus...wow, his PC is umber, but hey, it's fine by me.) I'm not sure if this would work for all DM's...one of my friends plays in a group that has 1 paladin, 1 cleric, 2 sorcerers, and 1 bard...so they would rock on the feats. As for your comment about strength being a dump stat for wizards: you are correct, but they are pentalized on how much they can carry...Fighters on Int, sure but they are hurting on a few extra skill points...etc. Charisma was the only stat that didn't have major pentalties...as you said, "bluff, diplomacy" and such...but by offering the feat, MORE role playing can happen because someone will actually be able to communicate properly. Cam
CJN 02-28-05, 01:13 AM	Everyone BUT the cleric uses Charisma as a "dump" stat but still role plays as if they have an 18! You could add some more penalties to using Charisma as "dump" stat. Some ideas: - Add a Cha requirement to the Leadership Feat. - Adjust buying and selling prices with player Cha. - Have someone with low charisma get into trouble because of the way they looked at someone. - Have the Cleric with high Cha get all the girls/boys. What the game really needs is more neat feats that requires high Cha.
God of Slivers 03-01-05, 04:16 PM	I really do like this idea, and plan to use this unless something better can be found. However I do have two problems with it as written. The first is the staggered progression. While this is needed to help balance it out it delays the benifits of having a high stat. All the other stats either give your their full bonus from the start or give you a bonus at every level. This leaves many "dead" levels where your high cha is not worth anything. The second is that once your cha gets high enough you cant receive all of your benifits pre-epic, and for people who don't play epic that could be a problem. This makes charisma better than it was and actually makes it useful, but I still think it may need some adjusting.
Tuneless Bard 03-01-05, 04:24 PM	How about you throw some role playing into the game... if you dont have any calling for charisma in your campaign...then players wont use it... If i say specifically at the start of the campaign that it will be a high RP campaign with little to no fighting....suddenly str or con become "dump stats"....so should i give a bonus feat for having high strength? Of course not...because even if the campaign doesnt allow for them to use the ability it doesnt mean they should get bonus points for putting a high rank in it...
God of Slivers 03-01-05, 04:45 PM	How about you throw some role playing into the game... if you dont have any calling for charisma in your campaign...then players wont use it... If i say specifically at the start of the campaign that it will be a high RP campaign with little to no fighting....suddenly str or con become "dump stats"....so should i give a bonus feat for having high strength? Of course not...because even if the campaign doesnt allow for them to use the ability it doesnt mean they should get bonus points for putting a high rank in it... Name the mechanical advantage of charisma. Nowhere does it say that a high/low charisma affects how people perceive you. It will modify your diplomacy check, but thats about it. If I were going to be in a RP heavy campaign I would pump intelligence, that way I could afford to pick up enough social skills to get by.
HailSpork 03-01-05, 05:27 PM	Nowhere does it say that a high/low charisma affects how people perceive you. Nowhere does it say to provide bonus feats. Personally, I try to make charisma adjust social situations as much as I can. Also, what's wrong with it being a dump stat? Of the 11 core classes, 4 classes get a mechanic out of it. For most of them, it's very important. The rest of the people need to put a low attribute somewhere, and if they don't care about their social graces much, there's a good chance charisma will be it. That said, I'm currently playing in a game where somebody has a high charisma without having a mechanic; the person happens to be a swashbuckler and thinks that swashbucklers should be charismatic. The problem with the bonus ____ for high charisma is that it gives a huge bonus to sorcerers, paladins, and bards (clerics don't need it as much) just for giving a high attribute to an ability score they need. Instead of rewarding those 4 classes and anybody else who happens to take a high charisma, just do what charisma is supposed to do: Affect people's initial reactions to you.
MadBlue 03-02-05, 09:48 AM	The first is the staggered progression. While this is needed to help balance it out it delays the benifits of having a high stat. All the other stats either give your their full bonus from the start or give you a bonus at every level. This leaves many "dead" levels where your high cha is not worth anything.I'm glad to hear your playtesting went well. :) It's true that the bonus Feat mechanic works differently from Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom, where you get the bonuses all at once, or Intelligence and Constitution, where you get a bonus every level. I was influenced primarily by the mechanic behind bonus spells, in that you get a bonus spell when you're able to cast a spell of that level. The second is that once your cha gets high enough you cant receive all of your benifits pre-epic, and for people who don't play epic that could be a problem.This is true too, although if you have a high enough Charisma to be eligible for a bonus Feat at 20th level, you'd have to have a 22 Charisma. If you start with an 18 Charisma, and increase Charisma every 4 levels, you'd have a 23 Charisma by 20th level (enough to make use of all the bonus Feats). Of course, once you bring Miracles or Wishes into it, it changes things. Also, if you're playing a member of a race that grants a Charisma bonus and have a Charisma of 24+ at 20th level, you won't be able to get full benefits. In most cases, I think it works OK, though. MadBlue
MadBlue 03-02-05, 10:15 AM	The problem with the bonus ____ for high charisma is that it gives a huge bonus to sorcerers, paladins, and bards (clerics don't need it as much) just for giving a high attribute to an ability score they need.How would that be any different from how every other ability works as written, though? For example, a 20th level Wizard with an 18 Intelligence (an ability they need) gets +4 to all Knowledge and Craft skills, Decipher Script and Spellcraft, 4 bonus languages, and 84 bonus skill points, while a 20th level Sorcerer with an 18 Charisma gets a +4 to Bluff. MadBlue
God of Slivers 03-02-05, 10:22 AM	How would that be any different from how every other ability works as written, though? For example, a 20th level Wizard with an 18 Intelligence (an ability they need) gets +4 to all Knowledge and Craft skills, Decipher Script and Spellcraft, 4 bonus languages, and 84 bonus skill points, while a 20th level Sorcerer with an 18 Charisma gets a +4 to Bluff. MadBlue But the rogue who is dependant on dexterity who has an 18 gets a +4 to ac, reflex saves, initiative, skill checks, and ranged attacks. Thats unbalancing. I think all stats should do nothing to help the characters, the'll just be there for looks. That way everybody is exactly equal and we can all live in peace and harmony. Very well put madblue, if a fighter gets benifits for having high str and con scores, why can't paladins, bards, and sorcerers get benifits for having high cha scores?
MadApplejack 03-02-05, 10:33 AM	I use Charisma scores as the basis for non-combat initiative. When I finish describing a scene, I look to the PC with the highest Cha and ask, "what do you do?" Player's can discuss plans/ideas/tactics all they like, but no one can make a move until the most confident and self-assured person decides what direction to take. The 7 Charisma fighter ends up waiting, watching, and following the lead of others, just as a 7 Charisma fighter should.
Heironymus_Vann 03-02-05, 12:00 PM	Honestly, CHA being a dump stat is a judge-side problem, not a player one... if you need to offer a "special treat" to prevent characters from using as just a "dump stat" then you are not building your campaign properly. It helps to think of social interactions as "encounters"... then you have a "reason" to have a decent CHA, and even to put points into diplomacy, bluff, etc. In my campiagns, a lot of the rewards are based on dealings with other people - having the favor of the duke might give you access to greater monetary rewards or (best of all) access to normally unavailable magic items via his personal "crafter". This assumes you don't run a campaign with a "magic mart" where anyone can buy anything, of course. What about feat training? If a fighter wants to learn a tactical feat, surely you don't just give it to him? he needs to trek up the mountain to the old master of "three mountains style" to persuade him that he's a worthy pupil. I restrict all non core-book feats so that access to them is a "reward", somtimes for deeds and actions, but sometimes you have to be persuasive; a combination is best. How about wizards and those spell components for 1000+ gp... think you can walk into any village mart and buy a jade circlet or a 1500gp mirror? And when you DO find the skilled craftsman who can make it, he already has twelve nobles ahead of you so your circlet won't be ready for another month - but you need it in time for your trek across the Fell Wastes of Sorrow, so you'd better strike a good case (diplomacy with a little bribery, maybe?) to get it NOW! A half-orc fighter with 6 INT and 6 CHA and STR 20 might do just fine at 1st level, but what about at 10th level when he's poorer than everyone else and has crap gear (just stuff he's found off bodies) because no craftsman will gie him the time of day, and no noble lord will pay him for his services? or the CHA 8 wizard who has to do his research and crafting in some cave because no baron will lease him the land to build a proper tower? or for that matter if this wizard needs a 10000gp gem for a spell, but the "finest gemcutter in the land" is too busy and doesn't like dealing with the wizard anyway? where is he going to get one? I could go on and on, but unless your campaign is a mindless series of battle encounters with interving visits to "The Inn" to rest and "The Magic Store" to buy anything in the DMG, no questions asked, you'll NEED charisma, or at least some social skills. Certainly, if the character concept is "low charisma", go with it! I have a 15th level fighter type I play in a campaign with CHA 8... however, over the course of time he's taken ranks in bluff, diplomacy and maxed-out intimidate (+4, +7, and +19 respectively) because lack of social ability became a problem... still not a friendly guy, but he can hold his own in negotiations, deal with nobles and generals without coming off as some hillbilly, and so on. Just make CHA matter, and you'll see it start to be used and appreciated. HV
God of Slivers 03-02-05, 12:31 PM	Honestly, CHA being a dump stat is a judge-side problem, not a player one... if you need to offer a "special treat" to prevent characters from using as just a "dump stat" then you are not building your campaign properly. It helps to think of social interactions as "encounters"... then you have a "reason" to have a decent CHA, and even to put points into diplomacy, bluff, etc. In my campiagns, a lot of the rewards are based on dealings with other people - having the favor of the duke might give you access to greater monetary rewards or (best of all) access to normally unavailable magic items via his personal "crafter". This assumes you don't run a campaign with a "magic mart" where anyone can buy anything, of course. What about feat training? If a fighter wants to learn a tactical feat, surely you don't just give it to him? he needs to trek up the mountain to the old master of "three mountains style" to persuade him that he's a worthy pupil. I restrict all non core-book feats so that access to them is a "reward", somtimes for deeds and actions, but sometimes you have to be persuasive; a combination is best. How about wizards and those spell components for 1000+ gp... think you can walk into any village mart and buy a jade circlet or a 1500gp mirror? And when you DO find the skilled craftsman who can make it, he already has twelve nobles ahead of you so your circlet won't be ready for another month - but you need it in time for your trek across the Fell Wastes of Sorrow, so you'd better strike a good case (diplomacy with a little bribery, maybe?) to get it NOW! A half-orc fighter with 6 INT and 6 CHA and STR 20 might do just fine at 1st level, but what about at 10th level when he's poorer than everyone else and has crap gear (just stuff he's found off bodies) because no craftsman will gie him the time of day, and no noble lord will pay him for his services? or the CHA 8 wizard who has to do his research and crafting in some cave because no baron will lease him the land to build a proper tower? or for that matter if this wizard needs a 10000gp gem for a spell, but the "finest gemcutter in the land" is too busy and doesn't like dealing with the wizard anyway? where is he going to get one? I could go on and on, but unless your campaign is a mindless series of battle encounters with interving visits to "The Inn" to rest and "The Magic Store" to buy anything in the DMG, no questions asked, you'll NEED charisma, or at least some social skills. Certainly, if the character concept is "low charisma", go with it! I have a 15th level fighter type I play in a campaign with CHA 8... however, over the course of time he's taken ranks in bluff, diplomacy and maxed-out intimidate (+4, +7, and +19 respectively) because lack of social ability became a problem... still not a friendly guy, but he can hold his own in negotiations, deal with nobles and generals without coming off as some hillbilly, and so on. Just make CHA matter, and you'll see it start to be used and appreciated. HV What you're talking about are skill checks, how is this relevant at all? Thats like telling someone that if you want to make str a good stat you have to have a lot of swim checks. The fact is that str affects more then a handful of skills, cha doesn't. I shouldn't have to build a whole campaign around a lousy stat just to make it a tiny bit useful. As I said before, in social situations a high int is more important because you can afford to pick up more than one social skill. What do you think is better, +3 to all melee attacks and damage plus a handful of skills, or +3 to a handful of skills? Charisma is weak, there is nothing you can do to convince me otherwise. The purpose of this thread is to discuss a proposed fix, not to discuss if charisma is weak. If you want to debate that use search, there are several threads on it.
jagggar 03-02-05, 12:43 PM	CHARISMA (CHA) Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.I like the idea too, however, how do bonus feats come from charisma based on flavor when charisma is defined as above bold? Where do extra feats come into those qualities?
Tuneless Bard 03-02-05, 12:59 PM	Im running a city based adventure and i cant tell you how often the characters have been hosed by having a low charisma...a 6 charisma effects the initial reaction of the npcs towards the pcs... -3 or lower to charisma : base attitude for NPCs is hostile... -2 to charisma : base attitude for NPCs is unfriendly... -1 to +2 to charisma: base attitude for NPCs is indifferent... +3 and up: base attitude for NPCs is friendly... that right there gives you a virtual -10 to all diplomacy checks...with some people attacking you on sight for fear you will eat them...or trip you in the streets and laugh....spill beer on you on purpose...point and laugh...run at the sight...puke in disgust.... that, contrasted to the one PC with 20 charisma who bassically gets rose pedals thrown at her feet...
Thanatos02 03-02-05, 03:09 PM	Assuming an 18 in all ability scores, at 20th level, you'd get the following: Strength: +4 to hit in melee, +4 to damage, Light Load 100lbs Dexterity: +4 to hit w/ranged weapons, +4 to AC, +4 to Reflex Save Constitution: +80 HP, +4 to Fortitude Save Intelligence: +92 skill points, 4 bonus languages Wisdom: +4 to Will Save Charisma: 4 bonus Feats Wisdom would come out last on paper, but a +4 Will Save is still valuable at any level, especially considering that in many cases, your other ability scores don't matter so much once you've failed your Will Save. IMHO, it balances out the abilities nicely. In responce to this, and other comments about the impacts of Intelligence vs. Charisma / the effects charisma has on the game, I've worked out the effects of a +2 bump to every stat (minus spellcasting effects). Remember also that every mental stat is also a spellcasting stat, which is a special bonus all of its own. You can view it here: A Discussion on the Viabilty of Attribute (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=386990) in Regdar's Repository. On the subject of bonus Feats for Chr. mods - well, first we have to see if we need it. A low Chr. score hurts social skills a lot, and I think it's important to roll said skills from time to time instead on relying fully on role-playing skill. Role-playing is important, but there is an ability differential, and in-game skills make up for it. Also, it gives the stat merit. However, a Feat that grants a Will Save bonus for a high Chr. might be merited, or a Feat that replaces the Chr. bonus for the Wis. bonus on a Will Save ( a homebrew feat at my table ). I think it's important that the bonus relates to the Attribute, but it's hard to rate likeability, so Chr. gets hosed a bit in the rules, IMHO. Still, it's important in its own way.
God of Slivers 03-02-05, 03:38 PM	Im running a city based adventure and i cant tell you how often the characters have been hosed by having a low charisma...a 6 charisma effects the initial reaction of the npcs towards the pcs... -3 or lower to charisma : base attitude for NPCs is hostile... -2 to charisma : base attitude for NPCs is unfriendly... -1 to +2 to charisma: base attitude for NPCs is indifferent... +3 and up: base attitude for NPCs is friendly... that right there gives you a virtual -10 to all diplomacy checks...with some people attacking you on sight for fear you will eat them...or trip you in the streets and laugh....spill beer on you on purpose...point and laugh...run at the sight...puke in disgust.... that, contrasted to the one PC with 20 charisma who bassically gets rose pedals thrown at her feet... Thats a houserule, and a bad one at that. What about a dog? Dogs have a low charisma, does that mean that everybody is unfriendly to dogs? Beholders have a high charisma, does that mean all the ladies throw themselves at the beholders? If someone is willing to listen to you then you get a diplomacy check, which IS modified by charisma, but charisma doesn't and shouldn't modify initial reactions. When I meet a really ugly person I don't become hostile and attack them with a sword, so why should you in game?
Khelvaster 03-02-05, 04:26 PM	lets replace the 4 bonus freats with effects of 4 bonus feats +4 on initiative rolls Whenever you trip someone you do your weapon's damage to them You get +4 on said attempts You get proficiency with spiked chains You get as many AoO's per round as your dex modifier for 18 CHA
God of Slivers 03-02-05, 04:33 PM	lets replace the 4 bonus freats with effects of 4 bonus feats +4 on initiative rolls Whenever you trip someone you do your weapon's damage to them You get +4 on said attempts You get proficiency with spiked chains You get as many AoO's per round as your dex modifier for 18 CHA Thats five things, and if a fighter wants to put his 18 in cha then I have no problem with this. Of course he wouldnt get all of these until a very high level.
scwolf 03-02-05, 05:55 PM	I use Charisma scores as the basis for non-combat initiative. When I finish describing a scene, I look to the PC with the highest Cha and ask, "what do you do?" Player's can discuss plans/ideas/tactics all they like, but no one can make a move until the most confident and self-assured person decides what direction to take. The 7 Charisma fighter ends up waiting, watching, and following the lead of others, just as a 7 Charisma fighter should. This is a deviously good idea. I like! :thumbsup:
HailSpork 03-02-05, 06:01 PM	How would that be any different from how every other ability works as written, though? For example, a 20th level Wizard with an 18 Intelligence (an ability they need) gets +4 to all Knowledge and Craft skills, Decipher Script and Spellcraft, 4 bonus languages, and 84 bonus skill points, while a 20th level Sorcerer with an 18 Charisma gets a +4 to Bluff. MadBlue Actually, a 20th level wizard gets 92 bonus skill points. I love how that's the only level dependent stat in your post, and it helps that your argument that the scenario is a level 20 wizard. You forgot that the wizard gets +4 appraise, disable device, forgery, and search. The sorcerer gets +4 disguise, gather info, handle animal, intimidate, perform, use magic device, and to quote the PHB, "Checks that represent attempts to influence others". Not all influence is a skill. That's basically a +4 bonus in ANY roleplaying scenario. But wait! we're not done yet! A +4 bonus to leadership score is just a feat away! That means your cohort is (on average) 3 levels higher. Your cohort will be bringing a lot of skill points to the table as early as level 6, while the wizard only has 36 extra skill points. Granted your cohorts 3 levels is probably less than 36 skill points, but those 3 levels also provide 1 bonus feat, 3/4 of an ability point, bonus class abilities, bonus spells, etc. Heck, if you really wanted, your cohort could have leadership; those +3 levels and extra feat will go a long way into helping him qualify sooner. That's +3 to his leadership score too. A high charisma also leads you to a pluthera of options for multi-classing. You can take advantage of your high charisma as a bard, a paladin, a cleric, a favored soul (that makes for an awesome Mystic Theurge (sp?)), shugenja, spelltheif, warlock, healer, marshall, and plenty of PrC's. The only other classes that have class abilities that take into account high int for bonus abilities (SP aside, for a reason), is the swashbuckler. Btw, I intentionally left warmage off both lists, since that would be starting over your casting and that makes very little sense. Same with wu-jen on the wizard list. That makes about as much sense as starting over as a wizard. The truth is, sorcerers are balanced as is against the wizard. Giving them tons of bonus feats for their high charisma WILL upset this balance. And I'm not talking about balance between their main stat of charisma vs. the wizard's main stat of intelligence, I'm talking overall balance. [edit: Oh, I forgot. If the sorcerer ever goes incorporeal, the +4 charisma will provide +4 deflection to AC. I'm sure there are plenty of ways a level 20 sorcerer can go incorporeal, at least 2/day more than the wizard (6 spells per spell level vs 4, up to 9th). Will Ethereal Jaunt (7th level) do the trick?]
MadBlue 03-02-05, 11:31 PM	lets replace the 4 bonus freats with effects of 4 bonus feats +4 on initiative rolls Whenever you trip someone you do your weapon's damage to them You get +4 on said attempts You get proficiency with spiked chains You get as many AoO's per round as your dex modifier for 18 CHALet's replace the 92 bonus skill points for high Intelligence with the effects of 4 maxed out skills: 23 Ranks in Jump, Tumble, Climb and Swim. Welcome to the Einstein Olympics! :P It would probably be "more realistic" to restrict bonus Feats to things that sould be seen as "inherent" (such as skill-boosting, draconic, save modifiers, etc) but then it would be up to the DM to decide which ones are OK as each new sourcebook comes out, and it's much simpler to not restrict which Feats are allowable. In the same way bonus skill points for high Intelligence aren't restricted. Actually, a 20th level wizard gets 92 bonus skill points. I love how that's the only level dependent stat in your post, and it helps that your argument that the scenario is a level 20 wizard.What's wrong with that? You brought up "giving a huge bonus to Sorcerers, Bards and Paladins just for giving a high attribute to an ability score they need", so I compared what a class that needs a high Intelligence gets over 20 levels compared to what a class that needs a high Charisma gets over 20 levels. I picked a stat that gives level-dependent bonuses because the bonus Feats for high Charisma, which you are criticizing as "giving a huge bonus", would be level-dependent. Is 4 bonus Feats over 20 levels really a "huge bonus" compared to 92 bonus skill points over 20 levels? I picked the Sorcerer and Wizard because, while the Bard and Paladin depend on Charisma, they're multiple ability dependent classes, but the Sorcerer and Wizard aren't. I didn't include some skills because they're cross-class for the classes I compared. I didn't include Feats because you have to select Feats at the expense of others. Besides, all abilities have Feats keyed to them. If high Charisma is great because of what it means for Leadership, then high Dexterity is great because of what it means for Manyshot. I missed the "Checks that represent attempts to influence others", but other than the opposed Charisma check for getting a Charmed character to do something they wouldn't ordinarily do, the specifics of what an "attempt to influence others" means outside of general skill use is pretty vague. Besides, you can make ability checks with all abilities, so in that regard, Charisma doesn't grant anything other abilities don't grant. Regarding the AC factor when incorporeal, it makes sense, since Ghosts, Wraiths, etc. get a Charisma-based deflection bonus to AC, but I didn't find it in the description of Charisma, Incorporeality, Ethereal Jaunt or Etherealness. - - - By the way, Thanatos02, there's a Feat called "Force of Personality" in Complete Adventurer that does what your home-brewed Feat does (vs mind-affecting spells and abilities). There's also a Feat called "Insightful Reflexes" that uses Intelligence for Reflex saves. I'll check out the thread you linked to. MadBlue
MadBlue 03-02-05, 11:59 PM	I like the idea too, however, how do bonus feats come from charisma based on flavor when charisma is defined as above bold? Where do extra feats come into those qualities?I'm also working with flavor text from outside of the general description of Charisma. Sorcerers and Bards get their powers through Charisma because of "inborn talent and ability". High Charisma characters are described as "confident" (PHB p10), the MM says Charisma represents "sense of self" (MM p298) and the flavor text for the "Force of Personality" Feat (CV p109) says "You have cultivated an unshakable belief in your self-worth. Your sense of self and purpose are so strong that they bolster your willpower". The "unshakable belief" and "bolster your willpower" parts are what the Feat is about, but "self-worth" and "sense of self and purpose" are Charisma-related. I figure a higher Charisma character should be able to push themselves harder to achieve, and draw upon more innate talent, than a character with a lower Charisma. Abilities that are inborn or evoked rather than learned are often represented through Feats. Of course that's not true for all Feats, but a stronger sense of purpose could account for picking up "learned" Feats that are valuable to someone with a sense of adventure. Number of Feats, unlike most other character mechanics (HP, AC, skills, attack and damage, etc.), aren't governed by any ability score and Charisma doesn't really govern character mechanics outside of the skills it modifies. So, it just fell right into place. Getting the mechanic down took some time, though. MadBlue
HailSpork 03-03-05, 12:56 AM	I didn't include some skills because they're cross-class for the classes I compared. I didn't include Feats because you have to select Feats at the expense of others. Besides, all abilities have Feats keyed to them. If high Charisma is great because of what it means for Leadership, then high Dexterity is great because of what it means for Manyshot. Well, I did. My point is: 1) Charisma is more useful than you summed up, particularly when the GM is good. I don't know your GM (or you) so I don't know if you're good at stuff like that, but... 2) Charisma also opens yourself up to several other options including several multiclass and feats. 3) Sorcerers are already balanced against wizards and this throws a proverbial monkey wrench. Check here for the deflection thing: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a About 1/3 down the page. Anyway, I'm out of this. Either I've been heard or I'm not going to be.
MadBlue 03-03-05, 10:29 AM	My point is: 1) Charisma is more useful than you summed up, particularly when the GM is good. I don't know your GM (or you) so I don't know if you're good at stuff like that, but...I'm the DM, and I am good at stuff like that. However, roleplaying has more to do with the character's Charisma score. Intelligence and Wisdom have just as much roleplaying potential as Charisma. Of course, they don't modify any social skill rolls, but then again, modifying skill rolls isn't what roleplaying is about. 2) Charisma also opens yourself up to several other options including several multiclass and feats.As does any ability. My point is that Charisma doesn't do anything that other abilities don't do. Yet all abilities other than Charisma grant a valuable mechanical (other than skill) bonus that applies to all characters who give it a score of 12+. There's no reason why any ability should be less valuable in a "kick in the door and take their gold" style game than in a heavy roleplaying style game. I don't believe that Charisma is meant to be a litmus test to separate "ROLEplayers" from "ROLLplayers". 3) Sorcerers are already balanced against wizards and this throws a proverbial monkey wrench.That, as you probably well know, is debatable. Check here for the deflection thing: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a About 1/3 down the page.Thanks for this. Didn't know about it. Anyway, I'm out of this. Either I've been heard or I'm not going to be.Or as they say in the vernacular, "Whatever". MadBlue (Signing off for now. Moving this weekend and won't have internet access until sometime next week. Somehow, I'll manage ;))
Tuneless Bard 03-04-05, 11:29 AM	Thats a houserule, and a bad one at that. What about a dog? Dogs have a low charisma, does that mean that everybody is unfriendly to dogs? Beholders have a high charisma, does that mean all the ladies throw themselves at the beholders? If someone is willing to listen to you then you get a diplomacy check, which IS modified by charisma, but charisma doesn't and shouldn't modify initial reactions. When I meet a really ugly person I don't become hostile and attack them with a sword, so why should you in game? A dog has a charisma of 6...which by my chart would produce an unfriendly attitude.... so if a stray dog wanders to a shop owner and asks for some hand-outs...the shop owner will yell and throw things at it to try and get it to go away....people will avoid the dog...not sure of its intensions....the reactions would be far more than just indifferent...you would not have people immediatly going out of thier way to be friendly to the dog... If the NPC has ranks in handle animal or is for some reason fond of dogs...then obviously the reaction would be different...but i did say base attitude and not set attitude....just as an ugly orc shopkeeper would react better to the ugly orc player... now...if the dog was possesed by an owner....there is first a bond that is created between dog and owner...so that attitude doesnt matter...and how the dog reacts in social situtations is under much more strict control of the owner through handle animal checks...so people are likely to respond to the dog differently... Also...in the matter of beholders...we are dealing with something not normaly seen in a city setting...so i dont think it really applys here...strange races apply thier own modifiers on things...just as does religion, faction, alignment, class, and social standing... to return....we are speaking about base reaction... Its possible you can apply a modifier for strange race or type and it would have a -1 to -6 influence depending...so people would be generally hostile to a lizardman with 5 charisma....simply because he's a lizardman, certine people would attack him on sight...so you could lower the beholder base reaction to hostile simply because he's a beholder....but amung other beholder peers...they would be pretty helpful towards him.... BUT! one thing to remember about the high charisma beholder.... the attitude scale doesnt mention fear....beholders use fear for thier advantage and can be pretty good about getting thier way if they can get the NPCs to stop running.... I think in general you wont have many NPCs acting hostile to the beholder...and if the beholder wants something....most of the NPCs will be pretty helpful...
Arkadij the Satyr 03-08-05, 02:55 PM	Great idea, MadBlue! This definitely goes into the book of "Probationary House Rules". :)
MadBlue 03-13-05, 11:45 PM	The Flip Side: If characters with high Charisma get bonus Feats, characters with low Charisma get penalty Flaws, gained at the same levels as bonus Feats would be gained. As low-Charisma characters gain in level, more flaws in their character emerge (if they have a penalty of -2 or more, that is). So, for example, a character with a Charisma of 7 would gain a Flaw at 1st level and another at 4th level - unless he improved his Charisma at 4th level (in which case, he wouldn't gain another Flaw). A character with a 9 Charisma can "buy off" his Flaw at 4th level by improving his Charisma. An analogy for a 7 (or lower) Charisma character gaining additional Flaws as he levels up is using a cracked pot. It might not leak at first, but the more you use it, the more flawed it becomes. Like bonus Feats, Flaws only apply when a Charisma change is permanent. Being affected by Charisma damage or drain, or a similar magical effect, isn't enough to give the character Charisma-based Flaws (in the same way that donning a Headband of Intellect doesn't gain a characer mores skill points). Bonus Feats and Flaws only apply to creatures with an Intelligence of 3 or higher. Animals, non-intelligent undead and contructs, etc. aren't affected by Feats and Flaws for high and low Charisma scores. Low-Charisma Dwarves tend to have the "Shaky" Flaw (taking a -2 penalty on ranged combat). They're not necessarily "shaky", but living underground, with darkvision only out to 60', they tend to focus on melee to the detriment of ranged combat. Low-Charisma Half-Orc Barbarians often have the "Blind Rage" or "Uncontrollable Rage" Flaws (from Dragon 325). MadBlue
Lord Welkerfan 03-19-05, 11:40 AM	So, what is the actual agreed upon progression for the bonus feats? Is it at 1st and then every three levels thereafter, at 1st, 2nd, and every 3 levels thereafter, 1st, 3rd and every 3 levels thereafter, or something else?
cambric 03-19-05, 11:49 AM	I'm doing: 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th...and so far, it's added a lot of flavor. I currently have the best "looking" PC's I've ever had in a party...lowest Charisma is now 12...highest 16. Everyone loves it...and it doesn't seem to be overpowering...and unless they focus putting every ability increase in Charisma, which means they would be sacraficing Int, wis, str, and dex...nobody will get a bonus feat from it after 12th level. No bards or sorcerers in the party...the cleric didn't focus much on his Charisma, so I'll see how it works over an entire campaign.
MadBlue 03-19-05, 12:36 PM	So, what is the actual agreed upon progression for the bonus feats? Is it at 1st and then every three levels thereafter, at 1st, 2nd, and every 3 levels thereafter, 1st, 3rd and every 3 levels thereafter, or something else? Cha Bonus Feat at 12-13 Lvl 1 14-15 Lvl 1 and 4 16-17 Lvl 1, 4 and 8 18-19 Lvl 1, 4, 8 and 12 etc. The one cambric's using is the one that people have seemed to agree works best. It matches the levels where you could put a point into Charisma and be eligible for a Bonus Feat. Also, it means that If you start with a Charisma of 18 and increases Charisma every 4 levels over 20 levels (or at least 16), you'll be getting the maximum amounts of Bonus Feats over 20 levels. So every 4 levels works out rather nicely IMHO. MadBlue
Tuneless Bard 03-20-05, 12:48 AM	I personally think allowing a character to start play with four feats is a bit much...(human fighter with 12 charisma) if your going to do it at all...dont give them a feat at first...make the scale start at a higher level.... though i still dont agree with bribing characters into getting high charisma scores....
Kintara 03-20-05, 01:45 AM	I personally think allowing a character to start play with four feats is a bit much...(human fighter with 12 charisma) if your going to do it at all...dont give them a feat at first...make the scale start at a higher level.... though i still dont agree with bribing characters into getting high charisma scores....Well, you can start it in the middle, if you want. Cha Bonus Feat at 12-13 Lvl 8 14-15 Lvl 8 and 12 16-17 Lvl 4, 8 and 12 18-19 Lvl 4, 8, 12 and 16 etc. Edit: You could gain feats "retroactively," in a sense, if your bonus goes up. Past level 20, you'd just gain them at every 4 levels (if you have a bonus that high).
MadBlue 03-20-05, 02:14 AM	I personally think allowing a character to start play with four feats is a bit much...(human fighter with 12 charisma)Of course the Fighter Bonus Feat is a class feature, and the Human Bonus Feat is a racial Feature. Technically, if you want to count Feats from class and racial features, a human Fighter gets something like 40 Feats at 1st level, counting each Martial Weapon Proficiency separately. :D if your going to do it at all...dont give them a feat at first...make the scale start at a higher level....Originally that was the way I was going to do it, but IMHO it works better this way. though i still dont agree with bribing characters into getting high charisma scores....And I don't agree with the initial NPC reaction mechanic you've come up with. What it comes down to is that a lot of us don't agree with "bribing" characters into getting high scores in everything else but not Charisma. Actually, if you feel that characters don't need to be bribed into having a high Charisma, why create a house rule that only rewards characters with a Charisma of 16+? Why create a house rule at all, if Charisma is "fine as is"? Fact is, players consider race, class and ability combinations when creating characters. Individual playing style and skill aside, what is on the character sheet determines what the player has to work with. A lot of times it comes down to decisions like this: "Want a lot of skill points for your Fighter? Have a high Intelligence, or take a level or two of Rogue". With Charisma granting Feats (or Action Points, or some other additional bonus), it'll get the same kind of consideration as other stats, mechanically - and that's a separate issue from whether the campaign is roleplaying intensive or hack-and-slash. Besides, I'd expect players in a roleplaying intensive campaign to use Intelligence and Wisdom as guidelines for roleplaying as well as Charisma. MadBlue
Tenzhi 03-20-05, 02:49 AM	I like it and think I'll use it as far as the positive modifiers go. I don't tend to like flaws, however (and if I did, I'd apply them all at once at 1st level - since the positive modifier extends into the future of the character, the negative modifier can extend retroactively and build up all the flaws to 1st level). I think I'd be fine with removing a character's normal feats for negative Charisma modifiers. Though I'd do it starting at 20th level and counting back. Or perhaps every -1 Charisma modifier would increase the number of levels between bonus feats by one, though that would get a little weird with ability bonuses from levels.
cambric 03-20-05, 07:46 AM	As for a fighter starting out with 4 feats, sure...the one in my party did: Congrats to him for showing initiative with his PC. Also, he's the party leader, and with his Charisma higher, it's justified. I will do the flaws, if someone puts in a negative, but didn't have to worry about it, since the lowest is now a 12. Used to be, I was fortunate to have a PC with a 12 as the highest in the group! (Unless the cleric used it, but we've never had a sorcerer or bard yet). Personally, not that it's right, not saying it, but for ME, trying to go retrospective as they level doesn't seem correct for Role Playing. Either you have the "inner strength, confidence" to learn from the start, or as you "mature" you gain it (if you raise your charisma). So I have no problem with having a fighter, human, starting out with 4 feats: More power to them! Besides, I can throw tougher creatures at them with a lot less guilt. :evillaugh I discussed this with my DM, who is very tough when it comes to extra feats and such, and he actually loved the idea. He loves ROLE playing and this would give additional reasons for players in his group to have a higher charisma, but he's waiting to see how balanced it is with my group. They will be reaching 4th level in about 2 weeks, next gaming session, and then they get another bonus feat...so I'll have a better gadge of it. Cam
Lord Welkerfan 03-20-05, 09:42 AM	The one thing that is left now, however, is that wisdom still grants only a save increase, which if the character has an 18, is a +4. If the character takes Iron Will as one of his bonus Cha feats, he gets a +3. Now, wisdom has mechanically far less to offer than any other ability. To compensate for this, I key action points (which I use in my game) to wisdom and grant wisdom mod + 1/2 character level each time a character levels. Just a thought.
HailSpork 03-20-05, 10:53 AM	Heh, it's ironic. In an attempt to make one attribute more useful, you've nerfed another. Now, you're trying to make that attribute more useful. On the same lines, with a 14 cha, you could get improved toughness and great fortitude. And con has far less class skills than wisdom.
Lord Welkerfan 03-20-05, 12:28 PM	Honestly, if you are going to post in a forum, please try to be helpful. Don't just pop in saying the other posters are dumb and then leave.
MadBlue 03-20-05, 12:50 PM	Heh, it's ironic. In an attempt to make one attribute more useful, you've nerfed another. Now, you're trying to make that attribute more useful.A bonus to Will Saves is still a bonus to Will Saves. Failing a Will Save or other attempt at controlling your character is going to pretty much take him out of the game for the duration, or worse yet, perhaps pit him against the rest of the party. Yeah, you could always take "Iron Will" as a Charisma bonus Feat, but, well, couldn't you always take that anyway? What it does is make Charisma, perhaps, marginally better than Wisdom, whereas in the past, Charisma was, IMHO, lagging way behind. People who put points into Charisma just for the Feat will still value Will Saves, and Listen and Spot. After all, why did they chose Wisdom over Charisma before? This is the "Unearthed Arcana and House Rules" board, right? It's OK to tweak the system. If boosting Charisma results in some people feeling they should do something for Wisdom too, so be it. Hell, I just might add something to Wisdom myself. If it makes the game work better for my campaigns in the long run, I'm not going to complain. I've got some time before I start up a new game, so I have time to play around with the rules. You don't like the idea of a Charisma Bonus Feats house rule, or for that matter it seems, any Charisma house rule other than reaction checks. Fine. The board is wide open. Start your own thread proposing how to do that. Because, IMHO, the reaction check house rules I've seen have been pretty uninspiring and not very thought out. So why not get together with like-minded folk and come up with a good reaction check rule that gets people to say "hey, now that is a great idea for making Charisma a more valuable stat"? For me, I think Charisma already does enough socially. I think exploring and building upon the other facets of Charisma make it a more interesting and more valuable stat. But, if you want input on making reaction checks work well, I'm happy to give my two cents (just as I have with Charisma and Action Points, even though I don't use the AP system - I chime in with helpful feedback on those threads because I'm more interested in helping people work through their ideas for their campaigns than in trying to convert people who want to do things differently to seeing things my way - Besides, I do enough of that in my threads ;)). On the same lines, with a 14 cha, you could get improved toughness and great fortitude. And con has far less class skills than wisdom.Which wouldn't be practical, since by the time you reached the point of being eligible for that second Bonus Feat (4th level), if you put that 14 into Constitution instead, you'd have the results of those two Feats, plus 5 HP. And by 20th level, you'd be absolutely kicking yourself for missing out on the extra 37 HP you could have gotten with a 14 Constitution. MadBlue
HailSpork 03-20-05, 01:40 PM	Honestly, if you are going to post in a forum, please try to be helpful. Don't just pop in saying the other posters are dumb and then leave. I don't recall saying that anybody was dumb. Also, Madblue, I said *improved* toughness. +1 hp/level. True, it does fall short of the amount you'd get for a 14 con, but it also helps a dozen other abilities. Particularly if you compare this to a character with a 14 charisma in a game without bonus feats. Even better, compare a 14 charisma and 12 con to 14 con, 12 charisma. Now, there's no hp loss at all. My point isn't that you shouldn't tweak the system, I'm pointing out that you've gotten yourself to a point where you're buffing the abilities of other attributes to "balance" charisma. After wisdom gets a boost, what next? Con?
Lord Welkerfan 03-20-05, 06:39 PM	In my opinion, we are not now buffing another ability to balance our modifications to charisma, just assigning something many of us already utilize (action points) to an ability that seems least affected.
MadBlue 03-21-05, 12:20 AM	Also, Madblue, I said *improved* toughness. +1 hp/level. True, it does fall short of the amount you'd get for a 14 con, but it also helps a dozen other abilities.Fair enough. I wrote that around three in the morning (local time) after getting home from a party. :pint: Particularly if you compare this to a character with a 14 charisma in a game without bonus feats. Even better, compare a 14 charisma and 12 con to 14 con, 12 charisma. Now, there's no hp loss at all.The way I look at it, a 12 Con and 14 Charisma vs a 14 Con and 12 Charisma are balanced. The former gets +1 Fort Save and +20 HP and two bonus Feats (for an additional +2 Fort and +20 HP). The latter gets +2 Fort and +40 HP and one bonus Feat (for either an additional +2 Fort Save or +20HP). What you've demonstrated is that two bonus Feats that you could take with a 14 Charisma (Improved Toughness and Great Fortitude) is better than what you'd get with a 12 Con, and that what you'd get with a 14 Con is better than what you'd get with one Bonus Feat (either Improved Toughness or Great Fortitude) for a 12 Charisma. True, Charisma helps with more skills, but Constitution keeps you alive to use them. Perhaps not surprisingly, keeping a character alive is the main reason people tend to boost Con to begin with. ;) My point isn't that you shouldn't tweak the system, I'm pointing out that you've gotten yourself to a point where you're buffing the abilities of other attributes to "balance" charisma. After wisdom gets a boost, what next? Con?Well, IMHO, Charisma needed a boost. And many would say, a big one. Wisdom, Intelligence and Charisma are meant to be equivalents. As it is, Intelligence is usually a better investment than Wisdom or Charisma, and Wisdom is usually a better investment than Charisma. Adding Bonus Feats brings Charisma closer to Intelligence. Wisdom could probably use a boost too - albeit a smaller one - to bring it closer to Intelligence. Wisdom could easily be boosted without boosting another stat. Some off-the-cuff ideas: Basing Initiative on Wisdom (Dex still adds to AC, Ranged "to hit" and Ref Save) Adding both Dex and Wisdom to Initiative Intuition Check based on Wisdom to "have a bad/good feeling about this" Wisdom Bonus to AP total Wisdom Bonus to AP die rolls (i.e. Wis 12 rolls 1d6+1 when spending AP) None of those things alone would require any other stat to get a boost. MadBlue
Tenzhi 03-23-05, 01:02 AM	Wisdom also covers Spot and Listen, which are important passive defense skills (and IIRC, they're the only passive skills). Making it an initiative bonus that overlaps the Dex initiative bonus might be a good idea...
Tuneless Bard 03-23-05, 09:45 AM	okay.... Hailspark really put it in perspective for me... If you have a 12 to assign....why put it in Con instead of Cha? Put your 12 in Charisma....take improved toughness(which fixes the hp problem)...and get a +1 to 10 different skills....and a bonus first level bard/sorcerer spell... why be tough when you can be beautiful and get the same benifits... only thing you lose is +1 to fort saves... and the trade off for strength now is only +1 dmg....cause the attack you can balance out with weapon focus... Also...I think its odd that you are now thinking of NON-Feat ways of helping out wisdom, but shun NON-feat ways of helping out charisma... i think the fact that everyone in your campaign has high charisma now is a hint that it is TOO powerful... not everyone in my campaign has a high strength... not everyone has a high con... not everyone has a high dex, intelligence, or wisdom... if suddenly i found that everyone had one score high with no exceptions...id be thinking there was something wrong...
MadBlue 03-23-05, 01:19 PM	okay.... only thing you lose is +1 to fort saves...And Concentration check bonus, and Constitution checks to keep running, hold your breath, and avoid non-lethal damage from a forced march, starvation and thirst. Not to mention Con damage. Most players would rather contract a poison or disease that takes their Charisma down to 0 than their Con. and the trade off for strength now is only +1 dmg....cause the attack you can balance out with weapon focus...I didn't realize Weapon Focus increased your carrying capacity, climbing, jumping, swimming and riding skills and grapple checks, or that it helped you open stuck doors. Nor for that matter, that one Feat applied to all melee weapons. Amazing the things one can learn from these boards. :P Also...I think its odd that you are now thinking of NON-Feat ways of helping out wisdom, but shun NON-feat ways of helping out charisma...I don't shun non-Feat ways of helping out Charisma. It's just that the way I came up with has to do with Feats. I've even chimed in on other threads where people have come up with other options for Charisma with ideas to help them with making their options work. What I said was that IMHO something that draws upon the non-social aspect of Charisma was better than something that further expands the social aspect, because the social aspect is already well covered by the rules. Besides, what does any of that have to do with my ideas for helping out Wisdom? i think the fact that everyone in your campaign has high charisma now is a hint that it is TOO powerful...You're confusing me with cambric. Although, I think it has as much to do with everyone wanting to try out "the new thing" as anything else. Besides, I don't know how cambric's group creates characters, but with the chargen system I use, it's possible to have a low score of 8, but it's also possible to have a low score of 12, depending on how you allot your points. My system allows players to create characters where no ability has to have a penalty if they don't want them to. For example, in my system someone could create a Fighter with Str 18 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 8. But they could just as easily create a Fighter with Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 12. If they're creating characters who have no ability penalties, perhaps it means that they value what each ability has to offer and aren't treating any of them as a dump stat. MadBlue
ThexGodfather 03-23-05, 11:23 PM	Every character class has a dump-stat. That's basic DnD. Wizards dump Str. Rogues dump the start linked to the skills they use least. I have a Halfling rogue sniper in my game right now with an 8 Str who is giving me headaches. Clerics dump Dex. Doesn't do them much good in heavy armor. Barbarians dump Int. Not like they use most of those class skills anyway. Bards are the only class that doesn't really have one for sure, but they get to specialize their character to fit in the gaps of the rest of the party. I don't know why a character who is the 2nd best at everything is underpowered in some peoples' books. Fighters dump Str, Int, sometimes Dex, yadda yadda. My point is that every class has some stat they don't use. I don't see Cha as the universal dumping stat. Somebody in the party needs to do the talking, haggling, persuading. Every group needs a healer and a turner of undead. Hello Cleric. A rogue with a low Charisma? Better not plan on conning anyone, talking your way past any guards or anything like that. A wizard with low Cha? Not much use having enchantments or using the Planar Binding spells. Giving Cha bonus feats will just make the problem you claim you are trying to fix worse. Here are my picks for my new bonus feats with my high Cha character. Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Relflexes, Improved Initiative, Open Minded, Improved Toughness. See the problem yet? I just decimated the advantages the other stats have. Sorcerers don't get bonus feats for a reason. If you never had to memorize spells and got the bonus feats a wizard does, then you wouldn't play a wizard. You would play a Sorcerer who buys certain scrolls in large amounts from NPC wizards. A Paladin with bonus feats? Paladin gets: mount, spells, immunity to disease, nice save bonuses. Fighter gets.... bonus feats. I wouldn't play a fighter anymore, and I was in a party with a Paladin after somebody applied this rule, I'd be ******. A Bard with bonus feats? Well now he has more class skills than the Rogue, more skill points to buy them with, one more good save, and with those bonus feats, I'd choose to live without sneak attack. If Cha gives bonus feats, I'm not playing Human any more. If in your games even fighters dumped Str, then you made some kind of wierd campaign where they never had melee combat or had to break something physically. If in your games everybody dumps Cha then you are running some kind of wierd campaign where they don't need to interact with anyone. Before you make such a drastic change to the system and potentially unbalance every class, race, and feat choice, maybe you should examine what goes on in your game. If players want more power and don't want to roleplay, give them a quicker feat progession. Or just let them Gestalt. OR you could consider actually applying numerical penalties to people that attempt to socialize when they aren't good at it. Just like a wizard swinging a sword with a 6 Str. Try that first.
MadBlue 03-24-05, 03:41 AM	My point is that every class has some stat they don't use.Actually, going by the "Abilities" section for each class, every class has a few stats that aren't as important as others. Of course, what is considered important to the character varies by player. Giving Cha bonus feats will just make the problem you claim you are trying to fix worse. Here are my picks for my new bonus feats with my high Cha character. Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Relflexes, Improved Initiative, Open Minded, Improved Toughness. See the problem yet? I just decimated the advantages the other stats have.Well, you presented your Bonus Feat choices over the course of 20 levels for a hypothetical character with a 22 Charisma and a 10 in every other ability score. And even then, Wow. You'd have to spend all of your six Bonus Feats to get a +2 to Saves, +4 to Initiative, 5 extra skill points and +20 HP, and you're claiming that would make Charisma an "Uber-Stat"? Sorcerers don't get bonus feats for a reason. If you never had to memorize spells and got the bonus feats a wizard does, then you wouldn't play a wizard. You would play a Sorcerer who buys certain scrolls in large amounts from NPC wizards.That's one way to look at it. I'm one of the people who thinks Sorcerers can use a boost. Granting Bonus Feats is one of the ways alt.Sorcerers tend to get boosted. Works for me. A Paladin with bonus feats? Paladin gets: mount, spells, immunity to disease, nice save bonuses.So now a Paladin doesn't have to choose between Mounted Combat Feats in order to better utilize his Mount or improving himself in other areas. Again. Works for me. Fighter gets.... bonus feats. I wouldn't play a fighter anymore, and I was in a party with a Paladin after somebody applied this rule, I'd be ******. Fighters with a higher Charisma get more Bonus Feats. It's not like a Fighter has to put Charisma last. Besides, every ability grants some bonus that you can also get by taking a certain class as well. Which is something I already pointed out in an earlier post. A Bard with bonus feats? Well now he has more class skills than the Rogue, more skill points to buy them with, one more good save, and with those bonus feats, I'd choose to live without sneak attack.Well, a Bard gets more class skills than a Rogue as it is. Open Minded would give him 5 more skill points to spend. A Rogue gets 32 skill points at 1st level. A Bard gets 24. 29 if you take Open Minded. So, no. Not more skill points. Also a +2 to a Save doesn't turn a Bad Save into a Good one. It just adds a +2. Yeah, at 1st level it looks like a "Good Save" but...wait a minute... are you assuming you'd get all the Bonus Feats at 1st level? That's not the way it works. If Cha gives bonus feats, I'm not playing Human any more. Your prerogative. If in your games even fighters dumped Str, then you made some kind of wierd campaign where they never had melee combat or had to break something physically.It was an example. Not a character in play. You'll notice the character also had a 12 in Intelligence and Wisdom too. I could have showed Str 18 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 10 Charisma 12, but then you would have said "SEE, SEE, He's boosting his Charisma instead of his Intelligence or Wisdom. Therefore Charisma has become better than Intelligence and Wisdom". All I wanted to show is that IMC it's possible to create a character that gets a bonus for everything, so "having the lowest Charisma in the party being 12" doesn't mean that anything has to be getting dumped. If in your games everybody dumps Cha then you are running some kind of wierd campaign where they don't need to interact with anyone.Note in UA p91 under "Behind the Curtain: Creating Flaws": "Similarly, a flaw that penalizes a character's Charisma-based skill checks only has a significant impact on the party spokesperson - the quiet fighter or barbarian likely won't feel any impact from the penalties". Hey, don't look at me. I didn't say it. Personally, I think a Flaw that penalizes Charisma-based checks is fair game. In any case, I never said I came up with the Feats idea because everybody dumped Charisma in my game. Even the Dwarf character had a Charisma of 10. which means he put a 12 into it before the racial modifier. And this was before I came up with the idea of Bonus Feats. I could cut and paste to explain why I came up with what I did again (again), but c'mon, this thread isn't that long. Before you make such a drastic change to the system and potentially unbalance every class, race, and feat choice,Captain Hyperbole, AWAY! :rolleyes: maybe you should examine what goes on in your game. If players want more power and don't want to roleplay, give them a quicker feat progession. Or just let them Gestalt.There's nothing wrong with what goes on in my games or with the roleplaying abilities of my players. Thank you very much. OR you could consider actually applying numerical penalties to people that attempt to socialize when they aren't good at it. Just like a wizard swinging a sword with a 6 Str. Try that first.Do you know how insulting that is? I mean, even in the post you responded to I mentioned that the social aspect of Charisma is well covered by the rules. Now, what could I have possibly meant by that. Maybe that I already apply "numerical penalties to people that attempt to socialize when they aren't good at it"? You think? :nonono: MadBlue Whew. That pushed a lot of buttons with me. :twitch:
HailSpork 03-24-05, 09:07 AM	That was a great post, Thex. Nicely put. The fact is, while a fighter doesn't have to put his charisma last, most paladins put their charisma first or second. Paladins already get a lot of abilities from charisma, and having a high charisma only gives them more power. Same with a sorcerer compared to a wizard. Or the bard compared to the rogue. As for the 6 feats you mentioned, they're good for a comparison in balance, but I would probably diversify more. Particularly with the spacing of the feats. Now, the human thing. In a normal game, a human non-fighter gets twice the starting feats as a non-human, non-fighter. With MadBlue's version, he only gets 50% more feats (you did say everybody in your campaign had a charisma of 12+, right?) For a fighter, the human in MadBlue's version only gets 33% more starting feats. *That's* why the bonus feats for charisma nerfs humans and fighters. So, MadBlue, what classes are in the campaign you're running?
MadBlue 03-24-05, 12:53 PM	That was a great post, Thex. Nicely put. The fact is, while a fighter doesn't have to put his charisma last, most paladins put their charisma first or second. Paladins already get a lot of abilities from charisma, and having a high charisma only gives them more power. Same with a sorcerer compared to a wizard. Or the bard compared to the rogue.And I disagree that that's a problem. Otherwise I wouldn't have come up with the idea in the first place. As for the 6 feats you mentioned, they're good for a comparison in balance, but I would probably diversify more. Particularly with the spacing of the feats.I didn't think the example showed that what you'd get from a 22 Charisma would be better than the 120 HP and +6 Fort Save you'd get from a 22 Constitution over the same 20 levels, or the 110 Skill Points you'd get from a 22 intelligence over the same 20 levels (starting at 18, that is, and boosting every 4 levels, since skill points aren't retroactive, well, not in standard games, anyway ;)). Now, the human thing. In a normal game, a human non-fighter gets twice the starting feats as a non-human, non-fighter. With MadBlue's version, he only gets 50% more feats (you did say everybody in your campaign had a charisma of 12+, right?)No (again). That was cambric. I said that none of my characters ever had a Charisma score lower than 12 (not using the Bonus Feats). For a fighter, the human in MadBlue's version only gets 33% more starting feats. *That's* why the bonus feats for charisma nerfs humans and fighters.We'll have to agree to disagree. I think that anyone who plays a Human or a Fighter "just for more Feats" is going to play a Human or a Fighter "just for more Feats" anyway. Especially with all the sourcebooks out there chock full of Feats. So, MadBlue, what classes are in the campaign you're running?<sigh> You guys are making me repeat myself too many times for a thread that's only 3 pages long. I'm not running a campaign now, since I just moved, and I haven't used the Bonus Feats house rule yet. I'm going to use it (and a number of other new house rules) in my next campaign. I do expect that more characters will have a Charisma of 12+ in my new campaign. In that regard, though, it'll be no different from other stats. With my chargen method, one could create a character with all 13s if they wanted to (13 being the average score). MadBlue
Tuneless Bard 03-24-05, 02:01 PM	And here is another angle.... All races that give +2 charisma also....cause of cercumstances....grant a bonus feat...and those with -2 charisma keep you from getting a feat... Aasimars now get a bonus feat... Bariaur's keep you from getting a bonus feat... Buomman's keep you from getting a bonus feat... Fey Touched get a bonus feat... Chaos Gnomes get a bonus feat... Whisper Gnomes keep you from getting a bonus feat... Goblin's keep you from getting a bonus feat... Half-Orcs keep you from getting a bonus feat... Poison Dusk lizard folk keep you from getting a bonus feat... Mechanatrix keep you from getting a bonus feat... Mephlings get bonus feats... except an earth mephling though....they take one away from you... seems fair... Mongrelmen lose two feats....how nice...i'll play one of those... Orcs lose a feat... Sharakim's lose a feat... Shifter's lose a feat... and lastly...Tieflings lose a feat.... OH THIS ONE IS NICE...an aasimar and tiefling...both supposed to be equal in power....but a 12 in charisma gives the tiefling no bonus feats(10 cha) but the aasimar two(14 cha)....hmmmm....seems like the power divide has grown sufficiently.... additionally....Wildren, Warforged, and Warforged Scouts also lose the benifits of a bonus feat... a human fighter who puts a twelve in charisma gets 4 feats... an orc fighter who puts a twelve in charisma gets 2 feats... A 4th level Aasimar fighter (ECL +1) puts a twelve in charisma and gets 6 feats... A 4th level Forestkin Goblin fighter (ECL +1) who puts a rolled twelve in charisma gets 5 feats... A 4th level Tiefling fighter (ECL +1) puts a twelve in charisma and gets 4 feats... well...lets look at the sharakim (ECL +1) then....+2 Str and +2 Int should make a pretty combat saavy fighter... oh....no....sorry...they get a -2 charisma....thats 4 feats....not 6.... I see....the cuter the race...the more Bad _ _ _ it is....makes sense... Afterthought: Not to mention the effects a charisma boosting race has against characters whose charisma is allready high... for example.... a +2 strength has the same effect...no matter how strong you are... a +2 intelligence has the same effect...no matter how smart you are.... a +2 charisma is suddenly AWESOME if you have a low / non - existant charisma score....and not as awesome if your charisma is allready high... for example... a Cha 10 character who becomes an aasimar gets a bonus feat at character creation... a Cha 18 character who becomes an aasimar doesnt get the boost until...what....16th level? After After thought: What about the cloak of charisma? does the +2 charisma give you a bonus feat on the spot? +4 give you 2 feats? at ninth level you say..."Bugga, i cant believe i didnt take the feats i needed to be a dervish...no problem...throw some money at it and i can buy my way in....chaching....combat expertise, dodge, and mobility coming right up..."
Kintara 03-24-05, 04:11 PM	It's been mentioned that equipment shouldn't add bonus feats. I don't think anyone argues that. The losing feats for low Charisma is an option that doesn't need to be used. I probably wouldn't do it. But, yeah, if you put points into Charisma, you won't get as many feats as you might normally.
Tuneless Bard 03-24-05, 04:40 PM	its not a matter of "losing feats" for a racial charisma modifier... what im talking about is a natural 12 becoming a 10....there-by getting rid of a feat you would have ordinarily gotten... also...as for equipment....if cloak of charisma doesnt give you bonus feats doesnt that make it "less effective" than all of that other stat boosters (according to you guys).... so why pay the same amount for something you think doesnt do as much?
Kintara 03-24-05, 06:20 PM	its not a matter of "losing feats" for a racial charisma modifier... what im talking about is a natural 12 becoming a 10....there-by getting rid of a feat you would have ordinarily gotten... also...as for equipment....if cloak of charisma doesnt give you bonus feats doesnt that make it "less effective" than all of that other stat boosters (according to you guys).... so why pay the same amount for something you think doesnt do as much?You don't get skill points from Int boosters, either. It's the same thing, really. And yes, I got your point, and edited in that last sentence to acknowledge it.
ThexGodfather 03-24-05, 08:07 PM	I'm going to go out on a limb here. The status of Cha as it applies to the game hasn't changed much in any edition, has it? Do you think that all the people who designed the game didn't consider the situation with Cha? Even if there weren't feats in 2.0, Cha's role was basically the same. In all the editions I have played (2.0, 3.0, 2.5) I haven't seen any significant shift in that role. Nor have I seen any kind of suggested modification published by WotC, even in UA, which we all know was chock full of variants that did wierd things. I've never read an article or interview with any current or former designer who said they thought Cha needed a boost. I also own and browse a lot of 3rd party stuff and I've never seen them apply a variant rule to increase Cha's role. I'm not saying any group should just merrily follow in WotC's foot steps, or any other designer, believe me. I have a list of the house rules my group uses on my computer, because we tend to forget some of them otherwise. But, when you look at the resounding silence of so fundamental a game mechanic over the 30 some odd years DnD has been around, do you not think maybe Cha could be fine how it is? I'm not interested in seeing 2,000 samples of OGL or D20 stuff that changes Cha, or in debating the effectiveness of the designers of the game. If you tell me you have/ have seen examples of it, I'll take you on faith. We play the game they made, which at least to some extent gives them credit. The main reason I say this is I don't want this to devolve into another bash the designers and other publishers party. I may change things here and there, but ultimately I rely on them for my game experience, rather than making my own system from scratch. As for the UA example with Flaws, the same could be said of letting a Wizard take a hit to Str. Everyone has a stat they would gladly take a hit to to garner another feat, at least in terms of power. All of a sudden, a negative Cha means a lot more to EVERYONE than any other given stat does. The wizard can get along without a good Str score. Everyone takes a power hit, and a big one, from Cha under this variant. And yes, Paladins do have to choose between improving their mount and themselves. There's a reason for that. They have a lot of potent abilities, Every character has to make choices about what they use their feats for. A barbarian has to choose whether to focus on augmenting his rage, increasing mobility, or damage dealing. For a cleric, he has to balance turning power, fighting ability, spellcasting, and item creation. That's a big boat to fill, and with good reason. Characters shouldn't be able to do everything. A Paladin with bonus feats really starts to hem in the fighter, who is supposed to be the best outright combat character. My example of those feats did not assume getting them all at 1st level, nor did it assume a given character would get all of them. The point I was making is you say Cha is a bad stat, or it's underpowered, or whatever. By doing this with Cha you reduce the impact of the others. You create 5 small problems(just counting the stats) by fixing what you percieve to be one big problem. No, a +2 to Ref saves does not a good save make. But, If a Sorcerer doesn't have a great Dex, that +2, especially at low levels, pretty much negates that disadvantage of the character type. Other classes shouldn't have their shticks horned in on by characters that depend on Cha. I agree that with regards to Leadership perhaps there should be a Cha requirement. If everyone takes it, a high Cha character doesn't get much tangible advantage, his cohort is still stuck with everyone else's. That might be in order. Cha itself isn't worthless. A Sorcerer with high Cha doesn't get a save bonus or an AC bonus, but he is pretty high up there for party talking head. That involves face time; it makes him an important part of the group. Arguably more so in a group where everyone else put their low score in Cha. He certainly can do just as much good with a few minor enchantments as a fighter can with a high Str and a good weapon. Everyone has a role in combat, especially the Sorcerer, but the Fighter gets to sit there and wait while the Sorcerer sweet-talks the barmaid into telling them what she heard from the cloaked patron in the corner. In any game that has a large portion of combat, people are going to make characters that rely on combat at the expense of social skills. By giving social character generic bonus feats, they gain the ability to still be the best one in the social arena, and be closer to martial characters in power. Also consider the effect of this on monsters. Raise all the dragons by at least a CR, if not more. If you take away feats for low Cha, you really nerf Ogres, Orcs, etc. Heck, at any level, anything with a low Cha is going to be easier, while having enough room for things like quicken breath weapon will do alot to skew the system. If you don't take a very loooong time to carefully consider what this does to every monster you use, and adjust CR's accordingly, then Players will know killing low Cha monsters with high CR's is easier. They will start hunting them and avoiding other ones. Look, if ANY stat is a little underpowered, I'd agree it's Cha. I have occasionally considered doing something to make it more appealing. But bonus feats are a major power boost. Adding them would just make a new problem. If your problem is with sorcerers and bards being underpowered, perhaps a more appropriate solution would be to increase their ability. I don't think they need it personally, but I can see that as much more reasonable than giving bonus feats for Cha. For me, the point of the game is to have fun and to create a believable game world. I don't see how someone's ability to lead and physical attractiveness translates into the ability to acquire more special talents like feats. A bookish, withdrawn wizard is less likely to have craft wonderous item than an out-going one? That just doesn't work for me. the only stats I can see granting bonus feats would be Int and Wis. Now, they already have enough going for them, so I wouldn't do it. My group tried tying Sorcerers to Con instead of Cha because it felt more believable. It would also give them a slight edge as compared to the wizard, but it was worth a try. What it did was make Sorcerers much more powerful than other spellcasters because their highest stat also applied to a bad save and hit points. I can only imagine what giving the Sorcerer these bonus feats would do. In terms of game balance, increased DM load, and believability I just can't see this working out. Remember, in essence you are penalizing all characters types that don't rely on Cha, and giving all the ones that do a significant power boost.
ThexGodfather 03-24-05, 08:25 PM	Don't tell people not to post on a thread because they disagree with you. The point of this board is "feedback." If you want constant agreement and support, get a dog. If you want people to actually give you feedback, then post on this board. Yes, this area is about rules variants, that doesn't mean it's about discussing just why they are good. And everyone quit with the personal stuff, If anyone took anything I said personally, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to insult anyone. I'm here to get ideas for rules variants. Is anyone here to name-call?
MadBlue 03-24-05, 11:23 PM	And here is another angle.... All races that give +2 charisma also....cause of cercumstances....grant a bonus feat...and those with -2 charisma keep you from getting a feat...I know. The only one that I'm really concerned about it the Half-Orc (and I've already taken care of that one with house rules, not like nobody else has). Dwarves are fine as is, as they're somewhat on the powerful end of the scale as far as PHB races are concerned. The others I'll look at on a case-by-case basis. If anyone wants to play a "Poison Dusk Lizard Folk" and feels they're inordinately penalized by the Charisma hit, I'll buy the book that has them in it and make a decision then. OH THIS ONE IS NICE...an aasimar and tiefling...both supposed to be equal in power....but a 12 in charisma gives the tiefling no bonus feats(10 cha) but the aasimar two(14 cha)....hmmmm....seems like the power divide has grown sufficiently....In the case of the Tiefling, I'd probably just drop the Charisma penalty. IIRC, Tieflings got a Charisma bonus in earlier editions, and the Charisma hit didn't go well with Tiefling fans. I don't think it's a problem for Goblins and Orcs, and most NPC races, as they're not necessarily built to be balanced with PC races. I don't run Eberron, but if Shifters and Warforged seem to be unfairly hit, I'd probably give them a bonus Shifter or Warforged Feat. Again, I'd have to look at the game book. I see....the cuter the race...the more Bad _ _ _ it is....makes sense...Not that "being cute" is what Charisma is all about. Look at the pictures of the Half-Dragon and Half-Fiend on p147 of the MM. Nothing cute going on there. What about the cloak of charisma? does the +2 charisma give you a bonus feat on the spot? +4 give you 2 feats?Kintara covered that. MadBlue
MadBlue 03-24-05, 11:32 PM	Don't tell people not to post on a thread because they disagree with you. The point of this board is "feedback." If you want constant agreement and support, get a dog. If you want people to actually give you feedback, then post on this board. Yes, this area is about rules variants, that doesn't mean it's about discussing just why they are good. And everyone quit with the personal stuff, If anyone took anything I said personally, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to insult anyone. I'm here to get ideas for rules variants. Is anyone here to name-call?You made some good points in Post #80 (I'll respond later because I'm running low on time and have another thread topic up my sleeve). I have nothing against people posting because they disagree. I love a good debate. It's the tone of some of the posts. Particularly ones implying that I've come up with this idea because I'm not a good DM or that my players don't like to roleplay. No problem, though. It's water under the bridge. :D MadBlue
Tuneless Bard 03-25-05, 12:35 AM	I'm glad you've thought about the races....but one note: Case by case basis ALLWAYS causes problems... The aasimar is upset because the orc still gets a bonus feat for placing the 12 in charisma (leaving a 10)...or the orc is upset because you cut a break for the tiefling two campaigns ago and wont cut him a break... when you make exceptions to a rule that up to this point you've seemed det set for....then all heck breaks loose... I can tell you this...taking racial modifiers into account DOESNT WORK with your current set up... a chaos gnome should not be a better tactical fighter than the methodic minded mechanatrix...so dont do a case by case..... perhaps you can try basing it off the charisma score before racial modifiers...but that again would be putting in a different catagory from all the other stats because that isnt done with any other stat... Ugh....i just cant do it...it just doesnt make sense....how charismatic a race is has no bearing on how well they fight, maneauver, and cast wizard spells... please....at least limit the feats you can take....maybe weapon finesse....or Goad....skill focus charisma skill...adept learner...sorcerer metamagic....divine feats... I can live with that....just limit what feats you can take so that they make sense....no iron will....no improved toughness....no weapon focus....no two weapon fighting....no dodge....no combat expertise... *sigh of releaf* there....seems okay to me...I've reached my middle ground....meet me here or not....but i am fully satisfied...
Tenzhi 03-25-05, 12:58 AM	Ugh....i just cant do it...it just doesnt make sense....how charismatic a race is has no bearing on how well they fight, maneauver, and cast wizard spells... You're thinking of it in too inane a manner. Charisma in this variant doesn't directly make a character better at fighting, manuevering, etc. What it does is increase their innate potential. Perhaps having a higher Charisma garners them more attention from Fate/the Gods/the Cosmos, increasing their potential to take action for good or ill.
HailSpork 03-25-05, 01:16 AM	Perhaps having a higher Charisma garners them more attention from Fate/the Gods/the Cosmos, increasing their potential to take action for good or ill. Why? Having a higher wisdom garners more attention from their god *if* they're a cleric. I like a lot of the points Thex made, including the one about people disagreeing with you. (btw, I never implied that anybody was a bad GM, just that good gm'ing *can* make charisma fine as is) Anyway, MadBlue, I had you confused with Cambric. So, Cambric, what classes are in your campaign with this rule? So, do undead and oozes and such get flaws? Do devils and dragons get feats?
Tenzhi 03-25-05, 01:41 AM	Why? Because Charisma is presence. The higher it is, the more the Universe takes notice. Having a higher wisdom garners more attention from their god *if* they're a cleric. I'd be more inclined to say that having a better Wisdom allows them to *communicate* better with their god if they're a cleric.
Kintara 03-25-05, 01:45 AM	I've always considered Charisma to be a stat that seems to imply something going on under the surface that isn't quite entirely explained. All of the other stats are pretty straightforward, but Charisma is that je ne sais quoi ability. In fact, I can see Charisma as being tied to magic. The Force is with them, so to speak. Think about it, beauty isn't necessarily tied to Charisma. You can make a character physically beautiful, but not give them a particularly high Charisma stat. Green Hags and Medusae have good Charisma despite their hideousness. But it does seem like Charisma can be a quality associated with beauty. A beautiful person with high Charisma is gifted with that special something that gives them a certain influence that others don't have. They shine brighter. Or maybe they are dark and terrible, like in the case of a medusa or ancient black dragon. But then, maybe the high Charisma character is that innkeeper that everyone goes to to unwind and get their problems off their chests. And then there's the obvious argument for Charisma being something magical, the Sorcerer. Plus, spell-like abilities are also tied to it with monsters. Hey, here's an idea, what if we had Charisma influence saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities? It would require tweaking spell DCs, or something, though. And Divine Grace would probably need to change. Eh, anyway, I'm just musing at this point. Edit: Another thing to tie to Charisma would be a luck mechanic of some sort. Action Points have been suggested. I have to admit that that option has a lot of appeal to me.
MadBlue 03-25-05, 05:12 AM	I'm glad you've thought about the races....but one note: Case by case basis ALLWAYS causes problems... The aasimar is upset because the orc still gets a bonus feat for placing the 12 in charisma (leaving a 10)...or the orc is upset because you cut a break for the tiefling two campaigns ago and wont cut him a break... when you make exceptions to a rule that up to this point you've seemed det set for....then all heck breaks loose...I understand what you're saying, and if I was planning on running a "Monster Squad" style game, I'd probably have put more thought into how a bonus Feat would affect non-standard races. Whether that would have changed my idea or not, I don't know. Maybe I'd just wind up doing what I said I'd so in my last post if someone wanted to play a non-standard race, look the race over individually and decide whether or not it would be unbalanced as a PC race. I can tell you this...taking racial modifiers into account DOESNT WORK with your current set up... a chaos gnome should not be a better tactical fighter than the methodic minded mechanatrix...so dont do a case by case.....Then again, should they be better at Diplomacy, Disguise and Gather Information by default? If you're going to base it on the choice of Feats one might take, a Grey Elf should not be better at Tumble, Hide and Spot than a High Elf, yet the Grey Elf gets a +2 to Intelligence, and can place the extra skill points into non-Intelligence related skills. please....at least limit the feats you can take....maybe weapon finesse....or Goad....skill focus charisma skill...adept learner...sorcerer metamagic....divine feats... I can live with that....just limit what feats you can take so that they make sense....no iron will....no improved toughness....no weapon focus....no two weapon fighting....no dodge....no combat expertise...I don't think limiting the Feats to something that seems innate and part of one's personality would be unreasonable, but in that case, the Feats that I'd limit it to would at least include: Any of the Feats that add a +2 to two skills Extra Turning Improved Initiative Iron Will Natural Spell Skill Focus Ascetic X Combat Intuition Danger Sense Devoted X Extra Music Extraordinary Concentration Force of Personality Insightful Reflexes Jack of All Trades Natural Bond Open Minded Quick Reconnoiter Versatile Performer Bardic Music Feats Wild Feats Extend Rage Extra Rage Extra Smiting Eyes In The Back Of Your Head Instantaneous Rage Intimidating Rage Divine Feats Draconic Feats Any of the Feats that grant innate spellcasting Practiced Spellcaster That's just from the PHB and Complete X series. There are probably some there that you wouldn't agree with, but I'd be fine with that list. So, do undead and oozes and such get flaws? Do devils and dragons get feats?Creatures above animal Intelligence would be subject to Feats/Flaws. So Zombies and Oozes and animals wouldn't be subject to Flaws. As for other creatures with a low Charisma and an Intelligence higher than 2, there are tons of Flaws to pick from outside UA that would be appropriate for creatures. Yeah, it would mean that most Outsiders and Dragons would get Bonus Feats, though. But many of the Feats that, say, Devils and Dragons, get pretty much define their abilities and there's not a whole lot of room for customization. Dragons wouldn't have to give up Multiattack, Hover or Wingover to be more customized. Of course the CR would increase for some of them as well, but that's not so difficult to handle with Savage Species and the DMG on my bookshelf. Also, I wasn't talking about you (regarding my DMing style or players). Something Thex said kind of rubbed me the wrong way at the time, but it's no problem. I think my sarcasm detector was broken. :) MadBlue
Tuneless Bard 03-25-05, 08:31 AM	I dont think I agree with Iron Will... And concider adding Spell Focus(Enchantment)...and Leadership (for those with 16 charisma)...and improved turning (seeing as how you have extra turning)... but I think the list would work rather well...enough of a boost to make things interesting...but not too much for those who get enough combat abilities as is... You'll also see certine feats selected more often when they wouldnt ordinarily...the skill boosters for example...and the devoted and ascetic feats...which is a good thing.... You've earned my stamp of approval... :surrender
MadBlue 03-26-05, 03:30 AM	I dont think I agree with Iron Will... And concider adding Spell Focus(Enchantment)...and Leadership (for those with 16 charisma)...and improved turning (seeing as how you have extra turning)...I just went through the books and came up with the list on the fly. Leadership and Improved Turning probably should be on the list, too. The reason I went with Iron Will is that you could have someone who is not very perceptive, but very headstrong as a personality trait. Also, there's a Flaw called Weak-Willed (-3 to Will Saves) that I could see someone taking as a Charisma Flaw for low Charisma, they might be wise, but they're not very brave. With Spell Focus it depends on whether it's a knack or talent or something learned. If it comes from a knack or innate talent, they should probably all be on there. Same with Metamagic Feats. But I thought I'd err on the side of being a bit more conservative. but I think the list would work rather well...enough of a boost to make things interesting...but not too much for those who get enough combat abilities as is...You've got a good point there. Players who want to load up on combat-based Feats will still look to the Fighter class for answers. You'll also see certine feats selected more often when they wouldnt ordinarily...the skill boosters for example...and the devoted and ascetic feats...which is a good thing....Yeah. I think so too. Also, I thought of them as ones that reflected a character's personality, going beyond one's training and whatnot. :) You've earned my stamp of approval... :surrender:surrender? Nah! More like :ayyyy!:. You made a successful Diplomacy check. MadBlue
Tuneless Bard 03-26-05, 10:26 AM	I would think of SF(enchantment) as being one because your more likely to be succeptable to most charm effects if they are actually charming.... but if it comes down to all or none for the spell focus...i deffinatly would vote for not including any of the spell focuses... Also...concider the following feats: From RoD: City Slicker Heroic Destiny Protected Destiny Fearless Destiny Inside Connection Manacing Demeanor Resourceful Buyer all the Initiate Feats From RoS: Goad Reckless Rage Steady Concentration Ancestral Knowledge Auspiscious Markings all the markings feats Battle Hardened Burrow Friend Clan Prestige Extra Silence Moradin's Smile Natural Trickster from the Planar Handbook: Acheron Flurry Celestial Summoning Specialist Fiendish Summong Specialist Personal Touchstone Planar Familiar Planar Touchstone Stalwart Planar Ally all of the Planar Heratige feats from MHB: Battlefield Inspiration Daunting Presence Distracting Attack from FB: Chosen of Iborighu Faith in the Frost Frozen Berserker Frozen Wild Shape Ice Harmonics Mark of Hleid Snowflake Wardance Winter's Champion Winter's Mount some suggestions anyway...though this is making the list a little long... just a thought...
MadBlue 03-26-05, 10:55 AM	I would think of SF(enchantment) as being one because your more likely to be succeptable to most charm effects if they are actually charming.... but if it comes down to all or none for the spell focus...i deffinatly would vote for not including any of the spell focuses... Also...concider the following feats:I'll definitely take a look at them. Thanks. :) MadBlue