Boosting usefulness of Heal skill [Archive] - Wizards Community

Boosting usefulness of Heal skill [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
radu the wanderer
05-04-04, 04:13 PM Here's an idea I have used in previous games to boost the viability of the Heal skill, something I think is badly needed. As is, there is very little reason to take very many ranks in this skill, whereas every other skill has a great incentive, even the somewhat "marginal" skills like Forgery and Appraise.

Heal is now THE cornerstone of any herbalism, healing, and surgery knowlege. The Profession (Herbalist) and Craft (Poison) skills are scrapped in this variant, being folded into Heal. Heal also is necessary for any magical healing, as explained below.

Heal as a factor in curative spells:

I have always thought that curative magic should be more effective for someone who knows how to treat injuries in a mundane manner--- after all, knowing exactly what needs to be treated, which wounds are more critical, how to assess the situation, etc, should let you channel the healing energy exactly where it is most needed. To include this, I set the HP cap on any curative spell to be = to the caster's Heal check. An example is below:

Hrothgar, a mighty berserker (Barbarian 10) a nasty blow-- he is now at -3 HP. Fennald the combat medic is too far away to aid him, but Teliel, a mighty champion of light (Paladin 12), quickly cuts his way to him across the battlefield. Teliel is not as focused on healing as Fennald, having a total skill check of +6-- hopefully it's enough. Teliel prays to Heironious and casts Cure Moderate Wounds. Rolling the dice, he gets a 5 and a 7. Normally this would cure 18 HP (with Teliel's caster level of 6), but Teliel botches his Heal check with a 2... only 8 HP are restored. It's enough to get Hrothgar on his feet again. Teliel stands his ground to cover Hrothgar's retreat back to Fennald, the combat medic.

Hrothgar is badly wounded on the field, down to 5 HP. His companion Fennald rushes to his aid, invoking a prayer to the spirits. Fennald's player casts Cure Critical Wounds and makes a Heal check. Fennald, being a 9th level Cleric, has a Heal modifier of +20 (Fennald is a dedicated combat medic). Fennald's player rolls and gets a 17-- an amazing roll! His total is 37. This is the maximum amount of HP Fennald can cure with this spell. Now Fennald rolls for curing: 1, 3, 8, 6-- not too bad, but could be alot better. Fennald cures a total of 27 HP. If he had rolled better, say 6, 7, 8, 8, he could still only cure 37 HP, even though his caster level is 9.

What do you guys think?

Maxing, at 20th level, you'd have a +23 Heal check plus Wisdom... it's not unreasonable to assume you'd have at least a +5 by this point, and probably closer to a +10 Wisdom modifier.... add in a masterwork Healer's Kit, Skill Focus: Heal, and Self-Sufficient and your base goes to +30 even without a Wis mod added in.... you could get it up to +40 or so with a few spells and a bit of thought, meaning the Heal check as max HP restored is rather meaningless--- how often do you need to cure 50 hp with a "cure" spell?

This may not work exactly as I planned, but with a bit of tweaking I think it could do a pretty good job of bumping Heal's usefulness up.
Necron013
05-04-04, 09:01 PM I think that this variant make divine spellcasters weaker rather than improving Heal.

However, Perhaps give a +1 to the amount Healed by a spell for every 10 points made on a Heal check, to a limit of the amount provided by the spell alone (so Cure Minor Wounds heals 1 hp, or 2 if you make a DC10 Heal check).

Another possibility is to allow the regaining of a Healing spell on a successful Heal check at DC 20+twice the spell's level, made at the time of casting.
TwinBahamut
05-04-04, 10:06 PM Adding the functionality of the Treat Injury Skill from d20 Modern to the D&D heal skill is a good way to increase its power. It is still much weaker than magical healing, but can actually heal a lot of hit points at once.

Altering magical healing to take into account the Heal Skill is also a good and logical idea, but I think your idea simply reduces the effectiveness of healing and adds too many dice rolls.

Maybe a different option would be to create a new line of healing spells in addition to the Cure Wounds set. Something like:

Mystic Surgery
Conjuration, Healing
Level: ?????
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Touch
Target: Creature Touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The caster channels forth healing energies in a highly controlled manner, guiding them with surgical skill. The caster makes a Heal check, and restores a number of hit points to the target equal to the result. The caster can take 10 on this check, but can not take 20.

Greater Mystic Surgery
Conjuration, Healing
Level: ?????
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Touch
Target: Creature Touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The caster channels forth potent healing energies in a highly controlled manner, guiding them with surgical skill. The caster makes a Heal check, and restores a number of the target's hit points equal to the result multiplied by 2. The caster can take 10 on this check, but can not take 20.

Not sure what level to assign to these spells though...
Aurotuli
05-04-04, 10:20 PM Do not allow the cure spell to be retained. Remember, already clerics can choose not to learn any curative magic since their spells can be auto-converted into it. I can just imagine a cleric changing a bestow curse into a Cure spell, then rolling well and not losing the 'cure' spell.

The first idea is good, but it empowers Heal at the expense of clerical curing. Not a problem IMCW, since I replaced spontaneous curing with Lay on Hands (so their Cha is used for more than turning and diplomacy). Every use of Lay on Hands, IMCW, gains a synergy bonus from Heal ranks. Of course, I treat synergy different also: +1 / 5 ranks (thus 5 ranks: +1, 10 ranks: +2, 15 ranks: +3, etc). I would suggest something similar.

If, however, you are adament in the idea of the superiority of Heal over Curing, then I would suggest that the level of the spell be added to the maximum hp that can be healed. Thus a Heal check of 8 with a Cure Light Wounds would be treated as if the Heal check were 9. Furthermore, Heal would offer a synergy bonus to the amount healed. To demonstrate:

Roland's friend is reduced to -8 hp in a single terrible blow! As the creature turns aside to face the other fighter, Roland (Clr 5) rushes in and attempts to heal his companion. He casts CSW and his heal check is 17! (+2 Wis, +2 Self-Sufficient, 5 ranks, rolled 5, +3 CSW level). He makes his rolls: 3, 2, 5, +2 (heal: standard synergy), +5 (level), for a total of 17 - the maximum he could heal! His friend is restored to 9 hp. He retreats to regain his breath and pulls out from his backpack that cure potion he had been saving.

Hmm. I would make one other change. The level limit of healing does not include class level for Cure spells. This is equivalent to adding the class level to the spell (making the maximum in the previous case 22 instead). It raises the bar, but not too far. Heal checks basically affects the random aspects of the spell - the die roll. The level is a nonrandom element and so is not affected in this variant.
Thelon Fairblade
05-05-04, 12:36 PM I think you should keep Heal and cure separate. If you really must combine them, then let the heal skill influence the cure spell in a minor way. For example, the previously suggested "synergy" bonuses (+1 per 5 ranks), or skill-roll +1 hp cured per 10 pts of final result.

On the other hand, I have no problem with Heal being able to restore hp from recent wounds. Something small, and immediate, and based on the wound. Say, DC = damage suffered in last wound. Heal skill heals d4 hp, +1 for masterwork kit, +1 for appropriate herbs (anti-burn cream for fire damage, for example)... maybe +1 per additional 10 beyond the DC. Maximum is amount of damage. Fail by less than 5, 1 point is still restored.

So Roland's buddy gets a final cut from the foe as it dies, inflicting 8 damage. Roland's DC is 8 to help his friend; with his Heal skill bonus of +11, this is trivial - he takes 10 for a result of 21. Roland heals 1d4 (base) +1 (kit) +1 (herbalism bonus) +1 (beat DC by 10) = 6 pts.

Later, Roland gets hit with a 24 pt fireball. his buddy now tries to return the favor, but has only a Heal skill bonus of +3 (untrained, wisdom), +5 by using Roland's kit. the DC is 24... Roland's buddy rolls a 15, for a result of 20. That's good enough to heal 1 pt of burns (failed by less than 5), but not much else.

Can make it more difficult by making the DC 5+wounds, or higher. Can be more effective by making the hp restored +1 per 5 pts instead of 10, or increased die size based on skill ranks or skill roll result (5 ranks = d6, 10 ranks = d8, 15 ranks = d10, 20 ranks = 2d6).

It only works on the last wound, though, and only within, say, 3 rounds. A Healer might take a -10 to his check in order to apply his skill to more than 1 person in that crucial 3-round time period...
Krelios
05-05-04, 12:48 PM Do not allow the cure spell to be retained. Remember, already clerics can choose not to learn any curative magic since their spells can be auto-converted into it. I can just imagine a cleric changing a bestow curse into a Cure spell, then rolling well and not losing the 'cure' spell. What? Clerics don't "learn" any spells--they automatically know all spells of the level they can cast. No matter how well you roll on your cure spell it is still used (so that's one less slot available to you that day).... I really don't understand what you're trying to say here.
Aurotuli
05-05-04, 07:30 PM The final result is basically the same.

The other poster suggested the idea that the heal check might instead be used to keep from using up the slot (which would normally be used when using a cure spell). I suggested against it because most clerics do not memorize / pray for a curative spell - they spontaneously convert another spell into a Cure equivalent.

If you allow the caster to make a heal check to keep the slot unused, they will be benefitting too greatly. Thus the example regarding spontaneously converting a Bestow Curse into a Cure but - due to a Heal check - keeping the Bestow Curse slot.
danielinthewolvesden
05-05-04, 08:16 PM The heal skill is already very useful. Sure, it doesn't do much other than stabilize in the middle of combat. But long term healing is VERY useful, and using the healing skill to raise the Fort save for secondary poison effetc has saved several folks. Nope, it's fine the way it is. Now, if they'd just re-write "Fast healing" so as it made sense, I'd be happy....:rolleyes:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
radu the wanderer 05-04-04, 04:13 PM	Here's an idea I have used in previous games to boost the viability of the Heal skill, something I think is badly needed. As is, there is very little reason to take very many ranks in this skill, whereas every other skill has a great incentive, even the somewhat "marginal" skills like Forgery and Appraise. Heal is now THE cornerstone of any herbalism, healing, and surgery knowlege. The Profession (Herbalist) and Craft (Poison) skills are scrapped in this variant, being folded into Heal. Heal also is necessary for any magical healing, as explained below. Heal as a factor in curative spells: I have always thought that curative magic should be more effective for someone who knows how to treat injuries in a mundane manner--- after all, knowing exactly what needs to be treated, which wounds are more critical, how to assess the situation, etc, should let you channel the healing energy exactly where it is most needed. To include this, I set the HP cap on any curative spell to be = to the caster's Heal check. An example is below: Hrothgar, a mighty berserker (Barbarian 10) a nasty blow-- he is now at -3 HP. Fennald the combat medic is too far away to aid him, but Teliel, a mighty champion of light (Paladin 12), quickly cuts his way to him across the battlefield. Teliel is not as focused on healing as Fennald, having a total skill check of +6-- hopefully it's enough. Teliel prays to Heironious and casts Cure Moderate Wounds. Rolling the dice, he gets a 5 and a 7. Normally this would cure 18 HP (with Teliel's caster level of 6), but Teliel botches his Heal check with a 2... only 8 HP are restored. It's enough to get Hrothgar on his feet again. Teliel stands his ground to cover Hrothgar's retreat back to Fennald, the combat medic. Hrothgar is badly wounded on the field, down to 5 HP. His companion Fennald rushes to his aid, invoking a prayer to the spirits. Fennald's player casts Cure Critical Wounds and makes a Heal check. Fennald, being a 9th level Cleric, has a Heal modifier of +20 (Fennald is a dedicated combat medic). Fennald's player rolls and gets a 17-- an amazing roll! His total is 37. This is the maximum amount of HP Fennald can cure with this spell. Now Fennald rolls for curing: 1, 3, 8, 6-- not too bad, but could be alot better. Fennald cures a total of 27 HP. If he had rolled better, say 6, 7, 8, 8, he could still only cure 37 HP, even though his caster level is 9. What do you guys think? Maxing, at 20th level, you'd have a +23 Heal check plus Wisdom... it's not unreasonable to assume you'd have at least a +5 by this point, and probably closer to a +10 Wisdom modifier.... add in a masterwork Healer's Kit, Skill Focus: Heal, and Self-Sufficient and your base goes to +30 even without a Wis mod added in.... you could get it up to +40 or so with a few spells and a bit of thought, meaning the Heal check as max HP restored is rather meaningless--- how often do you need to cure 50 hp with a "cure" spell? This may not work exactly as I planned, but with a bit of tweaking I think it could do a pretty good job of bumping Heal's usefulness up.
Necron013 05-04-04, 09:01 PM	I think that this variant make divine spellcasters weaker rather than improving Heal. However, Perhaps give a +1 to the amount Healed by a spell for every 10 points made on a Heal check, to a limit of the amount provided by the spell alone (so Cure Minor Wounds heals 1 hp, or 2 if you make a DC10 Heal check). Another possibility is to allow the regaining of a Healing spell on a successful Heal check at DC 20+twice the spell's level, made at the time of casting.
TwinBahamut 05-04-04, 10:06 PM	Adding the functionality of the Treat Injury Skill from d20 Modern to the D&D heal skill is a good way to increase its power. It is still much weaker than magical healing, but can actually heal a lot of hit points at once. Altering magical healing to take into account the Heal Skill is also a good and logical idea, but I think your idea simply reduces the effectiveness of healing and adds too many dice rolls. Maybe a different option would be to create a new line of healing spells in addition to the Cure Wounds set. Something like: Mystic Surgery Conjuration, Healing Level: ????? Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 round Range: Touch Target: Creature Touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude half (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The caster channels forth healing energies in a highly controlled manner, guiding them with surgical skill. The caster makes a Heal check, and restores a number of hit points to the target equal to the result. The caster can take 10 on this check, but can not take 20. Greater Mystic Surgery Conjuration, Healing Level: ????? Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 round Range: Touch Target: Creature Touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude half (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The caster channels forth potent healing energies in a highly controlled manner, guiding them with surgical skill. The caster makes a Heal check, and restores a number of the target's hit points equal to the result multiplied by 2. The caster can take 10 on this check, but can not take 20. Not sure what level to assign to these spells though...
Aurotuli 05-04-04, 10:20 PM	Do not allow the cure spell to be retained. Remember, already clerics can choose not to learn any curative magic since their spells can be auto-converted into it. I can just imagine a cleric changing a bestow curse into a Cure spell, then rolling well and not losing the 'cure' spell. The first idea is good, but it empowers Heal at the expense of clerical curing. Not a problem IMCW, since I replaced spontaneous curing with Lay on Hands (so their Cha is used for more than turning and diplomacy). Every use of Lay on Hands, IMCW, gains a synergy bonus from Heal ranks. Of course, I treat synergy different also: +1 / 5 ranks (thus 5 ranks: +1, 10 ranks: +2, 15 ranks: +3, etc). I would suggest something similar. If, however, you are adament in the idea of the superiority of Heal over Curing, then I would suggest that the level of the spell be added to the maximum hp that can be healed. Thus a Heal check of 8 with a Cure Light Wounds would be treated as if the Heal check were 9. Furthermore, Heal would offer a synergy bonus to the amount healed. To demonstrate: Roland's friend is reduced to -8 hp in a single terrible blow! As the creature turns aside to face the other fighter, Roland (Clr 5) rushes in and attempts to heal his companion. He casts CSW and his heal check is 17! (+2 Wis, +2 Self-Sufficient, 5 ranks, rolled 5, +3 CSW level). He makes his rolls: 3, 2, 5, +2 (heal: standard synergy), +5 (level), for a total of 17 - the maximum he could heal! His friend is restored to 9 hp. He retreats to regain his breath and pulls out from his backpack that cure potion he had been saving. Hmm. I would make one other change. The level limit of healing does not include class level for Cure spells. This is equivalent to adding the class level to the spell (making the maximum in the previous case 22 instead). It raises the bar, but not too far. Heal checks basically affects the random aspects of the spell - the die roll. The level is a nonrandom element and so is not affected in this variant.
Thelon Fairblade 05-05-04, 12:36 PM	I think you should keep Heal and cure separate. If you really must combine them, then let the heal skill influence the cure spell in a minor way. For example, the previously suggested "synergy" bonuses (+1 per 5 ranks), or skill-roll +1 hp cured per 10 pts of final result. On the other hand, I have no problem with Heal being able to restore hp from recent wounds. Something small, and immediate, and based on the wound. Say, DC = damage suffered in last wound. Heal skill heals d4 hp, +1 for masterwork kit, +1 for appropriate herbs (anti-burn cream for fire damage, for example)... maybe +1 per additional 10 beyond the DC. Maximum is amount of damage. Fail by less than 5, 1 point is still restored. So Roland's buddy gets a final cut from the foe as it dies, inflicting 8 damage. Roland's DC is 8 to help his friend; with his Heal skill bonus of +11, this is trivial - he takes 10 for a result of 21. Roland heals 1d4 (base) +1 (kit) +1 (herbalism bonus) +1 (beat DC by 10) = 6 pts. Later, Roland gets hit with a 24 pt fireball. his buddy now tries to return the favor, but has only a Heal skill bonus of +3 (untrained, wisdom), +5 by using Roland's kit. the DC is 24... Roland's buddy rolls a 15, for a result of 20. That's good enough to heal 1 pt of burns (failed by less than 5), but not much else. Can make it more difficult by making the DC 5+wounds, or higher. Can be more effective by making the hp restored +1 per 5 pts instead of 10, or increased die size based on skill ranks or skill roll result (5 ranks = d6, 10 ranks = d8, 15 ranks = d10, 20 ranks = 2d6). It only works on the last wound, though, and only within, say, 3 rounds. A Healer might take a -10 to his check in order to apply his skill to more than 1 person in that crucial 3-round time period...
Krelios 05-05-04, 12:48 PM	Do not allow the cure spell to be retained. Remember, already clerics can choose not to learn any curative magic since their spells can be auto-converted into it. I can just imagine a cleric changing a bestow curse into a Cure spell, then rolling well and not losing the 'cure' spell. What? Clerics don't "learn" any spells--they automatically know all spells of the level they can cast. No matter how well you roll on your cure spell it is still used (so that's one less slot available to you that day).... I really don't understand what you're trying to say here.
Aurotuli 05-05-04, 07:30 PM	The final result is basically the same. The other poster suggested the idea that the heal check might instead be used to keep from using up the slot (which would normally be used when using a cure spell). I suggested against it because most clerics do not memorize / pray for a curative spell - they spontaneously convert another spell into a Cure equivalent. If you allow the caster to make a heal check to keep the slot unused, they will be benefitting too greatly. Thus the example regarding spontaneously converting a Bestow Curse into a Cure but - due to a Heal check - keeping the Bestow Curse slot.
danielinthewolvesden 05-05-04, 08:16 PM	The heal skill is already very useful. Sure, it doesn't do much other than stabilize in the middle of combat. But long term healing is VERY useful, and using the healing skill to raise the Fort save for secondary poison effetc has saved several folks. Nope, it's fine the way it is. Now, if they'd just re-write "Fast healing" so as it made sense, I'd be happy....:rolleyes: