Break and Threshold (P.E.A.C.H.) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Break and Threshold (P.E.A.C.H.) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Movanic
12-12-07, 01:22 PM I once posted this - but it appears the forums ate the thread... and since I wanted opinions on a new take on it, I post again. :bump:
Good day to all, this is what I would like feedback on :

Characters now have another characteristic: Threshold. When a character suffers more damage in a single attack (much like the massive damage rule) than his Threshold, he suffers a Break. A Break has no effect in and of itself - it is a gateway for (generally) feat enabled effects. Unless otherwise specified, creatures immune to critical damage are immune to the effects of a Break. Variant: default inflicts one point of Constitution damage.

A Break never allows a save. There are no perhaps and no maybes - quick and painful. The purpose was to have added effects w/o slowing down play - and saves upon saves tends to do just that.

The value of a characters Threshold is :
Option 1: Hit Die value of his highest level + his Base Fort Save + Constitution mod. + misc bonuses.
Ex: Sayol, Druid 2 / Rogue 3, Constitution 15. Threshold = 6 + 4 + 2 + 0 = 12.

Option 2: Hit Die value of his highest level + his Base Fort Save + Half his level + misc bonuses.
Ex: Sayol, Druid 2 / Rogue 3, Constitution 15. Threshold = 6 + 4 + 2 + 0 = 12.

There is one special consideration that can be used : When a character suffers Constitution damage as a result of a Break, he looses only the greater of the damage suffered or the hp loss resulting from the Stamina damage.

Ex: Sayol suffers an ogre's sword slash for 23 points of damage and a second one for 17 points of damage. Both attacks produce a Break. With the first attack, Sayol looses 23 hp and suffers 1 point of Constitution damage - nothing more to say. For the second attack, Sayol looses 17 hp and 1 point of Constitution - however, he does not loose the addional 5 hp he would normaly loose for having his Constitution modifier reduced.

Should he be healed, his maximum hp are reduced as per the normal rules - i.e. they would be reduced by 5.

These are possible Feats or special abilities that go with the Threshold and Break rules. Comments on which could be made into feats (and thus available to PCs) are more than welcome!

*These Break abilities can affect creatures or objects immune to critical hits.

Muscle Rip: When you score a Break, you also deal 1 point of Strength damage.

Tendon Rip: When you score a Break, you also deal 1 point of Agility damage.

Whisper Slice: You lower your opponents Threshold value by 3. You may only deal a single point of ability damage, which may not be Stamina damage, with a Break. All other effects are proscribed.

Break the Legs: When you score a Break, you also reduce the target's "land" Speed by 5 ft. (This effect is cumulative with itself.) This effect can be removed as if it were a caltrop wound.

Crushingly Pulverizing Blow: When you score a Break with a TH bludgeoning weapon, your foe is staggered for 1 round. Interestingly, a foe that was staggered in the previous round is immune to this effect.

Go For the Eyes! : When you score a Break, you also dazzle your foe for 1 round.

Really Go For the Eyes! : Req. Go For the Eyes Should you cause a Break at least as many times as your oponent possess eyes whithin a single round, he is blinded for 1 round. A foe that was blind in a previous round is immune to this effect.

*Takes A Lickin' And Keeps On Tickin': Your Threshold value is increased by 3. Special: You may take this feat multiple times; its effect stacks.

*Improbable Retribution: Req. Takes A Lickin' And Keeps On Tickin' When you suffer a Break, you may, before the effects of the attack take hold, take an AoO against the offending villain. No matter what, you still suffer the effects of the original attack, as normal.

*Persistant Flame: Should the amount of [Fire] damage the foe suffers be sufficient to provoke a Break on its own, it catches on fire.

Numbing Cold: Should the amount of [Cold] damage the foe suffers be sufficient to provoke a Break on its own, it is slowed for 1 round. Much as with Crushingly Pulverizing Blow, a foe that was slowed in the previous round is immune to this effect.

Scarring Flame: Should the amount of [Fire] damage the foe suffers be sufficient to provoke a Break on its own, it suffers a horrible burn scar. This scar imposes a -2 circumstance penalty to Diplomacy checks but also provides a +1 circumstance bonus to Intimidate checks. The scar is permanent; barring powerful healing magics such as regeneration. Situations or outlooks may negate the bonus and/or penalty.

*Driving Force: Should the amount of [Force] damage the foe suffers be sufficient to provoke a break on its own, it is also pushed back 5 feet. The opponent choses the exact placement but it must be further from the spells "origin/orientation".

Unbearable Pain: When you score a Break, your target suffers a -1 penalty to attack rolls and to skill and ability checks for 1 round.

OOOWWwwWWW!: Req. Unbearable Pain. When you score a Break, your target suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls, saves, and skill and ability checks for 1 round.

***I use this rule with the following variant : When a character's Hit Points drop to 0, all additional damage is treated as Constitution damage.

The goal is to add-in some cool effects w/o bogging down play to much. Ideally, this would be balanced - but my skill at such is not revered by my players... ("Etienne Made" is an expression meaning : This monster is to strong, we are doomed.)

I would especially like to hear opinions on the two Options for determining Threshold. The ideal goal is to have something that will equate to a "regular but very powerful blow" - such as an un-optimised crit or a successful sneak attack. Also, the characteristic should be relatively stable : the goal is to not bog-down play, and having to recalculate stuff every round tends to do just that. Lastly, there should be some reflection of class-type in the value : i.e. more "meat-shield" types should possess a greater Threshold.

Lastly, originally, a Break would inflict a point of Constitution damage as the default effect. Should I re-instate this, or is it better, by having the Break have no intrisic effect, to permit for the rule to be ignored if it is so desired - while still being "in-game".

Thank you kindly for the feedback (good or bad.)
NecroBobb
12-12-07, 02:17 PM I like this mechanic! I'm now going to suggest this to my group (we're trying to make non-casters more interesting)

Personally, I'd probably want a minor default effect of a break, just so everyone will be more inclined to keep track of their threshold. Maybe after suffering a break you are unable of using a full round action on your next turn? I think a point of Constitution damage might be a bit much without a feat, though.

Also, are the effects of Muscle rip/Tendon rip cumulative? I'm assuming not.

As for the two options for determining threshold, I can see them both working, though I'd rather something that scales up a bit faster and is fast/easy to calculate (so I can mentally calculate threshold on random encounters without slowing down game play.) Maybe just straight Constitution+ HD?

Lastly, would beings immune to critical hits be immune to break?
Talisman
12-12-07, 02:36 PM Hmm...this looks quite interesting.

First, when you refer to "Stamina," I'm assuming you actually mean Constitution, since I know of no Stamina stat in D&D.

Overall, I like the look of this rule, with a couple of caveats. Be aware that this will give barbarians and 2H fighters a power boost, as they are more likely to achieve breaks on opponents with their massive, single-blow damage output.

Also, be aware that blaster-type spellcasters will achieve many breaks, what with their huge piles of damage dice.

For determining Threshold, consider base Fort save + Con modifier + 1/2 BAB. This reflects the fact that skilled warriors are better at enduring punishing blows, which makes sense.

Another option would be that your Threshold is equal to 1/2 your current hp. This means that, after getting banged up a bit, you'd be taking Breaks (har!) a lot more frequently. You may or may not want this to be the case.

I think Con damage is a bit much for the "default" effect...Con is the most vulnerable stat. I suggest The Floating -2: a character who suffered a Break is at -2 to all d20 rolls on the next round.

Also, I think anything immune to crits should be immune to breaks as well. This fits perfectly with the concept of oozes, constructs and undead...you can't target their vitals, and until they're utterly demolished, they don't care how much damage they take.
Movanic
12-13-07, 11:40 AM Hmm...this looks quite interesting.Thanks! :D
First, when you refer to "Stamina," I'm assuming you actually mean Constitution, since I know of no Stamina stat in D&D.Sorry about that, I'll edit - I thought I got them all...
Overall, I like the look of this rule, with a couple of caveats. Be aware that this will give barbarians and 2H fighters a power boost, as they are more likely to achieve breaks on opponents with their massive, single-blow damage output.

Also, be aware that blaster-type spellcasters will achieve many breaks, what with their huge piles of damage dice.As well as rogues who sneak attack ;) But yeah, it'll be easier for them to get a Break straight off - I think I'll add more stuff to make TWF a viable option. Perhaps expand upon Whisper Slice...
For determining Threshold, consider base Fort save + Con modifier + 1/2 BAB. This reflects the fact that skilled warriors are better at enduring punishing blows, which makes sense.The thing is that a regular Con 10 mage will have a Break of 0 at 1st level... That's not good. ;)

I think Con damage is a bit much for the "default" effect...Con is the most vulnerable stat. I suggest The Floating -2: a character who suffered a Break is at -2 to all d20 rolls on the next round.That is a nice effect - snatched! ;)

Also, I think anything immune to crits should be immune to breaks as well. This fits perfectly with the concept of oozes, constructs and undead...you can't target their vitals, and until they're utterly demolished, they don't care how much damage they take.Lastly, would beings immune to critical hits be immune to break?True that. However, especially for some of the magical effects, the mechanic could still play a roll Vs crit immune opponents.

For example, setting a zombie on fire with a particularly powerful fire spell is pretty neat - as well as pushing back a specter with a force spell.

As such, I might go and specify which ability require a "critable" opponent for each effect - keeping the mechanic active but "ineffective".

I like this mechanic! I'm now going to suggest this to my group (we're trying to make non-casters more interesting)Would love to hear the feed-back on this!

Personally, I'd probably want a minor default effect of a break, just so everyone will be more inclined to keep track of their threshold. Maybe after suffering a break you are unable of using a full round action on your next turn? I think a point of Constitution damage might be a bit much without a feat, though.This option may be even deadlier to the PCs than Con damage - suffering a Break every round is a very real possibility : so if the characters have only half their actions, it may end up as if they were constantly slowed (or playing zombies! :lol:)

Also, are the effects of Muscle rip/Tendon rip cumulative? I'm assuming not.As it damage, yeah, it is. :devil:

As for the two options for determining threshold, I can see them both working, though I'd rather something that scales up a bit faster and is fast/easy to calculate (so I can mentally calculate threshold on random encounters without slowing down game play.) Maybe just straight Constitution+ HD?If you take out "easy" Con damage, that can definetly work - but that number can get pretty high!

Thanks for the ideas! I'll think on them. :plotting:

Idea for TWF:
Whisper Slice: When you wield a one-handed or light slashing or piercing weapon, you lower your opponent's Threshold by 3 for attacks from this weapon.
Murmur's of Pain: Req. Whisper Slice, TWF. If you hit an opponent with two or more different weapons in this round, its Threshold is considered 5 points lower. This effect superseeds that of whisper slice.

Inspired by the Allmighty ToB
Getting His Attention: When you score a Break, until his next action, if you are within his reach, your opponent may only take AoO againts you.
I'm Over Here Ya Chicken! :chicken:: Req. Getting His Attention. When you score a Break, for 1 round, if you are within his reach, your opponent only threatens you.
Maybe To Much Attention... : Req. Getting His Attention, I'm Over Here Y'a Chicken!. When you score a Break, for 1 round, if you are within his reach, your opponent only threatens you. It looses its Dodge bonus to AC against other characters and gains a +1 moral bonus to damage against you (ranged, spell, melee: it matters not.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Movanic 12-12-07, 01:22 PM	I once posted this - but it appears the forums ate the thread... and since I wanted opinions on a new take on it, I post again. :bump: Good day to all, this is what I would like feedback on : Characters now have another characteristic: Threshold. When a character suffers more damage in a single attack (much like the massive damage rule) than his Threshold, he suffers a Break. A Break has no effect in and of itself - it is a gateway for (generally) feat enabled effects. Unless otherwise specified, creatures immune to critical damage are immune to the effects of a Break. Variant: default inflicts one point of Constitution damage. A Break never allows a save. There are no perhaps and no maybes - quick and painful. The purpose was to have added effects w/o slowing down play - and saves upon saves tends to do just that. The value of a characters Threshold is : Option 1: Hit Die value of his highest level + his Base Fort Save + Constitution mod. + misc bonuses. Ex: Sayol, Druid 2 / Rogue 3, Constitution 15. Threshold = 6 + 4 + 2 + 0 = 12. Option 2: Hit Die value of his highest level + his Base Fort Save + Half his level + misc bonuses. Ex: Sayol, Druid 2 / Rogue 3, Constitution 15. Threshold = 6 + 4 + 2 + 0 = 12. There is one special consideration that can be used : When a character suffers Constitution damage as a result of a Break, he looses only the greater of the damage suffered or the hp loss resulting from the Stamina damage. Ex: Sayol suffers an ogre's sword slash for 23 points of damage and a second one for 17 points of damage. Both attacks produce a Break. With the first attack, Sayol looses 23 hp and suffers 1 point of Constitution damage - nothing more to say. For the second attack, Sayol looses 17 hp and 1 point of Constitution - however, he does not loose the addional 5 hp he would normaly loose for having his Constitution modifier reduced. Should he be healed, his maximum hp are reduced as per the normal rules - i.e. they would be reduced by 5. These are possible Feats or special abilities that go with the Threshold and Break rules. Comments on which could be made into feats (and thus available to PCs) are more than welcome! These Break abilities can affect creatures or objects immune to critical hits. Muscle Rip: When you score a Break, you also deal 1 point of Strength damage. Tendon Rip: When you score a Break, you also deal 1 point of Agility damage. Whisper Slice: You lower your opponents Threshold value by 3. You may only deal a single point of ability damage, which may not be Stamina damage, with a Break. All other effects are proscribed. Break the Legs: When you score a Break, you also reduce the target's "land" Speed by 5 ft. (This effect is cumulative with itself.) This effect can be removed as if it were a caltrop wound. Crushingly Pulverizing Blow: When you score a Break with a TH bludgeoning weapon, your foe is staggered for 1 round. Interestingly, a foe that was staggered in the previous round is immune to this effect. Go For the Eyes! : When you score a Break, you also dazzle your foe for 1 round. Really Go For the Eyes! : Req. Go For the Eyes Should you cause a Break at least as many times as your oponent possess eyes whithin a single round, he is blinded for 1 round. A foe that was blind in a previous round is immune to this effect. Takes A Lickin' And Keeps On Tickin': Your Threshold value is increased by 3. Special: You may take this feat multiple times; its effect stacks. Improbable Retribution: Req. Takes A Lickin' And Keeps On Tickin' When you suffer a Break, you may, before the effects of the attack take hold, take an AoO against the offending villain. No matter what, you still suffer the effects of the original attack, as normal. Persistant Flame: Should the amount of [Fire] damage the foe suffers be sufficient to provoke a Break on its own, it catches on fire. Numbing Cold: Should the amount of [Cold] damage the foe suffers be sufficient to provoke a Break on its own, it is slowed for 1 round. Much as with Crushingly Pulverizing Blow, a foe that was slowed in the previous round is immune to this effect. Scarring Flame: Should the amount of [Fire] damage the foe suffers be sufficient to provoke a Break on its own, it suffers a horrible burn scar. This scar imposes a -2 circumstance penalty to Diplomacy checks but also provides a +1 circumstance bonus to Intimidate checks. The scar is permanent; barring powerful healing magics such as regeneration. Situations or outlooks may negate the bonus and/or penalty. Driving Force: Should the amount of [Force] damage the foe suffers be sufficient to provoke a break on its own, it is also pushed back 5 feet. The opponent choses the exact placement but it must be further from the spells "origin/orientation". Unbearable Pain: When you score a Break, your target suffers a -1 penalty to attack rolls and to skill and ability checks for 1 round. OOOWWwwWWW!: Req. Unbearable Pain. When you score a Break, your target suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls, saves, and skill and ability checks for 1 round. **I use this rule with the following variant : When a character's Hit Points drop to 0, all additional damage is treated as Constitution damage. The goal is to add-in some cool effects w/o bogging down play to much. Ideally, this would be balanced - but my skill at such is not revered by my players... ("Etienne Made" is an expression meaning : This monster is to strong, we are doomed.) I would especially like to hear opinions on the two Options for determining Threshold. The ideal goal is to have something that will equate to a "regular but very powerful blow" - such as an un-optimised crit or a successful sneak attack. Also, the characteristic should be relatively stable : the goal is to not bog-down play, and having to recalculate stuff every round tends to do just that. Lastly, there should be some reflection of class-type in the value : i.e. more "meat-shield" types should possess a greater Threshold. Lastly, originally, a Break would inflict a point of Constitution damage as the default effect. Should I re-instate this, or is it better, by having the Break have no intrisic effect, to permit for the rule to be ignored if it is so desired - while still being "in-game". Thank you kindly for the feedback (good or bad.)
NecroBobb 12-12-07, 02:17 PM	I like this mechanic! I'm now going to suggest this to my group (we're trying to make non-casters more interesting) Personally, I'd probably want a minor default effect of a break, just so everyone will be more inclined to keep track of their threshold. Maybe after suffering a break you are unable of using a full round action on your next turn? I think a point of Constitution damage might be a bit much without a feat, though. Also, are the effects of Muscle rip/Tendon rip cumulative? I'm assuming not. As for the two options for determining threshold, I can see them both working, though I'd rather something that scales up a bit faster and is fast/easy to calculate (so I can mentally calculate threshold on random encounters without slowing down game play.) Maybe just straight Constitution+ HD? Lastly, would beings immune to critical hits be immune to break?
Talisman 12-12-07, 02:36 PM	Hmm...this looks quite interesting. First, when you refer to "Stamina," I'm assuming you actually mean Constitution, since I know of no Stamina stat in D&D. Overall, I like the look of this rule, with a couple of caveats. Be aware that this will give barbarians and 2H fighters a power boost, as they are more likely to achieve breaks on opponents with their massive, single-blow damage output. Also, be aware that blaster-type spellcasters will achieve many breaks, what with their huge piles of damage dice. For determining Threshold, consider base Fort save + Con modifier + 1/2 BAB. This reflects the fact that skilled warriors are better at enduring punishing blows, which makes sense. Another option would be that your Threshold is equal to 1/2 your current hp. This means that, after getting banged up a bit, you'd be taking Breaks (har!) a lot more frequently. You may or may not want this to be the case. I think Con damage is a bit much for the "default" effect...Con is the most vulnerable stat. I suggest The Floating -2: a character who suffered a Break is at -2 to all d20 rolls on the next round. Also, I think anything immune to crits should be immune to breaks as well. This fits perfectly with the concept of oozes, constructs and undead...you can't target their vitals, and until they're utterly demolished, they don't care how much damage they take.
Movanic 12-13-07, 11:40 AM	Hmm...this looks quite interesting.Thanks! :D First, when you refer to "Stamina," I'm assuming you actually mean Constitution, since I know of no Stamina stat in D&D.Sorry about that, I'll edit - I thought I got them all... Overall, I like the look of this rule, with a couple of caveats. Be aware that this will give barbarians and 2H fighters a power boost, as they are more likely to achieve breaks on opponents with their massive, single-blow damage output. Also, be aware that blaster-type spellcasters will achieve many breaks, what with their huge piles of damage dice.As well as rogues who sneak attack ;) But yeah, it'll be easier for them to get a Break straight off - I think I'll add more stuff to make TWF a viable option. Perhaps expand upon Whisper Slice... For determining Threshold, consider base Fort save + Con modifier + 1/2 BAB. This reflects the fact that skilled warriors are better at enduring punishing blows, which makes sense.The thing is that a regular Con 10 mage will have a Break of 0 at 1st level... That's not good. ;) I think Con damage is a bit much for the "default" effect...Con is the most vulnerable stat. I suggest The Floating -2: a character who suffered a Break is at -2 to all d20 rolls on the next round.That is a nice effect - snatched! ;) Also, I think anything immune to crits should be immune to breaks as well. This fits perfectly with the concept of oozes, constructs and undead...you can't target their vitals, and until they're utterly demolished, they don't care how much damage they take.Lastly, would beings immune to critical hits be immune to break?True that. However, especially for some of the magical effects, the mechanic could still play a roll Vs crit immune opponents. For example, setting a zombie on fire with a particularly powerful fire spell is pretty neat - as well as pushing back a specter with a force spell. As such, I might go and specify which ability require a "critable" opponent for each effect - keeping the mechanic active but "ineffective". I like this mechanic! I'm now going to suggest this to my group (we're trying to make non-casters more interesting)Would love to hear the feed-back on this! Personally, I'd probably want a minor default effect of a break, just so everyone will be more inclined to keep track of their threshold. Maybe after suffering a break you are unable of using a full round action on your next turn? I think a point of Constitution damage might be a bit much without a feat, though.This option may be even deadlier to the PCs than Con damage - suffering a Break every round is a very real possibility : so if the characters have only half their actions, it may end up as if they were constantly slowed (or playing zombies! :lol:) Also, are the effects of Muscle rip/Tendon rip cumulative? I'm assuming not.As it damage, yeah, it is. :devil: As for the two options for determining threshold, I can see them both working, though I'd rather something that scales up a bit faster and is fast/easy to calculate (so I can mentally calculate threshold on random encounters without slowing down game play.) Maybe just straight Constitution+ HD?If you take out "easy" Con damage, that can definetly work - but that number can get pretty high! Thanks for the ideas! I'll think on them. :plotting: Idea for TWF: Whisper Slice: When you wield a one-handed or light slashing or piercing weapon, you lower your opponent's Threshold by 3 for attacks from this weapon. Murmur's of Pain: Req. Whisper Slice, TWF. If you hit an opponent with two or more different weapons in this round, its Threshold is considered 5 points lower. This effect superseeds that of whisper slice. Inspired by the Allmighty ToB Getting His Attention: When you score a Break, until his next action, if you are within his reach, your opponent may only take AoO againts you. I'm Over Here Ya Chicken! :chicken:: Req. Getting His Attention. When you score a Break, for 1 round, if you are within his reach, your opponent only threatens you. Maybe To Much Attention... : Req. Getting His Attention, I'm Over Here Y'a Chicken!. When you score a Break, for 1 round, if you are within his reach, your opponent only threatens you. It looses its Dodge bonus to AC against other characters and gains a +1 moral bonus to damage against you (ranged, spell, melee: it matters not.)