Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dungeonrenter 06-25-07, 12:14 PM	ok, Along with magic, one of the things that would need to change in a shift from per day to per encounter game balancing is per day abilties. Quite simply they need to become "per encounter" abilties. The way I propose to do this is by using a system similar to the way TOB lets characters recover manuevers. Here is what I have thus far: Per Day Abilities Many classes have abilities that can be used a certain number of times per day. Instead players can use these abilities a number of times per encounter. Depending on how many times per day they were allowed to use the ability determines how many times they can use it per encounter they can use it and if they can recover it during the encounter. The number of times per encounter an ability is usable is listed in the table below. Uses Per day Uses Per Encounter Recovery 1 1 Cannot recover in the encounter 2 1 Recover with a standard action 3 1 Recover with a move action 4 2 Must expend both then able to recover one with a move action 5 3 Must expend all then recover 1 with a move action 6 3 Must expend all then recover all with a move action 7+ 3 May recover 1 with a move action or all with a move action if all are expended. Well, what do you think? Edit for clarity: The first number is how many times the ability can currently be used per day, the second is how many times it can be used per encounter and the line of text indicates what you hve to do to recover.
fatal error 06-25-07, 02:17 PM	Hmm. Well, there's a problem with going from Per Day to Per Encounter. You can't give 1/4th of a Power per encounter, but that's what 1/day does. By giving a 1/day power to someone every encounter, you default to four times its regular rate. So, if you believe these abilities are balanced as they are now, then you may want to nerf them somewhat to make up for the fact that they will be used every encounter. Currently, I can't think of any Per Day abilities other than Rage and Smite, and I don't think either of those will be a problem being used in absolutely every encounter. Even though your scale progresses faster than the old Per Day progression would, I think I like it. However, I'd need to delve deeper into other Per Day abilities to make sure there weren't any problems. Also, you could make that a table by using [code] and [/ code].
shout27 06-25-07, 02:20 PM	turn standard action into Full-Round action, and move into standard. both provoke attacks of oppurtunity, unless you have Improved Recover. Quick Recovery reduces the time taken to standard and move respectively.
darkeness 06-25-07, 02:37 PM	turn standard action into Full-Round action, and move into standard. both provoke attacks of oppurtunity, unless you have Improved Recover. Quick Recovery reduces the time taken to standard and move respectively. I concure.
Dungeonrenter 06-25-07, 02:51 PM	I called a friend and he suggested basically what the two posters above me did. Fatal: Here is my commentary on your post. First D&D's encounter cycle is really based around magic. The party only has so many spells ans must rest once exhuasted. Whats more, a spellcaster devoid of spells plays a lot differntly than a combat character without his extraordinary abilties. A mage without a combat spell is the worst combatant on the table. A priest without a spell is also just inferior to a rogue or fighter. So, when they gave the combat classes their special abilties like rage and smite the idea was that they really probably wouldn't get used every battle becasue a barbarian doesn't need to be in his rage to be effective. However, if we lift the per day restrction from wizards and give thme the ability to face an unlimited number of encounters as spellcasters then melee characters become the people who hold the party up. NOw, its not really a big deal, but if you are going to break the cycle for one you have to do it for the others. So, yes, paladins will now smite once a combat. Barbarians are now pretty much always going to be able to rage. However, in some ways this isn't terribly different from before because often you wouldn't get your spellcasters through all 4 combats in a day. If you only got them through one or two it is likely the paladin and barbarian could use their powers once per combat. Secondly: The powers I was thinking of when crafting the table where: turn undead and smite. These powers are sort of opposite in how they are played. Smites you normally have one or two of for a whole day, while turns undead you often have 5 or more. With 5+ turn undead attempts most clerics will use 1 or even 2 every time they face undead. So this sort of thing needs to be considered. With 1-2 smites per day a paladin will probably hold his abilties till later encounters or for a tougher encounter. So my idea was to try and make it possible for people with 4+ on the chart to get 2 uses per encounter in some fashion and with those with less to get 1 use and have the option to use it again at some cost.
shout27 06-26-07, 12:17 AM	You might also want to change the 1/day = 1/encounter to 1/day = 1/2 encounters to reflect the fact that the creature/person might want to think twice before using it during This encounter.
Steely_Dan 06-26-07, 05:07 AM	You might also want to change the 1/day = 1/encounter to 1/day = 1/2 encounters to reflect the fact that the creature/person might want to think twice before using it during This encounter. I think that might confuse things. The half-celestial in the party might forget if she cast her detect evil last encounter or the one before etc. And some 1/day spell-like abilities might need to stay at once a day, but I totally agree that the whole game should be designed around per encounter, rather than this silly, assumed, 4 encounters a day-contrived silliness. I would like to see the D&D magic system get its long overdue facelift, and go the per encounter route, maybe something like the ToB system. I have already ported over mass changes from the Saga system to my fortnightly D&D campaign, and so far everyone loves it. The only bugbear left is the D&D magic/spell system.
Cheza 06-26-07, 07:51 AM	I know an alternative way. Instead of increasing recast time to 1/encounter, reduce the encounters to 1/day. :P I can't think of a paladin to lay on hands in every encounter. And the biggest problem not yet mentioned: The 1/day restriction is clear and useful even without any fight. The 1/encounter make things worse. If I do not fight, how many times per day can you use cure spells. How many times can you cast teleport, invisibility, ressurection, and so on. I don't like to see those things to be cast after a 1 hour rest. So if you think your characters are to weak for the encounter they will face, reduce the power of those creatures and give more XP to your players, so they will level-up faster. If they reach 10+ level, there shouldn't be any problem with "empty mages". BTW: If you use this crappy 4 encounters / day, your characters will level-up every third/fourth day. So they will reach level 20 within 2 month.
shout27 06-26-07, 09:21 AM	Don't forget that in a dungeon you rarely have a choice in how many encounters you trip. as for the 1/2 encounter, leave it up to the DM as a situational thing. An example would be the party is in a dungeon in a 30x30 room with 2 entrances they just slew a Dragon only for the double doors to burst open and reveal a Troll. while this counts as a new encounter, at best, only a round has passed since they slew the dragon.
Dungeonrenter 06-26-07, 09:21 AM	I know an alternative way. Instead of increasing recast time to 1/encounter, reduce the encounters to 1/day. :P Actually in a lot of the games I have played the party does seem to stop after a single encounter, especially between levels 3-7. They want to make sure they have their high level spells available. This is one of the problems I see with the d&d spell system. It encourages a snails pace form of play. I can't think of a paladin to lay on hands in every encounter. And the biggest problem not yet mentioned: The 1/day restriction is clear and useful even without any fight. The 1/encounter make things worse. If I do not fight, how many times per day can you use cure spells. How many times can you cast teleport, invisibility, ressurection, and so on. I don't like to see those things to be cast after a 1 hour rest. A paladin can already parse out his healing over any number of encounters, but you do make an interesting point. That ability would probably need a specific rewrite. The second is easy. Use the "specific recharge times" from recharge magic. This prevents invisbility, teleport etc from being used to solve every encounter due to the time delay before you can use it again. Buff type spells become semi-permanent, but on the other hand, they eat up a spell slot and usually can't effectively be used on more than one person at a time. So if you think your characters are to weak for the encounter they will face, reduce the power of those creatures and give more XP to your players, so they will level-up faster. If they reach 10+ level, there shouldn't be any problem with "empty mages". Its not a matter of weakness, its a matter of how the game is played. The entire "per day" setup of d&d is a disaster. The root problem is magic. Casters in D&D have too many spells per encounter and too few spells per day. This all to often leads to two oppsoing ideas that govern spellcasters. The first is the "blow it in the 1st encounter" wizard, who uses all of his spells in the first encounter of the day forcing the party to rest for fear that they will need his spell power, or the "magic hording" wizard who spends the whole game attacking with his crossbow just waiting for the monster that requires him to unload that never comes. Anyway, if you free spell casters of the per day cycle then you also need to free non spellcasters somewhat. They will quickly become what slows the party down. So they need access to their signature abilties more often.
elondir 06-26-07, 09:59 AM	I just make the encounters four times harder so they have to use all their resources at once (EL = average party level +4 to +7 seems to work well), or provide incentive to actually do four encounters per day (if they're in a tomb or something). Large numbers of mid-level NPCs can be a great drain on party resources, especially when a handful are equal level to the PCs.
Anodai 06-26-07, 10:07 AM	You could just have the PC's start out with higher scores and starting gear, it isn't proportionate but i find it works fine.
God of Slivers 06-27-07, 05:17 PM	If you find magic to be the problem then look up the recharge magic varient in UA. I think you'll find that it meets you needs quite nicely.
Cheza 06-30-07, 11:34 AM	Actually in a lot of the games I have played the party does seem to stop after a single encounter, especially between levels 3-7. They want to make sure they have their high level spells available. This is one of the problems I see with the d&d spell system. It encourages a snails pace form of play. Easy solution: Don't allow them to rest. As an argument: Even if you worked hard for 2 hours (equivalent to fighting a few rounds), your sleep wouldn't be replenishing. So your characters get only 1 "refueling" sleep per 24 hours. The second is easy. Use the "specific recharge times" from recharge magic. This prevents invisbility, teleport etc from being used to solve every encounter due to the time delay before you can use it again. Buff type spells become semi-permanent, but on the other hand, they eat up a spell slot and usually can't effectively be used on more than one person at a time. This shows to me, that there is a great difference in what "encounters" means. It sounds like you might think it could be every 5 minutes... I don't like recharge magic at all. A quick example: Aid - level 2 => 5 minutes Cure medium - level 2 => general (=< 1d4+1 rounds Bless - level 1 => 30 minutes Scorching Ray - level 2 => general (=< 1d4+1 rounds) How can this be balanced??? The main advantage of Aid are the temporary hitpoints. In the normal system, I can cast this spell as often as a scorching ray. It prevents damage similar to healing with a cure spell, if you cast Aid before damage is dealt. With the normal rules, you could compare Bless or Aid with damage spells. Both give an enduring increment of +5% chance to hit... this means +1 hit per 20 attacks. This could cause as much damage as a damaging spell could cause... with a little delay of course. Its not a matter of weakness, its a matter of how the game is played. The entire "per day" setup of d&d is a disaster. The root problem is magic. Casters in D&D have too many spells per encounter and too few spells per day. This all to often leads to two oppsoing ideas that govern spellcasters. The first is the "blow it in the 1st encounter" wizard, who uses all of his spells in the first encounter of the day forcing the party to rest for fear that they will need his spell power, or the "magic hording" wizard who spends the whole game attacking with his crossbow just waiting for the monster that requires him to unload that never comes. Most encounters don't last long enough to let a wizard use his crossbow, wven if he save some spells. With the option to let spell slots unprepared, a wizard doesn't have to waste to many slots for spells of rare usage. So if the first encounter was too tough, he can fill these slots with combat spells. If the don't encounter enemies, he can fill them up with supporting spells. I posted the list elsewhere in this forum: Recast time: +0: Once per day (16 hours) +1: 3x per day (every 4 hours) +2: 1x per hour +3: 1x every 15 minutes +4: 1x every 4 minutes +5: Once per minute +6: Every 1d4 rounds +7: at will If you use this list, you can easily solve the problem of 4/day encounters. You can increase the spell level by +1 so that the wizard can cast that spell every 4 hours or 3x per day. (You can change it to 4x per day if you wish) So it's similar to Innate spell (PGF p39). But instead of choosing one specific spell and loosing one spell slot of the same level, you'll have to increase the spell level by +1 and you won't be able to cast that spell as a spell-like ability. I think this sounds fair enough. However, if you wish to be able to cast it every 5 minutes, you should look for an alternative rule.