Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GAMBLE_d13 04-19-07, 07:08 AM	Hey there... Recently I decided to Play a Sword & Board Warblade, and thought (since it was my first ToB Character) that I would go and ask the friendly people over at the CO boards, how to make a decent "Sword and Boarder" the reply I got was 'ditch the shield and use a 2-handed weapon'. Now generally I'd be grateful for such help, except it didn't help... however the blame doesn't lie with the CO boards, it lies in the fact that using a Shield makes you less effective in combat. The main Reasons for this are: A) Power Attack trades 2 for 1 with a Two-handed weapon. B) You can apply 1.5 Str to Damage with a Two-handed Weapon. C) The Weapon damage of a Two-handed Weapon is generally greater than that of a One-handed Weapon. Now the reason all this is a probalem, is because a Shield doesn't offer similar benefits, note: A) Expertise only trades 1 for 1 regardless of weapon or shield. B) Dex is applied to AC normally regardless of Weapon or Shield. Note: A Shield's +2 to AC is generally balanced by a Two-handed Weapon's +2 Average to Damage. So, my "fix" or rather, house-rule on this matter is as follows. "When weilding a Light, Heavy, or Tower Shield, a character adds 1.5 x His Dex modifier to AC, further more, when using Combat Expertise (or its greater version) the Character gains a +2 bonus for each -1 to hit." So what do you all think? Good? Bad? Any thoughts? Cheers! ;)
Arcade 04-19-07, 09:16 AM	That's not too bad of an idea. Power attack is a very powerful feat, so much that almost all fighters must take it and used two-handed it is THE feat to take. I don't know if I'd give all shields a 1.5 to dex- perhaps only large shields. And given the max dex bonus due to heavy armors, this might not turn out so well after all. Many of the highest Dex combatants don't use shields normally anyway- or at least not under the current rules. Another good point about 2 handed weapons is for spellcasters. They can keep their weapon around by holding it in one hand and casting a spell. A shield and sword caster has to drop either his sword or shield to cast a spell. What might be useful is a feat which greatly increases the shield use to be on par with power attack, like increasing the combat expertise defensive bonus by a larger amount- not just a static +2, but perhaps +2 and an extra +1 for every 2 points sacrificed for a large or tower shield and and extra +1 for every 3 points BAB sacrificed for a small shield. Bucklers are like light weapons- no bonus besides the original +2. And give them a better bonus when fighting defensively or using full defense as well. The idea behind power attack is to increase damage and the bigger the weapon, the bigger the increase. So to balance it, we need something which says the bigger the shield, the bigger the increase when trying to increase defense.
Valoy_Muniz 04-19-07, 09:46 AM	I will admit that I only control non-casters when I am a Dm so it is diffrent but 2 things I want to bring up. 1) At least in many of my groups the fighter are not so much trying to do massive damage but keep the attacks coming at them instead of tthe other party mebers the are doing the damage so they need all the ac they can get. 2)A major benifit of a shield is the abiliy to enchant it up. A heavey steal shield +5 will add +7 armor to you and that is without any speacial magic on you. 3) +1 damage is not the same as +1 ac. Your hp normly goes up much faster then your ac does as you level up. While I will admit that the 2 hanned wepon (espealy spiked chain) will make your fighter much more damaging but to do so you are giving up alot of protection. Look at this as a example 2 fighters fight it out at 1st level. Both have 18 str, dex 12, Fulplate mail. The first fighter has a 2 hanned sword (does d10+6 or 16 max damage avage of 11) and his ac is a 18 and mele is a +5. The second fighter has a longsword (does d8+4 or 12 max damage, avage 8)and heavey shield, his ac is 20 and melee is a +5. Fighter 1 needs a roll of a 15 or better (20ac) to hit Fighter 2. This means he hits about 25% of the time. That puts his avage damage per round at. max damage at 4 (16*.25) and avage at 2.75 (11*.25). Fighter 2 needs a roll of a 13 or better (18ac) to hit Fighter 1. This means he hits about 35% of the time. That puts his avage damage per round at. max damage at 4.2 (12*.35) and avage at 2.8 (8*.35). As you can see from this the person using the sword and shield has a advantage in the fight becouse other other person saciifsed his ac for more damage. Becouse of that he is doing less damage per round on avage then the person who keeped his shield. I will also admit that I did not put feets into this but you can see what I mean. It is not so much that one is better then the other. It is one is better for damage and one is better for defence. What rule are you playing for your group.?
kenicolo 04-19-07, 11:15 AM	I also think that shield are curentsy underpowered. Mostly because to be descent in this style of combat you need to invest MUCH more feats. A Twho handed fighter only need power attack and a str of 13...woo hoo A sword and shield need, Improved shieldbash if he wats to add some damage, agile sield fighter to not sucks at dooing it and all the feats he can find on top of needing to encchant his shield, use combat expertise with fight defensively... Sorry but the protection from a shield in combat is much more than what is given right now. Cause i sacrifice a secondary weapon (1d6 for good light weapon) or i sacrifice +1,5 str damage and a bigger weapon. I believe that shield should equal the use of a weapon but defensively so the idea you suggest sounds good. Gives 1,5 its ac when fighting defensively and double when using total defense. The dex thing is good to so it reflect why a full plte guy rarely carry a shield ans why the leather armored guy has one that work greatly
RobbyPants 04-19-07, 11:32 AM	A) Power Attack trades 2 for 1 with a Two-handed weapon. B) You can apply 1.5 Str to Damage with a Two-handed Weapon. C) The Weapon damage of a Two-handed Weapon is generally greater than that of a One-handed Weapon. Don't forget: D) There are several feats and PrC abilities that can easily give you a 6 to 1 (or higher!) return on your power attack with a two-handed weapon. With that in mind, you may want to create some special feats, to help increase this even further than the 1.5 x Dex bonus that you proposed.
Krusk 04-19-07, 12:01 PM	our groups "fix" was just to increase the AC value from shields by +1 and to make all shields one lump catagory. you either can use them or can't. You see a good bit more people with shields in our games, current favorite is the extreme steel shield.
Dotac 04-19-07, 12:10 PM	Usually, i don't see much point to teching a character for sheilds simply because eventually most fighters get an animated sheild and still fight with a two-handed weapon. :twocents:
Relic 04-22-07, 10:38 AM	I would probably make Light shields grant the 1.5 x Dex bonus. I would make Heavy shields grant 1.5 x Str bonus. That way, both Strength-based and Dexterity-based builds could benefit from the changes to the shield rules. In my games, I increased the base bonus of shields by +1 for Light shields and +2 for Heavy shields. I also apply the Shield bonus to Touch AC.
IronMouse 04-22-07, 11:32 AM	Usually, i don't see much point to teching a character for sheilds simply because eventually most fighters get an animated sheild and still fight with a two-handed weapon. :twocents: Even WotC admitted that animated shields were a mistake. Whenever you want to make sword&board style useful, the first thing you should do is ban this enchantment. I gave my shields an improvement to ac/defense, too, but they also give a bonus to reflex saves (light shield +1, heavy and tower +2), though only against those spells/effects that allow a save for half damage.
Krusk 04-22-07, 12:55 PM	oh, i forgot to mention for ours. we also banned all forms of animated dancing, or similar enhancements. thanks ironmouse for the reminder.
Armendil 04-24-07, 05:43 PM	I don't like the idea of tying the shield bonus to dexterity. I think a character that isn't nimble on his feet ought to be able to get the full benefit of a shield. I'm also not sure that shields are terribly underpowered, especially after they have gained an enhancement bonus. An AC bonus of +6 or +7 makes a character 30-35% less likely to be hit by an attack at the expense or maybe 5-8 points of damage per successfull hit (depending on strength and not including power attack.) At low levels you're trading maybe 3-5 points of damage for a 10% decrease in the likelhood of being hit. Those aren't bad trade-offs, especially at high level. If you are making a power attack, you do want to have a two handed weapon, but power attacks are really only usefull against opponents with low AC. And don't forget that as long as you're not using a light weapon you can always put down the shield and use your weapon two-handed. If you use a buckler, you don't even have to put it down, although you do take a -1 to attack if you don't. Another point about shields: I have always thought the fact that they apply when flat-footed, but not against touch attacks is backwards. It seems to me that if you can't effectively dodge because you are unaware of an attack or restricted in movement, then you probably also can't get your shield up where you need it, but you ought to be able to use that shield against the sorceror's acid arrow (although maybe the shield should take damages from the spell). Anybody see a problem with such a reversal?
Bowmore 04-27-07, 08:47 PM	What I do in my games is give all shields the effects of the feats Shield Specialization and Shield Ward from Player's Handbook II. Put simply, all shields have an additional +1 bonus to AC, and you add the shield's AC bonus to touch AC, as well as to checks made to resist bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, and trips.
Nathreet 04-27-07, 09:59 PM	Mmmm, it is a common myth that sword-and-board is worse. It's kinda like Dennis Rodman: it takes a lot for anything defensive to get noticed. I will use the exact same reasons you gave: A) Power Attack is actually a very, very weak feat. Most people just look at what you get and forget about what you lose: 1 AB per 2 damage. If you take even a brief look at average damage per round, 1 AB is often worth more than 2 damage. At low levels when your damage is low it helps. Sometimes it helps at mid levels even (only against opponents with very low ACs). Even when it does help if you subtract the cost from the benefit, it's not as good as you might think. You usually get way more damage per round from other feats, like weapon focus for example. B) 1 AC for you is the same is -1 AB for your enemy. So often 1 AC is also worth more than 2 damage (but not always, since not all incoming attacks are physical). C) 1 AC is usually worth more than 2 damage. If you don't believe me then give me a THF or TWF combatant using standard starting wealth and I'll bet the same combatant as a SHF (w/ equipment slightly changed to add a shield) will beat him 1-on-1. That is unless your build is convoluted in some way to make SHF suck w/ your build (e.g., a class w/o shield proficiency). Animated shields to allow THF is still a good tactic, btw. TWF usually sucks even more than THF, for similar reasons. Rogues make an exception, but even then SHF is often (but not always) better.
Holy_Beholder 05-03-07, 06:38 PM	Shields do need better defensive abilities, due mainly to damage resistance. IF that was gone, shields would be better.