Post/Author/DateTime	Post
toddfrazie 05-07-07, 04:07 PM	It used to be that a couple metamagic feats were all that could be applied before your casting a level 9 magic missile. With newly introduced abilities like "sudden" and "divine" metamagic. along with "arcane Thesis" and "metamagic Rods" a spell caster can easily kill every enemy with little arcane cost. For example, a level 15 wizard nearly slaying a colossal red dragon in 1 turn without any prior knowledge or preparation for the situation. With his sudden maximized, sudden twinned, metamagical rod quickened Otilukes Freezing sphere, followed by a maximized, sudden empowered Freezing sphere. (Something like that) As reluctant as I am to make suggested changes to the core rules, this is getting a bit out of hand. A player of mine, through reading these forums and his own applications, has come up with countless metamagic manipulations. These combinations of spells and metamagic feats have made extreme results such as 21-27 dexterity damage to all your enemies within 30 feet of each other with no save (11th level caster, I believe) along with countless similarly and even more powerful combo's. After doing some studying into it, I've come up with a possible errata. Making it so that a spell caster can only apply two metamagic feats to a spell at a time. Justification being that once the weave is over manipulated it is stretched too thin. It's sloppy, I know, but I'd really like some feedback or advise on the subject. Possible other means of fixing the problem.
Naderion 05-07-07, 05:18 PM	I think usually you apply the effects of metamagic feats seperately. For Example a maximized and empowered fireball would make 60 dmg (10w6 maximized) + 5d6 dmg (10d6 empowerd) and not 90 dmg. Do it with all these feats and then again take a look, if the combinations you thought of are really that much of an overkill.
Kopana 05-07-07, 08:08 PM	I definitely like this, I'll probably implement it in my campaign, I know I can trust my players, if I just ask them not to do stuff like that they won't, but I'm paranoid so I'll use it anyway :P
toddfrazie 05-07-07, 11:44 PM	Yeah, the Maximize empower combo was already acounted for. It's the Twin, quickened, chain like ones that mess it all up. And I too trust my players, but I think that laying out the rules ahead of time is a nice thing for the players is knowing that these things are out before they design their characters. It's a real kick in the balls for a player, while following all the rules, to be told "too bad, too broken". This is a good means of preventing that. I hope...
Lina_Inverse 05-08-07, 12:09 AM	With newly introduced abilities like "sudden" and "divine" metamagic While divine metamagic is broken with night sticks, sudden magic isn't all that hot being a 1/day ability. Not a big deal in D&D. For example, a level 15 wizard nearly slaying a colossal red dragon in 1 turn without any prior knowledge or preparation for the situation. You played your dragon poorly, all dragon encounters without being of a much lower CR of the party should end in TPKs. Dragons are freaking ridiculous. With his sudden maximized, sudden twinned, metamagical rod quickened Otilukes Freezing sphere, followed by a maximized, sudden empowered Freezing sphere. (Something like that) Damage spells are incredibly weak for most of the game, you should not EVER have problems with them. Possible other means of fixing the problem. Learn to deal with your challenges as GM better. Just as you challenge your players with powerful monsters and epic quests, so to do they challenge you. Becoming more capable at running your monsters is a much better fix than putting a band aid on the metamagic rules. Example, mindblank is an 8th level spell. Scrying is still a valid tactic, are your monsters employing scry, buff, teleport tactics? Almost all monsters are vastly more powerful non-magically than your party, do they use anti-magic fields? Are you makeing sure to include 4 encounters between rests? Casters have the ability to nova throwing everything into one go, If you don't include enough encounters then they will easily dominate which seems to be your problem.
Vaelan 05-08-07, 12:42 AM	Disallow any alterations to metamagic costs.
Optimized_Commoner 05-08-07, 01:01 AM	It's sloppy, I know, but I'd really like some feedback or advise on the subject. Possible other means of fixing the problem. I agree with your analysis of the problem. Your solution works it just lacks elegance. I would personally suggest individual errata to each of the metamagic enhancers (divine, magic item, feat, etc) to prevent overcombination abuse. However until you get a chance to do that (or until I get a chance and post my results) your method works as a stop-gap measure. Though I would personally ammend it to, "you can't have more than one free metamagic effect on a spell". Free, in this case, being something which doesn't modify the level of the spell. After all, if someone is willing to cast magic missile as a ninth level spell, I don't think that's a problem.
toddfrazie 05-08-07, 03:46 AM	To Lina_Inverse: These are not problems for me. This is Preventative mesures do to recent studies. The Dragon incicdent was a kindof random even throwout. Meant to be little more than a muscle flex. I've got my DMing down ('sept the whole dedicating hours upon hours trying to keep up with new rules and feats as my players gain access to more and more, while I am trying to divide my time amungst creative and devising NPC's and worlds for that matter. That's why my players are nice enough to bring this to my attention). What I want to prevent (key word) is the ever-growing power of the spellcaster from comming across game breaking combinations. Setting this restriction may stop all unthought of ubersplosions. I've heard rumors of Polymorph being a completely broken spell. I have yet to have the time to look into it myself under the scope, but I've heard of Efreeti polymorphings and having 3 free wishes for their allies a day. In real game, these things rarely become a problem. But I would do anything to avoid the "Sorry man, we have to fix your character because that combination is not how the creators intended the feat or spell to be used.", chat. To Optimized_commoner: I like your wording. My crew and I have been discussing and came up with something similar, though again, lacking elegance.
Optimized_Commoner 05-08-07, 04:00 AM	I've heard rumors of Polymorph being a completely broken spell. It's not as broken as many people think, but it certainly has its problems. I have yet to have the time to look into it myself under the scope, but I've heard of Efreeti polymorphings and having 3 free wishes for their allies a day. I don't believe that one actually works since Efreeti wishes are spell-like abilities, a lot of the claimed problems with polymorph come down to a mistake with the rules (the Efreeti example) or to an interpretation of the rules that lack common sense (The Balor Vorpal sword mining dilemna). However it is still an extremely powerful ability which has been nerfed and modified several times by errata or new books. I like your wording. Thankyou kindly. Also thankyou for bringing this up. I'm working on my own 4th edition (my joke name for a complete set of house-rules) and it helps to find new things I hadn't considered, such as this.
toddfrazie 05-08-07, 04:10 AM	Here is an example of how damaging spells can escalate to rediculous proportions multiple times a day with the combination of Divine metamagic and other well applied metamagic feats. 15th level caster as an example. Greater Harm: 7th level spell, ranged touch, save for half, 1d12 damage per caster level (max 20d12) divine maximized costing 4 turn attempts (180 damage), divine quickened or twinned costing 5 turnings (assuming maximize must be applied to BOTH twinned spells) and sudden maximized. 1 of many ways to produce the same result of 360 damage, unsavable from a safe distance. This IS NOT game breaking. This is a good aplication of power displayed by a cleric, and uses two automatic metamagics per spell. The Cleric who uses this has 18 turning attempts a day as well as sa few good sudden and standard metamagic feats. And could easily get ahould a metamagic rod or two. Imagine this: chained (effects all enemies within 30 feet of target), maximized, twinned. That's 360 save for half damage well placed to effect a large amount of enemies. This will destroy any party of 20th level party with a lucky initiative roll. and he's still got a quickened whatever to lunge in to finish off who's standing. My proposition is that these abilities get a safety cap at two possible metamagics. or "you can't have more than one free metamagic effect on a spell". Free, in this case, being something which doesn't modify the level of the spell. As Optimized_commoner suggested. When a player begins stacking multiple freebees on a spell, it can come to be that in any situation, the party keeps the spellcaster alive untill his turn when he ends all major battles for which he saves these abilities in within six seconds that they started.
ceiling90 05-08-07, 04:43 AM	The best I can say to deal with casters in that situation is to basically make it that the field of battle messes with magic... like a flickering anti-magic field or just a normal anti-magic field. Sure it bones everyone ultimately because no magic, including spell like abilities work and items loose thier magic enhancements, but it levels the playing the field... and I think spells entering the field also fizzle... so I would probably make really important battles, where that monster caster would probably pull 1 hit kill completely... inadequate. To round out the problems with lack of healing in the field, I would allow alchemical substances to replace potions, albeit at a lower cost and less effect... cause if normal pots were still around those would be almost obsolete.
toddfrazie 05-08-07, 05:41 AM	ceiling90: A fine suggestion. Unfortunately, I avoid, whenever possible, making "Deus Ex Machina" situations. They can take away from the story. Though that may be a good application for an entire magic-faulty campaign. After some more debate and situations listed, we thought of something. Throw out all the other ideas we just gave and replace them with this: A 25% (still in the air) spell failure chance per metamagic feat applied beyond the first, do to the weight that multi-metamagicating applies to the weave and the caster. Adds an interesting level to casting.
Naderion 05-08-07, 08:12 AM	Yeah, the Maximize empower combo was already acounted for. It's the Twin, quickened, chain like ones that mess it all up. I'm not sure, but does Twin Spell double the base spell or the metamagically empowered spell? Taking the empower-maximize rule as reference, I would say the former. So to have a real maximised twin-spell, you would have to aplly twin spell once and maximize spell twice. That's what I was up to with the first posting.
starfire311 05-08-07, 09:53 AM	ceiling90: A fine suggestion. Unfortunately, I avoid, whenever possible, making "Deus Ex Machina" situations. They can take away from the story. Though that may be a good application for an entire magic-faulty campaign. After some more debate and situations listed, we thought of something. Throw out all the other ideas we just gave and replace them with this: A 25% (still in the air) spell failure chance per metamagic feat applied beyond the first, do to the weight that multi-metamagicating applies to the weave and the caster. Adds an interesting level to casting. this is quite rediculous, are you just trying to remove metamagic from the game, or do you actually think that Cold subbed maximized fireball using a 6th level spell slot is broken. You have already stated that you think that what is making them overpowered is all the freebies getting added on, well I think you should work on a way to fix that. Oh noes beware my still silent Detect magic.
Millennium 05-08-07, 10:18 AM	It used to be that a couple metamagic feats were all that could be applied before your casting a level 9 magic missile. With newly introduced abilities like "sudden" and "divine" metamagic. along with "arcane Thesis" and "metamagic Rods" a spell caster can easily kill every enemy with little arcane cost... Then don't use them. See below. As reluctant as I am to make suggested changes to the core rules, this is getting a bit out of hand. All of the things you mentioned above are suggested changes to the core rules. Including them is essentially the same houseruling process that excluding them would be.
Selgard 05-08-07, 10:30 AM	Maybe i'm just slow, but i don't see how this is any different from the various multitudes of Save or Die spells. Oh no, they are doin HP damage. So what? why not just SoD them to death? The way your players are doing it, is to actually expend a Ton of resources (spell slots, feats, $ for rods, etc.). There is a simpler solution. Raise SR. Increase HP. Instead of Neutering your caster and all the hard work they've taken into making a perfectly viable character, just bump up the difficulty of the encounters from behind the scenes. Their twinned maximized empowered swirly casty blaster of doom spell does squat if the mob has a relatively decent SR.
NoldorForce 05-08-07, 11:23 AM	I'm not sure, but does Twin Spell double the base spell or the metamagically empowered spell? Taking the empower-maximize rule as reference, I would say the former. So to have a real maximised twin-spell, you would have to aplly twin spell once and maximize spell twice. That's what I was up to with the first posting.The FAQ implies that metamagic "stacks", so to speak. Empower + Maximize is an exception.If my wizard applies Energy Admixture (Complete Arcane, page 78) and Maximize Spell to the same spell, does he get a spell that deals double its maximized damage (maximum normal damage in two different energy types)? If he also applied the Twin Spell feat (Complete Arcane, page 84) to the same spell would it duplicate the entire effect? Yes and yes. Assuming your character can cast 13th-level spells—the slot required by a 2nd-level spell affected by these metamagic feats—a scorching ray so affected would create two sets of three rays each, with each ray dealing 24 points of fire damage (4d6, maximized) and 24 points of a second energy type (as appropriate for your Energy Substitution feat), for a grand total of 288 points of damage . . . assuming all six rays hit their target. @ OP: It sounds like the problem you're having is not with metamagic itself, but rather with metamagic mitigation. The effective spell level of the stuff you're mentioning is far above the normal casting capabilities of these characters, no? Perhaps a limit on one metamagic effect whose cost is removed is appropriate. Sure, they can apply metamagic in other ways - but then they have to pay the normal costs.
toddfrazie 05-08-07, 04:01 PM	I have GOT to learn how to do the whole "quote" thing on this board. K, I'll give it a shot. It sounds like the problem you're having is not with metamagic itself, but rather with metamagic mitigation. The effective spell level of the stuff you're mentioning is far above the normal casting capabilities of these characters, no? Honestly, I'm not having a problem, I can't stress that enough. It is very easy to, as a DM, make the encounters more difficult, though it may fall into that "deus ex Machina" catagory, I still manage to make it believable. Thanks for that explaination on twin-spell. We had always assumed the opposite. There is a simpler solution. Raise SR. Increase HP. Simple indeed. Or is it? To raise the SR and HP of all monsters on the campaign is giving special tweeking to a single group because of it's capabilities. This equals the adjustment of every single thing they encounter (not simple, or fair). In my opinion, it would be better to put in a simple rule that would not only fix some ubersplosive combonations, but also keep more combinations to be found in the future which would have to be fixed. this is quite rediculous, are you just trying to remove metamagic from the game, or do you actually think that Cold subbed maximized fireball using a 6th level spell slot is broken. You have already stated that you think that what is making them overpowered is all the freebies getting added on, well I think you should work on a way to fix that. Oh noes beware my still silent Detect magic. That's just harsh. I thought it would be a good universal way to make metamagic work safely, and the fighters and less metamagically inclined characters feel as equals to the Meta-mage. Not to mention, It was my players' idea! So a still Silent Detect Magic has a 25% spell failure chance... Works for us, when so does a 6th level spell imore devastating than a meteor swarm has a 75% spell failure chance. Ok, that may be a bit much for the SF chance. But It was a good thought on their part. And with some tweeking, could make every metamagic manipulation all the more exciting in game play.
toddfrazie 05-08-07, 04:11 PM	So I've got the quoting half way figured out. The Metamagic spell failure thing was a suggestion, and it may blow. But hey, it was worth mentioning. Over it, I'd still stick with the "no more than one freebie metamagic added to a spell", implying that applying "sudden" or "divine" or "metamagic rod" things (and whetever others are to come)to a spell is a kind of "swift action" within the casting, meaning only one could be added per spell cast. Furthermore, this may impare adding the listed metas to a quickened spell, but maybe not. Apart from the unfamiliar NAY-sayers, does this sould like a good aplication?
toddfrazie 05-08-07, 07:43 PM	well... So far, after alot of debate, our group has decided to keep the rules as are. Even with ubersplosions, the metacaster is weakened during 90% of the encounters because he holds his power for 1 encounter. If the presented problems continue to manefest, we will consider the suggested Eratta a bit further. as for the Efreeti Polymorph thing, the spell to beware is "shape change" I believe, which permits the use of all spell-like abilities and special qualities. A ninth level spell that allows unlimited use of the wish spell. That probably goes away from it's intended use. I would heavily consider fixing that issue.
Holy_Beholder 05-08-07, 08:30 PM	Their twinned maximized empowered swirly casty blaster of doom spell does squat if the mob has a relatively decent SR. Illusion disguised balors going boom.
Vaelan 05-08-07, 08:50 PM	Oh no, they are doin HP damage. So what? why not just SoD them to death? Because HP damage isn't Fortitude negates. There is a simpler solution. Raise SR. SR doesn't apply to the best damaging spells. Increase HP. This change has repercussions beyond the matter at hand. That's bad, in case you didn't know. The problem here is quite clearly the things that allow free metamagic. Disallow them and you're done.
toddfrazie 05-08-07, 09:08 PM	thanks for clearing that damage spell stuff up for me, Vaelan. Disallowing free metamagics is a very bold move, but I think it takes far too much away from a caster's feat pool. It's the most recent books comming out that seems to be neglecting the Metas and spells available in the 30+ official, up to date guides before them.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-08-07, 09:48 PM	I couldn't help but have one thought when reading the initial post: > without any prior knowledge or preparation for the situation. > > With his... ...Otilukes Freezing sphere, In my experience, no one who knows what they're doing will be carrying that spell around *unless* they're preparing for an appropriate situation.
toddfrazie 05-08-07, 09:54 PM	In my experience, no one who knows what they're doing will be carrying that spell around *unless* they're preparing for an appropriate situation. actually, he's one of those, "random damaging spells on my list" kinda wizards. It could actually be the case that he knows very little of what he is doing :D
tafkamhokie 05-08-07, 09:54 PM	The house rules I use for keeping metamagic under control: #1: prestige classes or feats that "cheapen" the cost generally do not exist. If a metamagic calls for a four level boost, then that is what you have to pay. #2: using a metamagic rod increases the casting time of a spell just like using a metamagic feat does for a sorcerer #3: you cannot sudden metamagic any spell where the non-suddened version would give you a higher level spell than you can normally cast; e.g. maximized fireball is a 6th level spell, so you cannot sudden maximize a fireball unless you are an 11th level wizard or 12th level sorcerer. The party still uses metamagic regulary, but it is hardly abused. Basically (and like most everything else) the core rules on metamagic are quite balanced and reasonable. The more sourcebooks you add to your game, the more out of whack things get. By cherry picking this spell from this book, that feat from that book, the other prestige class from the other book, etc. you get some super-sick combinations in a hurry. Of course, the other option is to leave things as is and just make sure the bad guys are playing by the same rules. Either a ring of spell turning or an opposing wizard with all the same tricks the party has should do the trick.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-08-07, 09:57 PM	> actually, he's one of those, "random damaging spells on my list" kinda wizards. > It could actually be the case that he knows very little of what he is doing In that case, count him as lucky rather than overpowered. ;) OFS is one of those spells which is good in the right circumstance - "Gee, a cold-vulnerable creature that I can nail with it!" - but not particularly impressive otherwise.
toddfrazie 05-08-07, 10:21 PM	#3: you cannot sudden metamagic any spell where the non-suddened version would give you a higher level spell than you can normally cast; e.g. maximized fireball is a 6th level spell, so you cannot sudden maximize a fireball unless you are an 11th level wizard or 12th level sorcerer. Hmm... This one is interesting. Any other views on it?
Lina_Inverse 05-08-07, 11:34 PM	Here is an example of how damaging spells can escalate to rediculous proportions multiple times a day with the combination of Divine metamagic and other well applied metamagic feats. Blah blah blah blah 6th level spell, 3 feats, and 9 turning attempts. Can't reduce target below 1 hp. You've blown your turning attempts, bought 3 terrible feats and once a day you can do absolutely nothing. Your ignoreing the following. ONCE A DAY. There are FOUR encounters per day in D&D. Hmm... This one is interesting. Any other views on it? Sudden metamagics are bad feats. Not only would you be nerfing a worthless feat for no good reason, you would be defeating the entire point of the feat.
toddfrazie 05-08-07, 11:50 PM	Your ignoreing the following. ONCE A DAY. There are FOUR encounters per day in D&D. I don't know. there are four encounters a day if your a Communist DM. I prefer to play in the realm of story with a good bit of realism involved. I can't always pump out 4 practical encounters a day, definately not 4 challenging ones a day. Despite the "I'm absolutely right, I'm talking to idiots" aproach your bringing to this thread, you have a point. 1/day is something that should be brought into account when considering these things. From my experience, the caster's use their multiple other spells/wands/abilities untill they find a real threat. Then BOOM_KABAM_SHAPOW everything is obliterated and the caster still has several spells to fling at the enemies. By no means is "sudden" a wasted feat, 1/day can save the day every day.
Vaelan 05-09-07, 12:19 AM	Disallowing free metamagics is a very bold move, but I think it takes far too much away from a caster's feat pool. Metamagic, Item Creation, Spell Focus/Penetration, Extra Spell or Spell Mastery, and whatever junk feats they have to take for their free lunch Prestige Classes. I think they have plenty, myself. Besides, spellcasters have never been defined by their feats as heavily as other archetypes.
Naderion 05-09-07, 06:09 AM	#3: you cannot sudden metamagic any spell where the non-suddened version would give you a higher level spell than you can normally cast; e.g. maximized fireball is a 6th level spell, so you cannot sudden maximize a fireball unless you are an 11th level wizard or 12th level sorcerer. Hmm... This one is interesting. Any other views on it? Of course not. Using Sudden Metamagic without using the normal Metamagic penalties would be completely broken. And when you than also allow metamagic effects to stack, then I'm in no way surprised the effects are completely devestating. Could you name a complete spell/metamagic combination, that you think is too powerfull? There were some hints before, but they all ended mid-description.
Optimized_Commoner 05-09-07, 09:41 AM	I've got to get some sleep so I'll wait till tommorow to respond in detail to this thread. I just wanted to quickly add, that I think a 25% spell-failure chance per metamagic feat seems a little harsh. I'm not a fan of spell-failure chances at all but it seems cruel to hit something with a 50% chance of failure when they're wagering three metamagic feats on the spell. One last thing, before I pass out. Have you also considered circle magic (red wizard of thay prestige class, DMG 3.5). This is another classic metamagic situation, in this case it's one of the few benefits to this class.
starfire311 05-09-07, 09:55 AM	Hmm... This one is interesting. Any other views on it? I like the rule and I have used it, and will probably use it in the future, that was my "fix" for divine metamagic BTW. Basically it allows you to use your lower level spells to graeter effect, but does not let you exceed teh expected effectiveness of your level. Yes that is a huge nerf to divine metamagic, that was needed, but I also nerfed sudden metamagic, but I gave it a boost of being usable 3/day as compensation for the nerf.
starfire311 05-09-07, 10:06 AM	Could you name a complete spell/metamagic combination, that you think is too powerfull? There were some hints before, but they all ended mid-description. Persistant Divine Power Persistant Wraith strike(this one is hard to pull off, but I did in a high level game, and it get very stupid very quickly) Persistant Divine Favor
toddfrazie 05-09-07, 02:50 PM	Enervate: 3rd level spell that gives 1d4 negative levels. Twin, maximized, chain. Or Quicken, Maximized, chained. (Even without the Chain effect) It, at very low cost, kills anybody of of 15 level or lower with a ranged touch attack. Incredibly weakening any body of higher level. Another brought to my attention was the spell that I cannot remember the name of. It is someting like this: 6th level spell. 3d6 dexterity damage. No save. Applying a maximize under normal standardds would make it a ninth level spell. That is about right. 18 Dex damage equals lotsa Coup De Grace, unless the enemy has someone there to defend it. Not a big deal, but it at least puts somebody out of the battle. Doubling this somehow, or Making it effect multiple targets will also destroy an opposing party with ease. Now if you apply abilities such as Arcane Thesis (-1 to all metamagic costs on chosen spell) Or take the prestige class that ends up doing the same to ALL spells (again, can't remember the name), you end up with enhancements that can be stacked for next to nothing. My roomate made a Wizard on his computer for a test of these powers. The wizard he made could do these and other very powerful things multiple (lotsa) times per day. The more we look, the more we find. That is why we discussed the possibility of an Eratta to take care of all the possible ubersplosion combos ahead of time by putting a practical, logical limit to metamagic. We've found several possibilies (thanks to this bored) and decided to keep them on hold until further evidence of broken combos arise.
Vaelan 05-09-07, 10:49 PM	6th level spell. 3d6 dexterity damage. No save. That's Shivering Touch, and it isn't sixth-level, it is third-level spell. Now if you apply abilities such as Arcane Thesis (-1 to all metamagic costs on chosen spell) Arcane Thesis has been clarified. It only grants -1 at the end of all cost applications, not -1 to all costs.
toddfrazie 05-10-07, 04:05 AM	Interesting... Thanks for that clarification. We were wondering about that. Shaun has often complained that the dex draining spell, shivering touch, should not exist.
Rakor 05-13-07, 10:36 PM	My thoughts were in the same place as Lina Inverse's all of these combinations require a huge influx of resources. I had a friend who was all hot and bothered over Divine Metamagic:Persistent Spell. Wanted to use it as a cleric in my game. I told him he was crazy. 4 feats to be able give a single spell a duration of 24 hours? I just shrugged and made a note to occasionally have it dispelled. I'm sure there are ways to gain more then you spend though. A suggestion for running multiple encounters in a day that I really like is to have the enemy send a diversion at the party. Summoned monsters or illusions or just mook guards. Cleric wrecks the "Balors" *wink wink* with harms. Finds out they are illusions and then the evil wizard attacks.
Vaelan 05-14-07, 02:28 AM	I just shrugged and made a note to occasionally have it dispelled. Then you have the Cleric spending another feat to burn a turn attempt to get +4 to their caster level and using Prayer Beads to get another +4. An epic spellcasters keep happening upon the party just to dispel the persistant buff every so often is a bit of a stretch.
Optimized_Commoner 05-14-07, 09:46 AM	An epic spellcasters keep happening upon the party just to dispel the persistant buff every so often is a bit of a stretch. Admit it. If you were an epic spellcaster, wouldn't you have fun running around dispelling the persistant buffs on arrogant clerics? I know I would.
Vaelan 05-14-07, 10:38 AM	Admit it. If you were an epic spellcaster, wouldn't you have fun running around dispelling the persistant buffs on arrogant clerics? I know I would. Nah. I would be busy amusing myself with supremely ridiculous epic spells, such as Transmute Tavern to Jello. Plus, I would feel the need to shout "Where's your god now?", and with my DM, it wouldn't end well. I could get away with it at level 5, but at level 25, you're a little too high up on the deific radar to go around heckling Clerics.
UCsimplyme 05-16-07, 09:08 AM	Here is an example of how damaging spells can escalate to rediculous proportions multiple times a day with the combination of Divine metamagic and other well applied metamagic feats. 15th level caster as an example. Greater Harm: 7th level spell, ranged touch, save for half, 1d12 damage per caster level (max 20d12) divine maximized costing 4 turn attempts (180 damage), divine quickened or twinned costing 5 turnings (assuming maximize must be applied to BOTH twinned spells) and sudden maximized. 1 of many ways to produce the same result of 360 damage, unsavable from a safe distance. This IS NOT game breaking. This is a good aplication of power displayed by a cleric, and uses two automatic metamagics per spell. The Cleric who uses this has 18 turning attempts a day as well as sa few good sudden and standard metamagic feats. And could easily get ahould a metamagic rod or two. Imagine this: chained (effects all enemies within 30 feet of target), maximized, twinned. That's 360 save for half damage well placed to effect a large amount of enemies. This will destroy any party of 20th level party with a lucky initiative roll. and he's still got a quickened whatever to lunge in to finish off who's standing. My proposition is that these abilities get a safety cap at two possible metamagics. or "you can't have more than one free metamagic effect on a spell". Free, in this case, being something which doesn't modify the level of the spell. As Optimized_commoner suggested. When a player begins stacking multiple freebees on a spell, it can come to be that in any situation, the party keeps the spellcaster alive untill his turn when he ends all major battles for which he saves these abilities in within six seconds that they started. Man, where is this cleric getting all of these feats? Maximize spell Divine Metamagic (Maximize) Twin Spell Divine Metamagic (Twin Spell) Heavy feat investment for this trick. 18 turn attempts a day? How many times has he taken extra turning?
Selgard 05-16-07, 09:57 AM	he's using a rod for one of the feats, and nightsticks for the extra turning attempts. It's not divine metamagic that's broken.. it's the application of that spell, with the addition of items that give near unlimited turning attempts. (unlimited via no wear slot, and their cheapness).
Dungeonrenter 05-16-07, 10:11 AM	I too have a problem with meta magic. I may have to crack down a little bit. I play with recharge magic and I don't even come close to 4 enounters a day. I am moving toward having meta magic feats be usable only only 3 times a day. I have always had a problem with meta magic because the ones that are fun (twin, maximize, chain, empower) cost to many spells levels to be desired in normal dnd. Most people woudl rather just have the higher level damage spell. I would like some way of allowing the use of these abilties, however as anybody who has tried to unattach some of the spell level requirements knows that maximize makes enounters very simple. What are some things other people are doing for meta magic? Like I said I am moving to 3/day with 1 more a day for each addiontal time you take the feat.
Midrealm_DM 05-16-07, 01:44 PM	divine maximized costing 4 turn attempts (180 damage), divine quickened or twinned costing 5 turnings (assuming maximize must be applied to BOTH twinned spells) and sudden maximized. Well this would take at least 6 feats to pull off Maximize, Quicken Spell, Twin Spell, Divine Maximize [4 turn attempts], Divine Quicken [5 turn attempts], Divine Twin [5 turn attempts] ... and 14 turn attempts Which probably means another Feat to get that many turn attempts. But adside from that... I think it is an official ruling that you can't Metamagic a spell to a higher level than you could cast (even through 'free' aplications such as divine metamagic). But I could be wrong. The above would modify the spell to +11 of its spell level. And the player would have to have used almost all of there feats just to get this one trick (A helluva trick though) Personally I'd have a smart enemy throw up an illusion of something, let them blast the bejezus out of it, then (having interacted with it) get their saves to notice it was an illusion. A bit late now that they've blown their big bang. Also: Anything the player's can do.. the NPCs can. Have an enemy use the same tactic on them. If they complain that it is unfair, simply point out it is nothing they haven't done before. My players often think twice before abusing rules because of my habit of stealing their tactics. I never bring it back on them for using it once, but if it becomes a habit.... Just my $0.02
starfire311 05-16-07, 02:17 PM	But adside from that... I think it is an official ruling that you can't Metamagic a spell to a higher level than you could cast (even through 'free' aplications such as divine metamagic). But I could be wrong. and you are wrong, but no big deal, everything else you posted is still quite applicable.
Midrealm_DM 05-18-07, 06:16 PM	he's using a rod for one of the feats, and nightsticks for the extra turning attempts. It's not divine metamagic that's broken.. it's the application of that spell, with the addition of items that give near unlimited turning attempts. (unlimited via no wear slot, and their cheapness). I don't recall seeing anything in the description of Nightsticks saying the effects stack. I am going by an axiom told to me by a WotC representative when I asked if a spell could do a particular effect. To paraphrase... "If the description doesn't say it can... assume it can't" Which means you could have 100 nightsticks, and still get only 4 extra turning attempts per day. At least that is the way I would play it. This doesn't prevent your player from going all uber-mage on you, but it does mean he is only doing it once.
Midrealm_DM 05-18-07, 06:18 PM	II play with recharge magic and I don't even come close to 4 enounters a day. I am moving toward having meta magic feats be usable only only 3 times a day. Forgive my ignorance - what is 'recharge magic'? I have always had a problem with meta magic because the ones that are fun (twin, maximize, chain, empower) cost to many spells levels to be desired in normal dnd. Most people woudl rather just have the higher level damage spell. So are you looking to make the feats -more- accessable/useable?
Vaelan 05-18-07, 11:06 PM	Forgive my ignorance - what is 'recharge magic'? Recharge Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm). So are you looking to make the feats -more- accessable/useable? I got the idea that he wants them to be accessable and usable, but within reason.
Nathreet 05-19-07, 01:21 PM	It used to be that a couple metamagic feats were all that could be applied before your casting a level 9 magic missile. With newly introduced abilities like "sudden" and "divine" metamagic. along with "arcane Thesis" and "metamagic Rods" a spell caster can easily kill every enemy with little arcane cost. For example, a level 15 wizard nearly slaying a colossal red dragon in 1 turn without any prior knowledge or preparation for the situation. With his sudden maximized, sudden twinned, metamagical rod quickened Otilukes Freezing sphere, followed by a maximized, sudden empowered Freezing sphere. (Something like that) As reluctant as I am to make suggested changes to the core rules, this is getting a bit out of hand. A player of mine, through reading these forums and his own applications, has come up with countless metamagic manipulations. These combinations of spells and metamagic feats have made extreme results such as 21-27 dexterity damage to all your enemies within 30 feet of each other with no save (11th level caster, I believe) along with countless similarly and even more powerful combo's. After doing some studying into it, I've come up with a possible errata. Making it so that a spell caster can only apply two metamagic feats to a spell at a time. Justification being that once the weave is over manipulated it is stretched too thin. It's sloppy, I know, but I'd really like some feedback or advise on the subject. Possible other means of fixing the problem. First of all, check the rules carefully. Metamagic rods have a level limit, and you apply other metamagic feats (and increase the spell level), before applying the metamagic rod. So the rod is automatically out for most cheese. Another person mentioned use per day limitations make it not so bad, etc. Even with non-core sources, the reason for abuse is often the player (intentionally or unintentionally), not the book. Second, the DM has every right to look over non-core items before approving them. Meta-magic isn't the only thing that could become problematic. And, using core only, I don't see how anything could lead to serious abuse. If it does, look back at first paragraph above. Arcane thesis isn't core. Divine metamagic isn't core. Sudden metamagic isn't core. Twin spell isn't core.
Vaelan 05-19-07, 03:39 PM	First of all, check the rules carefully. Metamagic rods have a level limit, and you apply other metamagic feats (and increase the spell level), before applying the metamagic rod. So the rod is automatically out for most cheese. Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. And here you are, admonishing people to check the rules carefully... ;)
Merestil Haye 05-19-07, 05:24 PM	Enervate: 3rd level spell that gives 1d4 negative levels. Twin, maximized, chain. Or Quicken, Maximized, chained.You do know you cannot Chain Enervate? it's a ray, and therefore not targeted (within the meaning of the word as used in spell descriptions). Chain Spell can only be applied to a spell with a single target. It may well be arguable that metamagic rods work on the level of the spell slot used to prepare or cast the spell - just as a Pearl of Power does. However, this isn't terribly useful if the spell was prepared without any metamagic, and multiple metamagic effects are applied at once. Remember that rods are limited to one per spell. I think it reasonable to suggest that other methods of applying metamagic on the fly also face that restriction (although I generally allow one of each).
Vaelan 05-19-07, 07:22 PM	It may well be arguable that metamagic rods work on the level of the spell slot used to prepare or cast the spell - just as a Pearl of Power does. What leads you to believe that a Pearl of Power works on the level of the spell slot used to prepare the spell? That isn't what the description says.