Buying off ECL [Archive] - Wizards Community

Buying off ECL [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hot Rod
02-21-04, 10:48 AM I was wondering if anyone could summarize the rules for buying off ECL in UA. Does this look like it would be compatible with the 'racial classes' on the WotC web page? (i.e. a drow that takes 0-drow till 6th, takes drow(1), buys off the +1 for the drow level next, then repeats for drow(2) at 12th.)
Hot Rod
02-23-04, 05:52 AM No-one?
mhacdebhandia
02-23-04, 06:32 AM I suppose you could, yes.
askala3
02-23-04, 04:17 PM probally.

as DM, I'd prevent them from lowering the ECL coming from an unfinished racial class though. I would allow them to immediately buy off the ECL when done, provided they have enough class levels to do so.

For your level 6 example... the char would have to get two levels in the drow progression, end being level 6 w/ +2 LA. He could spend the exp to drop one from his LA as soon as he finished. He'd then need to get 3 more levels to drop the other +1 LA
A level 9 char doing the same would be able to drop both at once.

It probally is balanced, since the char isn't gaining BAB or saves while the rest of the party gains two or three levels.
slwoyach
02-23-04, 04:40 PM I dont find it balanced at all. A character can now spend experience to get rid of an ECL. In effect he's paying a set number of experience points to play a more powerful race. That's already built into the ECL though. Under the rules in Unearthed Arcana, a player can buy off ECL for a few thousand experience. By mid levels they are on the same level as a core race despite being far more powerful. All that rule does is encourage power gaming and punish people who want to play core races.
Keldorn2198
02-23-04, 05:04 PM Originally posted by slwoyach
I dont find it balanced at all. A character can now spend experience to get rid of an ECL. In effect he's paying a set number of experience points to play a more powerful race. That's already built into the ECL though. Under the rules in Unearthed Arcana, a player can buy off ECL for a few thousand experience. By mid levels they are on the same level as a core race despite being far more powerful. All that rule does is encourage power gaming and punish people who want to play core races.

Funny you should bring up punishing people who play core races. MOST LAs are deliberately inflated in order to punish anyone who doesn't play core races, and are claculated with the optimal class/race combination in mind. The rule for buying off ECL is a way to counter this VERY unfair practice. Also, anyone who regularly plays to epic levels will quickly realize that a LA over +2 will put you well behind everyone else in power level. Finally, it is a way to reward players who want to run unusual and suboptimal race/class combinations for ROLEPLAYING reasons(i.e. 1/2 fiend paladin, ogre rogue, drow barabarian).
Myztek
02-23-04, 06:55 PM Not to be pessimistic, but this is just another broken band-aid on the :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored: sore that is the rules for LAs/ECLs.

Those rules don't work. PCs made with any race with an ECL/LA that is higher thasn +1 or +2 begin play as too strong in some ways and too weak in others. While alive, they tend to dominate the combats. When things get topugh, they tend to get killed too easily. A DM that makes a battle too tough because of the anticiapted power of the LA/ECL PC might find himself blundering into a TPK (total party kill) when the LA/ECL PC goes down too quickly.

Farther down the road, those advantages tend to fade in usefulness. Thus the UA rules. OTOH, the disadvantages tend to fade less. Even though you're behind other PCs in HPs by a smaller percentage of difference, that change in hit points of 20 or so hps can make a huge difference in practical play at high levels.

Some abilities were not meant to be in the hands of PCs. Any system that tries to pass along those benefits is going to fail in balancing the party. If you want my advice: Allow an ECL/LA PC only in a game where they could have used the UA rules to completely buy off their LA. If they could have done that, allow the PC with no LA. They may have a few minor extra abilities that other PCs do not have, but at that level, it won't really matter.

Edit: I have no idea what I typed that was censored ... I think I said something an infected sore ... weird.
slwoyach
02-23-04, 08:54 PM I have to disagree about ECLs being unfair to the non-standard races. I've seen many of them played in campaigns I play in (though not run) and they dominate the game. The only exception to this was an ill-fated drow sorcerer in a 3rd level game. But having seen an ogre in action, the ecls aren't enough. So you give up 2 levels and have to take 4 humanoid levels. Ogres get a +10 to strength. Where a 10th level human fighter with maxed out strength wielding a greatsword does 2d6+9 points of damage with a +16 to hit, the ogre does 2d8+17 with a +17 to hit. The fighter has 2 more hit die (12 hp), but the ogre's con bonus gives him an additional 3 hp per level (24 hp). The human fighter is one level away from an extra attack (at a +7 to hit) but the ogre has 10' reach and gets an extra attack of opportunity whenever a medium opponent closes with him, at a +18 to hit. Then you've got all of the bonuses to being large. +4 to bullrush, overun, and grapple. I made a reaping mauler in one campaign and was overshadowed by the ogre. The reaping mauler had every bonus you can get to grapple, tho ogre was just an ogre. An ogre with improved grapple gets a +25 to grapple checks at 10th level. If the ogre can make a touch attack the combat is over. The last thing ogre pcs need is the ability to buy off their only hinderance for a few thousand xp.
Willie the Duck
02-23-04, 09:04 PM slwoyach, I think most people have not had the same experience (for instance, power attacking with your higher bab gives the fighter a damage edge over the ogre). Most people have found that most monsters are built deliberately underpowered for their ECL.

That said, this system was designed to address the primary flaw of the ECL system: an LA penalizes you more at higher levels (when that one "lost" level costs tens of thousands of xps), where the benifits have little effect, then at low levels (when it only costs a few thousand xp), where the benifits actually have some effect. It doesn't do it well, but it does do it.

This is by no means a cheap and easy way to get rid of your LA, it is virtually impossible for creatures with lots of monster hd (in other words, a drow could do it easily, a minotaur cannot), and seriously favors those with an LA of +2 or less.

Is it unbalanced compared to the standard rules? of course, it was designed to make playing monsters more palitable. Is it game changing, turning regular combos into broken ones? not really.
Zaebos
02-23-04, 10:32 PM Coupled with Savage Species, playing races of non PH origin and using the BUY OFF ECL variant, I can see exactly why the variant was included.

Of course to buy off ecl you must first meet specific requirements, and you must do it immideatly upon meeting those requirements, so again, the 'monster' class takes another hit early on, where he falls another level below the party.

I can see how this balances out in mid to high level campaigns and virtually has no bearing on epic characters.

I for one don't see a problem with it, and it will make playing non-standard races at my table more common.
Hot Rod
02-24-04, 12:35 AM Thanks for the replies.

I've been planning to start a very non-standard campaign (humans/humanoids are a minority :behold: ) and was looking at giving virtual levels to PCs to use toward LA, I think this will work much better. (Especially as I want to start them at 1st level, or as close to that as possible.)

Most of the games I've been in have been +0 LA races only (players choice, not vampaign rule). The LA hit is just too nasty at early levels (Drow Sorc with 1D4 HP at Level 3), and nearly worthless at later levels (How useful is darkness 3/day at Lv12?) I'm still waiting on my copy of UA, but this looks promising. :)
Greyman
02-24-04, 03:48 AM Hot Rod, consider using Savage Progressions: Level-Adjusted Races (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) in conjunction with reducing LA. Using Sean's Template Class rules, your Drow Sorcerer can delay taking the two effective levels in favour of sorcerer to beef up her HD then, after finally completing the Racial class, she can start slowly buying off the LA.

~~

Though I'm wondering what happens to the cost of buying off ECL if, after you've started, your character contracts lycanthropy for a further +2LA.
Qflash
03-03-04, 10:30 AM what about a shade
I have 12 levels spent
4 for shade and 8 for others!
when can i start getting this ecl reduction!
please help, my character is starting to become useless!
Velderan
03-03-04, 02:06 PM I thought long and hard about incorporating the rules to buy off Level adjustment into my current D20 modern campaign (we're starting D&D soon), and I had to decide against it. While the system is alright for anyone with a level adjustment of more than 2, I found the exp costs for lower level adjustments to be a little too cheap. If you're an aasimar, for example, you're effectively paying 4000 xp for 2 stat bonuses and all sorts of resistances. The simple solution, of course, is just to make the payoff take place at a higher level, which will be more expensive, and prevent low-level powerhouses.

I haven't particularly found that playing monsters with level adjustments overpower characters, because I always allow moderate level adjustments as long as HD dont go over the other players' levels. Its great to start a campaign at level 1, with drow fighting alongside humans....I've never heard "am I gonna level soon???" so many times in my life. Playing monsters CAN overpower characters at mid levels, but I think thats counteracted by how difficult it can be to GET to mid levels. What really ruins a char is having a level adjustment at high levels, which is why the buying off ECL system was created, anyway.

That being said, I dont know how much roleplaying is involved in playing something whacky like a Minotaur or an Ogre Rogue. Its been my experience that the novelty of playing a monster wears off, a couple of sessions in, and the Joke of "hey, I'm an Ogre rogue" gets old. Then people are left with boring, one sided characters, that are hard to give any complexity to. I much prefer my players to be something more humanoid like an elf, so they can develop their personality.

People are too worried about balance anyway. Dont tell me a Wiz/Sorc is ever balanced with the other classes, and it shouldn't be. Besides, a good character isn't a powerful/min-maxed character, or a character whose power is balanced with their team, its a character that is interesting. I've played weak characters, just for the sake of being interesting, and they stand out in my mind more than any powerhouses I've min/maxed.
Qflash
03-04-04, 09:04 AM still need help figuring out a +4 ecl shade
Salla
03-04-04, 09:41 AM As an important note, I don't think you can buy off racial levels (as in the Paragon classes) or monstrous humanoid hit-dice. Only the straight Level Adjustment. For example, a Minotaur has ( ... $*@( it, where's my book?) Uh, okay, I'm going to make up numbers that I hope are close.

A minotaur has 8 monster Hit Dice AND an ECL Adjustment of (four?). You can buy off the +4 ECL adjustment, but not the monster Hit Dice. If you're playing an Elf and pick up a couple levels of Elf Paragon, you can't buy those back later.
Krelios
03-04-04, 11:46 AM The buying off ECL is great for 3 or less LA. At level 20 an 18th level Drow is not the equivalent of a 20th level anything else so their LA should go away, this gives mechanics that balance that change. It's wonderful and it works great.

Dont tell me a Wiz/Sorc is ever balanced with the other classes, and it shouldn't be. It is, and it should be. Lots of low-level spells won't do you a whole lot of good at lvl 20, especially since a 10 Wiz/10 Sor has a caster lvl of 10 to beat those high CRs....
Hygric
03-04-04, 07:09 PM Interestingly enough, I was just bashing around a house rule to replace ECL with an XP deficit that would have equaled the cost in XP to create unslotted magic items that grant the abilities that a critter possesses.

Why? In my campaigns, I have seen LA characters go from okay to crud in the space of party level 10 to 15. The higher the LA, the quicker they fall behind at higher levels. So I would say (and this is without seeing this new system in action yet) that it should work well.

And needless to say, I have stopped working on my house rule and intend to go with this cleaner and (in some ways) more elegant system.
Hygric
03-04-04, 07:16 PM Originally posted by Qflash
what about a shade
I have 12 levels spent
4 for shade and 8 for others!
when can i start getting this ecl reduction!
please help, my character is starting to become useless!

As for your shade, you will have to wait another 4 levels (total character level 16th, 12 class levels and 4 ECL) before you can buy of 1 point of ECL for a cost of 15,000 XP. If you want to know the rest of the progression, go read the book, the maths 'aint to hard if I can do it.

Do you happen to be a spell-caster? Is that why you are becomming useless? If so, you have just stumbled across one of the prime rules of LA characters: "Thou shalt not excel as a pure caster."
Qflash
03-05-04, 01:20 PM No, i'm a ninja shade and still very effective. But i originally used a +2 ecl and then we found out it was +4ecl, which changed by character alot...really hurts right now. i'm 8th level and my group is 12th, and we are in the middle of a desert right now....so sun is always round the corner...tough to get into the shadows around here.
so at 6th level and every 3rd level after?
wonder if the DM will allow me to start at 12th level ecl. instead of 16?
DrKultra
03-05-04, 10:25 PM Math for buying off ECL

(Current LA)(3) = Level you can buy it off.

When using a LA higher than +1, use the next formula:

(LA)(3) = Level
Level + (LA-1)(3) = New Level

Repeat till your LA = 0

For quick understanding of this, check the next table.

(1)(3) = 3rd Level
(2)(3) = 6th Level, then 9th level
(3)(3) = 9th level, then 15th Level, then 18th level
(4)(3) = 12th level, then 21th level, then 27th level, then 30th level.
Hygric
03-06-04, 08:25 AM Note as well that DrKultra lists the level as class level, NOT your ecl.
God of Slivers
04-03-04, 06:43 PM If those are HD instead of ECL then that means that only +1 or +2 LA can be bought of pre epic, and that sounds rather limiting.
ShadowRanger
04-04-04, 08:05 AM those are hit dice and LA +3 can be bought off pre-epic
God of Slivers
04-04-04, 11:47 AM Oops, my mistake.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hot Rod 02-21-04, 10:48 AM	I was wondering if anyone could summarize the rules for buying off ECL in UA. Does this look like it would be compatible with the 'racial classes' on the WotC web page? (i.e. a drow that takes 0-drow till 6th, takes drow(1), buys off the +1 for the drow level next, then repeats for drow(2) at 12th.)
Hot Rod 02-23-04, 05:52 AM	No-one?
mhacdebhandia 02-23-04, 06:32 AM	I suppose you could, yes.
askala3 02-23-04, 04:17 PM	probally. as DM, I'd prevent them from lowering the ECL coming from an unfinished racial class though. I would allow them to immediately buy off the ECL when done, provided they have enough class levels to do so. For your level 6 example... the char would have to get two levels in the drow progression, end being level 6 w/ +2 LA. He could spend the exp to drop one from his LA as soon as he finished. He'd then need to get 3 more levels to drop the other +1 LA A level 9 char doing the same would be able to drop both at once. It probally is balanced, since the char isn't gaining BAB or saves while the rest of the party gains two or three levels.
slwoyach 02-23-04, 04:40 PM	I dont find it balanced at all. A character can now spend experience to get rid of an ECL. In effect he's paying a set number of experience points to play a more powerful race. That's already built into the ECL though. Under the rules in Unearthed Arcana, a player can buy off ECL for a few thousand experience. By mid levels they are on the same level as a core race despite being far more powerful. All that rule does is encourage power gaming and punish people who want to play core races.
Keldorn2198 02-23-04, 05:04 PM	Originally posted by slwoyach I dont find it balanced at all. A character can now spend experience to get rid of an ECL. In effect he's paying a set number of experience points to play a more powerful race. That's already built into the ECL though. Under the rules in Unearthed Arcana, a player can buy off ECL for a few thousand experience. By mid levels they are on the same level as a core race despite being far more powerful. All that rule does is encourage power gaming and punish people who want to play core races. Funny you should bring up punishing people who play core races. MOST LAs are deliberately inflated in order to punish anyone who doesn't play core races, and are claculated with the optimal class/race combination in mind. The rule for buying off ECL is a way to counter this VERY unfair practice. Also, anyone who regularly plays to epic levels will quickly realize that a LA over +2 will put you well behind everyone else in power level. Finally, it is a way to reward players who want to run unusual and suboptimal race/class combinations for ROLEPLAYING reasons(i.e. 1/2 fiend paladin, ogre rogue, drow barabarian).
Myztek 02-23-04, 06:55 PM	Not to be pessimistic, but this is just another broken band-aid on the :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored: sore that is the rules for LAs/ECLs. Those rules don't work. PCs made with any race with an ECL/LA that is higher thasn +1 or +2 begin play as too strong in some ways and too weak in others. While alive, they tend to dominate the combats. When things get topugh, they tend to get killed too easily. A DM that makes a battle too tough because of the anticiapted power of the LA/ECL PC might find himself blundering into a TPK (total party kill) when the LA/ECL PC goes down too quickly. Farther down the road, those advantages tend to fade in usefulness. Thus the UA rules. OTOH, the disadvantages tend to fade less. Even though you're behind other PCs in HPs by a smaller percentage of difference, that change in hit points of 20 or so hps can make a huge difference in practical play at high levels. Some abilities were not meant to be in the hands of PCs. Any system that tries to pass along those benefits is going to fail in balancing the party. If you want my advice: Allow an ECL/LA PC only in a game where they could have used the UA rules to completely buy off their LA. If they could have done that, allow the PC with no LA. They may have a few minor extra abilities that other PCs do not have, but at that level, it won't really matter. Edit: I have no idea what I typed that was censored ... I think I said something an infected sore ... weird.
slwoyach 02-23-04, 08:54 PM	I have to disagree about ECLs being unfair to the non-standard races. I've seen many of them played in campaigns I play in (though not run) and they dominate the game. The only exception to this was an ill-fated drow sorcerer in a 3rd level game. But having seen an ogre in action, the ecls aren't enough. So you give up 2 levels and have to take 4 humanoid levels. Ogres get a +10 to strength. Where a 10th level human fighter with maxed out strength wielding a greatsword does 2d6+9 points of damage with a +16 to hit, the ogre does 2d8+17 with a +17 to hit. The fighter has 2 more hit die (12 hp), but the ogre's con bonus gives him an additional 3 hp per level (24 hp). The human fighter is one level away from an extra attack (at a +7 to hit) but the ogre has 10' reach and gets an extra attack of opportunity whenever a medium opponent closes with him, at a +18 to hit. Then you've got all of the bonuses to being large. +4 to bullrush, overun, and grapple. I made a reaping mauler in one campaign and was overshadowed by the ogre. The reaping mauler had every bonus you can get to grapple, tho ogre was just an ogre. An ogre with improved grapple gets a +25 to grapple checks at 10th level. If the ogre can make a touch attack the combat is over. The last thing ogre pcs need is the ability to buy off their only hinderance for a few thousand xp.
Willie the Duck 02-23-04, 09:04 PM	slwoyach, I think most people have not had the same experience (for instance, power attacking with your higher bab gives the fighter a damage edge over the ogre). Most people have found that most monsters are built deliberately underpowered for their ECL. That said, this system was designed to address the primary flaw of the ECL system: an LA penalizes you more at higher levels (when that one "lost" level costs tens of thousands of xps), where the benifits have little effect, then at low levels (when it only costs a few thousand xp), where the benifits actually have some effect. It doesn't do it well, but it does do it. This is by no means a cheap and easy way to get rid of your LA, it is virtually impossible for creatures with lots of monster hd (in other words, a drow could do it easily, a minotaur cannot), and seriously favors those with an LA of +2 or less. Is it unbalanced compared to the standard rules? of course, it was designed to make playing monsters more palitable. Is it game changing, turning regular combos into broken ones? not really.
Zaebos 02-23-04, 10:32 PM	Coupled with Savage Species, playing races of non PH origin and using the BUY OFF ECL variant, I can see exactly why the variant was included. Of course to buy off ecl you must first meet specific requirements, and you must do it immideatly upon meeting those requirements, so again, the 'monster' class takes another hit early on, where he falls another level below the party. I can see how this balances out in mid to high level campaigns and virtually has no bearing on epic characters. I for one don't see a problem with it, and it will make playing non-standard races at my table more common.
Hot Rod 02-24-04, 12:35 AM	Thanks for the replies. I've been planning to start a very non-standard campaign (humans/humanoids are a minority :behold: ) and was looking at giving virtual levels to PCs to use toward LA, I think this will work much better. (Especially as I want to start them at 1st level, or as close to that as possible.) Most of the games I've been in have been +0 LA races only (players choice, not vampaign rule). The LA hit is just too nasty at early levels (Drow Sorc with 1D4 HP at Level 3), and nearly worthless at later levels (How useful is darkness 3/day at Lv12?) I'm still waiting on my copy of UA, but this looks promising. :)
Greyman 02-24-04, 03:48 AM	Hot Rod, consider using Savage Progressions: Level-Adjusted Races (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) in conjunction with reducing LA. Using Sean's Template Class rules, your Drow Sorcerer can delay taking the two effective levels in favour of sorcerer to beef up her HD then, after finally completing the Racial class, she can start slowly buying off the LA. ~~ Though I'm wondering what happens to the cost of buying off ECL if, after you've started, your character contracts lycanthropy for a further +2LA.
Qflash 03-03-04, 10:30 AM	what about a shade I have 12 levels spent 4 for shade and 8 for others! when can i start getting this ecl reduction! please help, my character is starting to become useless!
Velderan 03-03-04, 02:06 PM	I thought long and hard about incorporating the rules to buy off Level adjustment into my current D20 modern campaign (we're starting D&D soon), and I had to decide against it. While the system is alright for anyone with a level adjustment of more than 2, I found the exp costs for lower level adjustments to be a little too cheap. If you're an aasimar, for example, you're effectively paying 4000 xp for 2 stat bonuses and all sorts of resistances. The simple solution, of course, is just to make the payoff take place at a higher level, which will be more expensive, and prevent low-level powerhouses. I haven't particularly found that playing monsters with level adjustments overpower characters, because I always allow moderate level adjustments as long as HD dont go over the other players' levels. Its great to start a campaign at level 1, with drow fighting alongside humans....I've never heard "am I gonna level soon???" so many times in my life. Playing monsters CAN overpower characters at mid levels, but I think thats counteracted by how difficult it can be to GET to mid levels. What really ruins a char is having a level adjustment at high levels, which is why the buying off ECL system was created, anyway. That being said, I dont know how much roleplaying is involved in playing something whacky like a Minotaur or an Ogre Rogue. Its been my experience that the novelty of playing a monster wears off, a couple of sessions in, and the Joke of "hey, I'm an Ogre rogue" gets old. Then people are left with boring, one sided characters, that are hard to give any complexity to. I much prefer my players to be something more humanoid like an elf, so they can develop their personality. People are too worried about balance anyway. Dont tell me a Wiz/Sorc is ever balanced with the other classes, and it shouldn't be. Besides, a good character isn't a powerful/min-maxed character, or a character whose power is balanced with their team, its a character that is interesting. I've played weak characters, just for the sake of being interesting, and they stand out in my mind more than any powerhouses I've min/maxed.
Qflash 03-04-04, 09:04 AM	still need help figuring out a +4 ecl shade
Salla 03-04-04, 09:41 AM	As an important note, I don't think you can buy off racial levels (as in the Paragon classes) or monstrous humanoid hit-dice. Only the straight Level Adjustment. For example, a Minotaur has ( ... $*@( it, where's my book?) Uh, okay, I'm going to make up numbers that I hope are close. A minotaur has 8 monster Hit Dice AND an ECL Adjustment of (four?). You can buy off the +4 ECL adjustment, but not the monster Hit Dice. If you're playing an Elf and pick up a couple levels of Elf Paragon, you can't buy those back later.
Krelios 03-04-04, 11:46 AM	The buying off ECL is great for 3 or less LA. At level 20 an 18th level Drow is not the equivalent of a 20th level anything else so their LA should go away, this gives mechanics that balance that change. It's wonderful and it works great. Dont tell me a Wiz/Sorc is ever balanced with the other classes, and it shouldn't be. It is, and it should be. Lots of low-level spells won't do you a whole lot of good at lvl 20, especially since a 10 Wiz/10 Sor has a caster lvl of 10 to beat those high CRs....
Hygric 03-04-04, 07:09 PM	Interestingly enough, I was just bashing around a house rule to replace ECL with an XP deficit that would have equaled the cost in XP to create unslotted magic items that grant the abilities that a critter possesses. Why? In my campaigns, I have seen LA characters go from okay to crud in the space of party level 10 to 15. The higher the LA, the quicker they fall behind at higher levels. So I would say (and this is without seeing this new system in action yet) that it should work well. And needless to say, I have stopped working on my house rule and intend to go with this cleaner and (in some ways) more elegant system.
Hygric 03-04-04, 07:16 PM	Originally posted by Qflash what about a shade I have 12 levels spent 4 for shade and 8 for others! when can i start getting this ecl reduction! please help, my character is starting to become useless! As for your shade, you will have to wait another 4 levels (total character level 16th, 12 class levels and 4 ECL) before you can buy of 1 point of ECL for a cost of 15,000 XP. If you want to know the rest of the progression, go read the book, the maths 'aint to hard if I can do it. Do you happen to be a spell-caster? Is that why you are becomming useless? If so, you have just stumbled across one of the prime rules of LA characters: "Thou shalt not excel as a pure caster."
Qflash 03-05-04, 01:20 PM	No, i'm a ninja shade and still very effective. But i originally used a +2 ecl and then we found out it was +4ecl, which changed by character alot...really hurts right now. i'm 8th level and my group is 12th, and we are in the middle of a desert right now....so sun is always round the corner...tough to get into the shadows around here. so at 6th level and every 3rd level after? wonder if the DM will allow me to start at 12th level ecl. instead of 16?
DrKultra 03-05-04, 10:25 PM	Math for buying off ECL (Current LA)(3) = Level you can buy it off. When using a LA higher than +1, use the next formula: (LA)(3) = Level Level + (LA-1)(3) = New Level Repeat till your LA = 0 For quick understanding of this, check the next table. (1)(3) = 3rd Level (2)(3) = 6th Level, then 9th level (3)(3) = 9th level, then 15th Level, then 18th level (4)(3) = 12th level, then 21th level, then 27th level, then 30th level.
Hygric 03-06-04, 08:25 AM	Note as well that DrKultra lists the level as class level, NOT your ecl.
God of Slivers 04-03-04, 06:43 PM	If those are HD instead of ECL then that means that only +1 or +2 LA can be bought of pre epic, and that sounds rather limiting.
ShadowRanger 04-04-04, 08:05 AM	those are hit dice and LA +3 can be bought off pre-epic
God of Slivers 04-04-04, 11:47 AM	Oops, my mistake.