Buying off LA [Archive] - Wizards Community

Buying off LA [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
OzyBurrfoot
11-10-06, 02:28 PM Ok, I'm making an 11th level character with a +2 LA (thats 9 class levels +2LA = 11, not 11 +2 = 13)

What I cant figure out is, when I bought off those levels, where does that actually leave me in terms of levels and xp? I'm guessing Id have 10 class levels and be short a little xp of getting to 11th.

Its the part where I would have been gaining more xp after 6th and 9th levels to balance me out that I dont get.

I would have paid a total of 16,000 xp, but between when I paid that xp, and now I should have caught up on some xp, so thats what I really need to figure out.

I hope what I'm asking is clear, this rule is confusing enough without having to try asking how it works, LOL.
bholdr_mage
11-11-06, 11:40 PM Ummm....not sure what you are asking. But from your first two lines, a character with class level 9 and EL +2 is level 11. If I'm understanding you right, you want to know how much total exp you have, and how many total levels you have right?

Your ECL (effective character level) is 11. ECL is always level adjustment + class levels.

You have 9 character levels.

You have just as much experience as a human 11th level cleric.

Let's see if I can explain it. A human has a LA of +0. An Assimar has one of +1.

Starting out, both are 1st level. When the human gains 1000 exp, he goes to level 2. The assimar does not gain level 2. When the human gains 3000 experience, he goes to level 3. The assimar goes to level 2. Basically, take 1plus the LA of the race. That is the level you need to obtain to gain class levels in anything. Prior to that, you are just balancing your special abilities out with everyone else.
OzyBurrfoot
11-12-06, 01:21 AM Nope, thats totally off from what I want, thats just basic LA rules. I'm talking about the LA Reduction rules here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)

What I was trying to figure out was, if I buy off a LA with XP, and then keep travelling with a group of adventurers that are an ECL one higher than mine, I would gain more XP than them for the same encounters.

But if I make a character at a high level and I already bought off those levels then I would have gained more XP and would be part way to catching up to their ECL.

What I want to know is, if I am in an 11th level game, with 2 bought off LAs, what how much XP would I have caught up on?
fatal error
11-12-06, 08:04 AM Try running this:
Get an encounter generator. Start at the level you buy off the first LA. Then run it through 12.5 encounters of one level higher than that, then two levels, etc. until you get to 12.5 x CR 10 (which got your party level 11). This should tell you what you have.
User5127
11-12-06, 10:07 AM instead of assigning a starting level, the DM should assign starting XP, that way players who want to "burn" xp for item creation, wishes, and yes LA buy off, can.

They will be of a lower level initially in terms of EXP, but the self correcting nature of the exp system would cause them to eventually catch up to the party.

but yea. tahts how it works. hope that helps.
trapspringer
11-12-06, 09:11 PM You'd be best off assuming your character to have the minimum exp required for level 11. Deduct the cost of the buy-off from that experience and compare your remaining experience to the experience by level table in the front of the PHB.
fatal error
11-13-06, 12:04 PM You'd be best off assuming your character to have the minimum exp required for level 11. Deduct the cost of the buy-off from that experience and compare your remaining experience to the experience by level table in the front of the PHB.

Not sure what you mean by "best off". His character would certainly not be best off.
Adam Smite
11-13-06, 02:10 PM Maybe he wouldn't be best off, but it would be the simplest and fairest way to calculate. What's to assume that he would be adventuring with a party while he's gaining these 11 ECL levels? Just take that minimum xp for level 11 and subtract what you used for LA buyoff. Then calculate your new level, and be sure to keep that extra xp.
trapspringer
11-13-06, 02:16 PM Not sure what you mean by "best off". His character would certainly not be best off.

He, as a person interacting with a group of other players, would best serve his own interests (being accpeted, making friends, avoiding conflict over minutia, etc.) by following my suggestion.

Better?

As an alternative, talk to your DM.
theotherdraxen
11-15-06, 06:10 PM As an alternative, talk to your DM.

Alternative? Shouldn't that have been the first thing he did?:confused:
cthascott
11-15-06, 08:08 PM I've used the Unearthed Arcana payoff system alot and this is what I find is the easiest(albeit not the most fair for the other players) way of using this system at higher levels. I've taken into account your starting level of 11 when figuring this out for you. Here goes.....You have a +2 LA and 9 character levels for an ECL of 11. This is where we'll begin. An 11th level character has 55,000xp. Using the xp payoff system, at 6th and 9th levels, your character was eligable to use the payoff system. 7,000xp was needed for your 6th level payoff and 9,000 xp was needed for you 9th level payoff. Your sum payoff was 16,000xp. To get you started, we'll subtract 16,000xp from your ECL's 55,000xp total and get 39,000xp. This amount will put you 3,000xp above 9th level. Using this method, you'll start off at 9th level with a decent lead on 10th level. You will be behind from the rest of the party for awhile and your racial abilities will be the x factor in helping you survive. The other players will feel good that you'll have to rely on your natural abilities to get you through the interim and shouldn't have any problem with you being slightly more powerful racially. Without an LA, the other players will level up more quickly than you will and this will always be the case because for them to get to 20th level will only have cost them 190,000xp and will have cost you 206,000xp. This should be self sufficient evidence that this method is a fair one. The self correcting nature of the xp system will bring you back close enough to them to make this worth your while. If you want to make it a little bit more fair you could take this a step further and start at 39,000xp and make your character earn that 16,000xp and pay it off(while still only having 39,000xp) before actually advancing leveling up to 10th and then go from there. In this sense, you'll actually have to acrue 16,000 "payoff" xp before gaining any "advancement" xp. The xp system will eventually work for you because as your adventure-mates start at 11th level and work their way up, you'll be gaining 11th level xp at a level 9 pace and once you're done paying off the xp you'll STILL be gaining 11th level xp at a level 9 pace. I hope this wasn't confusing and I hope I helped. Peace.
User5127
11-16-06, 12:00 AM actually that pretty much mapped out the entire process, so if he couldn't understand that and his dm couldn't either, then i would suggest stearing away from LA buy off. lol ^_^

well done.
trapspringer
11-16-06, 11:35 AM Alternative? Shouldn't that have been the first thing he did?:confused:

Hmm, maybe, but some things are just so simple that it would be a waste of everyone's time to go through the long, arduous process of adressing and titling an e-mail and then waiting on response, or worse, making a phone call.

Besides which, most DMs respect a player who opts for a disadvantageous option when presented with two relatively viable choices, particularly when making use of varients and unorthodox character creation methods.
Arcade
11-16-06, 12:46 PM Here's how I went through a calculation.

Starting off, everyone hits 6th level, you buy back a level so now you're at 5th. Compare how much a 5th level character gets for CR 6 encounter compared to a 6th level character. This ratio is how much faster you get XP until you hit 6th level. Then, you gain XP at the same rate as everyone else until they hit 7th level. Then compare a CR 7 encounter for 6th and 7th level characters to determine your new ratio of XP gain and keep going.

Drawn out, it looks like this:

XP Ratio Your Level Others' Level Your XP Others' XP
900:1125 5 6 15000 21000 -- 1st level Buy back
1:1 6 6 21000 25800
1050:1350 6 7 23200 28000
1:1 7 7 28000 31733
1200:1575 7 8 32267 36000
1:1 8 8 36000 38844
1350:1800 8 9 42156 45000
1:1 9 9 45000 47133
1350:1800 8 9 36000 47133 -- 2nd level Buy back
1:1 9 9 45000 53883
1500:2025 9 10 46117 55000
1:1 10 10 55000 61580
1650:2250 10 11 59420 66000

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OzyBurrfoot 11-10-06, 02:28 PM	Ok, I'm making an 11th level character with a +2 LA (thats 9 class levels +2LA = 11, not 11 +2 = 13) What I cant figure out is, when I bought off those levels, where does that actually leave me in terms of levels and xp? I'm guessing Id have 10 class levels and be short a little xp of getting to 11th. Its the part where I would have been gaining more xp after 6th and 9th levels to balance me out that I dont get. I would have paid a total of 16,000 xp, but between when I paid that xp, and now I should have caught up on some xp, so thats what I really need to figure out. I hope what I'm asking is clear, this rule is confusing enough without having to try asking how it works, LOL.
bholdr_mage 11-11-06, 11:40 PM	Ummm....not sure what you are asking. But from your first two lines, a character with class level 9 and EL +2 is level 11. If I'm understanding you right, you want to know how much total exp you have, and how many total levels you have right? Your ECL (effective character level) is 11. ECL is always level adjustment + class levels. You have 9 character levels. You have just as much experience as a human 11th level cleric. Let's see if I can explain it. A human has a LA of +0. An Assimar has one of +1. Starting out, both are 1st level. When the human gains 1000 exp, he goes to level 2. The assimar does not gain level 2. When the human gains 3000 experience, he goes to level 3. The assimar goes to level 2. Basically, take 1plus the LA of the race. That is the level you need to obtain to gain class levels in anything. Prior to that, you are just balancing your special abilities out with everyone else.
OzyBurrfoot 11-12-06, 01:21 AM	Nope, thats totally off from what I want, thats just basic LA rules. I'm talking about the LA Reduction rules here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) What I was trying to figure out was, if I buy off a LA with XP, and then keep travelling with a group of adventurers that are an ECL one higher than mine, I would gain more XP than them for the same encounters. But if I make a character at a high level and I already bought off those levels then I would have gained more XP and would be part way to catching up to their ECL. What I want to know is, if I am in an 11th level game, with 2 bought off LAs, what how much XP would I have caught up on?
fatal error 11-12-06, 08:04 AM	Try running this: Get an encounter generator. Start at the level you buy off the first LA. Then run it through 12.5 encounters of one level higher than that, then two levels, etc. until you get to 12.5 x CR 10 (which got your party level 11). This should tell you what you have.
User5127 11-12-06, 10:07 AM	instead of assigning a starting level, the DM should assign starting XP, that way players who want to "burn" xp for item creation, wishes, and yes LA buy off, can. They will be of a lower level initially in terms of EXP, but the self correcting nature of the exp system would cause them to eventually catch up to the party. but yea. tahts how it works. hope that helps.
trapspringer 11-12-06, 09:11 PM	You'd be best off assuming your character to have the minimum exp required for level 11. Deduct the cost of the buy-off from that experience and compare your remaining experience to the experience by level table in the front of the PHB.
fatal error 11-13-06, 12:04 PM	You'd be best off assuming your character to have the minimum exp required for level 11. Deduct the cost of the buy-off from that experience and compare your remaining experience to the experience by level table in the front of the PHB. Not sure what you mean by "best off". His character would certainly not be best off.
Adam Smite 11-13-06, 02:10 PM	Maybe he wouldn't be best off, but it would be the simplest and fairest way to calculate. What's to assume that he would be adventuring with a party while he's gaining these 11 ECL levels? Just take that minimum xp for level 11 and subtract what you used for LA buyoff. Then calculate your new level, and be sure to keep that extra xp.
trapspringer 11-13-06, 02:16 PM	Not sure what you mean by "best off". His character would certainly not be best off. He, as a person interacting with a group of other players, would best serve his own interests (being accpeted, making friends, avoiding conflict over minutia, etc.) by following my suggestion. Better? As an alternative, talk to your DM.
theotherdraxen 11-15-06, 06:10 PM	As an alternative, talk to your DM. Alternative? Shouldn't that have been the first thing he did?:confused:
cthascott 11-15-06, 08:08 PM	I've used the Unearthed Arcana payoff system alot and this is what I find is the easiest(albeit not the most fair for the other players) way of using this system at higher levels. I've taken into account your starting level of 11 when figuring this out for you. Here goes.....You have a +2 LA and 9 character levels for an ECL of 11. This is where we'll begin. An 11th level character has 55,000xp. Using the xp payoff system, at 6th and 9th levels, your character was eligable to use the payoff system. 7,000xp was needed for your 6th level payoff and 9,000 xp was needed for you 9th level payoff. Your sum payoff was 16,000xp. To get you started, we'll subtract 16,000xp from your ECL's 55,000xp total and get 39,000xp. This amount will put you 3,000xp above 9th level. Using this method, you'll start off at 9th level with a decent lead on 10th level. You will be behind from the rest of the party for awhile and your racial abilities will be the x factor in helping you survive. The other players will feel good that you'll have to rely on your natural abilities to get you through the interim and shouldn't have any problem with you being slightly more powerful racially. Without an LA, the other players will level up more quickly than you will and this will always be the case because for them to get to 20th level will only have cost them 190,000xp and will have cost you 206,000xp. This should be self sufficient evidence that this method is a fair one. The self correcting nature of the xp system will bring you back close enough to them to make this worth your while. If you want to make it a little bit more fair you could take this a step further and start at 39,000xp and make your character earn that 16,000xp and pay it off(while still only having 39,000xp) before actually advancing leveling up to 10th and then go from there. In this sense, you'll actually have to acrue 16,000 "payoff" xp before gaining any "advancement" xp. The xp system will eventually work for you because as your adventure-mates start at 11th level and work their way up, you'll be gaining 11th level xp at a level 9 pace and once you're done paying off the xp you'll STILL be gaining 11th level xp at a level 9 pace. I hope this wasn't confusing and I hope I helped. Peace.
User5127 11-16-06, 12:00 AM	actually that pretty much mapped out the entire process, so if he couldn't understand that and his dm couldn't either, then i would suggest stearing away from LA buy off. lol ^_^ well done.
trapspringer 11-16-06, 11:35 AM	Alternative? Shouldn't that have been the first thing he did?:confused: Hmm, maybe, but some things are just so simple that it would be a waste of everyone's time to go through the long, arduous process of adressing and titling an e-mail and then waiting on response, or worse, making a phone call. Besides which, most DMs respect a player who opts for a disadvantageous option when presented with two relatively viable choices, particularly when making use of varients and unorthodox character creation methods.
Arcade 11-16-06, 12:46 PM	Here's how I went through a calculation. Starting off, everyone hits 6th level, you buy back a level so now you're at 5th. Compare how much a 5th level character gets for CR 6 encounter compared to a 6th level character. This ratio is how much faster you get XP until you hit 6th level. Then, you gain XP at the same rate as everyone else until they hit 7th level. Then compare a CR 7 encounter for 6th and 7th level characters to determine your new ratio of XP gain and keep going. Drawn out, it looks like this: XP Ratio Your Level Others' Level Your XP Others' XP 900:1125 5 6 15000 21000 -- 1st level Buy back 1:1 6 6 21000 25800 1050:1350 6 7 23200 28000 1:1 7 7 28000 31733 1200:1575 7 8 32267 36000 1:1 8 8 36000 38844 1350:1800 8 9 42156 45000 1:1 9 9 45000 47133 1350:1800 8 9 36000 47133 -- 2nd level Buy back 1:1 9 9 45000 53883 1500:2025 9 10 46117 55000 1:1 10 10 55000 61580 1650:2250 10 11 59420 66000