Celtic Classes question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Celtic Classes question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
die
03-31-06, 07:06 PM Over in the Campiagn Workshop section of the boards I'm working on a Celtic-like Campaign (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8812550#post8812550) and I was wondering if I could get some feedback on these variant class ideas.

Fighters, light armor & shields, 4 skill points, additional free feat at 1st level Improved Unarmed Strike. Fighters are the tribal nobles and wrestling and brawling are part of daily drunken life for them.
Rangers, light armor & shields, +2 bonus on all Hide checks and Move Silently checks
Barbarians, light armor & shields, if they go into battle wearing just a loincloth or sky clad they receive their strength bonus to AC

For the starting area there is a specialty cleric class available

Brigit - chaotic neutral red haired goddess of fire and poetry (maiden/mother/crone)
She has an all female priesthood, domains - Magic and Fire (charm for maiden, protection for mom and knowledge for crone)
Her clerics get three domains which change, its charm until she has a child, then its protection until she reaches old age and then its knowledge
no armor, pro w/ swords, daggers, spear & shortspear and once per day can perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning (they burst into flame and burn to ash, the undead that is, not the cleric).

Do these seem balanced to yall? The ranger variant seems kinda lame, anyone have any suggestions?
princeofcincinnati
03-31-06, 11:09 PM In a Celtic setting no one would be proficient in heavy armor because is does not exsist. Just ignore the classes ability to use it and dont change a thing. Now all fighter types are prof in Light armor which is the norm.
Pandaemoni
03-31-06, 11:43 PM Over in the Campiagn Workshop section of the boards I'm working on a Celtic-like Campaign (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8812550#post8812550) and I was wondering if I could get some feedback on these variant class ideas.

Fighters, light armor & shields, 4 skill points, additional free feat at 1st level Improved Unarmed Strike. Fighters are the tribal nobles and wrestling and brawling are part of daily drunken life for them.
Rangers, light armor & shields, +2 bonus on all Hide checks and Move Silently checks
Barbarians, light armor & shields, if they go into battle wearing just a loincloth or sky clad they receive their strength bonus to AC

For the starting area there is a specialty cleric class available

Brigit - chaotic neutral red haired goddess of fire and poetry (maiden/mother/crone)
She has an all female priesthood, domains - Magic and Fire (charm for maiden, protection for mom and knowledge for crone)
Her clerics get three domains which change, its charm until she has a child, then its protection until she reaches old age and then its knowledge
no armor, pro w/ swords, daggers, spear & shortspear and once per day can perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning (they burst into flame and burn to ash, the undead that is, not the cleric).

Do these seem balanced to yall? The ranger variant seems kinda lame, anyone have any suggestions?

They seem fine to me. Likely the importance of Druids and Bards would be somewhat greater in a Celtic-themed area. Also, since the Celts were an illiterate society, there would likely be no native wizards (unless you rule that they learned the language of magic from their own special cliques...even then ink would likely be relatively more rare and expensive). Scrolls would likewise be unusual.

As for Rangers, there are many tweaks that could be made to the profession to improve them, so it's difficult to offer advice.
die
04-01-06, 09:07 AM Its going to be a typical D&D world as far as the other races go so there will be heavier armor, just that the humans and half-elves won't have it so I was trying to balance the classes compared to regular fighters and barbarians, which they will meet (formorian raiders and roman-esque hobgoblins). And also to make them appealing to the jaded power gamers that make up most of my D&D group :)

For wizards they do not receive Scribe Scroll at first level, they get Spell Mastery instead and they have a minor penalty that their spellbooks are the stone monoliths, for those planning on traveling, recommend picking up Spell Mastery again. I was also planning on allowing a few spells to be tattooed on as well as a variant of spell mastery involving stars.

For Druids and Bards I was going to go with no armor, pro w/ swords, daggers, clubs, spears & shortspear. Bards (and Rogues) would get Survival added to class skills since its going to be a rural setting. Druids were going to get knowledge (religion, local and history) added to their class skills since they are the teachers and perform religious rites for the most part.

Sorcerers would be half-elves or have a background feat like fey blooded or use a bloodline from UA.

Anyway, I was just curious if the fighter, barbarian, ranger seemed balanced, thanks again for the input :D

any other thoughts or comments?
Phoenix Knight
04-01-06, 12:30 PM They seem fine to me. Many Celtic warriors didn't have much armor (or clothing), when going into battle, at least by what is written by Romans.

In my previous Celtic campaign, I gave all Celtic warriors (fighters, rangers, barbs) the monk ability to add Wis bonus to AC when unarmored. I didn't give it to all Celts, because it didn't seem fair for druids to receive it.

With the unavailability of anything heavier than light, this meant most went without armor until later in the game when a few got magic elven armor.

As a side note, IMC, Brigit, chief goddess of the bards, was one of the daoine sidhe. I didn't actually have clerics (for the Celts), because the druids handled the religious side of life (as well as law, history, and what not, as the educated class of society).

I don't know if any of this is helpful, but I hope so.

You might consider a more substantial bonus for rangers, like +10 base speed when unarmored, or something. Most rangers are already going to be pretty stealthy, and while the extra bonus never hurts, its overall impact will probably be small (of course, most wouldn't have used medium armor in my experience, either, so...).

I think some will think losing the two feats (Medium Armor and Heavy Armor, especially), will not be worth Improved Unarmed Strike for the fighter, which is not likely to use that feat very often. Though it is good for flavor, most players are going to be more worried about what helps them often in their daily fights to the death with enemies, not romps with each other or allies.
Delfedd
04-02-06, 02:28 PM Maybe remove the armor proficency (light) from all non-warrior types (rogues, bards etc) to make fighters and such more awesome. I remember a book a while back which invoved Merlin in the time of the Celts. I think it was called Celtica or Celtika or Keltica or something. It was very good. I'll look it up at the library sometime and post it here.
die
04-04-06, 06:47 AM Phoenix Knight and Delfedd good ideas, thanks :D
kintire
04-04-06, 08:17 AM Also, since the Celts were an illiterate society, there would likely be no native wizards (unless you rule that they learned the language of magic from their own special cliques...even then ink would likely be relatively more rare and expensive). Scrolls would likewise be unusual.

Not quite. Several example of Ogham writing have been found. It was done by carving strokes above and below a line to make the letters. You wouldn't have scrolls, but you could do Ogham writing in bits of wood (magic wands? :) )

I didn't actually have clerics (for the Celts), because the druids handled the religious side of life (as well as law, history, and what not, as the educated class of society).

Actually, if going for historical accuracy I would do it the other way around. the Druid class basically seems to have covered all educated people, not necessarily priests although they were certainly included. Myths include druids who were basically wizards, clerics, prophets, lawyers or just very very smart. However, apart from the wierd magic types (who were more like Wizards) they were very much a part of society and served the people or the gods or both. The nature worshipping, wilderness protecting, anti-farmer, anti-hunter Druid type isn't Celtic at all. I'd just use Clerics.
DrMorganes
04-04-06, 11:24 AM Meh. Historical accuracy in D&D is largely irrelevant - espeicially when dealing with a society lacking in primary sources of historical data. Go with flavor and I think you'll have much more success.

Clergy is a bit of a mixed bag. How is a Cleric of Obad-Hai all that different from a Druid who worships the Shalm? Same diety, different class features.

Might want to consider focusing on the Scout class from Complete Adventurer as a ranger varient. They have much of the same flavor, but with increased land speed and no spellcasting. Skirmish makes for some very dangerous light tanks! Scouts can take Track as a bonus feat, and get Survival as a class skill (with 6 skill points per level), so they can cover all the standard rangerly stuff. Still need light or no armor for Battle Fortitude.
kelvinaw273
04-08-06, 07:36 AM I wouldn't bother messing with the classes, but I would allow the UA Defence Bonus to Skyclad warriors, or else allow them a +4 AC divine/morale bonus.

Celtic warriors would be either warriors, barbarians or rangers. There is no need to introduce fighters as increased skill/decreased armour fighters. The Celts thought anyone wearing armour in battle (other than a shield) was a wuss, so scrap all armour save 'incidental' armour such as furs. Non-cletic fighters will exist - vikings, Germanic tribes, Romans etc. and they WILL have armour.

Clerics? No clergy other than Druids, unless they are foreign missionaries.

Bards would hold a very exalted position, although again - no armour.

Wizards? Cletic legend was full of them, and they did have the Oghamic script. Sorcerers too. In fact the only class I really cannot justify in the setting would be the Monk.

Celtic civilisation was actually pretty advanced by the time of the Roman conquest, and could have become more so if the Romans had not 'pacified' the Celts. Only in Ireland and Scotland was it untouched, and these enclaves were too small to get a good lift on civilisation. But on the other hand if the Boudicca rebelion had succeeded ....
Hazkali
04-19-06, 09:06 AM Bards were not the minstrelly-type bards of the PHB, and definitley had no leaning towards Chaos. Perhaps put them under the same alignment restrictions as druids.

I like the idea of unarmoured warriors getting their wis bonus to AC. Will have to steal that for my campaign.

It's true what has been said about how the Druid class isn't accurate compared to "true" druids, but most of that is just fluff- in DnD, Druids are reclusive nature worshippers, but in a Celtic themed world they would be the priests and sages. Perhaps try giving the druid more divination spells to represent this.

I reccomend "Chronicles of the Celts" by Ian Zaczek (ISBN 1-85585-407-4). It's all about the legend cycles of Ireland, Wales and Brittany. Good for stuff
die
04-19-06, 03:17 PM Lots of good ideas and views, I think I'm still going to go with the ease of play more than historically correct.

I wanted the druids for the general day to day religious affairs of the tribe and a separate specialty group of clerics to represent those who dedicate themselves to a particular god and less with the tribes daily activities. I just thought a few more choices might be fun to play with.

There is no need to introduce fighters as increased skill/decreased armour fighters.
As far as the modified fighters go, they are going to represent the chiefs and nobles who would occasionally be able to afford or desire to wear a chain shirt and I wanted to give them something in exchange for the loss of medium and heavy armor.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
die 03-31-06, 07:06 PM	Over in the Campiagn Workshop section of the boards I'm working on a Celtic-like Campaign (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8812550#post8812550) and I was wondering if I could get some feedback on these variant class ideas. Fighters, light armor & shields, 4 skill points, additional free feat at 1st level Improved Unarmed Strike. Fighters are the tribal nobles and wrestling and brawling are part of daily drunken life for them. Rangers, light armor & shields, +2 bonus on all Hide checks and Move Silently checks Barbarians, light armor & shields, if they go into battle wearing just a loincloth or sky clad they receive their strength bonus to AC For the starting area there is a specialty cleric class available Brigit - chaotic neutral red haired goddess of fire and poetry (maiden/mother/crone) She has an all female priesthood, domains - Magic and Fire (charm for maiden, protection for mom and knowledge for crone) Her clerics get three domains which change, its charm until she has a child, then its protection until she reaches old age and then its knowledge no armor, pro w/ swords, daggers, spear & shortspear and once per day can perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning (they burst into flame and burn to ash, the undead that is, not the cleric). Do these seem balanced to yall? The ranger variant seems kinda lame, anyone have any suggestions?
princeofcincinnati 03-31-06, 11:09 PM	In a Celtic setting no one would be proficient in heavy armor because is does not exsist. Just ignore the classes ability to use it and dont change a thing. Now all fighter types are prof in Light armor which is the norm.
Pandaemoni 03-31-06, 11:43 PM	Over in the Campiagn Workshop section of the boards I'm working on a Celtic-like Campaign (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8812550#post8812550) and I was wondering if I could get some feedback on these variant class ideas. Fighters, light armor & shields, 4 skill points, additional free feat at 1st level Improved Unarmed Strike. Fighters are the tribal nobles and wrestling and brawling are part of daily drunken life for them. Rangers, light armor & shields, +2 bonus on all Hide checks and Move Silently checks Barbarians, light armor & shields, if they go into battle wearing just a loincloth or sky clad they receive their strength bonus to AC For the starting area there is a specialty cleric class available Brigit - chaotic neutral red haired goddess of fire and poetry (maiden/mother/crone) She has an all female priesthood, domains - Magic and Fire (charm for maiden, protection for mom and knowledge for crone) Her clerics get three domains which change, its charm until she has a child, then its protection until she reaches old age and then its knowledge no armor, pro w/ swords, daggers, spear & shortspear and once per day can perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning (they burst into flame and burn to ash, the undead that is, not the cleric). Do these seem balanced to yall? The ranger variant seems kinda lame, anyone have any suggestions? They seem fine to me. Likely the importance of Druids and Bards would be somewhat greater in a Celtic-themed area. Also, since the Celts were an illiterate society, there would likely be no native wizards (unless you rule that they learned the language of magic from their own special cliques...even then ink would likely be relatively more rare and expensive). Scrolls would likewise be unusual. As for Rangers, there are many tweaks that could be made to the profession to improve them, so it's difficult to offer advice.
die 04-01-06, 09:07 AM	Its going to be a typical D&D world as far as the other races go so there will be heavier armor, just that the humans and half-elves won't have it so I was trying to balance the classes compared to regular fighters and barbarians, which they will meet (formorian raiders and roman-esque hobgoblins). And also to make them appealing to the jaded power gamers that make up most of my D&D group :) For wizards they do not receive Scribe Scroll at first level, they get Spell Mastery instead and they have a minor penalty that their spellbooks are the stone monoliths, for those planning on traveling, recommend picking up Spell Mastery again. I was also planning on allowing a few spells to be tattooed on as well as a variant of spell mastery involving stars. For Druids and Bards I was going to go with no armor, pro w/ swords, daggers, clubs, spears & shortspear. Bards (and Rogues) would get Survival added to class skills since its going to be a rural setting. Druids were going to get knowledge (religion, local and history) added to their class skills since they are the teachers and perform religious rites for the most part. Sorcerers would be half-elves or have a background feat like fey blooded or use a bloodline from UA. Anyway, I was just curious if the fighter, barbarian, ranger seemed balanced, thanks again for the input :D any other thoughts or comments?
Phoenix Knight 04-01-06, 12:30 PM	They seem fine to me. Many Celtic warriors didn't have much armor (or clothing), when going into battle, at least by what is written by Romans. In my previous Celtic campaign, I gave all Celtic warriors (fighters, rangers, barbs) the monk ability to add Wis bonus to AC when unarmored. I didn't give it to all Celts, because it didn't seem fair for druids to receive it. With the unavailability of anything heavier than light, this meant most went without armor until later in the game when a few got magic elven armor. As a side note, IMC, Brigit, chief goddess of the bards, was one of the daoine sidhe. I didn't actually have clerics (for the Celts), because the druids handled the religious side of life (as well as law, history, and what not, as the educated class of society). I don't know if any of this is helpful, but I hope so. You might consider a more substantial bonus for rangers, like +10 base speed when unarmored, or something. Most rangers are already going to be pretty stealthy, and while the extra bonus never hurts, its overall impact will probably be small (of course, most wouldn't have used medium armor in my experience, either, so...). I think some will think losing the two feats (Medium Armor and Heavy Armor, especially), will not be worth Improved Unarmed Strike for the fighter, which is not likely to use that feat very often. Though it is good for flavor, most players are going to be more worried about what helps them often in their daily fights to the death with enemies, not romps with each other or allies.
Delfedd 04-02-06, 02:28 PM	Maybe remove the armor proficency (light) from all non-warrior types (rogues, bards etc) to make fighters and such more awesome. I remember a book a while back which invoved Merlin in the time of the Celts. I think it was called Celtica or Celtika or Keltica or something. It was very good. I'll look it up at the library sometime and post it here.
die 04-04-06, 06:47 AM	Phoenix Knight and Delfedd good ideas, thanks :D
kintire 04-04-06, 08:17 AM	Also, since the Celts were an illiterate society, there would likely be no native wizards (unless you rule that they learned the language of magic from their own special cliques...even then ink would likely be relatively more rare and expensive). Scrolls would likewise be unusual. Not quite. Several example of Ogham writing have been found. It was done by carving strokes above and below a line to make the letters. You wouldn't have scrolls, but you could do Ogham writing in bits of wood (magic wands? :) ) I didn't actually have clerics (for the Celts), because the druids handled the religious side of life (as well as law, history, and what not, as the educated class of society). Actually, if going for historical accuracy I would do it the other way around. the Druid class basically seems to have covered all educated people, not necessarily priests although they were certainly included. Myths include druids who were basically wizards, clerics, prophets, lawyers or just very very smart. However, apart from the wierd magic types (who were more like Wizards) they were very much a part of society and served the people or the gods or both. The nature worshipping, wilderness protecting, anti-farmer, anti-hunter Druid type isn't Celtic at all. I'd just use Clerics.
DrMorganes 04-04-06, 11:24 AM	Meh. Historical accuracy in D&D is largely irrelevant - espeicially when dealing with a society lacking in primary sources of historical data. Go with flavor and I think you'll have much more success. Clergy is a bit of a mixed bag. How is a Cleric of Obad-Hai all that different from a Druid who worships the Shalm? Same diety, different class features. Might want to consider focusing on the Scout class from Complete Adventurer as a ranger varient. They have much of the same flavor, but with increased land speed and no spellcasting. Skirmish makes for some very dangerous light tanks! Scouts can take Track as a bonus feat, and get Survival as a class skill (with 6 skill points per level), so they can cover all the standard rangerly stuff. Still need light or no armor for Battle Fortitude.
kelvinaw273 04-08-06, 07:36 AM	I wouldn't bother messing with the classes, but I would allow the UA Defence Bonus to Skyclad warriors, or else allow them a +4 AC divine/morale bonus. Celtic warriors would be either warriors, barbarians or rangers. There is no need to introduce fighters as increased skill/decreased armour fighters. The Celts thought anyone wearing armour in battle (other than a shield) was a wuss, so scrap all armour save 'incidental' armour such as furs. Non-cletic fighters will exist - vikings, Germanic tribes, Romans etc. and they WILL have armour. Clerics? No clergy other than Druids, unless they are foreign missionaries. Bards would hold a very exalted position, although again - no armour. Wizards? Cletic legend was full of them, and they did have the Oghamic script. Sorcerers too. In fact the only class I really cannot justify in the setting would be the Monk. Celtic civilisation was actually pretty advanced by the time of the Roman conquest, and could have become more so if the Romans had not 'pacified' the Celts. Only in Ireland and Scotland was it untouched, and these enclaves were too small to get a good lift on civilisation. But on the other hand if the Boudicca rebelion had succeeded ....
Hazkali 04-19-06, 09:06 AM	Bards were not the minstrelly-type bards of the PHB, and definitley had no leaning towards Chaos. Perhaps put them under the same alignment restrictions as druids. I like the idea of unarmoured warriors getting their wis bonus to AC. Will have to steal that for my campaign. It's true what has been said about how the Druid class isn't accurate compared to "true" druids, but most of that is just fluff- in DnD, Druids are reclusive nature worshippers, but in a Celtic themed world they would be the priests and sages. Perhaps try giving the druid more divination spells to represent this. I reccomend "Chronicles of the Celts" by Ian Zaczek (ISBN 1-85585-407-4). It's all about the legend cycles of Ireland, Wales and Brittany. Good for stuff
die 04-19-06, 03:17 PM	Lots of good ideas and views, I think I'm still going to go with the ease of play more than historically correct. I wanted the druids for the general day to day religious affairs of the tribe and a separate specialty group of clerics to represent those who dedicate themselves to a particular god and less with the tribes daily activities. I just thought a few more choices might be fun to play with. There is no need to introduce fighters as increased skill/decreased armour fighters. As far as the modified fighters go, they are going to represent the chiefs and nobles who would occasionally be able to afford or desire to wear a chain shirt and I wanted to give them something in exchange for the loss of medium and heavy armor.