Changing armor classification [Archive] - Wizards Community

Changing armor classification [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
s4dfish
10-18-04, 06:46 PM Okay here's my idea. Have each armor have an armor value, armor check penalty, and % arcane spell failure. That's it.

Then assign each armor to a group (light, medium, heavy). This classification would be based on the armor check penalty for that armor. Light armor would be any armor with an armor check penalty 2 or less. Armor with an armor check between 3 and 5 (inclusive) is medium. Armor with an armor check between 6 and 8 (inclusive) is considered heavy. Anything with a check between 9 and 11 (inclusive) is counted as very heavy (heavy with the extra penalties to movement found in Races of Stone (forgot the name of the armor that demonstrates it)). No armor should have an armor check penalty greater than 11.

With this system, masterwork armor could be counted as counted as a lighter form of armor than a non-masterwork version of the same armor. I haven't tested this, so your suggestions are welcome and desired.
DevaNinja
10-19-04, 01:28 AM You might want to give us a few examples to go by?
s4dfish
10-19-04, 03:32 PM You might want to give us a few examples to go by?So picky... :D

Let me find my books and I'll post some up.

Okay, first armor as is

Light
Padded +1 +8 0
Leather +2 +6 0
Studded Leather +3 +5 -1
Chain Shirt +4 +4 -2
Medium
Hide +3 +4 -3
Scale Mail +4 +3 -4
Chainmail +5 +2 -5
Breastplate +5 +3 -4
Heavy
Splint Mail +6 +0 -7
Banded Mail +6 +1 -6
Half-Plate +7 +0 -7
Full Plate +8 +1 -6
s4dfish
10-19-04, 04:45 PM Okay no armor changes classifications at this point, but when you look at masterwork armor, things get funky (my idea breaks down in unexpected ways, have so more work to do)

Light
Padded +1 +8 0
Leather +2 +6 0
Studded Leather +3 +5 0
Chain Shirt +4 +4 -1
Hide +3 +4 -2
Medium
Scale Mail +4 +3 -3
Chainmail +5 +2 -4
Breastplate +5 +3 -3
Banded Mail +6 +1 -5
Full Plate +8 +1 -5
Heavy
Splint Mail +6 +0 -6
Half-Plate +7 +0 -6

I wasn't planning on Full Plate becoming medium armor (which is broken!), so I'll do some more thinking on this one...
roll8dn
10-19-04, 05:42 PM Well, honestly, by the time that a PC could afford a suit of masterwork full plate (plus all of the other gear neccessary for survival), (s)he would likely be able to afford mithral full plate. Since that is considered a weight category lighter anyway, it might not be that unbalancing. Just my opinion, though.
s4dfish
10-19-04, 11:20 PM What I've been toying around with is slightly changing the numbers to a lot of the armor so that it makes a little more sense (at least to my mind). I mean why should full plate be less cumbersome and easier to wear than half plate?

So I made a formula to compute a 'worth' for each armor based on how beneficial it is for you. I figure the AC bonus is the most import aspect of armor. Shortly after that is the Dexterity bonus, however a majority of characters aren't going to use as much Dex bonus as some armor allows (i.e. padded armor). So the first four points of Dex bonus are weighed as half as important as the AC bonus and any other points are a quarter as important. Lastly I figure very few people in full plate are generally going to make checks that their armor penalizes, if they are than they'll probably use lighter armor. So armor check penalty is a quarter as important as the AC bonus.

A=AC bonus
B=Max Dexterity bonus (up to four points)
C=Max Dexterity bonus (beyond four points)
D=Armor Check Penalty
E=Worth of armor

A+.5(B)+.25(C)+.25(D)=E

Two examples:
Padded armor A=1, B=4, C=4, D=0
1+.5(4)+.25(4)+.25(0)=4
E=4
Breastplate A=5, B=3, C=0. D=-4
5+.5(3)+.25(0)+.25(-4)=5.5
E=5.5

Before any changes are made here is the worth (E) for each of the core armors.

Light
Padded 4
Leather 4.5
Studded Leather 5
Chain Shirt 5.5
Medium
Hide 4.25
Scale Mail 4.5
Chainmail 4.75
Breastplate 5.5
Heavy
Splint Mail 4.25
Banded Mail 5
Half-Plate 5.25
Full Plate 7

What do we learn with this? Full Plate is hands down the best armor, followed by a tie between the chain shirt and breastplate. Padded armor is the worst armor followed by a tie between Hide and Splint Mail. All the other armor falls between values of 4.5 and 5.25.

My inference is that unless the character is wearing Full Plate, there is little reason not to be wearing a Chain Shirt (assuming a moderately mid/maxed character).
s4dfish
10-20-04, 12:44 AM To have more appropriate worths for each armor I'm setting expected ranges for each type of armor (light, medium, and heavy). I expect light armor to fall between 4 and 5, medium between 5 and 6, heavy between 6 and 7, and very heavy between 7 and 8. Since there are four armors for each category I give each armor an expected worth. Actual worth is listed first, followed by expected worth.

Light
Padded 4 4
Leather 4.5 4.25
Studded Leather 5 4.75
Chain Shirt 5.5 5
Medium
Hide 4.25 5.25
Scale Mail 4.5 5.5
Chainmail 4.75 5.75
Breastplate 5.5 6
Heavy
Splint Mail 4.25 6.0
Banded Mail 5 6.25
Half-Plate 5.25 6.5
Full Plate 7 6.75Okay looking at this, a majority of armor need revision. I'll start with the light armor.

Padded armor is right on and needs no revision. Leather armor is .25 too high, so simply drop its max DEX bonus to +5. Studded Leather is .5 too high so drop its max DEX bonus to +4 and increase it's armor check penalty to -2. Chain Shirt is .5 too high, so decrease its max DEX bonus to +3.

Light - Original
Padded +1 +8 0
Leather +2 +6 0
Studded Leather +3 +5 -1
Chain Shirt +4 +4 -2
Light - Modified
Padded +1 +8 0
Leather +2 +5 0
Studded Leather +3 +4 -2
Chain Shirt +4 +3 -2Next is medium armor.

Hide armor just plain sucks and is 1 too low, increase AC bonus to +4. Scale Mail is 1 too low, increase the AC bonus to +5. Chainmail is 1 too low, increase AC bonus to +6. Breastplace is .5 too low, increase max DEX bonus to +4.

Medium - Original
Hide +3 +4 -3
Scale Mail +4 +3 -4
Chainmail +5 +2 -5
Breastplate +5 +3 -4
Medium - Modified
Hide +4 +4 -3
Scale Mail +5 +3 -4
Chainmail +6 +2 -5
Breastplate +5 +4 -4Finally, heavy armor.

Splint Mail is 1.75 too low, max DEX bonus to +3 and decrease armor check penalty to +6. Banded mail is 1.25 too low, increase AC bonus to +7, increase max DEX bonus +2, and increase armor check bonus to -7. Half-plate is 1.25 too low, increase AC bonus to +8, max DEX bonus to +1, and armor check penalty to -8. Full Plate is right on, but I'm still changing it :P, increase AC bonus to +9, decrease max DEX bonus to 0, and increase armor check penalty to -8.

Heavy - Original
Splint Mail +6 0 -7
Banded Mail +6 +1 -6
Half-Plate +7 0 -7
Full Plate +8 +1 -6
Heavy - Modified
Splint Mail +6 +3 -6
Banded Mail +7 +2 -7
Half-Plate +8 +1 -8
Full Plate +9 0 -8
s4dfish
10-20-04, 01:44 AM With a new armor list some things change as far as my adjust armor classification based on armor check penalty.

Normal list

Light
Padded +1 +8 0
Leather +2 +5 0
Studded Leather +3 +4 -2
Chain Shirt +4 +3 -2
Medium
Hide +4 +4 -3
Scale Mail +5 +3 -4
Chainmail +6 +2 -5
Breastplate +5 +4 -4
Heavy
Splint Mail +6 +3 -6
Banded Mail +7 +2 -7
Half-Plate +8 +1 -8
Full Plate +9 0 -8Masterwork list

Light
Padded +1 +8 0
Leather +2 +5 0
Studded Leather +3 +4 -1
Chain Shirt +4 +3 -1
Hide +4 +4 -2
Medium
Scale Mail +5 +3 -3
Chainmail +6 +2 -4
Breastplate +5 +4 -3
Splint Mail +6 +3 -5
Heavy
Banded Mail +7 +2 -6
Half-Plate +8 +1 -7
Full Plate +9 0 -7
s4dfish
10-20-04, 03:53 PM Okay, Exotic Armor is worth .5 more than the max worth of the base catagory. So...
Light Exotic Armor = 5.5 points
Medium Exotic Armor = 6.5 points
Heavy Exotic Armor = 7.5 points
Very Heavy Exotic Armor = 8.5 points

Interlocking is .5 cost armor characteristic that may only be found in exotic armor, it is indicated with an *. For a description of this feature, see Races of Stone.

Examples

Light
L1 +2 +10 +0
L2 +4 +4 -2
L3* +4 +3 -2
Medium
M1 +5 +5 -3
M2 +6 +3 -4
M3* +6 +2 -4
Heavy
H1 +8 +2 -6
H2 +9 +1 -8
H3* +9 +0 -8
Very Heavy
VH +11 +0 -10
s4dfish
10-20-04, 10:10 PM Okay more modifications. After conversations in another thread I'm going to increase the range of quality in each category (particularly in medium and heavy categories).

Original values are first, followed by my first modification, and followed by this modification.

Light
Padded 4 4 4
Leather 4.5 4.25 4.5
Studded Leather 5 4.75 5
Chain Shirt 5.5 5 5.25
Medium
Hide 4.25 5.25 4.5
Scale Mail 4.5 5.5 5
Chainmail 4.75 5.75 5.75
Breastplate 5.5 6 6
Heavy
Splint Mail 4.25 6.0 5
Banded Mail 5 6.25 5.75
Half-Plate 5.25 6.5 6.5
Full Plate 7 6.75 6.75Okay so the following armor changes from my last attempt:
Leather (back to normal)
Studded Leather (back to normal)
Chain Shirt (as last revision, but armor check 1 better)
Hide (back to normal, but max Dex 1 better)
Scale Mail (back to normal, but max Dex 1 better)
Splint Mail (as last revision, but max Dex 2 worse)
Banded Mail (as last revision, but max Dex 1 worse)

New list looks like
Light
Padded +1 +8 0
Leather +2 +6 0
Studded Leather +3 +5 -1
Chain Shirt +4 +3 -1
Medium
Hide +3 +5 -3
Scale Mail +4 +4 -4
Chainmail +6 +2 -5
Breastplate +5 +4 -4
Heavy
Splint Mail +6 +1 -6
Banded Mail +7 +1 -7
Half-Plate +8 +1 -8
Full Plate +9 0 -8
StevenO
10-20-04, 11:20 PM Changing the classification of the various armors sounds like a tricky way to get around proficiency requirements. I agree that most of the heavy armor needs a little modification to be more useful but a system that would allow a real fancy suit of full plate to be considered medium armor not the way to do it. Why change the rules when they aren't broken.

It's interesting you found full plate to be the best armor followed by breastplate and chain shirts. A cursory glance tells you that those armors yield the best total AC provided you have the corresponding dexterity. By the time padded armor becomes that good regular clothing does almost as much good, especially if you allow clothing to be enchanted like armor.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
s4dfish 10-18-04, 06:46 PM	Okay here's my idea. Have each armor have an armor value, armor check penalty, and % arcane spell failure. That's it. Then assign each armor to a group (light, medium, heavy). This classification would be based on the armor check penalty for that armor. Light armor would be any armor with an armor check penalty 2 or less. Armor with an armor check between 3 and 5 (inclusive) is medium. Armor with an armor check between 6 and 8 (inclusive) is considered heavy. Anything with a check between 9 and 11 (inclusive) is counted as very heavy (heavy with the extra penalties to movement found in Races of Stone (forgot the name of the armor that demonstrates it)). No armor should have an armor check penalty greater than 11. With this system, masterwork armor could be counted as counted as a lighter form of armor than a non-masterwork version of the same armor. I haven't tested this, so your suggestions are welcome and desired.
DevaNinja 10-19-04, 01:28 AM	You might want to give us a few examples to go by?
s4dfish 10-19-04, 03:32 PM	You might want to give us a few examples to go by?So picky... :D Let me find my books and I'll post some up. Okay, first armor as is Light Padded +1 +8 0 Leather +2 +6 0 Studded Leather +3 +5 -1 Chain Shirt +4 +4 -2 Medium Hide +3 +4 -3 Scale Mail +4 +3 -4 Chainmail +5 +2 -5 Breastplate +5 +3 -4 Heavy Splint Mail +6 +0 -7 Banded Mail +6 +1 -6 Half-Plate +7 +0 -7 Full Plate +8 +1 -6
s4dfish 10-19-04, 04:45 PM	Okay no armor changes classifications at this point, but when you look at masterwork armor, things get funky (my idea breaks down in unexpected ways, have so more work to do) Light Padded +1 +8 0 Leather +2 +6 0 Studded Leather +3 +5 0 Chain Shirt +4 +4 -1 Hide +3 +4 -2 Medium Scale Mail +4 +3 -3 Chainmail +5 +2 -4 Breastplate +5 +3 -3 Banded Mail +6 +1 -5 Full Plate +8 +1 -5 Heavy Splint Mail +6 +0 -6 Half-Plate +7 +0 -6 I wasn't planning on Full Plate becoming medium armor (which is broken!), so I'll do some more thinking on this one...
roll8dn 10-19-04, 05:42 PM	Well, honestly, by the time that a PC could afford a suit of masterwork full plate (plus all of the other gear neccessary for survival), (s)he would likely be able to afford mithral full plate. Since that is considered a weight category lighter anyway, it might not be that unbalancing. Just my opinion, though.
s4dfish 10-19-04, 11:20 PM	What I've been toying around with is slightly changing the numbers to a lot of the armor so that it makes a little more sense (at least to my mind). I mean why should full plate be less cumbersome and easier to wear than half plate? So I made a formula to compute a 'worth' for each armor based on how beneficial it is for you. I figure the AC bonus is the most import aspect of armor. Shortly after that is the Dexterity bonus, however a majority of characters aren't going to use as much Dex bonus as some armor allows (i.e. padded armor). So the first four points of Dex bonus are weighed as half as important as the AC bonus and any other points are a quarter as important. Lastly I figure very few people in full plate are generally going to make checks that their armor penalizes, if they are than they'll probably use lighter armor. So armor check penalty is a quarter as important as the AC bonus. A=AC bonus B=Max Dexterity bonus (up to four points) C=Max Dexterity bonus (beyond four points) D=Armor Check Penalty E=Worth of armor A+.5(B)+.25(C)+.25(D)=E Two examples: Padded armor A=1, B=4, C=4, D=0 1+.5(4)+.25(4)+.25(0)=4 E=4 Breastplate A=5, B=3, C=0. D=-4 5+.5(3)+.25(0)+.25(-4)=5.5 E=5.5 Before any changes are made here is the worth (E) for each of the core armors. Light Padded 4 Leather 4.5 Studded Leather 5 Chain Shirt 5.5 Medium Hide 4.25 Scale Mail 4.5 Chainmail 4.75 Breastplate 5.5 Heavy Splint Mail 4.25 Banded Mail 5 Half-Plate 5.25 Full Plate 7 What do we learn with this? Full Plate is hands down the best armor, followed by a tie between the chain shirt and breastplate. Padded armor is the worst armor followed by a tie between Hide and Splint Mail. All the other armor falls between values of 4.5 and 5.25. My inference is that unless the character is wearing Full Plate, there is little reason not to be wearing a Chain Shirt (assuming a moderately mid/maxed character).
s4dfish 10-20-04, 12:44 AM	To have more appropriate worths for each armor I'm setting expected ranges for each type of armor (light, medium, and heavy). I expect light armor to fall between 4 and 5, medium between 5 and 6, heavy between 6 and 7, and very heavy between 7 and 8. Since there are four armors for each category I give each armor an expected worth. Actual worth is listed first, followed by expected worth. Light Padded 4 4 Leather 4.5 4.25 Studded Leather 5 4.75 Chain Shirt 5.5 5 Medium Hide 4.25 5.25 Scale Mail 4.5 5.5 Chainmail 4.75 5.75 Breastplate 5.5 6 Heavy Splint Mail 4.25 6.0 Banded Mail 5 6.25 Half-Plate 5.25 6.5 Full Plate 7 6.75Okay looking at this, a majority of armor need revision. I'll start with the light armor. Padded armor is right on and needs no revision. Leather armor is .25 too high, so simply drop its max DEX bonus to +5. Studded Leather is .5 too high so drop its max DEX bonus to +4 and increase it's armor check penalty to -2. Chain Shirt is .5 too high, so decrease its max DEX bonus to +3. Light - Original Padded +1 +8 0 Leather +2 +6 0 Studded Leather +3 +5 -1 Chain Shirt +4 +4 -2 Light - Modified Padded +1 +8 0 Leather +2 +5 0 Studded Leather +3 +4 -2 Chain Shirt +4 +3 -2Next is medium armor. Hide armor just plain sucks and is 1 too low, increase AC bonus to +4. Scale Mail is 1 too low, increase the AC bonus to +5. Chainmail is 1 too low, increase AC bonus to +6. Breastplace is .5 too low, increase max DEX bonus to +4. Medium - Original Hide +3 +4 -3 Scale Mail +4 +3 -4 Chainmail +5 +2 -5 Breastplate +5 +3 -4 Medium - Modified Hide +4 +4 -3 Scale Mail +5 +3 -4 Chainmail +6 +2 -5 Breastplate +5 +4 -4Finally, heavy armor. Splint Mail is 1.75 too low, max DEX bonus to +3 and decrease armor check penalty to +6. Banded mail is 1.25 too low, increase AC bonus to +7, increase max DEX bonus +2, and increase armor check bonus to -7. Half-plate is 1.25 too low, increase AC bonus to +8, max DEX bonus to +1, and armor check penalty to -8. Full Plate is right on, but I'm still changing it :P, increase AC bonus to +9, decrease max DEX bonus to 0, and increase armor check penalty to -8. Heavy - Original Splint Mail +6 0 -7 Banded Mail +6 +1 -6 Half-Plate +7 0 -7 Full Plate +8 +1 -6 Heavy - Modified Splint Mail +6 +3 -6 Banded Mail +7 +2 -7 Half-Plate +8 +1 -8 Full Plate +9 0 -8
s4dfish 10-20-04, 01:44 AM	With a new armor list some things change as far as my adjust armor classification based on armor check penalty. Normal list Light Padded +1 +8 0 Leather +2 +5 0 Studded Leather +3 +4 -2 Chain Shirt +4 +3 -2 Medium Hide +4 +4 -3 Scale Mail +5 +3 -4 Chainmail +6 +2 -5 Breastplate +5 +4 -4 Heavy Splint Mail +6 +3 -6 Banded Mail +7 +2 -7 Half-Plate +8 +1 -8 Full Plate +9 0 -8Masterwork list Light Padded +1 +8 0 Leather +2 +5 0 Studded Leather +3 +4 -1 Chain Shirt +4 +3 -1 Hide +4 +4 -2 Medium Scale Mail +5 +3 -3 Chainmail +6 +2 -4 Breastplate +5 +4 -3 Splint Mail +6 +3 -5 Heavy Banded Mail +7 +2 -6 Half-Plate +8 +1 -7 Full Plate +9 0 -7
s4dfish 10-20-04, 03:53 PM	Okay, Exotic Armor is worth .5 more than the max worth of the base catagory. So... Light Exotic Armor = 5.5 points Medium Exotic Armor = 6.5 points Heavy Exotic Armor = 7.5 points Very Heavy Exotic Armor = 8.5 points Interlocking is .5 cost armor characteristic that may only be found in exotic armor, it is indicated with an . For a description of this feature, see Races of Stone. Examples Light L1 +2 +10 +0 L2 +4 +4 -2 L3 +4 +3 -2 Medium M1 +5 +5 -3 M2 +6 +3 -4 M3* +6 +2 -4 Heavy H1 +8 +2 -6 H2 +9 +1 -8 H3* +9 +0 -8 Very Heavy VH +11 +0 -10
s4dfish 10-20-04, 10:10 PM	Okay more modifications. After conversations in another thread I'm going to increase the range of quality in each category (particularly in medium and heavy categories). Original values are first, followed by my first modification, and followed by this modification. Light Padded 4 4 4 Leather 4.5 4.25 4.5 Studded Leather 5 4.75 5 Chain Shirt 5.5 5 5.25 Medium Hide 4.25 5.25 4.5 Scale Mail 4.5 5.5 5 Chainmail 4.75 5.75 5.75 Breastplate 5.5 6 6 Heavy Splint Mail 4.25 6.0 5 Banded Mail 5 6.25 5.75 Half-Plate 5.25 6.5 6.5 Full Plate 7 6.75 6.75Okay so the following armor changes from my last attempt: Leather (back to normal) Studded Leather (back to normal) Chain Shirt (as last revision, but armor check 1 better) Hide (back to normal, but max Dex 1 better) Scale Mail (back to normal, but max Dex 1 better) Splint Mail (as last revision, but max Dex 2 worse) Banded Mail (as last revision, but max Dex 1 worse) New list looks like Light Padded +1 +8 0 Leather +2 +6 0 Studded Leather +3 +5 -1 Chain Shirt +4 +3 -1 Medium Hide +3 +5 -3 Scale Mail +4 +4 -4 Chainmail +6 +2 -5 Breastplate +5 +4 -4 Heavy Splint Mail +6 +1 -6 Banded Mail +7 +1 -7 Half-Plate +8 +1 -8 Full Plate +9 0 -8
StevenO 10-20-04, 11:20 PM	Changing the classification of the various armors sounds like a tricky way to get around proficiency requirements. I agree that most of the heavy armor needs a little modification to be more useful but a system that would allow a real fancy suit of full plate to be considered medium armor not the way to do it. Why change the rules when they aren't broken. It's interesting you found full plate to be the best armor followed by breastplate and chain shirts. A cursory glance tells you that those armors yield the best total AC provided you have the corresponding dexterity. By the time padded armor becomes that good regular clothing does almost as much good, especially if you allow clothing to be enchanted like armor.