Post/Author/DateTime	Post
IceFractal 04-05-05, 04:24 PM	Quite often, in D&D, the higher level you are the faster combat goes. Winning or losing initiative can be huge because combat is often decided in the first round. Even a prolonged combat doesn't go on longer than a few rounds unless one or both sides are teleporting around or hiding. The reason for this, I think, is that at high level offense far outstrips defense. For instance, you still have about the same chances against a spell, but now instead of mildly scorching you, that spell will insta-kill you or mind-control you. And even the defenses against these effects are all-or-nothing. Either the mind-control fails totally due to Mind Blank or SR, or it succeeds and you're dead. I want to change, that, make high level combat less all-or-nothing and less "insta-win/insta-lose". To that end I'm going to try to make up some house rules that will have that effect. But it's a big job, and the more people working on it, the better. So please post your ideas and houserules for how to do it.
IceFractal 04-05-05, 04:37 PM	Idea 1 - More HP: HP is a good mechanism for the effect we're trying to get, because it's gradual. You get slightly injured, then more injured, but you don't go straight from perfectly healthy to dead. That mechanism could be applied to other things as well. Here's Mental HP, and Vital HP. Mental HP is your mental resilience against mind-control and mental assaults. Your mental HD is based on your class (basically, Mental HP is higher for casters, lower for pure fighters, but also varying inversely to normal HP, which is why Clerics & Druids only have a d8). Paladins and Monks have their MHD boosted because they're particularly strong in their mental resilience). Instead of Constitution, your Charisma adds to your MHP. This fits pretty well and also makes Charisma less of a dump stat. Barbarian - 1d4 Bard - 1d8 Cleric - 1d8 Druid - 1d8 Fighter - 1d4 Monk - 1d10 Paladin - 1d8 Ranger - 1d6 Rogue - 1d6 Sorcerer - 1d12 Wizard - 1d10 Vital HP is your innate resistance to things that would outright kill you, like death spells and disintegration. Your VHP is equal to your Constitution score. Effects that would mind-control you in one way or another (Charm Person, Hold Person, Sleep, etc), first do damage to your MHP. If your MHP falls low enough, then the effect occurs. Otherwise, depending on how high your MHP is, it might partially occur or not occur at all. Spells that totally guard against mental effects now just give you Mental DR or Regeneration. Effects that would immediately kill you damage your VHP. When your VHP reachs 0, you die. If your VHP goes low enough, you might be seriously close to death and take certain penalties. Spells that totally guard against death effects now just give you Vital DR or Regeneration. I'll try to work out the specifics. Any ideas on that?
Kintara 04-05-05, 04:41 PM	Spells. That's going to be the sticking point, methinks. I hate to say it, but the best way I can think of to slow the combat is to nerf the full casters. Chop off the 9th, or even 8th level spells. Even with such extreme measures as that, there will still probably be a lot of insta-death options for spellcasters. Another helpful change might be to simply bump everyone's HD up a step. Keep the Barbarian at d12, but bump up his DR slightly. More HP = less dying. Edit: Ahh, I see you've been thinking along some similar lines. Coming up with damage rules for mental HP will take some work, but it might work out well. The problem I see is that the big spells will still knock out the characters weak to that particular attack pretty fast.
HailSpork 04-05-05, 04:59 PM	Why do sorcerers have more MHP than wizards? For death spells, I suggest reworking them to be more along the lines of the Death Domain power; roll for "Death Damage"; if that excedes their HP, they die. A fort save will reduce/negate the death damage, depending on the spell.
Kintara 04-05-05, 05:18 PM	Why do sorcerers have more MHP than wizards?A clearer sense of self? The real reason is probably balance. Edit: It can make sense. Sorcerers gain their powers from within, and so it makes sense that they would have a better grasp of what is happening to them (by knowing who they are, and why, in the first place). Wizards are more externally oriented. It also explains why Monks have a pretty good Die.
Ricky 04-06-05, 09:32 AM	The biggest problem is the save-or-die spells. They make the game to dangerous at high levels. I have not yet figured out how to modify them to make them workable, though.
BrainMole 04-06-05, 09:45 AM	One thing I hate is immunities... In high/epic levels the characters have allmost all kind of immunities making almost all spells and effects useless. I´d like to see some solution to this like this: 1: Immunities changed into diminished effect: Like cast a Dominate Person in a character immune to enchantments and if he failes he is not dominated but instead is charmed. Same for elemental damage, all have only a resistance. No immunities or immunities are extremely rare. This isn´t a much of a problem in a games below 20th level but in epic levels when everyone has rings of elemental immunities and such it is a nuisance. Ideas?
BrianD 04-06-05, 01:17 PM	A clearer sense of self? The real reason is probably balance. Edit: It can make sense. Sorcerers gain their powers from within, and so it makes sense that they would have a better grasp of what is happening to them (by knowing who they are, and why, in the first place). Wizards are more externally oriented. It also explains why Monks have a pretty good Die. If the MHD is based on Cha, then the sorcerer doesn't need it higher than the wizard, for the same reason the bookish scholarly wizard only gets 2 skill points per level -- their primary stat gives them enough anyway.
Kintara 04-06-05, 03:22 PM	If the MHD is based on Cha, then the sorcerer doesn't need it higher than the wizard, for the same reason the bookish scholarly wizard only gets 2 skill points per level -- their primary stat gives them enough anyway. Eh, it's only one HD type. You could make a similar case with Barbarians and Fighters, with regular HD.
Gnart 04-06-05, 04:58 PM	I have been working with that myself. The problem was before I was half done with a decent solution, I had made a whole new rpg system :) The spells sytem need to be totally redesigned for it to work, since you take away allot of power from the spellcasters, you have to balance it some way. (most fighters can make instakills on a wizzard if they get a full attack :). So if you downgrade magic to a damage potential on par with weapons, you need to up its versality. As a fix howerver I like your idea with mental and vital hp, there are still some questions on how you are partially affected by a spell. (either roleplay the effect, or it could be some rounds of stun.) Another idea could be to use the fix from hold person. you get a save each round to shake the effect. You could then add a stat drain on failed saves Each round you fail your save you lose spell level (or spell level *½) to will, con, or dex (depending on the save, when the stat reaches 0 you take the full effect, else you have managed to shake the effect and will recover your lost stat over some time (days as normla or shorter???). anyway keep up the good work, and keep us posted with other good ideas :)
IceFractal 04-08-05, 02:38 PM	Hopefully the MHP should have that effect, of making spells less all-or-nothing. For instance, Mind Blank would grant Mental DR 15/- or 20/- instead of just immunity. I'm unsure how much mental damage spells should cause though, because of the large disparity between low and high MHP characters. Fighter with 8 Cha: 1st level: 3 10th level: 17 20th level: 32 Sorcerer with 20 Cha: 1st level: 17 10th level: 120 20th level: 235 I guess you could say the same disparity exists between a Wizard with 8 Con and a Barbarian with 20 Con, but I'm still unsure how much damage things should cause. Looking at the fighter, something like (Spell Level + Casting Stat Bonus) seems appropriate, whereas looking at the Sorcerer, something more like 1d6/CL seems better.
Kintara 04-09-05, 04:14 AM	I don't think it's really worth it to keep something like Disintegrate around if it simply does damage. Yes, it can kill you, but so can a fireball. The MHP stuff has a similar problem, but I can see it fitting a bit better. I think it would be better, honestly, if you simply excised out the spells that have this all-or-nothing mechanic. If that's what you want to avoid, then make it happen. Don't bother changing them. If that removes too many effects that you like (like, perhaps, certain mind-control spells), then re-work them to an appropriate level of extremity, or change the scale. Make mind control an out of combat ability, but maybe it works better over the long term. Edit: One good way of keeping magic powerful, but removing the tactical lethality, is to make spells more strategic. In other words, change the scale. Make spells slower but durationally longer or affecting a wider area.
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-11-05, 07:15 AM	The biggest problem is the save-or-die spells. They make the game to dangerous at high levels. I have not yet figured out how to modify them to make them workable, though. Actually save or die spells are fairly easy to fix if you're willing to rule 0. It just means increasing the saves on characters and monsters. This can be as complex as a new save system (the old one sucks anyway) or as easy as "everyone gets an extra +1 to saves for every 4 character levels you possess". In addition, you probably want to make all non-feat bonuses to a given save DC the same type so they don't stack. That way you don't run into huge DC death attacks or anything by people just stacking magical items. The real trouble at high level is not from save or dies, but rather no save death spells, like Otto's irresistable dance and spells like time stop that grant extra actions. Besides that, fixing caster combat spells can be as simple as limiting the game to using only a single free metamagic effect (such as from a metarod or incanatrix ability) to once per round. Then of course there are spells like gate which just shouldn't exist. While high level direct attack spells are very powerful, I don't find them all that difficult to nerf into balance, because generally caster imbalances are plainly obvious. Balancing buff based casters tends to be much tougher. You'll likely have more trouble figuring out how to be best nerf a druid than you will fixing the wizard.
Gilean 04-11-05, 08:33 AM	Make instadeath spells only cause 3d6 (or 4, or 5) consitution damage. Similarly, make domination and hold effects cause temporary charisma damage. That should do it. No need for new mechanics.