Charisma Bonus Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charisma Bonus Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sorvikcorsair
04-16-05, 08:18 PM it was stated on another post about giving charisma based bonus feats for all classes. Here is the chart I am using for my campaigns. It covers the normal stats to a grossly overpowered campaign (believe me I have seen modifiers of 50)

To read this you look at your modifier, find it on the chart and then get bonus feats at the levels listed. The chart can be expanded using the same patterns.

Any comments, suggestions?

Charisma Bonus Feats by Charisma Modifier
1-5 6-14 15-29 30-49 50+
5 5 3 3 3
15 10 9 6 6
20 15 15 9 9
30 20 23 15 12
35 25 29 18 15
40 30 34 21 18
50 35 39 27 21
Haksaw
04-16-05, 09:34 PM Like you mentioned, it there can be creatures with a +50 Cha bonus...but these creatures are generally powerful in there own right.

I don't know if an angel with a +10 Charisma bonus needs an extra feat for having a 5th (and probably a 10th) level character class.

Does the feat apply retroactively, a la Constitution? Say a 12th level elf with an original 20 charisma has raised it to 22, giving him +6 Charisma bonus. He had a bonus feat at 5th level, does he now gain the bonus feat from 10th level?

There should probably be some restrictions on the feats available as well. The primary draw of the fighter class is the utility and variety of combat related feats that are offered as bonuses. Essentially, this chart gives Sorcerers, Bards and Paladins access to bonus feats that could potentially unbalance their classes. I don't think that the Charisma factor should strictly give bonuses; I am a firm believer that all positives must have counterbalanced negatives. Under the proposed chart, no one is penalized.

If the proposed system is to implemented, it needs to have weight on both the positive and negative side, and must be metered out in a fashion that reflects its importance. A high charisma shouldn't give a character access to Cleave. Leadership, metamagic feats, performance feats...there may be merit in this avenue.

edit: "there" to "their" - cripes
sorvikcorsair
04-17-05, 01:42 AM Like you mentioned, it there can be creatures with a +50 Cha bonus...but these creatures are generally powerful in there own right.

I don't know if an angel with a +10 Charisma bonus needs an extra feat for having a 5th (and probably a 10th) level character class.

Does the feat apply retroactively, a la Constitution? Say a 12th level elf with an original 20 charisma has raised it to 22, giving him +6 Charisma bonus. He had a bonus feat at 5th level, does he now gain the bonus feat from 10th level?

There should probably be some restrictions on the feats available as well. The primary draw of the fighter class is the utility and variety of combat related feats that are offered as bonuses. Essentially, this chart gives Sorcerers, Bards and Paladins access to bonus feats that could potentially unbalance their classes. I don't think that the Charisma factor should strictly give bonuses; I am a firm believer that all positives must have counterbalanced negatives. Under the proposed chart, no one is penalized.

If the proposed system is to implemented, it needs to have weight on both the positive and negative side, and must be metered out in a fashion that reflects its importance. A high charisma shouldn't give a character access to Cleave. Leadership, metamagic feats, performance feats...there may be merit in this avenue.

edit: "there" to "their" - cripes

Ok, forgot to clarify. The bonus feats would be like Intelligence and skills. If you don't have the modifier at that level you don't get it. This isn't set in stone, this is just what I have. At level 18 my PCs aren't even reaching 30 charisma if they dump all their stat adjustments into it with an 18 starting.

It is a house rule meaning no one HAS to use it. I don't allow half angels/fiends in my campaigns (cept evil npcs). So I don't have to worry about a PC reaching 100 charisma.

This will reward those with a charisma stat, but it will also make PCs who just use the stat as a dump think that perhaps if they use it they might get something out of it.

ATM I haven't seen to put restrictions on it. So far the MOST bonus feats I have handed out was to a warmage at level 18 who got the 3 bonus feats. I haven't seen this unbalance the game, perhaps restricting the bonus feats to being skill/ability/weapon/spell focus might work as well.

I don't see however why someone should be penalized on the chart. It is for bonuses, and it can be adopted to a different stat, but the previous thread it was convicing that charisma should be a good place to put this...

-90% of the time dump stat.
-CHA is your force of personality, how strong you are as a person per say.

Someone with a strong sense of self might be able to get more accomplished during the time that others are 'training' for their feats.

It was just an idea, thought I would share what I am using.
MadBlue
04-17-05, 05:14 AM As the one who started the original Bonus Feats for Charisma thread, I thought I'd chime in.

If I'm reading the chart right, it appears that a character with a 14 Charisma would get 4 bonus Feats over 20 levels, while a character with a Charisma score of 15 would only get 3 bonus Feats over 20 levels. By 35th level "typical characters" (those with a Charisma score between 6 and 14) would get a full 7 bonus Feats, while a character with a 29 Charisma would have to wait until 39th level to get get their 7th bonus Feat.

IMHO, each +1/-1 of Charisma modifier should make a difference. Someone with a Charisma of 6 just isn't going to have as strong a sense of self and force of personality to qualify them for the same benefits as someone with a 14 Charisma.

If you're giving the same bonus Feats for a 6 Charisma as a 14 Charisma, and not giving more Feats over 20 levels until you hit a 30 Charisma, how does that make players reconsider using Charisma as a dump-stat or reward those who don't?

MadBlue
ff6shadow
04-17-05, 08:10 AM You chart is a little funny, with the 15-29 actually getting less feats most of the time.

L10 L20
1-5 1 3
6-14 2 4
15-29 2 3
30-49 3 5
50+ 3 6

Clearly an issue. Maybe something like this:

1-3 4-5 6-8 9-10 11-13 14-15 16-18 19-20 21-23 24-25 26-28
10 10 09 09 08 08 07 07 06 06 5
20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10
30 28 27 25 24 22 21 19 18 16 15
40 37 36 33 32 29 28 25 24 21 20
50 46 45 41 40 36 35 31 30 26 25
60 55 54 49 48 43 42 37 36 31 30
krichaiushii
04-17-05, 08:34 AM Also, if my Charisma is artifically high due to a magic item or spell, and said spell or item goes away, do I lose the feat?

I should.

What if this bonus feat were the keystone feat for a whole chain, and I lose it due to reduced Charisma? Does it then invalidate the rest of my feats, perhaps taken normally?

IIRC, there are both poisons and creatures that can reduce Charisma, sometimes permanently. Do I lose feats for this? I should definitely lose the bonus feats, as I no longer qualify for them.

I agree with Haksaw's misgivings about no penalities. Perhaps reworking the chain so that lower (below 8 or 6) Charisma actually COSTS you a feat - punishing those who use Charisma as a dump stat.

All that aside, it might be simpler to regularly use the Charisma-based skill checks in your game - for all PCs, not just the party "face". While not combat related, they are there for a reason. Indeed, perhaps NPCs have a tendency to disregard or ignore those with lower than average Charismas (9 or lower).
ff6shadow
04-17-05, 08:43 AM I'd have the bonus feats function the same way as skill ponts. Magical enhancements have no effect on them at all.

As for permanently losing Charisma, I'm not sure how the rules handle losing Int permanently and how it affects skill points, but I'd rule that you aren't going to lose what you know, the loss just effetcs what you have the capability to learn from that point on. You would keep the feat.
sorvikcorsair
04-17-05, 10:20 AM I did have a misprint, but I don't have time to rewrite it atm. Will be back home in about 18 hours after work, will respond to the thread then.

And I don't believe that if someone uses a stat as a dump you should penalize what they get from their class. Granted a fighter doesn't need cha as much, but why should they lose what their class and levels in right gives them?
Haksaw
04-17-05, 10:28 AM Has the issue of the charts scale become an issue? I think that as ff6shadow mentioned, from a character standpoint there is not point in having the chart out to +50 bonus. At epic level, you may branch into this territory, but for a standard character (PHB), the highest possible bonus for a base race at 8th level would be a +5 (Cha = 20 = 18 roll, +1 @ 4th +1 @ 8th).

This character is on his way to achieving the 15th level bonus feat for having +5...but short of magical permanent stat manipulation, there is no way the character can break into the the +6 bracket in time to get the 10th level bonus feat. ff6shadows chart is balanced much more like wizards' spell progression; it is applicable at all levels and over a larger spread of bonuses.

I don't think that negative bonuses (-1 to -5 range) should deny a character feats completely. However, I propose a one level delay of regularly acquired feats. This would reflect a characters low personal magnetism, presence and comparative advancement potential compared to his peers. (Balistan's a great fighter, don't get me wrong...he'll just never have panache like Tandru, and they joined the king's guard together...)

Very interesting discussion. It adds a certain amount of character developmental weight to a stat that is normally only reflected by the DC of a sorcerer's spell or the power of a cleric's turn.
sorvikcorsair
04-18-05, 06:14 PM “House Rule: Bonus Feats by Charisma Modifier

If this rule is used it will grant your PCs (and NPCs if you wish) bonus feats based on their charisma modifier. This works much like the relationship of skills and intelligence modifier.

Refer to the chart below. When you have a charisma modifier of +2 at level 6, then increase it to a modifier of +3 at level 7, you do NOT gain the bonus feat for a +3 modifier from level 6.

Like intelligence and skills you do not gain bonus feats from magical charisma bonuses UNLESS you have had the bonus continuously from the last level to the next. Ex. If at level 8 someone casts permanency Eagle’s Splendor on you to give you a +6 modifier to charisma. Because the effect lasted the whole time from level to level you will gain the bonus feat at level 9. However, if someone dispelled the effect for even 1 round you will not gain that bonus feat.

If you ever drop below the minimum for some reason, like in last example, after you have gained the bonus feat you do NOT lose the feat. If you learn something you cannot forget it unless the spell specifically grants that effect.

Bonus Feats by Charisma Modifier
1-2 3-4 5-6 7-8 9-10 11-13 14-16 17-19 20+
7 6 4 4 3 2 3 2 2
14 13 9 8 7 6 6 5 4
21 20 14 12 11 10 9 8 6
Total 28 27 19 16 15 14 12 11 8
by L30: 4 4 5 7 7 8 10 10 17

From a modifier of 1-2 to 3-4 you do not gain more feats by level 30, you just gain them 1 level sooner. With a modifier of 5-6 you gain 1 more feat than you would of by level 30. With a modifier of 6-8 you gain 2 more feats and with a modifier of 9-10 you gain those feats one level sooner. This pattern continues until a modifier of 20 or more, in which case you gain bonus feats as a fighter, every even level.

If you have a charisma modifier below 0, -1 to -5, you gain your feats one level later than usual. This does not affect bonus feats from classes.”

How does this look instead? This way no one becomes extremely overpowered at low levels and it doesn’t affect game play too much. This way you do not gain extreme bonus feats without a charisma score of 50 or more.

This also penalizes those who put less than 2 points (point buy) into charisma. 3 extra feats before epic can make a difference for many classes that would rather not put the points into charisma.

Comments?
MadBlue
04-19-05, 10:27 AM I was reading the chart wrong before. I thought that by "Charisma Modifier" you were talking about "Charisma Score" - as I'd think of a Charisma score of 50 as being grossly overpowered, considering Aphrodite "only" has a 47 Charisma. :eek:

Why differentiate between bands of modifiers, rather than the modifiers themselves, though? Why does a 12 Charisma and a 15 Charisma grant the same benefit when their modifiers differ?

It seems like what you want to do is:

1) Grant additional Feats to everyone

and

2) Grant bonus Feats to characters with high Charisma scores

Not to sound my own horn, but if that's the case, why not:

1) Change Level-based Feats from every 3 levels to every 2 levels (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th...) - which gives 3 extra Feats to everyone by 20th level

and

2) Use a "Bonus Feats for Charisma" formula like this:

Cha - Bonus Feat at
12-13 - Lvl 1
14-15 - Lvl 1 and 4
16-17 - Lvl 1, 4 and 8
18-19 - Lvl 1, 4, 8 and 12
20-21 - Lvl 1, 4, 8, 12 and 16
22-23 - Lvl 1, 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20
etc.

and restrict Charisma bonus Feats to Feats that could be innate, a knack, or drawn from a personal resource (for example, Alertness, Extra Rage or Draconic Heritage would be OK, but Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Forge Ring or Whirlwind Attack would be right out).

On the flip side, every point of Charisma penalty could give a Flaw (such as those in UA, Dragon magazine, or elsewhere on these boards) at 1st level.

Of course with a Charisma modifier of +20 you'd be getting 20 bonus Feats while a character with a Charisma modifier of +0 would be getting no bonus Feats, but it would take you 80 levels to collect all those Feats. Meanwhile the guy with the Constitution bonus of +20 gets 1,600 bonus HP and a +20 Fort Save over 80 levels while the guy with the +0 bonus doesn't get squat.

MadBlue
cambric
04-21-05, 01:39 PM Not to sound my own horn, but if that's the case, why not:

1) Change Level-based Feats from every 3 levels to every 2 levels (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th...) - which gives 3 extra Feats to everyone by 20th level

and

2) Use a "Bonus Feats for Charisma" formula like this:

Cha - Bonus Feat at
12-13 - Lvl 1
14-15 - Lvl 1 and 4
16-17 - Lvl 1, 4 and 8
18-19 - Lvl 1, 4, 8 and 12
20-21 - Lvl 1, 4, 8, 12 and 16
22-23 - Lvl 1, 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20
etc.

and restrict Charisma bonus Feats to Feats that could be innate, a knack, or drawn from a personal resource (for example, Alertness, Extra Rage or Draconic Heritage would be OK, but Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Forge Ring or Whirlwind Attack would be right out).

On the flip side, every point of Charisma penalty could give a Flaw (such as those in UA, Dragon magazine, or elsewhere on these boards) at 1st level.

Of course with a Charisma modifier of +20 you'd be getting 20 bonus Feats while a character with a Charisma modifier of +0 would be getting no bonus Feats, but it would take you 80 levels to collect all those Feats. Meanwhile the guy with the Constitution bonus of +20 gets 1,600 bonus HP and a +20 Fort Save over 80 levels while the guy with the +0 bonus doesn't get squat.

MadBlue

Using MadBlue's idea, I have incorporated this in my current campaign. My players just got to 4th level and it's working out very well. Out of the 5 PC's, one did not get any bonus...one got only one at first level...two will get an extra one at 8th level...and only one will get one at 12th. The nice thing, Charisma is no longer a "dump" stat...it did make them "think" on how to put in their stats and now when they meet NPC's, it's a bit more realistic for them to talk well...instead of them speaking as if they had a 18 charisma, instead of the 8 they had written down.

Cam
Chemlak
04-21-05, 05:00 PM A thought - why not simply ditch the standard 1 every three levels feat progression, and move onto something like this:

Feats are gained at a rate of 1 every 3 levels (with one feat always gained at 1st level). For every point of permanent Charisma Bonus the character has, their next feat(s) is/are gained 1 level early.

So, we get

Cha Bon - Feats gained at level
-5: 8, 11, 14, 17, 20
-4: 7, 10, 13, 16, 19
-3: 6, 9, 12, 15, 18
-2: 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20
-1: 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19
0: 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18
+1: 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20
+2: 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19
+3: 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18
+4: 1, 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20
+5: 1, 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19
+6: 1, 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18
etc.

This means that characters don't have a vastly accelerated rate of feat access unless they have seriously focused on Charisma, and gives a penalty for low Cha.

My 2cp

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sorvikcorsair 04-16-05, 08:18 PM	it was stated on another post about giving charisma based bonus feats for all classes. Here is the chart I am using for my campaigns. It covers the normal stats to a grossly overpowered campaign (believe me I have seen modifiers of 50) To read this you look at your modifier, find it on the chart and then get bonus feats at the levels listed. The chart can be expanded using the same patterns. Any comments, suggestions? Charisma Bonus Feats by Charisma Modifier 1-5 6-14 15-29 30-49 50+ 5 5 3 3 3 15 10 9 6 6 20 15 15 9 9 30 20 23 15 12 35 25 29 18 15 40 30 34 21 18 50 35 39 27 21
Haksaw 04-16-05, 09:34 PM	Like you mentioned, it there can be creatures with a +50 Cha bonus...but these creatures are generally powerful in there own right. I don't know if an angel with a +10 Charisma bonus needs an extra feat for having a 5th (and probably a 10th) level character class. Does the feat apply retroactively, a la Constitution? Say a 12th level elf with an original 20 charisma has raised it to 22, giving him +6 Charisma bonus. He had a bonus feat at 5th level, does he now gain the bonus feat from 10th level? There should probably be some restrictions on the feats available as well. The primary draw of the fighter class is the utility and variety of combat related feats that are offered as bonuses. Essentially, this chart gives Sorcerers, Bards and Paladins access to bonus feats that could potentially unbalance their classes. I don't think that the Charisma factor should strictly give bonuses; I am a firm believer that all positives must have counterbalanced negatives. Under the proposed chart, no one is penalized. If the proposed system is to implemented, it needs to have weight on both the positive and negative side, and must be metered out in a fashion that reflects its importance. A high charisma shouldn't give a character access to Cleave. Leadership, metamagic feats, performance feats...there may be merit in this avenue. edit: "there" to "their" - cripes
sorvikcorsair 04-17-05, 01:42 AM	Like you mentioned, it there can be creatures with a +50 Cha bonus...but these creatures are generally powerful in there own right. I don't know if an angel with a +10 Charisma bonus needs an extra feat for having a 5th (and probably a 10th) level character class. Does the feat apply retroactively, a la Constitution? Say a 12th level elf with an original 20 charisma has raised it to 22, giving him +6 Charisma bonus. He had a bonus feat at 5th level, does he now gain the bonus feat from 10th level? There should probably be some restrictions on the feats available as well. The primary draw of the fighter class is the utility and variety of combat related feats that are offered as bonuses. Essentially, this chart gives Sorcerers, Bards and Paladins access to bonus feats that could potentially unbalance their classes. I don't think that the Charisma factor should strictly give bonuses; I am a firm believer that all positives must have counterbalanced negatives. Under the proposed chart, no one is penalized. If the proposed system is to implemented, it needs to have weight on both the positive and negative side, and must be metered out in a fashion that reflects its importance. A high charisma shouldn't give a character access to Cleave. Leadership, metamagic feats, performance feats...there may be merit in this avenue. edit: "there" to "their" - cripes Ok, forgot to clarify. The bonus feats would be like Intelligence and skills. If you don't have the modifier at that level you don't get it. This isn't set in stone, this is just what I have. At level 18 my PCs aren't even reaching 30 charisma if they dump all their stat adjustments into it with an 18 starting. It is a house rule meaning no one HAS to use it. I don't allow half angels/fiends in my campaigns (cept evil npcs). So I don't have to worry about a PC reaching 100 charisma. This will reward those with a charisma stat, but it will also make PCs who just use the stat as a dump think that perhaps if they use it they might get something out of it. ATM I haven't seen to put restrictions on it. So far the MOST bonus feats I have handed out was to a warmage at level 18 who got the 3 bonus feats. I haven't seen this unbalance the game, perhaps restricting the bonus feats to being skill/ability/weapon/spell focus might work as well. I don't see however why someone should be penalized on the chart. It is for bonuses, and it can be adopted to a different stat, but the previous thread it was convicing that charisma should be a good place to put this... -90% of the time dump stat. -CHA is your force of personality, how strong you are as a person per say. Someone with a strong sense of self might be able to get more accomplished during the time that others are 'training' for their feats. It was just an idea, thought I would share what I am using.
MadBlue 04-17-05, 05:14 AM	As the one who started the original Bonus Feats for Charisma thread, I thought I'd chime in. If I'm reading the chart right, it appears that a character with a 14 Charisma would get 4 bonus Feats over 20 levels, while a character with a Charisma score of 15 would only get 3 bonus Feats over 20 levels. By 35th level "typical characters" (those with a Charisma score between 6 and 14) would get a full 7 bonus Feats, while a character with a 29 Charisma would have to wait until 39th level to get get their 7th bonus Feat. IMHO, each +1/-1 of Charisma modifier should make a difference. Someone with a Charisma of 6 just isn't going to have as strong a sense of self and force of personality to qualify them for the same benefits as someone with a 14 Charisma. If you're giving the same bonus Feats for a 6 Charisma as a 14 Charisma, and not giving more Feats over 20 levels until you hit a 30 Charisma, how does that make players reconsider using Charisma as a dump-stat or reward those who don't? MadBlue
ff6shadow 04-17-05, 08:10 AM	You chart is a little funny, with the 15-29 actually getting less feats most of the time. L10 L20 1-5 1 3 6-14 2 4 15-29 2 3 30-49 3 5 50+ 3 6 Clearly an issue. Maybe something like this: 1-3 4-5 6-8 9-10 11-13 14-15 16-18 19-20 21-23 24-25 26-28 10 10 09 09 08 08 07 07 06 06 5 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 30 28 27 25 24 22 21 19 18 16 15 40 37 36 33 32 29 28 25 24 21 20 50 46 45 41 40 36 35 31 30 26 25 60 55 54 49 48 43 42 37 36 31 30
krichaiushii 04-17-05, 08:34 AM	Also, if my Charisma is artifically high due to a magic item or spell, and said spell or item goes away, do I lose the feat? I should. What if this bonus feat were the keystone feat for a whole chain, and I lose it due to reduced Charisma? Does it then invalidate the rest of my feats, perhaps taken normally? IIRC, there are both poisons and creatures that can reduce Charisma, sometimes permanently. Do I lose feats for this? I should definitely lose the bonus feats, as I no longer qualify for them. I agree with Haksaw's misgivings about no penalities. Perhaps reworking the chain so that lower (below 8 or 6) Charisma actually COSTS you a feat - punishing those who use Charisma as a dump stat. All that aside, it might be simpler to regularly use the Charisma-based skill checks in your game - for all PCs, not just the party "face". While not combat related, they are there for a reason. Indeed, perhaps NPCs have a tendency to disregard or ignore those with lower than average Charismas (9 or lower).
ff6shadow 04-17-05, 08:43 AM	I'd have the bonus feats function the same way as skill ponts. Magical enhancements have no effect on them at all. As for permanently losing Charisma, I'm not sure how the rules handle losing Int permanently and how it affects skill points, but I'd rule that you aren't going to lose what you know, the loss just effetcs what you have the capability to learn from that point on. You would keep the feat.
sorvikcorsair 04-17-05, 10:20 AM	I did have a misprint, but I don't have time to rewrite it atm. Will be back home in about 18 hours after work, will respond to the thread then. And I don't believe that if someone uses a stat as a dump you should penalize what they get from their class. Granted a fighter doesn't need cha as much, but why should they lose what their class and levels in right gives them?
Haksaw 04-17-05, 10:28 AM	Has the issue of the charts scale become an issue? I think that as ff6shadow mentioned, from a character standpoint there is not point in having the chart out to +50 bonus. At epic level, you may branch into this territory, but for a standard character (PHB), the highest possible bonus for a base race at 8th level would be a +5 (Cha = 20 = 18 roll, +1 @ 4th +1 @ 8th). This character is on his way to achieving the 15th level bonus feat for having +5...but short of magical permanent stat manipulation, there is no way the character can break into the the +6 bracket in time to get the 10th level bonus feat. ff6shadows chart is balanced much more like wizards' spell progression; it is applicable at all levels and over a larger spread of bonuses. I don't think that negative bonuses (-1 to -5 range) should deny a character feats completely. However, I propose a one level delay of regularly acquired feats. This would reflect a characters low personal magnetism, presence and comparative advancement potential compared to his peers. (Balistan's a great fighter, don't get me wrong...he'll just never have panache like Tandru, and they joined the king's guard together...) Very interesting discussion. It adds a certain amount of character developmental weight to a stat that is normally only reflected by the DC of a sorcerer's spell or the power of a cleric's turn.
sorvikcorsair 04-18-05, 06:14 PM	“House Rule: Bonus Feats by Charisma Modifier If this rule is used it will grant your PCs (and NPCs if you wish) bonus feats based on their charisma modifier. This works much like the relationship of skills and intelligence modifier. Refer to the chart below. When you have a charisma modifier of +2 at level 6, then increase it to a modifier of +3 at level 7, you do NOT gain the bonus feat for a +3 modifier from level 6. Like intelligence and skills you do not gain bonus feats from magical charisma bonuses UNLESS you have had the bonus continuously from the last level to the next. Ex. If at level 8 someone casts permanency Eagle’s Splendor on you to give you a +6 modifier to charisma. Because the effect lasted the whole time from level to level you will gain the bonus feat at level 9. However, if someone dispelled the effect for even 1 round you will not gain that bonus feat. If you ever drop below the minimum for some reason, like in last example, after you have gained the bonus feat you do NOT lose the feat. If you learn something you cannot forget it unless the spell specifically grants that effect. Bonus Feats by Charisma Modifier 1-2 3-4 5-6 7-8 9-10 11-13 14-16 17-19 20+ 7 6 4 4 3 2 3 2 2 14 13 9 8 7 6 6 5 4 21 20 14 12 11 10 9 8 6 Total 28 27 19 16 15 14 12 11 8 by L30: 4 4 5 7 7 8 10 10 17 From a modifier of 1-2 to 3-4 you do not gain more feats by level 30, you just gain them 1 level sooner. With a modifier of 5-6 you gain 1 more feat than you would of by level 30. With a modifier of 6-8 you gain 2 more feats and with a modifier of 9-10 you gain those feats one level sooner. This pattern continues until a modifier of 20 or more, in which case you gain bonus feats as a fighter, every even level. If you have a charisma modifier below 0, -1 to -5, you gain your feats one level later than usual. This does not affect bonus feats from classes.” How does this look instead? This way no one becomes extremely overpowered at low levels and it doesn’t affect game play too much. This way you do not gain extreme bonus feats without a charisma score of 50 or more. This also penalizes those who put less than 2 points (point buy) into charisma. 3 extra feats before epic can make a difference for many classes that would rather not put the points into charisma. Comments?
MadBlue 04-19-05, 10:27 AM	I was reading the chart wrong before. I thought that by "Charisma Modifier" you were talking about "Charisma Score" - as I'd think of a Charisma score of 50 as being grossly overpowered, considering Aphrodite "only" has a 47 Charisma. :eek: Why differentiate between bands of modifiers, rather than the modifiers themselves, though? Why does a 12 Charisma and a 15 Charisma grant the same benefit when their modifiers differ? It seems like what you want to do is: 1) Grant additional Feats to everyone and 2) Grant bonus Feats to characters with high Charisma scores Not to sound my own horn, but if that's the case, why not: 1) Change Level-based Feats from every 3 levels to every 2 levels (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th...) - which gives 3 extra Feats to everyone by 20th level and 2) Use a "Bonus Feats for Charisma" formula like this: Cha - Bonus Feat at 12-13 - Lvl 1 14-15 - Lvl 1 and 4 16-17 - Lvl 1, 4 and 8 18-19 - Lvl 1, 4, 8 and 12 20-21 - Lvl 1, 4, 8, 12 and 16 22-23 - Lvl 1, 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 etc. and restrict Charisma bonus Feats to Feats that could be innate, a knack, or drawn from a personal resource (for example, Alertness, Extra Rage or Draconic Heritage would be OK, but Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Forge Ring or Whirlwind Attack would be right out). On the flip side, every point of Charisma penalty could give a Flaw (such as those in UA, Dragon magazine, or elsewhere on these boards) at 1st level. Of course with a Charisma modifier of +20 you'd be getting 20 bonus Feats while a character with a Charisma modifier of +0 would be getting no bonus Feats, but it would take you 80 levels to collect all those Feats. Meanwhile the guy with the Constitution bonus of +20 gets 1,600 bonus HP and a +20 Fort Save over 80 levels while the guy with the +0 bonus doesn't get squat. MadBlue
cambric 04-21-05, 01:39 PM	Not to sound my own horn, but if that's the case, why not: 1) Change Level-based Feats from every 3 levels to every 2 levels (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th...) - which gives 3 extra Feats to everyone by 20th level and 2) Use a "Bonus Feats for Charisma" formula like this: Cha - Bonus Feat at 12-13 - Lvl 1 14-15 - Lvl 1 and 4 16-17 - Lvl 1, 4 and 8 18-19 - Lvl 1, 4, 8 and 12 20-21 - Lvl 1, 4, 8, 12 and 16 22-23 - Lvl 1, 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 etc. and restrict Charisma bonus Feats to Feats that could be innate, a knack, or drawn from a personal resource (for example, Alertness, Extra Rage or Draconic Heritage would be OK, but Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Forge Ring or Whirlwind Attack would be right out). On the flip side, every point of Charisma penalty could give a Flaw (such as those in UA, Dragon magazine, or elsewhere on these boards) at 1st level. Of course with a Charisma modifier of +20 you'd be getting 20 bonus Feats while a character with a Charisma modifier of +0 would be getting no bonus Feats, but it would take you 80 levels to collect all those Feats. Meanwhile the guy with the Constitution bonus of +20 gets 1,600 bonus HP and a +20 Fort Save over 80 levels while the guy with the +0 bonus doesn't get squat. MadBlue Using MadBlue's idea, I have incorporated this in my current campaign. My players just got to 4th level and it's working out very well. Out of the 5 PC's, one did not get any bonus...one got only one at first level...two will get an extra one at 8th level...and only one will get one at 12th. The nice thing, Charisma is no longer a "dump" stat...it did make them "think" on how to put in their stats and now when they meet NPC's, it's a bit more realistic for them to talk well...instead of them speaking as if they had a 18 charisma, instead of the 8 they had written down. Cam
Chemlak 04-21-05, 05:00 PM	A thought - why not simply ditch the standard 1 every three levels feat progression, and move onto something like this: Feats are gained at a rate of 1 every 3 levels (with one feat always gained at 1st level). For every point of permanent Charisma Bonus the character has, their next feat(s) is/are gained 1 level early. So, we get Cha Bon - Feats gained at level -5: 8, 11, 14, 17, 20 -4: 7, 10, 13, 16, 19 -3: 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 -2: 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20 -1: 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19 0: 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 +1: 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20 +2: 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19 +3: 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 +4: 1, 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20 +5: 1, 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19 +6: 1, 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 etc. This means that characters don't have a vastly accelerated rate of feat access unless they have seriously focused on Charisma, and gives a penalty for low Cha. My 2cp