Charisma checks as DM hints [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charisma checks as DM hints [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
InsertNameHere
10-13-06, 11:39 AM I had an idea recently that would make Charisma matter while allowing me to keep my puzzles confusing: Allow Charisma checks as DM hints similar to a Knowledge check. Yes, it's more of an Intellegence/Luck type thing, but I think it works well.

For example, say the players have to find the one room that's not moving in a house with rearranging rooms. A Charisma check might give them the hints to map the house or place a 10-foot pole in a doorway.
RobbyPants
10-13-06, 11:47 AM I would lean more toward Int (knowledge and reasoning), or maybe Wis (intuition and perception).

Cha has always struck me as more of a force of will type thing, having very little to do with cognative thought, and more to do with intra-personal relationships and social dealings.

I tend to think of high Int = booksmart and high Wis = clever
InsertNameHere
10-13-06, 11:51 AM I would lean more toward Int (knowledge and reasoning), or maybe Wis (intuition and perception).

Cha has always struck me as more of a force of will type thing, having very little to do with cognative thought, and more to do with intra-personal relationships and social dealings.

I tend to think of high Int = booksmart and high Wis = clever
Yeah, I realize that it's hard to justify this flavor-wise. Mostly an excuse to have Cha do something.
RobbyPants
10-13-06, 12:03 PM Yeah, I realize that it's hard to justify this flavor-wise. Mostly an excuse to have Cha do something.
It does - but just mostly in intra-personal relationships and social situations.

There are some game effects in combat for Cha:

Feinting - a good way for a rogue to get in a melee sneack attack when he can't flank. - uses Bluff.
Demorilizing opponents (Samurai have a better version of this - staredown). - uses Intimidate.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
10-13-06, 01:01 PM On the topic of charisma not having enough mechanical functions, I let my players add their charisma modifier to action points gained per lvl.
Pellanor
10-13-06, 03:27 PM While we're at it, why not make Str govern your Hint checks, I mean it applies just as well, right?

As always when I see a post like this, I must point out: Charaisma is an All or Nothing stat. No fighter will boost his Cha, regardless of what benefits you associate with it, unless he's doing so for RP reasons rather than mechanical reasons. If you happen to make a change where Cha is so good that Fighters want to boost their Cha score, then Sorcerers and other Cha based classes will be so horribly overpowered (as if they weren't the most synergetic already) that it would make no sense (mechanically) to play anything but.

Look at it this way: Almost all sorcerers dump Strength. Allmost all Fighters dump Charisma. Boosting Cha to the point were Fighters want to put points/good rolls into it would be the same as boosting Str to the point where Sorcerers want to put points/good rolls into it.

Back to hints: I personally don't like them. If my character has ranks in Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) then I expect to be able to make a skill check to be able to figure out some aspect of a moving rooms puzzle. However if my character doesn't have that knowledge, then I should have to brute force my way through the puzzle, just as my character would.
X-Codes
10-14-06, 01:26 AM Back to hints: I personally don't like them. If my character has ranks in Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) then I expect to be able to make a skill check to be able to figure out some aspect of a moving rooms puzzle. However if my character doesn't have that knowledge, then I should have to brute force my way through the puzzle, just as my character would.
They have some redeeming value. They can act as the uncharacteristic "Moment of Clarity" that the big, dumb brute has in various TV shows where he actually comes up with a good plan or has the right idea, etc.

Besides, with the right support Intimidate can become a *very* powerful skill. In fact, it already is with ToB.
OneWinged4ngel
10-17-06, 02:42 AM Yeah, I realize that it's hard to justify this flavor-wise. Mostly an excuse to have Cha do something.

Why not make Cha do something relevant flavorwise? Like affect action point use.
questionc
10-17-06, 07:53 PM Honestly, the best cure for charisma's 'uselessness' is to just use skill checks.

I like keeping the dice rolling, so in non-combat situations I throw out skill checks at the players. I've found that outside combat, all the checks are pretty much charisma-based skill checks or Knowledge checks.

Admittedly, the effect of getting mild out-of-combat benefits isn't enough to make, say, a fighter not dump Cha... but it's enough to make the higher Cha characters feel their benefit.

Besides, as someone else pointed out, making Cha better so it's meaningful to non-cha classes is like making Str better so it's meaningful to casters.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
InsertNameHere 10-13-06, 11:39 AM	I had an idea recently that would make Charisma matter while allowing me to keep my puzzles confusing: Allow Charisma checks as DM hints similar to a Knowledge check. Yes, it's more of an Intellegence/Luck type thing, but I think it works well. For example, say the players have to find the one room that's not moving in a house with rearranging rooms. A Charisma check might give them the hints to map the house or place a 10-foot pole in a doorway.
RobbyPants 10-13-06, 11:47 AM	I would lean more toward Int (knowledge and reasoning), or maybe Wis (intuition and perception). Cha has always struck me as more of a force of will type thing, having very little to do with cognative thought, and more to do with intra-personal relationships and social dealings. I tend to think of high Int = booksmart and high Wis = clever
InsertNameHere 10-13-06, 11:51 AM	I would lean more toward Int (knowledge and reasoning), or maybe Wis (intuition and perception). Cha has always struck me as more of a force of will type thing, having very little to do with cognative thought, and more to do with intra-personal relationships and social dealings. I tend to think of high Int = booksmart and high Wis = clever Yeah, I realize that it's hard to justify this flavor-wise. Mostly an excuse to have Cha do something.
RobbyPants 10-13-06, 12:03 PM	Yeah, I realize that it's hard to justify this flavor-wise. Mostly an excuse to have Cha do something. It does - but just mostly in intra-personal relationships and social situations. There are some game effects in combat for Cha: Feinting - a good way for a rogue to get in a melee sneack attack when he can't flank. - uses Bluff. Demorilizing opponents (Samurai have a better version of this - staredown). - uses Intimidate.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-13-06, 01:01 PM	On the topic of charisma not having enough mechanical functions, I let my players add their charisma modifier to action points gained per lvl.
Pellanor 10-13-06, 03:27 PM	While we're at it, why not make Str govern your Hint checks, I mean it applies just as well, right? As always when I see a post like this, I must point out: Charaisma is an All or Nothing stat. No fighter will boost his Cha, regardless of what benefits you associate with it, unless he's doing so for RP reasons rather than mechanical reasons. If you happen to make a change where Cha is so good that Fighters want to boost their Cha score, then Sorcerers and other Cha based classes will be so horribly overpowered (as if they weren't the most synergetic already) that it would make no sense (mechanically) to play anything but. Look at it this way: Almost all sorcerers dump Strength. Allmost all Fighters dump Charisma. Boosting Cha to the point were Fighters want to put points/good rolls into it would be the same as boosting Str to the point where Sorcerers want to put points/good rolls into it. Back to hints: I personally don't like them. If my character has ranks in Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) then I expect to be able to make a skill check to be able to figure out some aspect of a moving rooms puzzle. However if my character doesn't have that knowledge, then I should have to brute force my way through the puzzle, just as my character would.
X-Codes 10-14-06, 01:26 AM	Back to hints: I personally don't like them. If my character has ranks in Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) then I expect to be able to make a skill check to be able to figure out some aspect of a moving rooms puzzle. However if my character doesn't have that knowledge, then I should have to brute force my way through the puzzle, just as my character would. They have some redeeming value. They can act as the uncharacteristic "Moment of Clarity" that the big, dumb brute has in various TV shows where he actually comes up with a good plan or has the right idea, etc. Besides, with the right support Intimidate can become a very powerful skill. In fact, it already is with ToB.
OneWinged4ngel 10-17-06, 02:42 AM	Yeah, I realize that it's hard to justify this flavor-wise. Mostly an excuse to have Cha do something. Why not make Cha do something relevant flavorwise? Like affect action point use.
questionc 10-17-06, 07:53 PM	Honestly, the best cure for charisma's 'uselessness' is to just use skill checks. I like keeping the dice rolling, so in non-combat situations I throw out skill checks at the players. I've found that outside combat, all the checks are pretty much charisma-based skill checks or Knowledge checks. Admittedly, the effect of getting mild out-of-combat benefits isn't enough to make, say, a fighter not dump Cha... but it's enough to make the higher Cha characters feel their benefit. Besides, as someone else pointed out, making Cha better so it's meaningful to non-cha classes is like making Str better so it's meaningful to casters.